Talk:Pitchfork (website)

I removed the statement that the co-editor is "Scott Colton." Pitchfork's staff page makes no mention of this person, and the editor's other edits have been weighted toward vandalism. Joyous 23:26, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

This article has bizarrely been the subject of sporadic vandalism for quite some time now. Be ruthless in removing anything that's even halfway suspect. Everyking 01:42, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pitchfork has a very biased slant; they like going against the grain to make their opinions stand out. But of course, if a band is universally acclaimed (like The Arcade Fire) they'll make sure that they jump on the praise bandwagon, so that it won't hurt their reputation. Just compare PF reviews to other credited sources and you'll notice this trend. --Madchester 15:30, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)

Rock journals are inherently biased. That's the point of a unique music publication; what reason would there be for a journal to publish opinions fully expressed elsewhere. As an indie magazine, they favor experimental, innovative material to watered-down mainstream options such as Coldplay; that is the more substantiated trend. I find they're often on the money with this. Your example regarding the Arcade Fire is backwards; PF was one of the first available reviews of the Arcade Fire, and they played a pivotal role in getting the album the exposure that made is such a success to begin with. --Karl

The last section about Pitchfork's slant against mainstream music is just plain wrong. They give higher grades to Britney Spears/etc. and various mainstream rappers than they do many or most independant bands. --B. Phillips 13:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

In indie circles I believe this is generally considered part of Pitchfork's "shtick". This is not to say that one cannot base a coherent body of criticism on appreciating both obscure indie rock, experimental music, and intricately produced pop; but I would agree with the conjecture that they are certainly playing up this synergy specifically to make their collective opinion more notorious. And what the hell, I sure dig it. Decklin 17:34, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

This page is a little biased. There is no credit in half the text being dedicated to criticisms, most of which seem to be conjecture anyway. Twice on the page, there are links to parody sites that offer nothing in the way of the "contrary opinion" we should expect from a good "criticism" section; their presence seems only to reflect the personal opinion of the contributer. Perhaps more importantly, the writing of this section is distinctly inferior to the first section. I do not see this section as necessary, but if it were, I see little to be salvaged from it by the next incarnation. There is hence no clear reason to keep this section. --Karl

You might be right. Anyway, for anyone's who's interested here's the old text: (Husky 16:49, 31 August 2005 (UTC))

Pitchfork has been criticised for what some consider an elitist approach to music, and a narrow focus on bands and genres (Something Awful's parody notes Pitchfork's enthusiasm for Radiohead). Their publication of David Cross's somewhat critical article suggests an awareness and acceptance of this reputation. Pitchfork has also taken criticism for the exactness of its 100-point rating scale (a decimal is added to the more traditional 1-10 grading scale), as well as the site's general editorial extremity: When the site loves an artist, it tends to fawn; when it dislikes an artist, it holds them at a level of contempt that could be considered outright cruel. Additionally, Pitchfork's slant towards independent music is perceived by many to be unfair, as reviews of albums by mainstream artists are frequently lambasted by the site even when the consensus from other publications is that said albums are of high quality. On the other end of the spectrum Pitchfork is considered rockistic, and favouring the 'indie mainstream' compared to fanzines and other smaller publications.

This page is being unfairly attacked

I'm concerned that there's a large initiative to keep this page negative. I have tried to mitigate the amount of criticism posted on the page.

Just look at the links on the page. One goes to the pitchfork site, but the following 3 are all parody sites (including 2 that are almost identical pages). There's no reason to provide this much access to dissenting opinion, considering the article itself is so short.

The final paragraph had the line: "They are also criticized for giving harsh reviews of widely respected albums while favoring certain bands to a hyperbolic extent (most infamously Radiohead)." I find the inclusion of this observation to be absurd. The site is dedicated to album reviews and is thus inherently opinionated. Citing a wide range of opinion is an illigitimate criticism and detracts from the quality of this article.

To whomever is so committed to maintaining ample criticism within this article, please try to come up with something a little more elaborate and helpful than what has been produced thus far.

I am removing the criticism section (as I have done before) because it is little more than another example of the same recurring quality problems visible in past incarnations. I have no personal agenda to pursue; I am not associated with, beholden to, or even a fan of the pitcfork media site. I merely wish to see this wiki page not be a forum for highly opinionated criticism of the site. Gyllstromk 16:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should try to get a less POV rewrite of the section. I do think there should be a 'criticism' section, Pitchfork is criticed regularly for being too 'snobby', so to speak. But sections like there were before are indeed too critical.

Husky 23:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I suspect that the page is unfairly positive if anything; I'm coming from the article on The Arcade Fire, where there have been a suspicious number of references to Pitchfork and how they helped the band succeed, as well as a baffling anonymous edit that added one of Pitchfork's writers to the list of band members. I think that writers from Pitchfork Media are using Wikipedia for a PR campaign, and we need to counteract it. rspeer 08:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I highly doubt it. If you'd take the time to browse the history of this article, you'll see exactly what the neutrality issues were. The article for the Arcade Fire should have no bearing on the appropriateness of this page. I think pitchforkmedia is popular enough that an injection of pro-pitchfork propoganda in wikipedia for mroe PR would be absurd. Gyllstromk 16:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Criticism (again)

User:172.162.231.232 added a large section to this article, and i think his/her additions are generally good, but a 'criticism' section was also added which is, unfortunately, again quite POV. I removed it to the talk page and sended a message to the user, maybe we can try to write a better one. Husky 14:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed text:

Pitchfork is both highly read and highly criticized. Its opinions are often controversial among music fans, especially on Internet message boards and blogs. The site's decimal ratings system and exhaustive lists are sometimes seen as irrationally reasoned or silly. Its contributors' writing styles have been mocked by some for being, among other things, show-offy and solipsistic; poor ripoffs of Lester Bangs; overreliant on namedropping obscure bands and nebulous genre names; laughably over the top in their praise and their metaphors; and simply bad, pretentious writing. Pitchfork readers rarely call its writers uninformed, but they sometimes complain that the reviewer spends so much time trying to make the review creative that they fail to get the essence of the music across. These stereotypical criticisms of Pitchfork writing, although often directed at the entire site, generally only apply to certain writers on the staff. The word "hipster" is often used to describe Pitchfork writers' tastes and their sometimes offhandedly in-the-know writing style. Buzzwords, slang, and references to lesser known bands tend to make some reviews impenetrable to the uninitiated.

Pitchfork has also been attacked as a biased source due to its indie rock focus, although Pitchfork itself has never claimed to be objective. For example, while increasingly open to mainstream hip-hop and chart pop, which are now reviewed regularly, it has been accused of being unfairly dismissive of mainstream rock artists and unfairly harsh toward underground hip-hop. Some say Pitchfork at various times has focused on hyping and grade-inflating specific scenes such as NYC-based indie rock, "freak-folk," and dance-punk to the detriment of its wider ranging music coverage in all genres.

Critics of the site tend not to assert that Pitchfork is "rockist" in the traditional sense (although most of its writers come initially from a rock background), but rather that it intentionally tailors its opinions in order to retain a cutting edge image, choosing either to champion music or to criticize it in a highly inconsistent way as much dependent on whim, knee-jerk reaction, or social climate as on the quality of the music itself.

For example, there have also been criticisms lately that Pitchfork year-end and best-of-decade lists do not reflect the true sum of all contributions to them but are similarly tailored and pandering. It has been asserted that 2003 and 2004 polls declaring albums by The Rapture and the Arcade Fire, respectively, to be the best of those years, were rigged by editors in order to continue building the site's own popularity along with that of those bands. Some point as proof to the Rapture's very low position and the Arcade Fire's position dozens of places lower in the "Best Albums of 2000-2004," one month later than the 2004 poll and voted on by largely the same writers. Presumably, in the reasoning of these critics, the later 2000-2004 poll either was not rigged or was rigged to emphasize different, then-trendier bands.

Regardless of passing trends, Pitchfork's continuing devotion to certain sacred cows of indie rock is well documented. After a while, readers of the site tend to enjoy it because of, rather than in spite of, its systemic bias. Many Pitchfork critics have simply moved on from the site as they grew out of its cherished assumptions. The layout change that makes pages take days to load didn't help either. :(

Thank God Pitchfork helped contribute to the reputation of such underground unknown acts as Brian Wilson and Miles Davis! Those two probably would have wallowed in insignifica t'were not for the indie funsters.

I added that section. True, the criticism section being so large could be seen as POV, but I added it because the first half of the article (History) appeared incredibly biased, not so much in what it says but in the wording. It comes off like Pitchfork editors or staffers came here and wrote it in their own words so as to advertise the site, one of those problems you sometimes find in Wikipedia. It sounds like a press release. There is tons of irrelevant but very positive sounding stuff in it.

I think the criticism of the site is essential to any article about it (much more essential than a history of when Ryan Schreiber did what-- who cares), even if the section needs to be reduced and made more specific. If we're going to explain how Pitchfork is becoming increasingly influential, as it is, we can't leave out the criticisms of it that always echo up. Particularly because Pitchfork itself is only based online, even if negative opinions are largely confined to blogs, message boards and such, they are still very relevant. Furthermore, besides that last couple paragraphs which were overzealous and a bit of a joke, I don't think my criticism paragraphs create an unfairly negative picture in reader's minds about the site; I don't even think the site's own writers or editors would contest them, as they seem to revel in being widely talked about, whether in positive or negative terms. Without the criticism section, or at least a couple sentences summing it up, people might not get an idea what could be the least bit controversial about a site that does so much in popularizing indie music. But the fact remains, many do take the site with many grains of salt for reasons I've stated, or even look with disdain on it. Just as an article on evolution is going to mention the controversy it causes, however above debate it is from a scientific perspective, so should an article on this site mention criticisms of it, however influential it is. In fact, BECAUSE of how influential it is. If we need more sourcing, that I understand, but the ideas need to stay. -A.

I do not disagree that there should be a criticism section, i just think the one you provided was too POV. A sentence like

Its contributors' writing styles have been mocked by some for being, among other things, show-offy  
and solipsistic; poor ripoffs of Lester Bangs; overreliant on namedropping obscure bands and 
nebulous genre names; laughably over the top in their praise and their metaphors; and simply bad, 
pretentious writing

Is not in the style articles on Wikipedia should be written. If you want to rewrite your contribution, you could try reading the policy at WP:NPOV. Husky 18:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

'Catchprases'

I removed these 'catchprases', added by User:86.31.50.100.

* "lol trad-hop amirite?"
* "Why are you crying?"
* "You want special sauce with that boss?"
* "Outlay Josey Wells? Morelike Outlay Gaysey Wells, amirite?"
* "Stoves!"

Husky 00:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed sentences by

I removed these sentences by User:Meebles.

Pitchfork is most popular with college students and the urban subculture known as hipsters.
The  site has often faced criticism for what some readers see as self-indulgent and 
impenetrable prose. 

Although 'college students' and 'hipsters' would seem to be the target audience, we haven't got any source to veryify that from. File:Huskyeye.jpg Husky ^{(talk page)} 10:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

10 Category relevant?

I question the relevancy of the 10.0 category. There is no explanation in the text for why this appears, and it seems to break the otherwise nice flow and conciseness of the article. I suppose it might serve as a representation for the site's preferences, but, as I said, this is not explained in the article. Furthermore, they provide top 10/50 lists at the end of each year, which actually represent a collection of all the staff writer's opinions (and not just 1, in the case of the 10 ratings). Please share your thoughts on this subject. Gyllstromk 15:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it's quite relevant. I've always been looking for a list that summons up all 10 ratings by Pitchfork. We might move it to a seperate article if it becomes too long though. File:Huskyeye.jpg Husky ^{(talk page)} 22:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about relevance, but to me, it's interesting and stuff. Maybe it doesn't belong here though. Maybe there could be a page listing the albums given "perfect" scores by a few popular sites, to include 5 star ratings by rolling stone and 5 star ratings by AMG along with 10.0 ratings by pitchfork? But I guess that might be a bit crufty. There definately should be links to the yearly top-whatever lists. --Qirex 13:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

No way is this relevant. If people want to find the 10.0 ratings they can go to Pitchfork.com and search for 10.0 reviews. Links shouldn't be given for year end lists either. The current trends in Pitchfork taste should have no relevance upon the article, unless Pitchfork suddenly changes the musical genres it reviews. Really, people can find this information themselves. Get rid of this. --Locatelli 21:56, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, i've been searching for this list on Pitchfork. It isn't there, you can't search by ratings on Pitchfork, which makes such as list useful IMHO. File:Huskyeye.jpg Husky ^{(talk page)} 00:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. Try entering "10.0" into the search criteria at Pitchfork under the "Reviews" search category. And even if that trick didn't let you see all the 10.0 reviews, this list still has no relevance to the article. What is Wikipedia trying to do with this information? It seems like an advertisement of what Pitchfork likes rather than anything useful. If the list is here only to give an indication as to Pitchfork's tastes, the list is redundant as such information is already in the main article. Furthermore, it can be gleaned from a visit to the website. This list is trivial and it is cruft.--Locatelli 15:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Restore the 10.0 list

The list of 10.0 ratings was by far the most informative and useful aspect of the Pitchfork Media entry. To me, removing it seems like censorship. Your argument that the artistic flow of the article was hindered by something appearing *at the end of the main body* is absurd. I want information, not an entry that pleases you.

You said you removed it because noone had a counterargument. Well, here is your counterargument: some of us would rather it be there.

That was quick. 171.65.18.1519, you obviously seem very passionate about this issue. I'm not interested in an edit war, however, to counterpoint your argument I'll say some of us don't want it there. Secondly, I never made the argument about "artistic flow," but it does seem tacked on at the end without much explanation. Furthermore, if you go to other articles about music criticism websites and magazines (I checked the articles for Stylus, Rolling Stone, and Spin), there is no analogous list of Greatest Hits or Four Star Albums or whatnot. Why should Pitchfork's be different? Honestly, your claims of censorship are disingenuous at best. I respect Pitchfork, but I don't think it is censorship to prevent a Wikipedia article from becoming an advertisement for the tastes of another website, particularly if said article is given this privilige above other articles. Now, these arguments don't mean the list should be eliminated completely. Another user above this suggested making a separate article with a link to this new article in the Pitchfork Article proper. I'd be willing to do that once I have some time, or you or someone else can do it sooner. I will do this soon, however, if it is not done by someone else, and I'll do it not only because it pleases me, but because it seems more in keeping with what I know of Wikipedia. --Locatelli 21:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's vote about it (see right beneath here). File:Huskyeye.jpg Husky ^{(talk page)} 23:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

• Reading your reply, Locatelli, and rereading my posting, I apologize for being snippy this morning. The comment about artistry versus censorship was motivated by this line:

"and it seems to break the otherwise nice flow and conciseness of the article" But I now see you did not write that. Yes, I see there are numerous opinions on both sides.

For me, the most important way to gague a review site is to see if you agree with them. The albums they give their highest ratings to constitute the perfect benchmark, I think. (For example, I've purchased several albums based on Rolling Stone giving them five stars, and been disappointed.)

Linking to the top ten list in another article is fine with me, although my vote is that it belongs here.

Vote on the 10.0 section

What should happen with the current '10.0 Ratings' section on the Pitchfork Media article?

Keep it where it is

• File:Huskyeye.jpg. Husky ^{(talk page)} 23:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC). We might move it to a seperate article if it becomes too long though.

Delete it

• ...

Move to a seperate article linked from the main article

• Just as the Rolling Stones lists have their respective articles, this should be somewhere else too --Locatelli 23:05, 27 January 2006 (UTC)