Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 30

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Add mention of alternative uses of the word

(This was mentioned above, but may have gotten lost in the re-write of that lead paragraph):

The word "antisemitism" is, rarely, used to include bigotry against arabs and other "Semitic" peoples. This usage is discouraged, but it is made by notable people, sometimes for political purposes. Although the usage is rare quantitatively, it is significant from a political and social point of view. The importance is underscored by the huge debate over spellings antisemitism vs anti-Semitism, and the trend towards the former spelling to avoid the mis-use of the word.

But the total absence of acknowledgement of the alternative use in this article is not good. I would not suggest anything in the lead paragr, of course, but would suggest a sentence in the "Usage" section. Something like: "the word has been used on occasion to include bigotry against other Semitic-language peoples such as Arabs, but such usage is often rooted in political purposes and is discouraged by language authorities."

Primary-source examples of using the word to include Arabs include Ralph Nader, James Zogby, and Samir Hanna Kafity.

Secondary sources that discuss that usage (and generally condemn it) include: Bernard Lewis "Semites and anti-Semites" page 117; book "Aftershock: anti-zionism and anti-semitism" by David Matas p 34; and several other books.

One especially notable example of this usage was in the report of the Durban Review Conference.

I understand that this alternative usage of the word is an anathema to many, but it is a reality, and should be described in the "Usage" section. This usage is not "fringe" or screwball, instead it is a notable, albeit rare, usage that deserves to be mentioned. --Noleander (talk) 06:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Any comments? Here is a quote from that book by Matas:

"At the Durban NGO forum, anti-Israel advocates arranged to have inserted into the final Declaration and Program of Action the words 'anti-Arab racism is another form of antisemitism' and 'Arabs as a Semitic people have also suffered from alternative forms of antisemitism'... This attempt has nothing to do with racism against Arabs and everthying to do with undercutting a rationale for the existence of Israel."

--Noleander (talk) 14:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Didnt see any objections after five days, so I added that sentence. --Noleander (talk) 19:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

You may be correct Noleander, regarding motives, but Zionist motives are also at work above, to try to prevent the proper and correct use of the English language and stiffle a term's correct and legitimate use. I don't mind what Jews do with their language. I do mind when they try to interfere with my language. Anti-semitism refers to Semites (Arabs and Israelis.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.169.188 (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem with antizionist antisemanticist such as you is that your politics block your grasp of human language. The term's meaning is the way in which it is usually being used, and Nader is trying to make a point specifically by using it differently, thus relies on the standard meaning of the term. 134.106.41.28 (talk) 12:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The debate about this word antisemitism is typical of discussions that involve peoples personal understanding of language and the actual facts of language. English has many words that have changed meaning, and some words have the opposite meaning to that when the word was first used. The emotionally charged nature of the word antisemitism means it will always have competing definitions depending on a persons background, education, and beliefs. The above comments are typical;"Anti-semitism refers to Semite (Arabs and Israelis.)" What about the other groups known as Semitic? Maltese etc? To lock a words meaning into a denial of history is only one trap for this debate. We use language to clarify and to cloud facts.We talk to conceal and to reveal.Culture is like that. Good luck.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 10:57, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Dhimmis

part of the article where jews under islamic rule are discussed , there is a factual error regarding islamic perspective of non muslims under muslim rule.Nonmuslims were equal to muslims in every field and they were allowed to appear in court of law. and file a law suet against even the caliph, which is proven in history.They were to pay jizya only if they could ,otherwise islamic goverment was to pay for the expences for that idividual, this was called wazifa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.152.30.72 (talk) 10:31, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Odd sentence

Every time I look at "According to James Carroll, "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors such as pogroms and conversions had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."[30][31]" it strikes me as a rather strange thing to say: very few ethnic/national groups from history are recognisable today, the world doesn't work like that, intermarriage and dilution are also factors as is the rise of nations, national identities, dilution etc. Why are there virtually no celts today? Not persecution, just conquest. Every ethnic group can point to a historical peak when it was a much higher proportion of the world population. At the time of the exodus from Egypt how did the number of Egyptians and Jews compare, and how do they compare today? Is this really anything to do with antisemitism, or persecution of Egyptions? No, surely it had far more to do with the conquest of Israel, or fall of the Egyptian empire. All in all although there is a source of sorts claiming it, it strikes me as a deeply weak and innumerate argument to the point of bringing down the credibility of the whole article. Does anyone really support it as an argument worth its weight compared to the others? --BozMo talk 16:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Oddments Überall

This is the first protected talk page I've seen in 5 years or so of editing wiki, that says something. FTR, "antisemitism" could in fact be precisely that a dislike or antipathy to semites of all varieties whether arab or jew, their underlying common belief system, culture, etc. Telling the arrogance that preempts even this commonsense linguistic truth. They are after all a common ethnic group at the level of the term with the affix "anti", common mythic ancestor ("abraham"), common actual ancestry, etc. Lycurgus (talk) 19:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Antisemitism in the US?

"In the United States, in the context of the "Global War on Terrorism" there have been statements by both the Democrat Ernest Hollings and the Republican Pat Buchanan that suggest that the George W. Bush administration went to war in order to win Jewish supporters. Some note these statements echo Lindberg’s 1941 claim before the US entered World War II that a Jewish minority was pushing America into a war against its interests. During 2004, a number of prominent public figures accused Jewish members of the Bush administration of tricking America into war against Saddam Hussein to help Israel. U.S. Senator Ernest Hollings (D-South Carolina) claimed that the US action against Saddam was undertaken 'to secure Israel.' Television talk show host Pat Buchanan said a 'cabal' had managed 'to snare our country in a series of wars that are not in America’s interests.'" Both these statements were labeled antisemitic by Dr. Rafael Medoff, director of the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies.[157]"

I don't see how this is antisemitic? Maybe in the opinion of Medoff it's antisemitic, but that doesn't make it so. I really don't see anything hostile or prejudice towards Jews here. It just seems like it's speculation. Maybe it's not politically correct, but to call it antisemitic seems to be pushing a POV. You could argue it either way, so I think it should be removed. ScienceApe (talk) 21:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

There are always those eager to see antisemitism in any opposition to anything Israel wants. In some cases, so-called "anti-Zionism" or "criticism of Israel" is a tissue-thin veil for genuine antisemitism; but by no means in all. It's a question of interpretation, and I don't think the case has ever been made. Some of Buchanan's other remarks over the years are fair game, though. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

As is this one. Buchanan is skilled at using "code words"; the subtext of "cabal" is "Jewish conspiracy". Not quite so sure about the Hollings comment. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough it may not be, but there is a source claiming it as such. Maybe a "controversy" section (which i added) as to overzealous interpretations of ad hominem attacks using the term "anti semitism"(Lihaas (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Split article?

WP:Article size this article is over 130k which means its overdue for a split off. Perhaps a split by worldview along western and non-western lines. Or some other suggestions? Lihaas (talk) 16:39, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Semitic=arabs/ethiopians,etc

WP:Consensus can change if there was one.

1. the article doesn't make more than 1 paragraph to talk about the word and that too with a western perspective, which means the global tag must go on if it doesn't expand its euro-centric worldview.

2. Furthermore the link on the talk page saying why this is limited to jews cyclically links back to a section on etymelogy that is uncited.

Now i'm not precluding the fact that the predominant usage is to refer to jews, and the article would be in its right to talk about this historical, but it needs more than sub-paragraph to clarify the use (ie- more than the 1 non-western link)

Along the lines i've altered the lead a bit to reflect neutrality while still preserving the jewish-predominance of the word. Lihaas (talk) 16:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted these edits, all of which suffer from the etymological fallacy and ignore the history of the use of the term. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you dont revert them until consensus. You havent discussed why.

Based on seeing your edits you CLEARLY have not bothered to read the edit but resorted to blind reverting. That is VANDALISM. Now i posted reasons above, if you want to discuss them then do so. 1 link to another page (that too without proper cites and vague ones at that) without explanation doesn't no quantify as a debate or a consensus.

Lihaas (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not vandalism; it's a content dispute, which you are on both the factually incorrect side of and the incorrect side of as far Wikipedian consensus is concerned. Yes, consensus can change; and if you can develop a consensus for the definition you prefer, then it might go in; until you establish that consensus, the existing consensus stands. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The edits in question are less than helpful. IronDuke 03:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Did you read his edit? There was info over there that had nothing whatsoever about anything controversial. Blind reverts of anything and everything is vandalism. (some might be controversial but he removed everything

Does the "long" tag (amongst others) have any such POV controversies? You clearly have not read the edit as shown. At any rate i have EXPLICITLY shows at least 1 source that disputes your summary ascertation that " but that's incorrect; anti-semitism does and always has referred to Jews, not the more general case of "semites"." Find a non-western source for that assertion if you want to take off the globalize talk.

The onus was on me to challenge my removal. So i was WP:Bold with the change and knowing it would be controversial brought it immediately to talk and no one has been willing to discuss this controversy before reverting. The ball is not in the challenger's court. Lihaas (talk) 20:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

In fact, I did read the edit in question -- I generally do, before commenting. And I saw nothing in your edit worth preserving. What specifically did you think should be kept? If you're referring to al manar, I don't see that as a reliable source, and it's a fringe opinion. Even if it weren't, it would belong somewhere else, since it has nothing to do with antisemitism per se, merely the term. Finally, while you were bold, you were reverted (with consensus), and now must discuss and gather a new consensus -- if you can. Calling JPGordon's perfectly legitimate edits "vandalism" is not the way to get there. IronDuke 20:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

If you dont see it as reliable that is your problem. Take it to WP:RS (which there is a debate going on). allegations of it being a fringe opinion are yours. I could say your cites and fringe opinions? You want to cite a 100 sources then? It under the section to do with etymelogy, what does that mean if not the term? There wasn't a consensus because as per above we're trying to build it.

and if you did read it how come your response doesn't concern the issue i mentioned above? the LONG tag is controversial? the globalize reference i question hasn't been answered let alone per consensus.Lihaas (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The archives reveal a long-term discussion on these matters, with the consensus in favor of the description of antisemitism as applying to Jews. Changing this, while including the unsourced sentence in the lede However, the word has evolved to predominantly imply in the global media a derision for Jews, is, one presumes, unlikely to gain consensus. Per Ironduke, referring to the previous version as vandalism won't work. If this appears to be an edit war over content, and perhaps a revisiting of an old matter, page protection may be an option (already protected, he notes). JNW (talk) 21:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) In fact, the problem is yours. Show me why your source is reliable -- you provided it, I didn't. If you wanted to challenge other sources, you can feel free to do so here. As for consensus, you need to get it first to make your changes. You don't have any support that I can see, so you need to stop reverting (including the spelling and formatting errors you keep reinserting) until you do. The long tag looks like a windup to a useless POV fork. I see no reason for it to be here. IronDuke 21:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Lihaas, accusing me of vandalism is a personal attack, and I promise you it will not be tolerated. If you still havent read WP:VANDAL to see why content disputes are not considered vandalism, you need to. Likewise, your edits against consensus are not what we call vandalism here; however, they are verging on disruption, and no doubt an uninvolved administrator will treat your actions as such if they continue. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 13:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

JNW: consensus is not concrete. read the above. the sentence in the lead goes on the definition and the clarification already cited and accepted by others that the current definition is as such. There is also the evidence that the root word does not meet that. (see the article's etymology section. which needs to be better reflected in the lead) it was an accomodation. If you want to READ my edit/revert you will note that everything is not controversial. Take for instance the discrimination sidebar (amogst others). Are you seriously going to claim "antisemitism" does not fall under the scope of discrimination?

IronDuke, ReliableSource discussion are form the RS noticeboard not here. there's a reason for the noticeboard. Long is a POV fork? Have you read WP:Article size? Have you seen the subject created below for it? if you dont want the tag then discuss it below. Furthermore, I have never said I am against removing the controversial info until i get consensus, but did you bother to read the edit? I'm not sure because you will find the edits are not all part of "political controversy." What is wrong with the "spelling and formatting errors"? it simply shows that the reverter has not read the edit and blindly reverts it.

jpgordon, likewise blind reverts are not contructive. The edits have you reverted are not constructive because there is content that you have not bothered to discuss when you too reverted them. the long tag (a discussion is below this with no response), the discrimination side bar, etc. Continous revertal of that w/o discussion is at least disruptive if not vandalism. I have come here to discuss the issue of POV and the "long" even BEFORE the "edit war." At any rate, I was calling the edit vandalism, not the editor a vandal. that is a mega-difference because not everything out of the editor is vandalism, therefore he can't be a "vandal."

Let's please stick to CONTENT disputes as i have asked for above. yet the yall seem to want to argue about the revert and "edit wars." if we stick to content we can sort this out. It is a red herring to avoid discussing content and resort to "consensus has already been discussed. you need to gain consensus" well, it aint happening if no one discusses it. So if anyone wants to discuss content list it here and i will be more than willing (as explained in the first post) to continue that. Lihaas (talk) 06:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, let's stick to content; when you gain consensus for the broad changes you are making in one edit, they'll stay in. If you want piece by piece discussion, make piece by piece edits. And describing someone's edits as vandalism is accusing them of vandalism, no matter how you try to parse it. What's most objectionable is your counter-historical, counter-factual insistence that the generally accepted and academically accepted definition of "antisemitism" means something other than "hatred of Jews". --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

JPG I agree with you about the meaning of AS but please see WP:DRNC--BozMo talk 18:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It's just one of several reasons -- "factual incorrectness" is important too. (And describing good faith edits as vandalism is fighting words.) --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I would add that there's a difference between making an edit without consensus and one against consensus. Jihass is clearly making the latter, in addition to highly inappropriate remarks and stonewalling. IronDuke 22:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

We are just trying to work out on Climate Change probation how to deal with bold edits which plenty of people watching an article disagree with. The discussion there has been along the lines of you cannot just say "we all agree you are wrong, bog off" you have to sigh deeply and go and find the last archived discussion on it or offer a proper explanation. This is very boring for everyone but a price we pay for being a community. --BozMo talk 08:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to a rich vein of discussions [1]. IronDuke 02:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the point is here. Both history and reliable sources indicate what antisemitism means. It was invented to mean Jew-hatred, and it's always meant that. Hatred of Arabs is Anti-Arabism, not antisemitism. Everyone has a special bigotry reserved just for them; Arabs, Poles, Turks, Estonians, Iranians, and dozens more. Why do people want to specially deprive the Jews of having their own unique "anti" sentiment? Does anyone really assert that the Nuremberg Laws were directed at the Maltese or Lebanese? Lihaas, what is the point in trying to make the article say things that are both untrue and unsupported by reliable sources? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

At the end of the day people are just committing the etymological fallacy, which has already been said. Do people really not get this?. --Woland (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Lihaas, your edit stated "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Semitic peoples, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. However, the word has evolved to predominantly imply in the global media a derision for Jews." This is just wrong. The word was coined to refer to Jews, and it has always overwhelmingly meant that. Yes, it we look very hard we can find isolated examples of its use to mean the same as "anti-Abrahamic", meaning opposed to monotheistic religions stemming from Judaism. There are also cases in which it is used in an extended sense to mean "anti-Semitic-peoples", which typically implies "opposed to both Jewish and Arabic identity". This is usually in the context of the "Aryan v Semitic" debate of the early 20th century. However, I've never found any example in which Ethiopians are included. In any cae, these are rare usages. The principal meaning has always been "anti-Jewish". An analgous case would be "anti-Americanism". This means "opposed to the USA", not opposed to the peoples of the Americas as a whole. It has never been used to mean that, so we couldn't change the intro of that article to say "Anti-Americanism is prejudice against or hostility towards the peoples of the Americas, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religions. However, the word has evolved to predominantly imply in the global media a derision for the United States of America." Words mean what they are used to mean. Paul B (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Ethiopian are Semitics only per language, and even there they represent distinct branch of Semitic languages. I think that Anti Semitism apply for people of the Semitic race and Ethiopian hatred, if there is such thing, doesn't count as anti Semitism in people view, but just as racism against black people. But all of this is off topic. The issue is that the term refer almost only to Jewish people hatred. It's also most commonly used, and by far, to refer to Jews' hatred. --Gilisa (talk) 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Notability Standards?

Why does anti-semitism get such a long and detailed article while anti-(any other race) doesn't get anything like that treatment? For example where is the anti-arab page? I realise that there's a lot that has been written on anti-semitism, but that doesn't mean it necessarily deserves a lot more "air-time" than discrimination against other races.

Note: I am NOT anti-semitic, I am just questioning over why such a long article should be devoted to this and not other races who have been persecuted and discriminated against. Anonywiki (talk) 18:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you actually check your facts before making the statement that are no articles on "other races who have been persecuted and discriminated against."? There are innumerable such articles, including the "anti arab page", which is exactly where you would expect it to be, at Anti-Arabism. Paul B (talk) 18:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You know, you could have just answered the question. You didn't need to be confrontational about it. It was a legitimate question, as it pertained not just to existence of other pages, but to relative sizes. I think the answer is within the question itself; i.e., there simply is a greater deal of written material and historical documentation of anti-semitism. But that doesn't make it an unreasonable question. A little patience is in order here.

Fair enough. But your question does sound politically oriented. Especially considering it being written soon after the Gaza Flotilla incident, which has triggered talk of antisemitism. Plus, the fact you chose anti-Arabism is interesting. But I digress. Whats the history of anti-Arabism? I would posit to you that it is historically less prevalent and had less impact on its targets relative to antisemitism. Most of the examples of anti-Arabism I can think of are either discrimination and negative atmosphere, in which case the comparison is best to anti-black racism, or minorities in most of the world, or intercene, such as Saddam draining the Marsh Arab homelands. For antisemitism, well, I'm sure you read the article. Plus, there exists the empowerment of people wishing to replicate some of this history. I think nowadays, in this postmodern world where all opinions hold the same value, there is the tendency to equivocate anything that seems of a similar strain if one party wishes it so. Particularly if it fits within the post-liberal, post-colonial narrative. If you happen to read this, and someone doesn't delete it first, I'd be interested to hear your response. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.61.135 (talk) 06:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The length of articles is determined entirely by the amount of effort that editors want to put into them. If you want to write an article as long as this one on anti-whateverism no one will stop you as long as the topic is notable. Even the ridiculous anti-Canadianism has been knocking around for years. Don't complain about the gaps, fill the gaps. Paul B (talk) 21:16, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 79.115.13.127, 20 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} How can I change the picture of teh yellow david star cuz thats teh star that the nazis tagged the jews and iits not nice :|

79.115.13.127 (talk) 08:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: Guess that's the point. Favonian (talk) 10:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Barnet

There is a similar issue at Antisemitism in Europe (Middle Ages) and a discussion in its talk page. A part of it is: "So far Jacob Barnet's article shows only the religious intolerance of the university, only allowing Christians. Compare, for example to Dreyfus affair, the only other individual event(s) linked in antisemitism, to get an idea of the different features and connotations of an antisemitism example. It is possible that the links is right to be linked here. But for that the article needs to be improved much further to show, with references, that it is in fact considered an example of antisemitism. A key to that improvement could be finding out the content and connotation of the changes in the speech of the priest presiding the baptism had to do after learning of the disappearance of Barnet. So far, the article only shows an intolerant university only accepting Christians and an upset group after being turned down. Your rationale implies then that if a similar incident happen to a Taoist then is an example of antitaoism? Well, in any case, that inclusion needs references not just an individual opinion and certainly be something explicitly stated in the article that is classified as such."

In summary, we can not call antisemitism to any regrettable incident involving a person that is considered a Jew. It needs to be supported by references and be explicitly said in the corresponding article. Abisharan (talk) 19:02, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I am wondering why you make reference to "a person that is considered a Jew." Are you considering that the person might not be a Jew? If you are suggesting that, that would be a separate and unrelated issue.

In your above quote, you are quoting yourself from the Talk page of Antisemitism in Europe (Middle Ages). At Jacob Barnet affair, which you refer to in that quote, one of the participants says: "God's just judgment upon that perverse nation and people, whom he had given up to a reprobate sense even to this very day." I find that to be an expression of a fairly antisemitic sentiment. Bus stop (talk) 19:27, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Category Antisemitism is included in the category Religious persecution. According to WP guidance the article should be put in the most specific category only, not the higher-level categories as well. That's why the article itself was put to the Category:Antisemitic attacks and incidents, and that's why it belongs to "see also" section of Antisemitism. If there are no more objections, the article will be added to "see also" section of Antisemitism in 24 hours.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Abisharan, as was well point out by the two editors commented here, you don't seem to have valid point for why not include Barnet. You removed him from the article first without consensus and without leaving any comment on the TP, although in the edit summary you refered to the TP. You reverted again, my edit this time, without having any sort of consensus, and this way going straight to edit warring. As I see it, there is majority for Barnet in this article, the arguments for his exclusion from the article seem weak and therefore I inserted him again. Don't revert unless you got consensus to revert. --Gilisa (talk) 08:12, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Can someone find a source to say this case was AS? Without a source including it violates WP:OR but it should not be hard to find one if it is obvious --BozMo talk 10:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, look at this quote from William Twyss, who preached a sermon on Barnet's change of heart and called for "God's just judgment upon that perverse nation and people, whom he had given up to a reprobate sense even to this very day." He wasn't talking about Taoists when he said that. If that's not antisemitism, there's no such thing. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 12:12, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Causes: relations between Jewish sub-culture and dominant culture

The article seems incomplete: it details the fact that the Jewish people have been subject to prejudice, but fails to provide any serious rationale for this prejudice, making the reader assume it is rooted in religious dogma or even suggesting it stems from a primitive and "inherited" defect. Friction between jewish sub-cultures and dominant cultures in the Roman Empire, post-Roman Europe, and the Islamic Empires is well documented. Can the article attempt to answer what it is about the historical jewish culture that allowed such friction to grow? I say this realizing most of the editors on this page will either be jewish and have a hard time conceiving any rationale basis for the prejudice to grow or be antisemites and attempt to exploit this idea. If the editors here are willing to be objective, this might be a fruitful area. Just a note: I write this after reading Stephen Bloom's Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America. While I cannot say he was accurate in every respect, he had many insights into the issue.Tobit2 (talk) 13:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

No. That would be original research. That's not what we do here. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

No, that would be including existing works into the body of the article. That is what we do here.Tobit2 (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that this article should have a reasonable summary of Srtre's classic Anti-Semite and Jew. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Why would Bloom's recent work about a specific situation in one small town be relevant to an overview of a global prejudice with a 2,000 year history? Please also review WP:UNDUE and WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Bloom was hardly limiting himself to a specific situation; rather, he was using what happened in Postville to frame a number of ideas (which is why the book was so successful). There are a number of works related to this topic - SLrubenstein pointed out Sarte's essay as another - and their inclusion would certainly help make a more complete picture. Otherwise, the article will continue to look sophomoric.Tobit2 (talk) 21:16, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I too doubt that Bloom's musings would be relevant, though I haven't read the book. Was there antisemitism in Postville? People can look at one another as being outlandish. That in itself is not necessarily an example of antisemitism or any other form of hatred that would fit into a similar category. I think the types of hatred that we are talking about are characterized by actual manifestations that matter, and are without any foundation in for instance an initiating action on the part of the group of people who are the object of the hatred in question. Bus stop (talk) 21:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It's still unclear to me why a journalist's musings, framed around a specific example of ethnic conflict in a small town, would rate a mention here, per WP:UNDUE. A famous philosopher's famous essay on the topic would be a separate matter. This also smacks a bit too much of victim blaming to me. Will we next be looking for why "serious rationale" for why African-Americans were enslaved, disenfranchised, discriminated against, lynched, etc.? Will a section on the Crips help explain it all? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I expected this to be difficult for you. On a side note, research on the causes of African enslavement is extensive. The African problem of tribal rivalry was at the root of the slave trade; these tribal conflicts continue to be a problem in Africa to this day.Tobit2 (talk) 03:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not "difficult." "This" is misguided, probably. You posited in your first post that there might be a "rationale basis for the prejudice to grow." If it were rational, would it be antisemitism? Isn't antisemitism baseless, or do you understand it otherwise? I'm willing to listen to your suggestions for material for the the article. We can discuss it. I'll tell you if I disagree with you and why. Bus stop (talk) 03:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Anti-semitism, like all things must begin from somewhere. It can be taught. It can be formed from experience. If it were without a cause, it would not exist. The cause may be empirical evidence or an abstraction of reality, but something must give it power, something must focus it on the jewish people.Tobit2 (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

You have to bring relevant sources for any material you wish to put in this or any other article. Present the material, present the source, and then we can discuss a potential edit in a productive way. We should try to keep this discussion relevant to editing the article. Bus stop (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see response to Jpgordon, below. Thanks.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You have no idea about anything regarding me; please don't refer to me again. Now, are you arguing that the cause of prejudice against African Americans in the United States is tribal rivalry in Africa? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

If you do not wish me to refer to you, please do not answer me. A clarification is required as you have twisted what was said: you had previously asked "will we next be looking for a 'serious rationale' for why African-Americans were enslaved," so I provided you with an example of research on this; people do look at this issue because it is important to modern day Africa. I did not "argue [that there is a] cause for prejudice." Perhaps Sarte was correct; passion rather than reality can be the kernel of hatred.Tobit2 (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Now, what changes are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I recommend a new section be added to the article, perhaps entitled, "Causes of anti-semitism." I suggest that the section incorporate the best research available on why the jewish people have been the subject of sustained prejudice across cultures and time. Slrubenstein suggested a good start for the section by including Sarte's Anti-Semite and Jew. I do not intend to contribute to this article directly, so please take it as a suggestion for the editors.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Tobit2, it's policy that you use article Talk: pages to comment on content, not on the contributor. So, if you can't manage that here, then you'll need to take your comments elsewhere. As for your "clarification", what I said was "Will we next be looking for why "serious rationale" for why African-Americans were enslaved, disenfranchised, discriminated against, lynched, etc.?" You left off the last part of the sentence, so I've highlighted it for you. Now, do you think there is a "serious rationale for this prejudice"? Can you "attempt to answer what it is about the historical African-American culture that allowed such friction to grow?" Jayjg ^(talk) 02:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is getting just odd. If you need clarification, please re-read what I wrote above.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

As a newcomer to the topic of antisemitism, I would also appreciate an explanation of what, exactly, the oppressors thought was bad about the Jews; i.e. how the persecutors mistakenly justified their persecution. There seems to be a great deal of detail about reasonings of ancient history and also reasonings about the post-war Israel/Palestine conflict, but very little about reasonings behind the Nazi persecution and other 19-20th century prejudices. General statements such as the Nazis believed that the Jews polluted bloodlines doesn't really tell me very much; what was it about the Jewish bloodline that they considered negative? What were the stereotypes? Also, there are vague references to some kind of 19-20th century capitalist/economic "justification"; what exactly were the claims that the persecutors made? I am a total newcomer to this topic, newly interested as I have just welcomed a Jewish brother-in-law to my family, and these are the kinds of questions that stand out but I am to embarrassed to talk to my brother-in-law about, as the topic (probably correctly) makes me look uneducated. I'm trying to educate myself, and this article leaves me wanting. Andrew Oakley (talk) 11:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

too long

This article is way too long. Can we heavily trim some long sections like "New Testament and antisemitism" which have their own article largely duplicating this one? --BozMo talk 12:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

That section should definitely be trimmed. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)