Talk:Indus Valley Civilisation/Archive 1

Template:Wikiproject History of India Template:FormerFA Template:Mainpage date Template:FAOL

I've altered the bit about ninetenth century Aryan theory, partly because the original text implied that these were theories about the collapse of the IVC. But this was before the IVC was discovered! Partly because its acount of the 'laughable' nature of these theories is, I think, simplistic and ahistorical. Paul Barlow

--Good call! Pfaffenblogger

The nature of the Indus civilization's agricultural system is still largely a matter of conjecture. But the matter is important. It is possible that this civilization teaches an important lesson. By means of collective social action and harmonious integration with the natural environment, human beings may have once created considerable economic prosperity without social inequality or political oppression. If this is indeed the Indus civilization's achievement, it is among the most noble in all human history.

Ummm.... This is really not very NPOV, is it? It looks to me like some bizarre blend of communism, environmentalism, syndicalism, etc. inserting its view(s) into something pretending to be scholarly. Call for votes: should this be deleted or reworded? --Michael 02:16 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, get rid of it. Do you have to use "Michael" for a signature? There is a rather more famous user here called user:Michael, and you don't want to be getting confused with him. -- Tim Starling 02:23 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'm reworking it. There's another such paragraph in the conclusion near the end that's going to get the same treatment.

As to my signature, I used "Michael" because that happens to be my name. I reasoned (not unreasonably, I assumed) that if someone wanted the full details of me they could just click. :-) Anyway, I've modified the signature so I don't get associated with a hostile user. --Michael Richter 03:01 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The signature thing is no big deal, it's just annoying. Any edit by User:Michael requires immediate action, so every time someone sees your signature they have to check who you really are. Plus whenever I see such a signature I sigh and roll up my sleeves. I don't know why, it's just an involuntary response. :) -- Tim Starling 03:21 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It's no big deal either way, so I don't care much. I should point out, though, that edits are signed with my full user name: User:Michael T. Richter. It's only in the talk pages with the double-dash, multiple-tilde thing that it said "Michael". --Michael Richter 14:36 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The deleted paragraph would have seemed less non-NPOV, perhaps, if it had been properly contextualized -- the two other earliest civilizations, Egypt and Mesopotamia, were both associated with the rise of extreme social inequality, despotic centralized power, and warfare, all of which have long been seen to be necessary components of civilization formation. The IV Civilization suggests that market formation & regional integration coupled with relative social equality is an alternative path to urbanization & civilization. Perhaps someone could take a stab at expressing this in place of the original paragraph, which richly deserved deletion. User:pfaffenblogger 13 Aug 2003

Pfaffenblogger had a good point here, back in August. Does the present article make this contrast sufficiently clear? (Without crowing about the superior humaneness of IV Civ, of course.) --Wetman 18:43, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A link to Rakhigarhi would seem to be called for, as it appears to be around as big (or bigger) than the other two cities mentioned as being significant. I leave the decision as to where this link should go to someone who knows more about the subject than I (given that I only disovered these guys' existence about an hour ago!) -- Finlay McWalter 00:02, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I already did it. Someone revert me if I've overstated things. -- Finlay McWalter 00:40, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A little background. I'm the author of most of the text here. It was supposed to be published in a multi-volume textbook on the world history of technology, but the company went bankrupt, and I decided to post it here, lest it never be seen. I can quibble with some of the changes that have been made, but I have also been humbled by many of them. I have a Ph.D., but I do not believe that my training truly taught me what a neutral POV could be -- if anything, I was taught that such a thing is impossible. I've learned that it's very well worth striving for. I am very much in your debt.

Links?

Why are there virtually no links to support any of the substance of this Featured Entry? There is one good one. Additional inks to the basic archaeology on which all this is based are sorely needed. Wetman 01:56, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

hey Wetman, it turns out you nominated this article on FAC yourself, on 9 Jan 2004. dab 11:44, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is my first (active) encounter with Wiki, so I'll try the discussion first.

Seems like the section on the IVC's writing is too laconic (it being one of the most exciting enigmas of the history). Starting with the fact that there are (recalling from memory) about 400 symbols used in the inscriptions (which is way too much for a phonetic system and way too few for a ideographic one). I would also mention the attempts at unravaling this puzzle, mainly the Soviet team's attempt and, especially, the book by Asko Parpola "decyphering the Indus script", which, even though disputed, is a major compilation of data (and represents an exciting theory) on the subject.

The baths in the cytadels may have been used for religious purification goals (which may hint at some connection of IVC's cult with Hinduism). A description (or even a photo) of the 3-headed bull sitting in the Yoga posture would have been appropriate in this context.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that one of Thor Heyerdahl's expeditions' goal was to establish whether IVC may have been linked with Mesopotamia by trade or migration.

The IVC is indeed one of the most interesting historical enigmas today, and Thor Heyerdahl's musings in Aku-Aku (I believe it was) about the potential relationship between Indus-Valley markings (there is insufficient evidence to indicate that it was a full-blown alphabet or syllabary) and the Rongo-rongo of Rapa Nui are interesting (in fact, I don't remember the name of it, but there is a whole book written on this very subject by someone else. I read it when I was in high school over 15 years ago and have long since forgotten the name and the author...) All of that said, however, Wikipedia has a fairly strict policy that the Wikipedia is not the place for the publishing of original research. If you find the subject sufficiently interesting, perhaps you should develop a website of your own that deals with it, in as much depth as you can muster, and then link to that site from the IVC page in the wikipedia. :-) TShilo12 05:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Major update

Hi All,

I have spent the past 6 years on research and promotion of ICV, mainly focusing on distribution of materials to media and other serious R&D institutions. I recently noticed Your site and found that much information is missing. I have added my contribution. A breif summary of my contribution is as follows. I'll try to visit often and keep this section up-to-date.

1. Added two new sections called 'Science' and 'Arts' to the Article, focused to the scientific and artistic achievments of the Indus Valley.

2. Moreover, updated the opening summary, 'Overview' and 'Writing' sections with additional information and recent research.

3. Added 2 new links in External links section.

4. Added additional information on Mehrgarh and Lothal sites.

Nov. 20, 2004 - Atla

Hu: Welcome to Wikipedia, Atla, and thank you for your work. It is very interesting work and a very interesting topic. It would seem then that you are user 213.35.128.162, who has made so many edits today. Glad you have chosen an ID. You can sign by typing three or four tildes ~~~~, which will automagically be replaced with a link to your user page when you save the edit. Hu 22:29, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)

Map?

165.21.154.12 07:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC) Featured article without even a map of where it was? --Golbez 06:45, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

To quote: In the early twentieth century, scholars argued that the collapse was so sudden that it must have been caused by foreign conquest, in an "Aryan invasion." This idea was based on the longstanding claim that "superior" Aryan invaders, with their horses and chariots, conquered the "primitive," "dark," and "weak" peoples they encountered in ancient South Asia. Subsequently, these "white" invaders intermingled with the indigenous "dark" population, and grew "weak" ? and therefore ripe for repeated conquest. It was part of a larger, mythological narrative that was used to legitimize the English colonization of the "weak" and "dark" peoples of India. These ideas were developed before the discovery of the Indus civilization itself, when it was assumed that the pre-Aryan Indian populations lived primitive lives. When the civilization was discovered in the 1920s, these arguments were adapted to present the Indo-Aryans as energetic barbarian warriors who overthrew a passive or peaceful urban culture. In the words of the archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler, the Indo-Aryan war god Indra "stands accused" of the

This doesn't strike me as sufficiently NPOV. The linguistic (and now genetic) evidence linking the Aryans to the ancestors of the Europeans is very solid and, as the collapse of the Indus Civilisation and the Indo-European invasion-migration-whatever you want to call it did occur fairly close together (I've seen them get more seperated in books over my lifetime and I'm not old). It's an easy mistake to make and not limited to "foreign" civilisations. It was applied to Rome, for example, even by those who regarded themselves as Rome's cultural heirs.

indeed. this suggests that to observe that one people was conquered by another people is a racist slur against the conquered. That's ridiculous. Historians must be allowed to make statements like this without being accused of racism (if you say that the indigenous population was defeated because they were black would be quite a different story of course). Why, the Greeks were conquered by the Romans, and even the conquerors admitted that the conquered were culturally more advanced. The whole argument is bogus. Being civilized is no protection against invaders. dab 13:22, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ok. I am new to this sort of thing, and I am not a scholar of ancient history, and I do not subscribe to any Hindutva beliefs, so take this as an opinion of a lay person(although this person is a descendant of the Indus civilization). Wasn't the original idea of the Aryan invasion supposed to explain how the languages of the subcontinent could be related to the languages of the Middle-East and of Europe? Hence the term Indo-European language? The problem is that it was highly convenient that Fredriech Max Muller and Charles Morris talked of an invasion by paler nomadic tribes on horses who brought with them the Vedas and the beginnings of modern Hinduism, when the subcontinent was under European rule. Especially when at that time it was an important facet of imperialism to subdue and control the local population by any means necessary. Even when Muller recanted, and insisted that the term Aryan was supposed to describe a linguistic group, and should have no relation to race, it was already too late, and the Western world absorbed the theory as the only viable theory for the subcontinent and accepted it into history books till even today. At first it was a linguistic theory, it became a historical-racial theory. There are various reasons why the foundations of the theory are lacking, especially in light of the discovery of the Indus civilization and the excavations occuring even now. I will not go into them since it is discussed in the article(as well as reasons for the theory) "Aryan Invasion Theory" on Wikipedia.

I apologize for how long its taking to get to my basic point, although we should not label historians as racists, especially when they are dealing with limited evidence given to them, we have to take into account the world the historians lived in, when they made their claims. No matter how unbiased a historian might be when investigating history, he/she will always have certain ideas, prejudices that would influence their judgements, and at the turn of the century, Imperialism was the game. Any thought of a local indigenous people, especially under European rule, having any sort of civilization by their own hands would seem a bit improbable to the colonials (I would imagine, maybe there are counter-examples). While throughout history, it is true one people conquering another is a standard story, and it seems to be a convenient and easy theory to work with, in this case it solves the linguistic problem, sometimes one should not be so eager to accept the idea of an invading conquering horde because it is the simplest theory, especially since there seems to be so far a lack of archeological evidence. - Mr. P. Patel. 210pm edt Nov 22, 2004.

sure. read Proto-Indo-European#Origins. We don't have to subscribe to any given historical theory. If, however, we arrive at a theory that was advanced historically for the wrong reasons (imperialism), the theory does not in the least suffer from that. sure, the invasion/horde aspect was over-emphasized. We are speaking of migration/diffusion. But there you are. The language came from the west, and Harappa declined, just as the Aryans arrived. It's circumstantial evidence, but it's evidence unconnected to imperialist/racist reasoning. dab 19:22, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Writing

I am quite surprised how this article made it across FAC. There was hardly any discussion, and most of it reads like a hype. Especially the 'Writing' section is less than satisfactory. It appears that Asko Parpola is indeed notable for publishing the Indus script corpus, but he is also touted as "decipherer" of the Indus script on Hindutva websites. If he indeed claims to have deciphered the script, it should at least be noted that this 'decipherement' has hardly met with general agreement. dab 14:57, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. I am appalled that this article made it through FAC, being filled with as many misspellings and stylistic errors as it is. I'm going to try to clean it up a little. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:47, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Whoa! Parts of the article (the section under the heading "Writing") look like a copyvio from http://www.harappa.com/script/maha1.html. What should be done? —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:50, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Can someone confirm whether this is a copyvio or whether we somehow have permission from the site? —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:51, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

this is appalling indeed. the article was featured at a completely different stage, back in March. [1] It was nominated in January. See Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Featured_log/October_2003_to_April_2004#Indus_Valley_Civilization. There was no discussion at all. Nobody commented, and it was simply considered FA'd. Maybe our FA standards have changed? Maybe we need a FA patrol looking for deterioration of FAs? The person picking the FA of the day should at least do some checking of this kind. dab 22:06, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

some of the text was copyvio from http://www.he.net/~archaeol/9909/newsbriefs/indus.html dab 09:27, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't see the violation. Please be more specific if you would like to make such a charge. Perhaps even point to the edit that introduced it. Hu 20:28, 2004 Nov 23 (UTC)

Seems like someone has now removed the copyrighted text from the article. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 22:27, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

If you don't think the article is FA quality, then list it on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. --mav 20:21, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The article's better now that the text violating copyright has been removed. Some of the bad writing was in that section. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 22:28, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

The edit where I removed the copyvio is here. I do think the article is fair, but I am certain it would be exposed to much criticism if listed on FAC at the present stage. I am listing it on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates for this reason. dab 13:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lost city of Cambay

Shouldn't this part of ancient Indian history be added to the Indus Valley Civilization article? Or should it be a new article. Although it isn't sure exactly how old this sunken city in the Gulf of Cambay is, but it's definitely a part of Indian history (and history of human civilization, btw) and older than the cities of the Indus valley (Harrapa and Mohenjo-daro).

If you don't know what I mean, check these articles:

-- Bender235 21:53, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

touted in January 2002 and never heard of again? Sure, it would be among the oldes cities if it was 9000 years old. But just how are they going to date submerged ruins? But well, we can write an article about it anyway, of course. dab 22:14, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

carbon dating. I see. those hacks dated two pieces of wood, to 5000 BC, and to 7000 BC. Of course the 7000 BC makes the news rather than the 5000 BC one. I would want to see some serious confirmation of this measurement before I even consider accepting the wood is of this age, let alone the ruins. But I think it's no coincidence I have never heard of the case before :) dab 22:21, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, this lost city news is no hoax, I mean, History Today seems to be a serious magazine (the 2nd article was feat. in HT Nov./2002). These to two pieces of wood and the two different results of C14-dating don't have to be contradictions. It's possible that the city existed from 7000 BC to 5000 BC. -- Bender235 00:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

of course. it has to be investigated. it's also possible that they dug up a piece of wood completely unrelated with the city. I wonder what has been said about that during the past two years. It doesn't seem to have made the news again. dab 08:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

here is one more scientific article (also from 2002):[2]. apart from hinduist sites that pounced on the discovery as the obvious site of vedic civilization, I could find no followup. It seems like the whole thing was just silently buried. (or maybe there will be future publications. But at the moment the date hinges on the radiocarbon dating of a single piece of wood. Added a note to Gulf of Cambay. dab 09:05, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nice article. I'll look for some new reports about it, too. The evidence provided by NIOT in the Gulf of Cambay has prompted the Government of India to set up a 'National Team' to probe the area further to unravel the details of these exciting marine archaeological findings. The details of the discovery are expected to change the present view of the prehistory of India and its environs. It probably takes a while until they publish some new details, but it's only a matter of time. -- Bender235 09:58, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"The details of the discovery are expected to change the present view" this kind of statement makes me cringe. It's about as unscientiic as you can get. They practically admit that there is a desired outcome, rather than subscribing to neutral research. dab 10:23, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lack of evidence does not evidence make. Pateince is a vitue. Assuming dab always hears everything published, there is still the possibility that nothing has been published since January 2002. If, indeed, some scrap of information may have escaped him, maybe we can uncover it in time ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:40, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Relavance of Links

http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/frontline.html is the reply to earlier article in Frontline magazine. Are these articles too academic (insted of wikipedia becoming an encyclopedia) ?

Too academic? I daresay too polemic. But go ahead and link to it, people can make up their minds themselves. dab 08:33, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that this being an encyclopedia, there shouldn't be anything too academic to have as an external link or reference. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 11:52, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Featured article

This article was recently defeatured. However, it was not defeatured because of lack of quality, but because it never went properly through the FAC process. So if you want to renominate this article again and are willing to work on the possible objections, feel free to do so. --Conti|✉ 13:52, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

All right :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:27, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Minor Edits in Light of Recent Discoveries

I altered the wording that indicated that the Indus civilization is one of the 3 earliest civilizations to clarify that it is one of the earliest recognized civilizations. This, in light of the recent discoveries of the ancient quite-well-planned cities several miles undersea not only under the Black Sea but also out into the Arabian Gulf, which indicate that many previous ideas about the first appearances of what modern scholarship recognizes as "Civilization" may long have preceded what were formerly unquestioned benchmark dates. I don't intend my miniscule edits to become in and of themselves a source of debate edging on original research, but I think that to not recognize recent discoveries and the the doubts such discoveries cast upon previous ideas about the "earliest-ever civilizations date to 5000- years ago" ideas would amount to tacit approval of a definite (and not so independent of POV position) view of archaelogy. I could (authoritatively) go into depth and argue at length about recent discoveries that suggest that Greek nautological methodoly was based on rudimentary memories of prior significantly-far-more-sophisticated knowledge of nautology, if anyone really feels like getting into fisticuffs about the idea that human civilization has progressed linearly and that we've never become "dumber" than we once were at any given time... for a good, and grievous example, cf: THE DARK AGES...) TShilo12 11:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

the idea of counting civilizations is stupid anyway (nth civilization? which one was "the first"?) -- like everything else, civilization developed gradually. Early cities developed some 10,000 years ago. It's not like they decided one morning, let's be civilized. If you ask me, 3000 BC is not particularly early for a "civilization". It would be quite early for written documents, granted, but unfortunately nothing can be made of the "Indus script". dab (ᛏ) 11:54, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So what you're saying then, is that we're on the same page. TShilo12 05:34, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

flying machines???

are we quoting random crackpots now? dab (ᛏ) 14:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There should be a place for crackpot theories, somewhere on the page.--Wiglaf 14:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, I think that such a theory should not belong at Wikipedia.--Wiglaf 18:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It might actually be worth mentioning, in a carefully watched section of the article, that there are a great number of "unconventional" and "seemingly far-fetched" ideas wrt the level of advancement of the IVC. There are a great number, not only about flying machines, but also such things as that the IVC spawned the polynesian culture, the only evidence of which is the alleged similarity between certain rongorongo figures and IVC "writing". You'll notice, this "crackpot" theory makes prominent mention in the rongorongo article... Tomer ^TALK 22:24, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

TShilo12, I am very tolerant towards crackpot theories, and I am usually the one who defends transatlantic voyages. However, the article you referred to probably the most speculative text I have ever read. Moreover, the similarities with the rongorongo script is old news. Your "authority" is not the one who discovered it.--Wiglaf 22:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My personal feelings toward someone who labels a Reverend as a "crackpot" tends to be very low.

My personal feelings toward someone who claims authority over a Reverend who also happens to hold a Ph.D. also tends to be very low.

My personal feelings toward someone who hasn't the intellectual capacity to recognize a simple paper airplane as a "machine" is likewise low. Though I am ignorant of what references the Reverend has and how complex or simple these "machines" may have been, perhaps you should read them. Maybe they were simple rubberband-powered devices. Neither I nor you know. But you seem to haven't the brain power to recognize this on your own. And you certainly haven't the research style requisite to hold the Wikipedia position you hold, as you apparently immediately assume you know more than anyone else.

My personal feelings are that you likely once smoked it yourself.

Do you have the research abilities to recognize who wrote this? If you do, why don't you consult the Reverend yourself before immediately assuming that you know more than he does ... Mr Know-It-All??? User:Roylee

User:Roylee, There is no place for this kind of diatribe on Wikipedia. Also, I can list a number of people holding the title "reverend", who are not only crackpots, but completely insane. This applies to any number of Ph.D.'s in psychology as well. User:Wiglaf, I didn't refer to any "authority", nor did I cite any articles. Please check out what you're saying before you fly off the handle. If the similarities between IVS and Rongorongo are "old news", especially apparently to you, how is it that you can refer to transatlantic voyages, when only trans-pacific voyages are necessary for any such potential relationship? Also, the "flying machines" theory is forwarded by the same researchers who noted these similarities, because the IVC has not left any evidence of a shipbuilding or navigational system sufficient to account for their presumed presence on Easter Island. Regardless of how "old news" the similarity in "scripts" might be, this fact alone places such theories squarely back into the realm of "crackpot". Tomer ^TALK 00:57, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you do not realize that you have just committed a crime, called "libel: slandering in public" ... on a public web site. You are accusing the Reverend above of something ... in public ... that you cannot prove. (Ready for a lawsuit? No joke. Get ready, or revise the above statements at once.) If you disagree, consult a lawyer (I already have). Here are your statements turned around on you:

User:Wiglaf and User:TShilo12, there is no place for this kind of crackpot writing on Wikipedia. There should be a place for this sort of crackpot writing, somewhere on the page. On second thought, I think that such crackpot writing should not belong at Wikipedia. You'll notice, this "crackpot" writing makes prominent mention in the hugabugaboo article.... These opinions belong squarely back in the realm of "crackpot". I probably could find persons with the same credentials as yourselves who are not only "crackpot" but legally insane.

Why is it that I must tell you this? Why cannot you realize this or consult a lawyer on your own? I personally question your intellectual integrity. ... Like I said, I suggest you revise your statements above ... fast. Click "edit this page" at the top, and start deleting before too many children out there read what you wrote. No joke.

Now, back to the heart of the matter...

TransPacific? To travel from West Africa to Mexico, from what I saw on the last globe I looked at, it is a lot shorter over the Atlantic Ocean than the Pacific. Or are you referring to something else?

As for your statements about "evidence," I'd like to quote something from another Wikipedia Talk Page (I'm referencing "209.150.67.45" here):

...referring to Timeline of mathematics and Egyptian mathematics, it is obsurd to believe that nearly 5000 years ago, ancient Egyptians were able to calculate π as 4×(8/9)² (or 3.160493...), with an error of slightly over 0.63 percent, and then suddenly hit an "intellectual wall" and totally stagnate intellectually for nearly 2 millennia afterward (before finally succumbing to the conquests of outside tribal warriors) without ever even contemplating this notion of "nothingness." Golden ratio is another such number including "0" as a decimal place holder. (But also is it certainly fascinating to note an ancient Egyptian knowledge -- many millennia ago -- of this number's existence!) Psychologically and mathematically, are we to really believe that in those 2 millennia no one single Egyptian mathematician ever thought about representing "nothingness" somehow? Speaking in the Science of Psychology now, History records only a few hundred years requisite for ancient Greek mathematicians to progress to some notion of "zero" concurrent with their ideological development of similar mathematical ideas. If it took the Greeks only a few hundred years, why would it take Egypt several millennia, facing the fact that the Greeks studied mathematics in Egypt? Please refer to the following quote:

"...there must have been much more to Egyptian mathematics. We know that Thales, Pythagoras and others visited Egypt to study. If there were only applied arithmetic methods as we have seen in the papyri, the trip would have had little value. But where are the records of achievement? Very likely, the mathematics extant was absorbed into the body of Greek mathematics -- in an age where new and better works completely displaced the old, and in this case the old works written in hieroglypics. Additionally, the Alexandrian library, one place where ancient Egyptian mathematical works may have been preserved, was destroyed by about 400 CE." [3]

Some historians believe that our ancient Roman ancestors destroyed more than just ancient Egyptian civilization and society, not to mention totally obliterating their peoples from the face of the Earth (but yes, was it the Romans? or Persians? or Greeks? or the Arabs in the end? or ...? We cannot point fingers here, because we have no definite knowledge). Some historians believe that our ancient ancestors plundered specialized knowledge of ancient Egypt and conspired to publicly declare those ideas (to us, their children) as their own. Note, for example, the Great Pyramid of Giza. Please read the article on that page. Why are we so confounded in this modern day for an explanation as to how it might have been feasibly constructed? Some are saying advanced engineering while others are claiming advanced alchemy!!! Note also the Suez Canal. Why would the ancient Egyptians dig such a monumental canal over 3000 years ago if they didn't possess a need to pass thru?

. . . .

In other words, in the above statements you are limiting yourself to what you see. You are not imagining possibilities. When one society conquers another, like criminals taking over a victim's home, what do you think might happen? We must use our imaginations to get a better picture.

But from the few remnants we have, they [ancient Egypt] seem to have been far more advanced than has been commonly speculated. Unfortunately, they are no longer here to tell us. [--209.150.67.45]

What "209.150.67.45" says about ancient Egypt may possibly apply here. And again, why must I state this? Why cannot you realize this on your own? Here is a quote to goad you along the meager intellectual prowess needed to recognize this:

Decline and collapse

No one knows why, but it coincided with the arrival of nomadic Indo-European speakers in the area.

I wonder why that happened. Don't you? Must I really quote the section on Science for you? Can you read it yourselves? Looks like something that a conquerer would be interested in. Or do you not recognize this?

Here, I'll make it easy for you: Criminals work hard to cover their tracks.

Get the picture? I'm tired of explaining this to you. I'm going to bed to sleep. Please research your topic. Please write to the Reverend. He is not a "crackpot." He'll write back to you ... intelligently. Trust me. Good night.

Oh, whatever, and good night yourself. My time is too important to waste interacting with crackheads and crackpots. Not only do you clearly have no understanding whereof you speak, but your verbal flailings have no place in wikiworld. I won't waste another minute responding to your rubbish, I'll just keep an eye out for any half-baked "contributions" you might make to the article, with my trigger-finger on "revert". Tomer ^TALK 02:52, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

It appears that TShilo12 split into at least two users during the night. He tried to hide by calling himself Tomer and then an anon user temporarily appeared (having only this contribution). I will leave it to others to make up their minds about the conversation that took place during the night.--Wiglaf 07:09, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Uh, no. I am only User:TShilo12. My sn is Tomer, but my user is only TShilo12. I have no alternative username or userpage for Tomer. My name is Tomer Shiloach, my sn is TShilo12. I sign all my posts, immediately, or shortly thereafter if I messup and forget. Most of the insanely long diatribe to which I responded was all the "contribution" of a single user whose IP addy or nearly-anon userid I neither care nor have the energy to recall or relearn. Search the History page if it contents you to do so, but I am signed in 24-7, even on shabat when I'm not using my computer... The moron to whom I responded after his umpteen thousand impossible-to-follow paragraphs was the only user who wrote anything between my addressing you (Wiglaf) and him in the same paragraph long long ago, in a galaxy far far away. My one and only response to said user's diatribe has already been made, and signed. Tomer ^TALK 10:29, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

ok, could everybody please sign what they're saying? this is unreadable, even ignoring the sockpuppet issues. On the content side, all I have to say is: see where we are heading as soon as we allow "Bronze Age flying machines" theorists into the article? Regarding the "reverend": You can buy the title for $50 on the internet. But you are a fool if you do, because you can legally call yourself "reverend" for free. To whomever was talking of libel and lawsuits: Making void legal threats may get you blocked from editing, see Wikipedia:legal threats. If you're serious, pursue your lawsuit but cease from editing Wikipedia in the meantime. dab (ᛏ) 07:23, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ah, Wiglaf, it is actually a tounge-in-cheek method of "npov" editing to counter slightly kooky theories with completely bizarre ones. So saying that the IVC had flying machines may actually help put the notion into perspective that the IVC was an extremely advanced, peaceful, serene, artistic and what have you culture. Compare Rigveda where the claim that the Veda was written on the North pole helps put into perspective the claim that there is an "astronomical code" in the Rigveda, I think you can see where I'm getting at. dab (ᛏ) 07:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I see. I usually stay out of this kind of controveries. I see that in this discussion I have been accused of promoting transatlantic voyages (my defense of them is limited to stating that there are people defending the Kensington Runestone). I guess I should have considered my words more carefully.--Wiglaf 08:11, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

PS. Judging from User:Roylee's reactions it looks like a case of self-promotion.--Wiglaf 08:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If allowing crackpot theories into the article is going to require considering the inclusion of what'shisname's rubbish and POV edits, I hereby retract my previous endorsement of such a section. I think w/in the bounds of an encyclopedia it should be included, but if what it takes to keep out crackhead editors, I'll acquiesce and say "throw out the crackpots with the crackheads". Tomer ^TALK 10:33, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes it is necessary to exclude some sections. There is no limit to the number of theories that you can find on the Internet, and I don't think that Wikipedia's credibility benefits from discussing them all.--Wiglaf 10:41, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

also, since against my expectation, we're actually discussing Barton's "theory", the full quote is:

In fact, there is evidence from ancient East Indian chronicles (some of these pictures are on AAWR (African American Web Ring) of the geat scientific advancement of the Black prehistoric inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization (6000 b.c. to 1700 b.c), who built flying machines, who had flushing toilets, cities on a gridlike pattern, and many of what we may call "modern" conviniences.

apart from demonstrating that our "PHD'd Reverend" is unable to spell convenience, this also shows he has no clue what he is talking about. He is repeating some weird statements he found on some "Black Power" website, including that the IVC dates to 6000 BC, and that it was a "Black" civilization. I don't know if the IVC had flushing toilets, but I'm not going to take the word of somebody who also claims the IVC was founded by neolithic flying Africans. (sure, the IVC people may have been dark-skinned, being the ancestors of the Dravidians, but that is hardly an established fact, and I don't see what their skin colour has to do with anything, including their bathroom fittings or their aeronautics) dab (ᛏ) 10:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

you mean "weird" right? :-p Tomer ^TALK 10:55, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Hey! no fair! you can't correct stuff while I'm correcting you! You you you YOU CRACKPOT! ;-p Tomer ^TALK 10:57, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

omg, here they come! the flying lawsuits! <me ducks!> Tomer ^TALK 10:58, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

whoa, I thought I could correct my typos before anyone noticed. For the record, I had "thoery" and "wierd" in my original edit :) dab (ᛏ) 10:59, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thoery! Thoery!? What's wrong with "thoery"? Stop thoering stuff like that aruined! (I need sleep...) Tomer ^TALK 11:06, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

'Saraswati Valley' - position in article

Posting here because I am aware that this will otherwise lead to someone reverting it without discussion. While I cannot dispute the fact that 'some' historians, almost certainly with Hindu Nationalist leanings wish to change the common signifier for this civilisation, I dont think it has reached a level of acceptability that warrants its inclusion in the article, let alone in the article lead-in. Note: As compared to 40,000 Google hits for the phrase "Indus Valley Civilisation" there are 57 for "Saraswati Valley Civilisation." Of the latter, all but 8 are on pages which do not also refer to it as the IVC. None of the 8 remaining entries are on pages with an expressly political purpose (rather than pages with an academic purpose, and a particular political bent.) Further, there are no references to the phrase at all in a JSTOR search of peer-reviewed history journals or in a general Lexis search for news articles.

This seems to indicate that the page is being used to propagate a particular theory as gaining acceptance when it has not done so as yet, which is inappropriate and not NPOV. Hence I intend to delete the reference, at best retaining a reference later on about the myth of the Saraswati river.

Hornplease 06:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

All that your Google search proves is that people do not refer to the culture as the "Saraswati Valley Civilization". It says nothing about the extent to which the Saraswati theory has been accepted. Georg Feuerstein is a non-political Indologist who has just written a book on the subject. In evaluating the Saraswati theory, Klaus Klostermaier said that although it's not clear that the new (Sarswati) theory is entirely correct, it is clear that the old chronology will be changed because of the Saraswati Theory. Aurobindo Ghosh also endorsed something like the Saraswati theory.

So I think that you have failed to show that the Saraswati Theory should not be presented in this article. --goethean ॐ 15:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I have no objection to a statement that a miniscule minority of non-academic Indologists - not archaeologists - believe that there are dry river beds which can be identified with the Vedic Saraswati, and that the vanishing of that river - Saraswati or not - contributed to the decline of the IVC. However, given that, as you agree, the IVC is not referred to as the "Saraswati Valley", if should not be called thus. A statement that a few scholars of religion - not archaeologists - hold this theory to be worth examining, which is all that you have demonstrated to this point - can be accomodated in the article somewhere more appropriate. Hornplease 21:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem accepting that this dried up river may correspond with Vedic Sarasvati. After all, sarasvati means "with lots of pools", i.e. we are looking at something between a swamp and a river. This has however nothing to do with the IVC, it just means that the Aryans settled there for some time in late Rigvedic times before moving further East. It appears Sarasvati only became overwhelmingly important as the "disappeared river" after they had left the area behind. My point is that identificatin of Sarasvati has no bearing on the IVC, since the decline of the IVC predates the hymns to Sarasvati by about 1000 years. dab (ᛏ) 08:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Given that nobody else has raised any further argument, I am changing the position of the reference. Please discuss it here further if you have an objection, dont revert immediately. Hornplease 06:06, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone wanted to remove the nationalist motivations behind the name "saraswati culture". Since, I have so far not seen any valid scholarly reasons (see Dab's comment) behind this name, I reverted it.--Wiglaf 19:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The google test being talked about here is quite flawed. I don't think any one who matters refers to the civilization as "Sarasvati Valley Civilization", so don't expect to find any hits for that. But there are a significant number of historians who refer to it as Indus Saraswati/Sarasvati civilization for which I get a combined 15000 articles (many of which might be common.) No doubt, an overwhelming majority (argumentum ad populum?) knows it as Indus Valley Civilization for historical reasons, but that fact that this name is considered inappropriate by a significant number of scholars should be emphasized in the introduction. It is obvious that hindu nationalists would love to attach Sarasvati to the civilization, and Islamists would love to dissociate this river as much as they can with the civilization, and try to associate the civilization with Persian and middle eastern cultures, but beyond these people's rants and arguments there are some facts which need to be presented here. deeptrivia 30 June 2005 21:41 (UTC)

It's not "Sarasvati Valley" anyway. That's a hybrid term. It's either "Indus Valley" or "Sarasvati". But while "Indus Valley" is unambiguous, geographically, "Sarasvati" alludes to a set of rather shaky hypothesis floating around in the background. 1 July 2005 08:26 (UTC)

Nobody disagrees that some people believe that there should be a name change. however, first of all the google numbers you quote above are in the ratio of 1200:400,000. That's nowhere near even a non-negligible minority. Further, a search on Lexis-Nexis and on jstor.org, the academic journal archive, indicate that neither peer-reviewed articles nor those with the benefit of subediting use the phrase (in other words, absolutely zero hits. as compared to over 20000 for Indus Valley/Harappan Civ.). I will leave a mention of the suggested name change in the body of the text. However, once again, it DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE IN BOLD IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. Hornplease 10:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I support the removal. Wikipedia is not the place for the promotion of new names, it is an encyclopedia.--Wiglaf 10:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Rxasgomez's edits

I am moving User:Rxasgomez's edits here before reverting his changes in case anyone wants to keep any of it: --goethean ॐ 23:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Aryan invasion hypothesis proposed a strong opinion about that Indus Vally Civilisation was the Proto-Dravidian civilisation. The Sangam literature always had cited that dravidians moved to the existing part of South India from a destroyed land - Kumari kandam.

Ahar-Banas culture / Banas culture

do we have a reference to that? See [4]. dab (ᛏ) 08:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

The links at the bottom of the page dude.From the Horses mouth. [5]

The map

we need to redraw Image:Indus Map.jpg; it's probably a copyvio anyway. See also [6]. I would do it, but I don't have a good gfdl'd blank map of the area. dab (ᛏ) 08:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

we are really stretching "fair use" here. All images used in this article were simly taken from other websites, and no fair use rationale is argued. At least the map should be redrawn by a wikipedian. dab (ᛏ) 06:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikification

I noticed there was some minimal wikification, but I think we can do better. I've wikified up the the 3rd paragraph of the Cities section. raylu 03:04, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

the map

I'm sorry, but Image:CiviltàValleIndoMappa.png is almost worthless. Not only because of its lack of detail, but the area marked as pertaining to the IVC covers half of the Hindukush. The only source given is "Copyright © Nataraja". We desperately need something like Image:Indus Map.jpg GFDL'd. dab (ᛏ) 11:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced the map. dab (ᛏ) 11:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The Overview section was horrible

It looked as if anyone who was carrying any baggage dumped it at the first place he could find. I don't know enough about the IVC to add new information, but I can move sentences around and I think the overview now reads better. Please check out the difference [7] and give your comments. I suggest splitting the article into 1) Overview 2) Historical evidence and controversies. (Geographical scope will probably get covered here) 3) Chronology (Emergence, peak, decline) 4) Achievements - Science, technology, arts, etc. --Ravikiran 18:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Can I remove the neutrality template?

The article doesn't seem too controversial to me.--Rob117 23:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Greek uncia

Ancient Greek uncia is a unit of length, not weight or mass, which is being discussed in the article. Perhaps you mean Roman ounce (Roman uncia)? Pgan002 10:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Bronze

what is the earliest evidence of Bronze in the IVC? Where was it found, and how is it dated? Is the introduction of Bronze consistent with 3rd millennium trade with Mesopotamia (Meluhha)? 130.60.142.65 11:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)