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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Yoninah (talk | contribs) at 20:00, 5 August 2010 (→Yochanan Sofer). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome!

Hello, Pusheter Yid, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome!

Your last edit to Yochanan Sofer

I noticed the new version is just an expansion of the last version you edited, without total disregard for the changes made by other editors in the mean time. This is not going to be tolerated on Wikipedia. If you want to improve the article, base yourself on the latest version only.

FYI, I and others had improved the technical quality of the article immensely. You might learn a thing or two from studying our edits. Debresser (talk) 21:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question

{{helpme}} Dear Debresser, Thank you for your comments, and advice.

I am very new to writing articles to wikipedia and happy to make my contribution. Actually this article Yochanan Sofer is my first and still learning the strings. I noticed your edit, but it seemed to a me a mistake. There were five parts of my article removed (!): 1) Erlau Dynasty Today 2) Sefarim – Books 3) Opinion & Politics 4) Family 5) Lineage to the Chassam Sofer . (I dont know why the family tree I built was displayed at the end).

Please re-assess your edit, because I think this information is quite important. Or advise WHY this was edited out so we can find a way to return this info.

I think we have enough info to open two pages. One called Yochanan Sofer and one called Erlau Dynasty (or Erlau Hasidim).

Please let me know your thoughts.

Pusheter Yid (talk) 14:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Using the helpme template calls any and all helpers over. If you wish to discuss things with Debresser (talk · contribs), you should leave a message on hisher talk page.  Chzz  ►  14:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've received your reply. I'll write you an extensive answer in another few hours. An answer that will try to explain to you many of the fundaments of Wikipedia as they relate to this article. Debresser (talk) 16:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Answers and advice as promised

First of all, I hope you have used the time since our last conversation for studying. Apart from Torah study I mean studying the above five links, explaining the basics of editing on Wikipedia, both technically as well as with respect to the rules of the Wikipedia community.

In the following answer I will make many statements concerning Wikipedia policies, guidelines and conventions. I would be too hard for me to add links to all the pages where I have found them in the course of my work here on Wikipedia. I have to ask you to take my word for it. Most subjects you will be able to find at Wikipedia:Manual of Style.

  • An article should not start with a header.
  • Avoid the word “ultra-“, as in ultra-orthodox. It is scientifically incorrect, and has a negative connotation for some people.
  • Use internal links (with the square brackets []) only for the first instance of a term in any given article.
  • Capitalise only proper nouns.
  • Reserve quotation marks (the ‘’gershayim’’ “”) for quotes, or names of small works like novellae or songs.
  • Add only those categories to an article that are directly supported by the text, and of more than accidental relevance.

Debresser (talk) 19:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My second edit

All the advice above was based only on my first edit.

While I was making my first edit, you were working at home on your computer, using the text of the article as it was before my edit, and build a new version of the article. Then you pasted that version of yours on the existing article. Without taking into account the work that I had done on this article in the mean time. What I did afterwards was pressing one button and restoring my version. And I explained in the edit summary that the reason I restored my version was that this modus operandi of trampling upon other people's edits is not acceptable. I am sure you did this in good faith, thinking you were immensely improving the article, and possibly without even noticing my edits. But the fact remained and that's why I reverted it.

The way to continue is to build upon the article as it is now, and make your additions to it the way it is at present. You have so far created an interesting and valuable article, which is now for the whole world to view.

Since I have already seen the additions you want to make, let me say something about them as well.

  • The “Sefarim –Books” section should be renamed to “Bibliography”. A bibliography should preferably include details like publisher and year of publication. A bibliography should not include a description of the content of the books.
  • The family and lineage section should be just that: an enumeration of names with only such details as name, notable nickname, year of birth and death, and most notable place of living. In this case I would allow for an additional mention of a main opus, if present.

Keep up the good work, hatzloche, Debresser (talk) 19:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Reply to Debresser

Hello Debresser

Thank you for your explanations, I do indeed understand. My overriding of your edit was done in good faith, as I thought it was a mistake. Now I got grasp of whats going on.

I as well took the time to study those issues on the Guide.

I think though that the section you removed named Opinion & Politics was important for the article. Do you have any objections?

Please let me know.

Thanks Pusheter Yid (talk) 19:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure you did it in good faith.
Opinions & Politics: put it up and we'll work on it from there. Debresser (talk) 23:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yochanan Sofer

Hi, I noticed you've put a lot of work into this page. Did you know that Rabbi Shimon Sofer, the Michtav Sofer, was the brother of the Ksav Sofer, not his son?[1] Does this affect the Erlau history? Yoninah (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Erlau (Hasidic dynasty)

Hi again. I am a bit confused by your recent edits to this article. I understand from the introduction that Rabbi Yochanan Sofer is the founder of the Hasidut, which is based on the teachings of the Chasam Sofer. A case could be made for his grandfather, Shimon Sofer (II), being the progenitor of the Hasidut, although he was not an official Rebbe. In your recent edits, however, you start tracing the Hasidut directly from the Chasam Sofer. Did the Chasam Sofer really have Erlau in mind when he promulgated his teachings? I think you need to go back to the way it was written originally, starting with Rabbi Shimon Sofer and mentioning his ancestors briefly before moving ahead to Moshe Sofer and Yochanan Sofer. A separate section about Erlau customs and thought based on the Chasam Sofer is definitely in order. But a Chasam Sofer family history is not.

I would also like to respectfully suggest that you read some of the Wikipedia guidelines pages mentioned in your welcome. The honorific "rabbi" should not be used over and over again throughout an article. Additionally, the designation of people such as "Shimon Sofer (II)" is not appropriate in the text; it should only be in the link, as Shimon Sofer (point your mouse at that link and you'll see what I mean). And when you include a reference, you should add the author and title so the latter shows up in the notes, not the internet address (see WP:Referencing for beginners). Kol tuv, Yoninah (talk) 16:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your lengthy reply. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I have no problem with tracing the Erlau dynasty back to the tenets of the Chasam Sofer. What I was questioning was the way you laid out the page. Please see Belz (Hasidic dynasty), Ger (Hasidic dynasty), and Breslov (Hasidic dynasty), which also start out with history sections that are brief and to the point, not lengthy family trees with pictures of each person. In the Erlau (Hasidic dynasty) article, you should keep your focus narrowed on the history, tenets and practices of the Hasidut. All this extra detail about the Chasam Sofer's family, the Ksav Sofer's family, etc., belongs in their respective articles.
Hopefully I will have more time next week to "wikify" what you wrote. Kol tuv, Yoninah (talk) 16:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Yochanan Sofer

Hi, I noticed that you just changed the Infobox from Rebbe to Jewish leader. Any reason for that? Even if a dynasty doesn't fit the usual definition (like Breslov), it is classified like the others on Wikipedia for the sake of classification. Yoninah (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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