Talk:Steve Dalkowski

Acknowledgements

Kit Krieger

Portions of the pitching speed section where quoted directly from an post by Kit Kreiger to the SABR-L mailing list. The full text of the quote is here:

Dave Baldwin write about the legendary speed and wildness of Steve

Dalkowski. Many of the stories derive from Pat Jordan's writings more than 30 years ago. I never had the privilege to see Dalkowski pitch but remember that his arm was a frequent topic of conversation in my clubhouse when I was the visiting clubhouse attendant for the Vancouver Mounties of the Pacific Coast League from 1967-69. I remember a conversation about ten years later with Andy Etchebarren, who caught Dalkowski when they both played with Elmira in the Eastern League in 1962. I started the conversation and repeated some of the stories I had read, including the one that Dalkowski had once hit a batter in the on-deck circle. Etchebarren said that Dalkowski was not tough to catch. He described his fastball as "light". He also remarked that Dalkowski's wildness was high and low (mostly high) and not inside an outside. He said that Dalkowski had trouble because his ball had so much upward movement and not because he couldn't come within range of home plate. I know that the question of whether a fastball can rise en route from the pitchers hand to home plate is of some dispute among people with more knowledge of physics than this teachers' union president. The new biography of Koufax has some commentary on this possibility. I distinctly remember Etchebarren saying that Dalkowski would throw a fastball that looked like it was coming in a knee level, only to see it said past the batter's eyes.

I think that Etchebarren died a couple of years ago. Harry Dunlop, one time Oriole coach and catcher in Ron Necchai's 27-strikeout performance in Bristol, VA is still alive. He caught Dalkowski and should be contacted.

Kit Krieger

Cubaball Tours 4772 Narvaez Drive Vancouver, BC Canada V6L 2J2

tel: 604-266-4664 e-mail: kkrieger@bctf.ca

My thanks go to Kit for allowing us to use this. Zerbey 21:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Text of e-mail

Baseball Hall of Fame

My thanks go to Bill Burdick of the Baseball Hall of Fame Library for allowing us to use their picture. This is the only high quality picture of Dalkowski that we have been able to find, does anyone have a colour picture? Zerbey 05:08, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Text of e-mail

There's a photo of Dalkowski - a medium closeup, with his arms over his head - while with Rochester, in The Minor League Register (1994, Baseball America); all the book's photos are B&W (even the recent ones), so the original may have been in color. The photo citation is Lloyd E. Klos, Rochester Times Union. MisfitToys 21:46, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if they'd license us to use it for free since Wikipedia is trying to move away from using Copyrighted images. Do you have the publisher information? Zerbey 22:45, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Help requested

Todo list

• This article should be 100% accurate now, but there's a possibility we missed something
• Colour photograph and a more Recent picture needed
• Date of Birth needed -already added
• More about early life needed

Zerbey 17:54, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Where should Stockton disambiguate to? Should that be Stockton, California? SWAdair | Talk 09:38, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Almost certainly yes, per [1] ("In 1960 at Stockton on the California League, Dalkowski struck out 19 and limited Reno to four hits but walked nine and lost 8-3.") --Arcadian 12:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

18 feet?

The story of Dalkowski knocking an Umpire back 5 metres with a pitch sound like an exageration to me. He was a fast pitcher, but he wasn't Superman. I am not going to remove this, as I cannot disprove it, but could someone please cite a source for this fact. Rje 00:19, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

1938 or 1939?

Article states 1939, category states 1938. Which is it? Doovinator 01:46, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dementia

"Dementia" is a fairly broad term. I know this is wild speculation, but does anyone know if he might have Wernicke's encephalopathy? The Wikipedia article on it is pretty good, thanks to the diligent cognitive science enthusiasts.--Joel 01:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pitching speed question

Nice article, but I have a question. The article says, "his fastball baseball pitch may have travelled as much as 110 mph (177 km/h)," is that faster than other pitchers? If so by how much? The speed sounds very fast, but I don't get a context for this speed from the sentence. I don't know if other pitches are up around that level or not, I need something to put the speed in context I guess. Calicocat 05:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is a great deal of dispute about the fastest pitch ever because radar guns are not 100% reliable. I have added Nolan Ryan's mark of 100.9mph to the article, I know this is disputed but it is the most widely quoted and it is recognised by the Guinness Book of Records. The fastest measured pitch I have ever heard of is 103mph by Mark Wohlers, although that was in a spring training sessio. I hope this helps. Rje 06:03, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Another problem with radar is that the ball is measured in a very tight area by the radar gun. If a pitcher is a bit wild the reading will be more off than if the pitch is right down the middle, but pitches right down the middle tend to be more in control and thus slower than the wilder ones. Doovinator 06:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What do averge pros clock out to? How much faster than average is Dalkowski?... I guess I'm looking for some good examples to help me better grasp this. Maybe somewhere it would be helpful to gives examples of pitches speeds seen in Farm teams and semi-pros and maybe mention the speeds achieved by some of players in the national little league teams...that kind thing. I'm not nit picking on this just curious. Calicocat 06:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have added a page to the "Online References" section that has a long, detailed and very well documented list of the fastest measured pitches in baseball history. This, while not clearing up matters in the article itself, should provide enough further reading to put the claims about his pitching speed into context. 71.182.136.214 (talk) 04:16, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

The fastest pitchers have always thrown around 100mph, this has not changed in decades. An average pitcher is probably closer to 93-5mph. I think the sheer fact that this guy is meant to have thrown 10mph faster than anyone, ever, is mindblowing. Although Doovinator is right with the radar gun thing, most of the super-fast pitchers are in the minor leagues because they simply cannot control their pitches. Speed is a great thing to have, but it is worthless without control (that's why Randy Johnson is so good).

Actually hard throwers, throw anywhere from 93-95mph and 95+ mph is the elite club. Most closers throw 95+. The average pro fastball is actually between 88-90mph.

Speed is a great thing to have and yes it is worthless without control but Randy Johnson is not good for those 2 reasons. He also is 6'10 and releases the ball much closer than the average pro. pitcher so the ball is on you even quicker, he hides the ball well from start to release. He also has a great slider that he can control and his fastball is 95+ with good movement.

All big league hitters gear for the hard stuff but "life" (a ball sinking and running) makes the ball far harder to hit. A 100+ straight fastball is far easier for a pro hitter to hit than a 90+ fastball with great movement.

As for the article: I honestly think that mentioning how far beyond anybody he is meant to have been is enough. Too many statistice will get in the way of what is a fascinating story in my opinion. Rje 06:44, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

It has probably been looked into before, but is there any film or video footage of this person pitching? If the frame rate of the video source was known, it would be a simple matter to measure the time between the ball leaving the bowler's hand and the batter swinging his bat (especially if there was matching, original sound; and the distance from the bat and the microphone was known so as to account for the fractional delay).-Ashley Pomeroy 09:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be plenty of knowledgeable observers who state that he was the fastest pitcher they ever saw. They presumably know what they were talking about, even though we can never prove what the radar gun might have said. 14:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

pitching speed confusion

This needs to be looked at a little more close. Nolan Ryan was clocked at 100.9 early in his career. This was before they used the famous Juggs Radar Guns. They used a "Ray Gun" back then. This means if Nolan Ryan would have been clocked on a "Juggs Gun" of today he would have hit anywhere from 103-106 mph on the Jugss System.

Mark Wohlers hit 103 on a Juggs gun this means he would have been clocked at 98-100 mph on a Ray gun. Which is the type of radar they used to clock Ryan in the 1970's. So Nolan Ryan threw just a little harder than Wohlers.

What is the difference. The Ray gun reads the speed somewhere around the plate and the catchers mit as it naturally slows. The Juggs gun reads the ball out of the pitchers hand at its peak velocity.

This statement has no place in an encyclopedia: "Had he been clocked at the 100+ he was purportedly capable of, he could have beaten the current record holder Nolan Ryan, whose pitch of 100.9 mph set in 1974 is listed in the Guinness Book of Records."

"Had he been clocked at the 100+ he was purportedly capable of, he could have beaten the current record holder Nolan Ryan, whose pitch of 100.9 mph set in 1974 is listed in the Guinness Book of Records." (emphasis mine)

Could you clarify what is wrong with this sentance. I tried to make it as clear as possible that we are not claiming he could definitely pitch at this speed, but that it is believed he could. How could we improve this sentance to make it less ambiguous?. Zerbey 16:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

there is no reason for the sentence; it needn't be improved, but rather should be removed. it tries to give through-the-cracks credence to a mere allegation. the entire subject of how fast he's said to have thrown is borderline suspect in the article, and one might just as well extend the fantasy to all the things that "could" have happened. the statement is a tautology; the equivalent of saying, "If he had beaten the current record holder Nolan Ryan, he would have beaten the current record holder Nolan Ryan." however, if it's insisted that the statement remain, it has more problems: 100.9 is over 100 (100+), so the statement as it's written is false. a clocked 100+ not greater than 100.9 could not beat 100.9. unless, at minimum, somebody wants to argue that humans are able to measure speed as accurately as implied in the article, the unverified claims of him being a super-fast pitcher should be downplayed, and all the woulda-coulda-shoulda statements removed from the article. this is an encyclopedia, not a place to continue rumors which may be entirely false (based on what's presented so far in the article). SaltyPig 17:24, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

the article needs to make up its mind; he either threw a certain speed or we don't know. if we don't know, then all claims such as this must be removed: "Meanwhile, the Baseball Almanac claims Mark Wohlers as the fastest pitcher with a 103 mph pitch that was thrown during spring training in 1995. Once again, Dalkowski's pitches could have topped even this speed."

says who? certainly not the earlier part of the same article. what speed did he pitch? he threw above a certain speed or he didn't. "Once again, Dalkowski's pitches could have topped even this speed" is breathless fan talk, and is not encyclopedic. it doesn't agree with the same article, which earlier states: "As no radar gun or other device was available to precisely measure the speed of his pitches, the actual top speed of his pitches remains unknown." and "Most observers agree that he threw at least 100 miles an hour (160 km/h). Radar guns, which are routinely used today, did not exist when Dalkowski was playing, so no evidence beyond the anecdotal supporting this kind of velocity exists."

if "the actual top speed of his pitches remains unknown", then how can an encyclopedia make the claim that "Dalkowski's pitches could have topped even this speed"?

Same with these statements, do you want to have a stab at rewriting it to make it clearer? I thought I had made it pretty clear but I am very open to critiscm :-D Perhaps we need to add another paragraph making it crystal clear that although many sources (dozens in fact) claim a certain speed for Dalkowski there is no definite proof. Zerbey 16:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

there's no need to say at all what these alleged speeds "could have" done. if absolutely necessary, put in the allegations, and put in what the fastest verified record is. people can do the math and the projections quite easily. no need to pile on when the information is mere rumor. SaltyPig 17:24, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

further, the assertion that someone "discovered that Dalkowski had an IQ of only 60" cannot be made based upon him being handed some test. he might not have taken it seriously. it is neither objective nor factual. SaltyPig 09:45, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Again, this needs reworded if it is a cause of confusion. I'll work on that. Zerbey 16:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it should just state facts, however you want to word them (if they're true): he was given an IQ test. the score was 60. based on this score, so-and-so concluded blah blah blah. SaltyPig 17:24, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Also take a read of the sources quoted (in particular Baseball Almanac), they have a lot of discussion on Dalkowski's speed. Zerbey 16:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Legend has it that Nolan Ryan pitched 117mph in high school. I agree that this statement shouldn't be in the article. --Alterego 16:59, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

OK I did some rewriting, how does it read now? Zerbey 18:35, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

much better on the pitching part. the IQ mod, however, merely went vague. it doesn't address the point i made. returning a score of 60 on an IQ test doesn't mean the subject has a below-average IQ; it only means the score was below average. i can take an IQ test and provide a score of 60, and i can take a test and provide a score over 100 (i hope!). SaltyPig 18:50, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

0.11 ERA?

for the last 57 innings, he struck out 110, walked 11 and had an ERA of only 0.11

I've seen this quoted before, but I never thought to do the math on it. Turns out, you can't pitch 57 innings and have an ERA of 0.11 -- that would mean Dalkowski gave up seven-tenths of an earned run! (Maybe they meant 1 ER in 57 IP, for an ERA of 0.16.)

Must have missed this during peer review. You're right, this simply does not compute. Zerbey 04:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Scientists contend"?

Scientists contend that the theoretical maximum speed that a pitcher can throw is around 100 mph. Beyond that the pitcher would cause himself a serious injury.

Can someone please give a reference for this statement? I'm curious as to how this determination was made, and by whom. —Steven G. Johnson 00:32, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

• The answer is here. --Arcadian 00:36, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statistics

Everything in the stat table (including teams, leagues, league-leading totals) can be sourced to the Baseball America Minor League Register, though the format makes it difficult to decide where to put the tag (it shouldn't be in the section header). MisfitToys 21:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Just put it in at the bottom? Something like "Source: Minor League Register" with a footnote containing a link to their web site. I wonder if I can find his MLB spring training stats also. Zerbey 01:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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