Talk:Romanichal

This article was nominated for deletion on 22/2/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Misleading information removed

Two facts caught my attention and made me remove a misleading and unproven information on this article (regarding Elvis Presley supposed Romanichal background):

- The provided reference concerns to Michael Caine ancestry and not Elvis ancestry.
- There was no valid and well-accepted reference supporting the claim of Elvis Romanichal ancestry in the article.

Since the citation failed to meet validity criteria to be taken into account, I removed Elvis Presley name from the section that mentions people with Romanichal ancestry.

Please, don't undo the modification unless clear and valid references surfaces. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

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Are Romnichal ethnic Gypsies or simply considered Gypsies because of their way of life. I have seen images of Romnichal, never met one in person, and they do not look of Indian origin as do the Gypsies of Spain and the Balkans.--Burgas00 11:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, british-born Rom are genetically Rom, altho typically, visually leaning heavily towards fair-skinned. It may be worth pointing out that Romnichal (Romani Chal - Romany fellow) is Masculine, and Romnichel (Romani Chi/Chel - Romany girl) is feminine. Along which thread, I'm curious as to the source of the term 'Romnichal'? I've only ever heard/used the name Rom, or Sons & Daughters of Rome (Romany Chals and Romany Chies). As far as my (very limited) grasp of romanes, rom'ni chel is phonetic rather than a title. --Shaun 01:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

A Good reference for the family names (ancesterally 'tribes', current-day 'families' - please, not 'clan') is Romano Lavo-Lil, by George Borrow, 1844 (the 1905 edition of which is freely available from project gutenberg). It gives Hearne (lit. 'hairy fellow'), Stanley (from Stony Lea, geographical), Lovel (lit. 'amiable'), Boswell, Lee (lit. 'leek' or 'onion'), and Carter/Cartwright/Cooper - literally a Cart Fixer. The later, along with Miller (flour-fellow) and Smith (horseshoe-fellow) aren't anecdotal as the English also adopted professions as surnames at a similar stage. However; Stanley, Smith, Boswell, Cooper and Lee were very prominent families within the history of English Rom (and all outlined within same said source).

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Romanichal

Many true Romanichal from the families such as Lee, Cooper and Boswell are very dark in appearance but nowadays what tends to happen is many other British travelling groups try and go under the Romani banner and give a false impression. The other problem is with the title 'Gypsy' as every travelling people gets branded as gypsy and it disguises the distinction betweens the different groups. The proper word should be "travellers" such as Irish traveller or showground traveller or Romani traveller. Not all Romanichal travel and Romani is a racial type and not a word to be associated to all travelling people.

True Roms know who is Romani by their Nav (pronounced Nahv which is Romani for name). The real truth it seems is that most travellers in the UK are actually of a European origin such as Irish and Scottish travellers, Show people, circus people and a large number come from the east end of London who took to living in caravans and tents during the summer to supply the much needed work force required for the farms of Kent and Sussex that fed London. The many different origins can be seen in the differences in appearance to some of the families.

At the turn of the 1900's it becoming very much harder to travel and the British councils forced all travelling groups to stay on council sites putting the many different groups together. There is now a majorly mixed breed travelling people who speak a mixed language.

Some families such as some Lees, Coopers and Boswells have been stricter with their laws of marrying out the Romani group and are still dark in appearance where as some others have not been so strict and can be quite fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Word for thought

Romnichals are consider gypsies because they are of gypsy desent that immigraded to The British Isle expecially England , Ireland, & some in scotland and do use the gypsy language Romnes ok just telling you

chav

Since Wikipedia itself states that Romanichals and what you must call "regular gypsies" are the same (see romanichal), there's no need to redeclare it. And yes, Romanichals and "gypsies" are the same people and they call themselves Roma people and not "gypsies". --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 16:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

History

I made a History section with info from here. For the first part, I used the word Romani(es), as in the acception of Ian Hancock, that is politically correct for naming any Romani groups (since all use this as adjective when describing the personal culture, be they Roma, Romnichals, Kale, Sinte) and after the crystalization of the Romnichal group I used this name.Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 10:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Good stuff... I thought this entry could do with a bit of work, particularly when I saw that it had been recommended for deletion as a potential hoax(!), but I've been pretty busy in real life. Dinlo juk 12:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Was Charlie Chaplin's mother a Romnichal?

It says so here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.245.218 (talk) 00:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, she was a member of the Romanichal Smiths. In fact, Charlie Chaplin himself tried to spend time with Romanichals, and his affinity towards them influenced his acting career, too. For example, it was out of sympathy for the Romani people that he mocked Hitler in The Great Dictator. --Kuaichik (talk) 00:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The term 'sedentary'?

Is used throughout to distinguish a contrast from a life on the move. Surely static or settled would be better as I believe sedentary to mean sitting rather than standing? Jatrius (talk) 10:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

I've tagged the legislation section as it could do with a bit more on the government's POV of legislation - right now it seems very anti-gov. Paulbrock (talk) 13:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Anglocentrism

Is this article about English Romanies or not? It can't make up its mind on this matter as it occasionally mentions Scotland and Wales too.--MacRusgail (talk) 14:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it should be! The Romanichals are exclusively English, as far as I know. "Scottish Romanichal" and "Welsh Romanichal" sound like oxymorons, at least to me :)

I'm not sure what's up with the references to Scotland and Wales... --Kuaichik (talk) 00:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know much about the subject, but I've hear the term romanichal used alonside manouche in France... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrcolyer (talk • contribs) 16:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Explaining the words Didikai & Pikey

I am from a Romani family and I was shocked to come on Wikipedia and notice Gaje / Gorja (non-Romani) writers presenting incorrect facts about our heritage.

Under the title 'diddkoi' it says that this is a word we use for non-Romani travellers which all true Romanichals will know is wrong.

Didikai (as we now usually spell it) is a word meaning mix bloods and Pikey is a word we use for either non-Romani travellers or Romanis that have been expelled from the tribe.

Move to Romanichal

I think this page should be moved to Romanichal, which is more popular and probably more accurate.AKoan (talk) 13:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

quick googling confirms this. This probably isn't a big deal. --dab (𒁳) 09:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

it turns out that, as by the article's own admission, "Romanichal" is a neologism, and per WP:NAME the article should probably reside at English Romanies instead. --dab (𒁳) 09:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that is that new. It completely replaced "Kale", which was the designation that they historical used. AKoan (talk) 10:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Misleading infobox

The claims that famous celebrities are English Romanies (in the strict sense of the term) have already been criticized by professional journalists (the next best thing to academics) and especially by David Altheer (researcher on gypsy culture) as misleading: see Spiked-Online & Dailymail. Ignoring this serious criticism in the article is blatantly POV. In my opinion, encyclopedias must be purely descriptive and should not be related to any kind of ethnic pride or role-model promotion. But even in the case that one is to seek those goals via WP, the propagation of anecdotes is not a legitimate way to do it. Here is a suitable quote by Altheer: "There are plenty of potential role models for gipsies who are quite happy to put themselves up as such. I object to these myths being propagated among schoolchildren when the idea is to be educating them about gipsies." --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't had the time to pay much attention to this article, but as far as I know only Elvis Presley's ancestry is anecdotally. You can remove him if you want. Kenshin (talk) 10:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Opre Rom, I dont think the article is bias and actually most of the famous people listed are in a cited source from the book We are the Romany people [[1]] ok it says unless a person comes out with their descent its not 100% but it also says most famous people with Romany heritage are reluctant to say such things as they are scared what the non Romany people might do. Also Dr. Ian Hancock who wrote the book is himself a Romany, has done some reserch on the genaeology of Elvis and does conclude that he was of Romany descent. On the point made above in the articles by the Daily Mail. Really when has this paper with its middle English conservative views had anything good to say about my people? The answer is never! I take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Also when the gypsyologist David Altheer says comments like talking about those people ie Michael Caine's family with no traditional gypsy trades. Well my familly 100 years ago were full blooded English Romany who were fishmongers so your trade doesnt mean your ethnic background. Thank youSunset through the clouds (talk) 00:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

People, to being labeled Roma, must reach certain conditions such as mother and father or a serious and well-proven ancestry. Elvis Presley "ancestry" simply is not factual, there's no proof of it, so it must be removed until someone bring something solid to here. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 14:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Prejudicial images of Romanichals being spread abroad

I nearly choked when I read this intro to an article from Russia Today's website: "Love them or loathe them, travelers in Britain are thriving, lapping up laws there to be exploited. With their population increasing dramatically, gypsies in the UK cannot be ignored." And RT prides itself on "quality" journalism... Do such stories count as manifestations of anti-Romanichal, antiziganistic stereotypes? —Zalktis (talk) 13:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Poorly written, self-publicising, patronising, populist drivel! (lest there be a misunderstanding I am referring to the journalist concerned; I wouldn't take it as seriously as she would like) RashersTierney (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

How do Gypsies and travelers make a living?

How do people with no qualifications or permanent residence make an honest living? Can someone find out where they get money from? The odds seem to be stacked against them functioning in society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatcud (talk • contribs) 23:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Usually by small trading and by providing various services for the people besides they live. Kenshin (talk) 10:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thats a good theory Kenshin, however I notice your from Romania - I was thinking about how gypsies made a living in first world countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatcud (talk • contribs) 09:44, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

By chance you're suggesting that "wandering" is the same as "stealing"? Of course Roma people earns a living in the same honest way other peoples do! What do you think, that wandering Roma can't do anything to score honest money? The subject is a little off limits to the article proposal, also, since this isn't a forum.

You wrote "honest living" instead of simply "living", so you're indirectly suggesting "dishonest living" in opposition to simply "do nothing" as result of Roma having no fixed residence or "qualifications". What you mean with "qualifications"? I smell prejudice here too. Read about dr. Ian Hancock and other gypsies with schooling and about the various arts mastered by the Roma people. --Δ Mr. Nighttime Δ (talk) 16:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)