Talk:Australia

Expression

I recently attempted to change

Aussie is common colloquially, as an adjective and noun for "Australian"

to

Aussie is a common colloquialism for the adjective and noun "Australian"

but was reverted by AussieLegend with "Previous version was correct". Other opinions would be welcome. Anthony (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I couldn't say the original version is grammatically incorrect, I believe that Anthony's version is better phrased. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 00:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Anthony's version is a cold, clinical analysis of the relationship between the words "Aussie" and "Australian" which is appropriate in a dictionary, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The current version is less clinical and more accurately represents how "Aussie" relates to "Australian", which is a more encyclopaedic treatment. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think Anthony's version reads much better Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:46, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I made the change per above discussion. [1] Anthony (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I still feel that a cold, clinical analysis of a word is not what is needed here. As I said, this is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Anthony's alternative sounds and scans better (now 4:1, I believe). There is no guideline that states analysis of a word should be warm and passionate as opposed to cold and clinical. WWGB (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I actually prefer "Aussie is a common colloquial term for "Australian"", because I don't really see the need to define or limit the parts of speech in such a simple statement. But if I'm not entitled to "write in" my candidate then Anthony's is marginally better, though I certainly wouldn't cross the street to argue about it :)  Begoon^talk 00:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Your suggestion makes more sense than either of the options. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Begoon's suggestion is an improvement on both previous options. Anthony (talk) 08:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok - I've altered it, in that case, as the discussion seems to have come to an end here.  Begoon^talk 03:18, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Capital cities template

First, I know this is better suited to the talk page for the template itself, or Norfolk Island or Kingston, but it seems more likely I'll get a response here.

Am I the only one who feels Kingston is inappropriate in this list? I think it should contain the capitals from only the 6 states and 2 mainland territories. And even if more are appropriate, I'd argue that territories like Christmas Island are better suited, as they have less self governance to my knowledge. I just thought it was strange that Norfolk was put up amongst the other states and territories without the other external territories. 124.170.88.172 (talk) 10:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Question answered (or at least responded to) in my post on the actual discussion page for this. Should I delete this here then? (Sorry, wasn't signed in when I posted this). Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia's strength in Football

Would somebody please explain to Yellow Monkey that Australia's FIFA rankings of 20 and 14 are more significant than of that the national cricket team (for instance) which only competes against 7 nations (and one combination) most of which are at best economical "developing" and most are emerging. Please stop him reverting my edits out of hand especially when he is a cricket fanatic and will not accept that it is not a significant sport internationally - at least not on the same scale as football or even rugby. Silent Billy (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Haven't been watching the reverts, but I would suggest that you too are taking a confrontational approach in wanting to call your favourite sport football in a country where it doesn't go by that name among the general public. Football can mean any of four codes in Australia, and soccer is NOT the most popular. Maybe a bit of give and take is needed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if Soccer may be bigger world wide, I'd still say Cricket is much much more significant in Australia than Soccer. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

And Aussie rules/AFL, a game played only in this country, is more significant within Australia than either. :) Orderinchaos 10:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair dinkum you blokes are living in the 20th century. Australia's national football teams are ranked in the top 20 of ranked nations. That is they are "stronger" tan the very great majority of countries that participate in international competitions which is in both case greater than 120. The women's team are currently Asian champions. Cricket (Test) is played by just 10 participants most of which are either emerging economies, have minuscule populations, are not even nations or a combination of all three. If a first world country like Australia can't be "strong" against such sides then something would be very wrong. Likewise the other listed sports where Australia is supposedly "strong". In particular international RL is a joke as it has been since the 1970s. It is noticeable that sports where Australia used to be "strong" like golf and tennis are carefully excluded. As for cricket when the likes of Lara opine that the sport is dying and press reports in January this year suggested that CA was fudging attendance figures. The participation rates given by CA seem to be questionable too given that they include Kanga cricket etc. Silent Billy (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I must admit to not really being into football but I didn't know we had national football teams with international rankings. I know we have one in soccer, the Associationfootballoos or something like that. Oh no, that's right, they're called the Socceroos, because in Australia the game is most widely known as soccer, not association football. It's just as well, because "real" football (by Australian standards) is far more popular than soccer, no matter how much the association football fans, who can become quite rabid in their support of the game, wish it weren't. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll summarise AussieLegend's post. SilentBilly, stop calling it football, and you might get somewhere. HiLo48 (talk) 22:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, soccer (not football, hence socceroos) is much more important internationally then real aussie footy, it is not as important in Australia. Sure Australians have mentioned it alot lately, but that's because we made it to the world cup, and were once again unjustly treated by the refs :( But either way, don't attack other sports to try and raise yours (or other countries for that matter). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't intend denigrate other sports or countries but it is true to say that it is easier for a nation with a developed economy to dominate a sport where there are few other competitive national teams and where those teams are from countries with less developed economies and/or small populations. Also note that the term "Socceroos" is in fact a nickname, almost a hypocorism, and may be regarded a clever play on the last syllable of the common name given to many marsupials and the colloquialism "soccer". A number of Australia national teams have nicknames derived from the names commonly applied to marsupials eg the "Kangaroos:, the "Wallabies", the "Koalas" and the "Wallaroos". The name was made up by a journalist and used in his reports on an international tour made by the Australian national association football team in the 1960s to describe the team in a shorthand way in his match reports. Thus it is not a name made up by marketing people and has the stood the test of time and is more or less instantly recognisable in much the same way as "All Blacks" and "Springboks" are although it is obviously much less venerable and probably without the the same kudos. I can't quite see the issue with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear.Silent Billy (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

More than 10 countries play cricket, except some of them are excluded on grounds of competency from playing in Test cricket, same as the World Cup finals. If football was the same then the Pacific Islands, N Korea, Saudi etc would not be playing Test football either. Bangladesh is closer to winning the cricket world cup than Australia is to winning the football world cup. Two Bangladesh players would be picked in squads of all the other major countries. No Australian would get selected in a Brazil or Germany squad. SB, your belief that because a person likes something, they must regard is as the best and disrespect everything else is nonsense, else everyone would only barrack for the superpower teams. The listing is based on consistency success in the last 20 years, not four years, as otherwise things such as diving, aerial skiing, kayaking, and gymnastics would get in. Australia's ladies' gymnastics team has been coming in the top 10 and top 5 on occasions. Australia has been undefeated in 29 consec WC cricket matches, 28 wins. Obviously the teams are not the standard as Germany or the Netherlands, but at least half were not minnow teams; in football Australia hasn't even done that in Asian matches (JPN and Korea are the only competent teams) and made heavy work of Arab minnows, even losing to Iraq and Kuwait twice. In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia has beaten Japan twice and drawn twice in competitive matches in recent years so I guess that makes Japan a minnow too. Australia has also beaten England and beaten and drawn with the Netherlands in what you regard as an appropriate time frame - although these were friendlies. You should really recuse yourself from this matter - you are apparently someone who derives an income from writing about cricket and therefore it is in your interest to promote it. I see that Australia's much vaunted record in the now more or less moribund OD version of cricket includes wins against the powerhouses of Netherlands, Scotland and Ireland plus sundry teams from economically distressed and war torn areas. Your statement In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless smacks of the height of arrogance. Since when has it been not allowed to re-visit such matters here. Are you saying because you have made your mind up that that's the end of the matter? Silent Billy (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the problem here is caused by the fact that the article tries to list what sports Australia is strong in. Why must the article restrict itself to listing what Australia is good at? Soccer is an immensely popular world sport, and it doesn't seem unreasonable for this article to contain a sentence on Australia's performance in it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. This is true for all of the most popular world sports.

I propose we replace the commentary on what sports Australia is good at, with commentary on how Australia performs in the most popular world sports. I think such a change would remove the subjectivity on which this dispute is based, would be more informative to the reader, and no less concise.

Hesperian 02:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

So would we make comments on how many Australians speak Arabic, Chinese, Spanish etc, and how many can read/write as opposed to it. If things are mentioned because the world likes it regardless of its status in a given country, one would stick things in every Islamic country's page about how western pop is not allowed etc etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Hesperian that this could be a more profitable way of looking at the issue. There would also be nothing to prevent an addendum to the section to mention Sports particularly popular in Australia. Incidentally, population considered, there is nothing at all shabby about a top 20 soccer ranking and a narrow exit from the group stage of the World Cup. My last comment is added with the perspective that I am English, and an Australian resident.  Begoon^talk 02:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Two distinct aspects of sport need to be covered. The major international sports at which Australia is highly ranked are important, but also important are the sports in which a lot of Australians participate or watch. Obviously Australian football is hugely popular outside NSW and Qld, because it involves a lot of the population, so it should be mentioned because of its cultural impact, but it would not crack a mention if only international success was counted. HiLo48 (talk) 02:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense.  Begoon^talk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Only if no common sense is applied. We're talking about a basic structure, not a mandatory list. You've chosen lots of "reductio ad absurdum" examples to make your point, which is fair enough, but nobody suggested anything like that. All that was said was - start with a discussion of how Australia performs in popular World sports (maybe "where the World sport can, with common sense, be viewed as relevant to Australia" should have been added.) - then go on to discuss other sports of particular significance to Australia itself. It was an idea to give some shape and context, and as such it's a good idea IMO.  Begoon^talk 03:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Hesperian and Begoon on this, noting that cricket is an international sport. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Strangely, you'll get no argument from this Englishman in Australia against cricket being a popular, international sport :-)  Begoon^talk 04:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You really are being silly YM. The question of whether one player or another would be good enough to make another nation's team is entirely subjective. In any event a national team does not always inculde the "best" players available for selection - there are other factors that come into play as national cricket team selections amply demonstrate. In cricket and most of the other sports you suggest Australia is "strong" in are only played by a few countries at first class level and for most readers of this article are likely an irrelevancy. Let's try to make the article relevant and tell people about Australia's strength in a sport that is followed by more people than all the "strong" sports combined. Silent Billy (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Billy - there should be something in the article about soccer, but what you are trying to add is far too much. Just a simple mention of the rankings is enough. HiLo48 (talk) 06:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I added the detail because YM originally said that there was nothing verifiable in the statement that Australia's national association football teams are "strong". Silent Billy (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

How is Socceroos have more space than even swimming any sort of argument for the non-inclusion of the information? If we are really worried about the size of the article then lets move everything off to Sport in Australia. Silent Billy (talk) 07:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

A quick summary should be fine for soccer I think. Slightly changed Billy's input (without citation for now)

"Australia's national soccer teams have in recent years increased in their international standing; the men's national team has been officially ranked in the top 30 nations since June 2009, whilst the women's national team has been ranked in the top 20 since 2003." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

That seems to have the basic rankings and state that it is recent compared to other sports Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless there is some hugely cogent argument aginst I will add that sentence in the near future. Silent Billy (talk) 23:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah there is. Those rankings are projections based on the computer guessing and extrapolating. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Foreign relations and military - Too high?

It just seems to me that for an Australia article the "Foreign relations and military" section is too high up, and comes before information that seems more relevant to Australia in general. The only reason I can see why it would be that far up is because it does to some degree make sense for it to be after the sections on politics, but I still would say other sections like geography and climate would make more sense to come before Foreign relations and military.

I quickly looked through the history and discussion archives for this article and I couldn't find anyone bringing this up, so sorry if it has been before. It just doesn't seem right to me. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it's up there because Australia is geopolitically important, and as you said because it is after politics. Furthermore, this seems to be the convention across country articles. I'm sure there's a country template somewhere that is used for such articles, but I don't know where it is. I'm sure if more editors agree with you it could be changed though, as one could argue that as it covers a continent (ooh debate right there) that its climate and geography are more important. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

No one else has weighed in, so I guess we can assume it was only me who felt that this wasn't right. No point worrying about it then.Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Linkrot not Cultural Institutions

From External links

• Cultural Institutions
  

suggest:

• The Culture Portal
  --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 202.81.69.153, 5 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please amend the reference that the Aborigines have inhabited Australia for 40,0000 years.

The Aborigines refer to the time before Europeans as 'the dreamtime'. Thank you.

202.81.69.153 (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: The article already links to: Indigenous_Australians, and the information you requested to add is already suitably included at Indigenous_Australians#Belief_systems. Thanks  Begoon^talk 11:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"Association football (soccer)" rather than just "soccer"

Could I please have some help here. I have changed the word "soccer" to "Association football (soccer)" but "Yellow Monkey" has once again reverted and is now accusing me of being a troll. "Association football" is the proper description of the game and the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as using, I dunno, "Paddy" to describe a person of Irish origin. There is no evidence that the term "soccer" is used any more commonly to describe the game in Australia - certainly outside of Victoria and Tasmania. Is there some sort of adjudication process we can put this up to? Silent Billy (talk) 00:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

In the northern states of Australia Aussie Rules football is referred to as 'AFL', should we thus use AFL in reference to the sport on all wikipadia pages? No. The recognised name of the code is association football, and that that is what it should be referred to on all wikipedia pages regardless of local colloqualisms in which specific codes are referred to solely as football. If people do not know what association football is, then they need to educate themselves. An encyclopedia is the means to achieve that. Calling the sport 'soccer' in articles is akin to referring to Kevin Rudd as 'KRUDD' in any article relating to him. It is offensive because he deserves to be recongised officially by his proper name. "Yellow Monkey" needs to drop the ignorant agenda. Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:ENGVAR why not this [[Association football|soccer]], is the same sport. Tbhotch^{Talk C.}

Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.

You should be encouraged for stimulating debate; now we should wait for a consensus. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 01:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC) 01:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

That is inadequate. Association football is one of the most (if not the most) popular participation sports in the country and deserves a much more significant mention in this article then it currently receives. One unlinked, incorrect mention for such a significant sport is pathetic. Australian Rules for example is linked multiple times..yet it is the only sport in the lower section which is linked. I would not be happy with [[Association football|soccer]] soccer .. that is akin to listing aussie rules as [[australian rules football|AFL] [[australian rules football|AFL]. Association football is the politically correct name for the sport and that is how it should be written...include (soccer) for the sake of the simple folk but the sport is association football Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

As it says when editing this page, this page is in Australian English. The Australian English term is soccer. We have always said soccer, it is what is used in the maquarie dictionary. Football is British english, not Australian English, this page must be kept faithful to Australian English, its an article on Australia, not Britain. I'm sure most people will understand soccer, because its also the american english term. this article is in english, and 3/4 of the english speaking as a 1st language people in the world are from the US, and then if you add australian english which also uses soccer, youve got the vast majority of the eng speaking world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

It is football only in the UK, and maybe Ireland. In Australia the sport is called soccer, I didn't even know the term Association football before I found in on wikipedia, and I'm sure barely anyone in Australia does. It's only the 4th most popular sport "football" sport in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Good on you Chips for admitting your former ignorance. But the fact that you apparently were so poorly read that you had not heard of the term "association football" is not a argument for the use of the term "soccer" in the article. Where is there evidence for your proposition that the game is known as "football" only in two countries? Silent Billy (talk) 03:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

In Australian articles we use the terms used in Australia and not elsewhere. Even SBS uses soccer. Bidgee (talk) 03:07, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I do know (as I am sure that you do) that "Association football" is not as commonly used to refer to the code as "football" is. The Roar and SMH refer to "Association football" as "football" for starters. Silent Billy (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

SIlent Billy - How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hilo48 - a lot of Australians don't live in Victoria and have no wish to either. Silent Billy (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Talk about Déjà vu. I'm sure we've been over this whole soccer thing before.

"the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" - Don't you think you're being overly dramatic here? How is using the common name for the game hirtful. Perhaps you should read the association football article which states in its opening sentence, "Association football, commonly known as football or soccer".

"the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football." - I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter bullshit. I turned 50 in December and, as far back as I can remember, it has always been called soccer in Australia, even by the fans, hence the "Soccerroos" and not the "Association footballoos". It's only been in recent years, when the sport has apparently started to become more popular here that the term "association football" has come into any use outside of the most rabid fans. Soccer clubs have always been called "football" or "soccer" clubs, never "association football" clubs.

The arguments you're using here really don't help give your arguments credibility. Getting so upset over the fact that soccer is the common name would be like me (an IT consultant) getting upset over many people calling the system unit of their PC a "hard drive". Just accept the truth and move on. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

sorry mate, you made your point very well without knowing it by saying "its football everywhere else". you are exactly right, its football everywhere else (except the usa) AND AUSTRALIA. its not the australian term, as used in the maquarie dictionary or by the vast majority of australians, you dug your own grave on this one mate, sorry. soccer it stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 00:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The argument about soccer v football from a linguistic perspective is of course easy. Yes in some countries, we need addendums to distinguish between different types of football. But this isn't the heart of the matter. The question is one of dominance.

The eggball aficionados are suggesting 'soccer' is fine as a differentiator on the assumption that something else in its vicinity, will be called "football". They perpetuates the key semantic property of 'soccer' - it unalterable sense of "otherness". If he makes the argument that NOTHING should be called football and every code should have its own handle, then so be it, but as it stands, this isn't the case.

I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion, or vice as many saw it. It contained none of the Edwardian values of Rugby Football, and therefore didn't deserve the word football. So much of the meaning behind "soccer" when South African's use it, is about otherness, of minority, of difference, of inferiority. Likewise, if an Irishman likes "Association football", he'll call it "football". If he hates it, or if he equates football with British imperialism and an affront to his sense of independence, he'll call it "soccer".

In the six letters of "soccer" is imbued a put down that can only be explained through an understanding of semantics, and putting it into historical context. When "soccer" is used by football supporters, it rolls unceremoniously off the tongue. But when used by its many detractors, it is punctuated and bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."

"Soccer" is a dirty word. It is used to symbolise the past problems of the sport in Australia. When "soccer" was the word commonly used in Australia by the code itself it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters", today that has changed - "football" is the right term to use.

The fallaciousness of the argument put by the Victorians above that their usage should be adopted by the whole of Australia is laughably self evident.

I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here. That must be because it does not actually support his argument (you're not the only one with a sub maaaaaaaaaate) Silent Billy (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

An example of how the word "soccer" has evolved and is is used as vindictive insult in Victoria appears on the Melbourne tabloid website: ... most Aussies still see Soccer as the backward foreign ehtnicgame. Silent Billy (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." A rather lame personal attack but no I'm not weak since adding copyrighted content will get myself blocked, I suggest you get the MD or get an account online. Bidgee (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Billy - I find it hurtful when paranoid bullies completely ignore my seriously thought out contributions. So I will post again, hoping you will pay some attention this time.

How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it." - have you got a verifiable source for that? It's a ridiculous thing to claim. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course I don't have a verifiable source for what I said Billy, apart from living here for 60+ years. I don't need a source. I spoke common sense. I spoke from experience. If you still want to fight over this, I think YOU need a verifiable source that tells us some Victorians ARE hurt by the name soccer. Maybe you could start by checking with all the clubs called soccer clubs. Stop making such a big issue over this. I like soccer. I played it as a kid. The town I lived in had the state league champions one year. The local soccer club. We were all very proud. It just makes no sense to call it football here. So let's go with Association football when discussing Australia. (I'm quite happy with the name Australian football for the local code too. It would be dumb to call it simply football.) We have four professional sports called football here, and at least two others played at amateur level. No-one owns the name football in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"The eggball aficionados" - I'm afraid your non-NPOV slip is showing. Have you already forgotten "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" and "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football"? "Eggball" isn't a recognised nickname for any sport that I'm aware. Why should you expect others to use official names when you clearly can't do the same?

"I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion" - I'm not sure what South Africa has to do with anything. According to both Association football and Names for association football, the term soccer originated in England, first appearing in the 1880s as an Oxford "-er" abbreviation of the word "association".

"bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."" - "Our" vernacular? I assume you must be American.

""Soccer" is a dirty word." - In your opinion. Soccer is widely used throughout the world. From Association football: "Today the sport is known as football in English-speaking countries in which it is the most popular football code; where other codes are more popular, the sport is more commonly referred to as soccer." From Names for association football: "The term association football has never been widely used, although in England some clubs in rugby league strongholds adopted the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) to avoid confusion with the dominant sport in their area."

"it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters"," - When would that have been? Soccer has been popular in Australia for Australia as long as I can remember, although it has always been overshadowed by league. I've never heard it referred to in the derogatory manner that you've used, although I have occasionally heard it to as "wogball", mainly because it was primarily popular with immigrants from Europe.

"I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." - Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. That sort of tone is uncivil. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to have used the term "eggball" but my intention was to point out that one could use a pejorative term for the rugby and Australian rules codes. Silent Billy (talk) 03:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Back on to topic, I think it should be called soccer in articles about australia, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the Australian team is called Socceroos, which says alot. I myself have no problem with calling it football, and I do sometimes, depending on the context (such as when watching the world cup). It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. So in the article we should leave it as such. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. - do you have a verifiable source for this? Silent Billy (talk) 11:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Rowe, David (2003) "Sport and the Repudiation of the Global" International Review for the Sociology of Sport 38:3.4 "In countries where it is known as ‘soccer’, like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US, the linguistic marker signifies that it is not the dominant code of football." - Bilby (talk) 12:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Google hits don't mean much. Many of those hits refer specifically to the book, Put it in inverted commas and there are 8,350 hits. A search on my first attempt to be elected to parliament got 100,000 hits, without specifying the electorate got 157,000. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That supporters of one code use disparaging terms to describe another, or its supporters, is hardly news. Our Billy did it himself with eggball up above. Australians have been very creative over the years with terms to insult other forms of football. HiLo48 (talk) 04:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow - what a waste of valuable collective editing time. And a generally uncivil one at that too. There must be at least 30 posts in this section. Would it not be better for editors to spend their (presumably limited) editing time doing something more constructive? --Merbabu (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Just had a look at Silent Billy's Talk page. He has already been repeatedly warned for disruptive editing around the word soccer. While he clearly generally makes a valuable contribution to Wikipedia, his unrealistic obsession with eliminating that word from Australian usage is clearly on display. I don't think we have a tool in Wikipedia to ban people from using a particular word in their edits. It would avoid these troll discussions if we could. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

SilentBilly says it was all a misunderstanding, and it was sorted out later. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you thought this argument was over but I'm starting it again. Association football should be used not "soccer". "Soccer" is a colloquial term that has only become the proper term in America. No official bodies in Australia use the term "soccer". Just football is the official name in Australia but to disambiguate it from other forms of football, association football can be used. "Soccer" was the official name in Australia until the last 10 or so years when it was changed. That's the reason so many (especially older) people still call it "soccer". It's those people who prevent Australia from moving into the present. In an encyclopaedia, the sports correct name should be used. "Soccer" is offensive to those who love the sport and "football" is confusing to those who like one of football's derivatives. Association football should be used as a neutral term. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Australian team's official nickname is the Socceroos. The sport of Association football is known as soccer in Australia. Colloquialism's fulfill WP:COMMONNAME anyway. This talk about moving Australia into the present is quite POV. Saying soccer is offensive to those who love the sport is just plain wrong. I know plenty of Australians who enjoy the game, and call it Soccer. Soccer is the term used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, the attempt to rebrand the sport as Association Football, which mostly seems to be a marketing move to take the ethnic overtones from the sport, only stems from the 2003 Crawford Report. While the national body accepted the recommendation, the rebranding process has only been going for a few years. It would appear that the rebranding is having an impact, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that soccer has been replaced in common usage, and quite a bit to suggest that it hasn't been. I guess there's still an argument that we should go with what the offcial bodies now use, but I'm more inclined to go with common parlance, myself. - Bilby (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I would regard the clubs that call themselves soccer clubs as official bodies. Many towns and suburbs in Victoria, Tasmania, SA, WA and NT have soccer and football clubs, the latter playing Australian football. The soccer clubs are unlikely to rename themselves to be football clubs in those situations. HiLo48 (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

What I find offensive is somebody having the audacity to claim that the older people are preventing Australia from moving into the present simply because they use a term that has been in wide use for over a hundred years. It reminds me of the new neighbour who moves in next door, turns his rap music up at 2am and parks across your driveway and then tells you that you need to change. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but there would be remedies for the incumbent neighbour. But what if the incumbent had a dog that was in the habit of leaving a daily deposit on the new neighbour's doorstep and had been doing so for years. Would the new neighbour just have to grin and clean it up each day or would he be justified in asking the incumbent to control his dog? Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've missed the point entirely. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

You were the one who started with the neighbour analogy. I just wanted to point out that one could take it to its absurd limit. I had hped that gentle irony might be the way to do that. Silent Billy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to blame the older generation for not allowing Australia to move on, then you have to blame the younger generation (of which I'm a part of) as well, because I have never heard anyone refer to Soccer as Association football. I've even heard many people argue that it is only and should only be known as Soccer. Of course, that is based on my personal experience only, but that's why I find it hard to believe your claim that the younger generation accepts Association football as the name and the older generation is holding us back. Anoldtreeok (talk) 00:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not having a go at any generation but it has to be said that if you have not heard of "Association football" that really is your problem. I am sure that you could find people who would insist that gays should be described as "p-------" but that wouldn't mean that we should change Wp to suit them would it? Silent Billy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

uninvolved editors views

After reading this long and arduous discussion..i see valid points on both sides...That being said i have never heard anyone anywhere refer to the sport as "Association football". What i see is an attempt to change socially view on the subject by rewording the term. From what i have seem here on wiki about the history it is clearly called soccer for many generations and only recently has the term "Association football" been implemented by the new governing body. So here at wikipidia we should use the term that has meaning to the majority of people. It is nice to see the governing body trying to change this but its clealy not a wide view yet despite the attempts to push this view threw. I have also never heard anyone refer to "Soccer" as an offensive term. Would it be possible to see a reference to this fact, because i have not seen one reference to indicate that any of this view are noting but personal feelings. In fact i see no references for anything. As for linking Association football don't you guys think its best to link to your countries governing body and not the general term...As an over view article you should try to link to just your counties sub-subject and not the main article. Moxy (talk) 15:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

This article in the Sydney Morning Herald suggests that there may be flaws in your analysis. Silent Billy (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, Craig Foster, ex-SOCCERoo, writing for the SMH says so. Let's be realistic about the football and linguistic divide in Australia. All need to look at the Barassi Line. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed Craig Foster is a former Socceroo. However the term "socceroo" is applied to the senior mens' national football team and has a history of around 43 years attached to it. But just because that is the team name does not mean that the game's proper name is "soccer" which as you well know is a colloquialism. Like wise you may or may not be aware that the senior mens' international rubgy league team are called the "Kangaroos" but that doesn;t mean we should call that football code "kanga" does it? Silent Billy (talk) 02:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on ignoring most of my post, particularly the bit that pointed out that in more than half the country soccer is NOT a colloquialism. That you cannot recognise that is very sad. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Google search term	Google hits
soccer site:au	2,240,000 (99.57%)
"association football" site:au	9780 (0.43%)

Enough said, I think. Hesperian 04:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I know that Football Federation Australia are trying to promote the term 'football' over 'soccer', but that has failed to really penetrate as yet. Realistically, the primary code is the one known as "football" - hence rugby league in NSW and Queensland, and AFL elsewhere. I do detect the beginnings of change but it will be a long way before the default reaction to calling soccer football is a perplexed look requiring the talker to explain...Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that even the Football Federation of Victoria are happy to use the term "soccer" as in It has had several name changes over the years, but has survived as the governing body of soccer in Victoria since this time. and In order to provide for the future development of women's soccer...FFV So it can't be as offensive as some claim. Soccer is clearly the term most Aussies use, just look at the media. --Michael Johnson (talk) 06:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that you can use what passes for the "media" in Melbourne as your sample. You do appreciate that the self-absorbed provincialism of both the rags and the television stations is pretty much a laughing stock in the rest of Australia. There was a reason that they had to put the ABC's HQ in Sydney... there would have never been anything but coverage of Vic otherwise. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Straw poll

So after a long debate lets look at what the consensus is here...although is seems pretty clear its soccer... For the record lets do this properly. I see 3 possibilities all that could link to Association football until you have an article called Australian soccer or Australian Association football. Ps I do think expanding articles related to this debate that clearly is real world should be updated or improved Football (word) and Names for association football.

1. Call it Association football
2. Call it Football
3. Call it Soccer

Soccer as it seems to be more prevalent (that is club names usage etc..)Moxy (talk) 06:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is the obvious, simple, unambiguous name for the game in Australia.(See below. Begoon convinced me.) My only qualification would be that some here (mostly one) have claimed that it is offensive and hurtful. It's certainly not where I come from, but if a reliable source saying that can be referenced from here, I would be happy to go with Association football. Just Football would be just silly, due to its ambiguity. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football - Explanation: I'm English, moved to Australia 15 years ago. I have no issue with the AFL or NRL guys appropriating "football" and "footy" - those are the local sports, and that's only natural. However, for an international encyclopedia, I think the international term should be used - regardless of the page being written in "Australian English" (I'm unclear how anyone could decide what is or isn't officially in the Australian English dialect.) As a round ball fan, I confess I cringe every time I hear the term soccer, and I think the wishes of the people who follow the sport, and those involved in the sport, which, from the linked article and other stuff I've seen, are clearly to move away from the name, should be given some weight, particularly since all they want is for the worldwide consensus to prevail. There you go - that's a "semi insider, semi outsider" view. I'm only voting because you placed a poll - I certainly shan't be joining in all the madcap fun you've had in the rest of this discussion - it's not that important to me, and I certainly don't expect this view to prevail :-)  Begoon^talk 07:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Begoon - Exactly why do you cringe? Genuine question. As I said, it's not cringeworthy where I come from (Victoria), but I'm open to a good explanation. I'm looking for a rational answer. Previous anti-soccer campaigners in this discussion weren't great for the cause. HiLo48 (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok - I'll try to explain - but that's all - I'm not letting you loons drag me into this :-) The problem is that it just seems to me that, given "soccer" is only originally an abbreviation of "Association", it can feel derogatory to those involved. The proper, internationally accepted name is Association Football, hell, Soccer even redirects there... It feels somehow dismissive, or second class to have one of the world's most popular sports referred to this way. But then I grew up in England, and the cringing probably comes from hearing Americans use the term, and feeling a little hurt that they couldn't even use the proper name for my favourite sport. It's not anything concrete that I can directly explain, but I can guarantee you there are a lot of people who would understand. Anyway - that wasn't the real reason for my vote - using the proper name was - I'd rather see a direct link than a disambig or redirect, or soccer piped. As I say, I know the Aussies frequenting this page won't largely agree - I live here (lol)  Begoon^talk 07:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football - Amended vote. I can rise above the loon insult and accept Begoon's explanation! (It helps that it's the American usage that annoys him. It would annoy me too.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone - I don't think there's much doubt which way the vote will go. However, just to demonstrate that statistics can show all sorts of things, I found it fascinating that, after looking at Hesperian's numbers above, I did a Google for just the term football, using the Google "Pages from Australia" link. When you actually look what sport the top 10 results were about (ignoring the "businesses bit" that comes up, though they did split about the same...):

No.1 AFL

No. 2,3,4,5,6 - Round ball

No. 7,8,9,10 - AFL

The next 10 were split 5/5 too.

Not saying it means anything at all, but surprised me nevertheless.  Begoon^talk 09:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow that's really interesting. Now I really wish I knew googles search algorithm. I would hazard a guess to say that those are probably mostly official/club/team websites? Do rugby league/union groups call their game football? I've actually never heard it called that, and I've lived in Brisbane. Actually, never really heard AFL being called football without the Australian in front of it, usually the highly colloquial footy ;) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No, not really club sites - of the first 5 - Football Australia's site, Fox Sports results, Craig Foster's article, Football NSW, and SBS World Cup 2010 website - so actually, not a club site in there. AFL had Carlton/Richmond for 2/5 club sites - one to the AFL, one to AFL Victoria and one to an AFL chat site.  Begoon^talk 10:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Calling Australian football "AFL" is what makes me cringe. And it's worse than calling association football "soccer", because in the history of Australia football, it has never been called AFL until recently, when the Sydney media — which is dominant in this country — needed to call the sport something other than football, because up there rugby league and soccer are both called "football" — particularly by fans of those respective sports. So, as the AFL dominates Australian football, they call the sport by that dominant organisation, but by going along with this logic rugby league and soccer should be called "NRL" and "A-league or FFA" respectively. My point is, though, that you have to accept that some people are going to call the sport something other than what you would prefer, however incorrect that it might be in your mind, you have to accept that it's used and move on. BTW I'd rather use "association football" for soccer and "Australian football" for Australian rules football, but according to the manual of style for names the preference is for common names and whether you like it or not soccer is the most common name for the sport in this country, and probably in the English speaking world. --124.180.40.91 (talk) 14:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely, I agree that we need to accept the consensus, I think if you look at my posts you'll see I've been very clear on that. I'm also sorry if my using AFL was "cringeworthy" to you. I'm English, and have lived in NSW for 15 years, so have had very limited exposure to that form of the game. I merely used the term because I was describing the Google Search results, and that's what they used. I am 100% in favour of consensus being followed - all I've done is share my personal opinion, knowing it would be bound to be minority here, as my contribution to the forming of that consensus. I've not, I hope, implied at all that I won't "accept that some people are going to call the sport something other than what (I) would prefer". If I gave that impression, I'm truly sorry - it certainly was not my intention.  Begoon^talk 14:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

What do you call "recently"? When I lived in Melbourne in the late 70s it was called "VFL". The change to AFL started in the '80s, when other states started competing more against Victorian clubs. It certainly wasn't driven by the Sydney media; at that time VFL was treated as a virus in NSW, with supporters being shunned, and coverage being almost nil. --AussieLegend (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - It's the common name. Calling it association football makes me cringe. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - I definitely do appreciate the counter arguments offered, and know quite well the cringing at perceived 'american words' ;) (note on that: soccer was actually a term invented in England, to distinguish the two types of 'Football', Association Football [soccer] and Rugby [Ruggers]!) However, I don't think Association Football, is the common name worldwide or in Australia. It is usually either Football or Soccer. The Association football page was named that way to prevent either side erupting in a huge war over the name, and it quite a good compromise there. However, I do think that this article should reflect the main usage of the country in question, which although officially changed by some of the clubs, is still soccer. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer Pretty much per the statistics posted by Hesperian. It's clearly the common name for the sport in Australia. Nick-D (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer Given that we've resorted to polling, I guess I don't need to give a reason - except to say, that it is by far the most common name. --Merbabu (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer From the information presented, it seems to be more common. SCΛRECROW 09:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer. The most commonly used name.--Dmol (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football – obviously no one calls it "association football" because it's long and doesn't sound good. People either call it football or soccer. Football would be confusing for Australians so association football seems a good compromise and no one can argue it is not called association football. In fact, official bodies only call it football, but the first word is for the sake of disambiguating it. As for the point about football clubs calling themselves "soccer clubs", that's because they named themselves before the official change. My two local football clubs merged together several years ago and when they named the new club, they had to end the name with "Football Club". "Soccer" is a nickname and not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. I am also English living in Australia and "soccer" makes me cringe for the same reason as Begoon. "Soccer" is an American word and the sport is called football in Australia so "soccer" is not Australian English. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 10:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is what people call the sport. Soccer is not an american word! They're just the common example of the users of that name. Besides, soccer was an official word of the Australian clubs until very recently, so it's not exactly a nickname. It hasn't moved into common usage yet.Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Likewise. I can't help myself. Soccer is NOT a nickname!!!!!!!!! It's NOT just an American name!!!!!! Where I live it's the proper, common and only name used for the game since it began in Australia over 100 years ago. Australian football started before soccer was codified in the UK. So, if a town around here has a football club, it will almost always be Australian football. The round ball club has to call itself the soccer club for uniqueness. No-one here is offended. No-one here cringes. I acknowledge that things are different elsewhere. I just wish the round ball bigots would appreciate and understand what the truth and reality is here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, they're both right, you know, soccer was an English abbreviation from Association, to disambiguate rugby. It just never caught on in England because the round ball game was so much more popular. It's perceived as American now because they picked it up to use as their own disambiguation from Gridiron. I still dislike it, though - for the personal prejudices I explained above, and if I had the choice I wouldn't use it in the article. I don't have the choice, though - and as I have to tolerate it on a regular basis in RL anyway, having it used here, whilst not being my preference, certainly won't make me lose any sleep  Begoon^talk 10:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Apologies about your personal preferences Begoon :) Believe me, I know how you feel. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised that "Soccer is American" is still being bandied about. Association football and Names for association football have been mentioned and linked to a number of times now. Maybe the association football fans should actually read the articles about the sport. --10:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It's still American, even if the word wasn't invented in America. "Honor" is the American spelling of "honour" but they didn't invent the spelling. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Honor is considered 'american' spelling, but that is because that is where it is most used. If you say something is 'american', it is implied that it is exclusively used there, or its current usage spread from there, like websters dropping of u's. Soccer came to Australia I think from Ireland, where people sometimes call it soccer due to Gaelic football. It is as 'australian' a word as it is 'american'. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - Calling it anything but what it is most commonly called in Australia makes little sense. Anoldtreeok (talk) 10:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Just a thought, though chaps - since the problem seems to be that the world mostly calls it one thing, but we want to preserve the local name - have we considered something for the first mention like:

• Association Football, historically referred to in Australia as Soccer to distinguish it from the two traditionally more popular local forms, AFL and Rugby League...

or

• Soccer, the historically used name in Australia for Association Football, used to distinguish it from the two traditionally more popular local forms, AFL and Rugby League...

and then referring to it as soccer on subsequent mentions? I know it seems like an awful mouthful, but if it were reworded a bit, maybe, it would serve to give a bit of history and information along with its verbosity, and, after all, as an encyclopedia, I guess that's the sort of historical and contextual information we might even be supposed to be giving here?  Begoon^talk 10:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It makes more sense to call it soccer, since everyone knows what that is and it's not a mouthful. --AussieLegend (talk) 10:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, ok, I edit conflicted with you adding the second line, but if you think the context and explanation for people who could be unaware of the reasons behind it is unencyclopedic, fair enough - that's why I was reluctant to join an argument between 2 names.  Begoon^talk 11:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the current debate is just about one tiny mention where soccer is just part of a list of sports played in Australia. There's no space for any contextual information. As an aside, I don't think the world mostly calls it anything. Within the english-speaking world, the majority probably call is Soccer (country and population wise). Within other areas, native names sometimes correspond with a literal translation of "Football", such as the tagalog "putbol", sometimes the correlation is less clear. In no way as simple as local vs international name! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No, that's fair enough - I was pretty much done here anyway. Just thought it worth mentioning that if it can provoke this much discussion on the talk page, maybe it was worth some context in the article. As I said, no doubt about which view will prevail - but it would have been nice if the article could benefit from these thousands of words here by more than just getting the "winning" name enshrined.  Begoon^talk 11:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer, per the Macquarie Dictionary. Soccer should remain until association football is used widely in Australia, which is not the case yet. Bidgee (talk) 11:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Bidgee the MD does not say that at all. Football is defined as ...any game in which the kicking of a ball has a large part... It then goes on the suggest that "soccer" is "preferred" in "general use" to describe Association football, but I am not sure what "preferred" means etymologically speaking as it were. Mind you this is after mentioning that the use of "football" for Association football is likely to cause a "shift in usage". It is hard to tell how old this entry is and if it is not recent then it is likely to be less authoritative. Silent Billy (talk) 11:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what you think, soccer is more widely used then "football" and "Association football". Even the Collins Dictionary uses "Soccer". Bidgee (talk) 11:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer. I don't care about what Australians use; I care about the reader's experience in reading the article. If we use soccer, everyone will know what it means, and some readers will cringe. If we use Association football, a substantial proportion of our readership will have no idea what we are talking about, and some of those who do will cringe. Soccer wins. Hesperian 11:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Who do you think the readership of the article is? I would suggest that is mainly non-Australians who in the mainly use "football" to describe the game, Has anyone got any reliable stats on this? By the way I would remind everyone that my point is that the game should be described as "association football (soccer)" and not just "soccer". Silent Billy (talk) 11:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. There's a famous journalism quote, the details of which escape me at the moment, but the gist is that people want to read what they already know. And it's true: we'd rather read page and pages of analysis of a football game we've already seen, than read about a match we didn't get to see. I would say that the readership of this article is overwhelmingly Australian. Hesperian 12:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Just say if 5000 people from the US read the article and only 2000 people from Australia doesn't mean we should use US English, fact is we use Australian English (spelling, terms, ect). Bidgee (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football is it's correct name. Changing it to an Americanised nick name is simply ridiculous Cbowden9000 (talk) 12:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not an 'american' name. See Names for association football Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Déjà vu again.[2] --AussieLegend (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer, as per the Macquarie, it's obviously the Australian English term, the FFA's push of "Football" is simply a re-branding attempt, which of itself should not be viewed as overriding accepted usage by the bulk of the population. --Barkly St End (talk) 13:56, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The definition of "football" in the MD is full described elsewhere here. Its usage is not limited to Australian Rules or any other code for that matter. I am just arguing that we should use the term "Association football (soccer)" here rather than just "soccer". 01:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Billy (talk • contribs)

Association football, as it's already in use throughout multiple articles related to Football in Australia, including the title of the article regarding the national team, the article regarding the sport as a whole in Australia, articles regarding under-age national teams also use Association Football. It's also written as Association Football (soccer) on the "Sport in Australia" template . If people here wanted it to remain soccer, they should've participated in the debates that took place when these articles were being created. I should also point out that 'soccer' is currently a redirect to Association football, and wiki policy as it stands is to use Association Football.Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're suggesting that it is 'wiki policy' to refer to things only by their article name, then you are mistaken. Hesperian 01:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Good example of other stuff exists, just because those articles use doesn't mean the consensus is Association football. Also what policy states we have to use Association football even though the common name is Soccer? Bidgee (talk) 01:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer because of context. Most readers would know exactly what it means, even if they don't like it. Plus it is the most common Australian term for the sport. "Football" is clearly not available, and "Association football" is not a common name for the game, just reading the article without following the link will leave many people confused (altho I argued for it as title for the main article of the sport - but there the context is different). --Michael Johnson (talk) 02:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• Soccer because of its prevalent use in Australia, and to varying extents in other English language countries (this being the English language wikipedia). Notwithstanding what the associations themselves now call themselves, "soccer" is the commonly understood and used name for the game in (I believe) Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States. If anyone in, say, the UK doesn't know what soccer is, surely the simple piped link will set them straight in a second. It is also the case that an Australian lay reader who does not follow sport (a category into which I generally fall) would probably not know what "association football" actually was - whereas the reverse situation is unlikely to obtain (I doubt a British lay reader would suffer the same problem with "soccer"). hamiltonstone (talk) 04:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment But that is why I suggested the use of "Association football (soccer)". I notice that option has been, conveniently, left off this "straw poll" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Billy (talk • contribs) 22:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

So in conclusion it is clear that Soccer has the majority view....that being said I welcome further discussion on the matter if and when a WIDE variety of credible sources are available to change peoples minds. Moxy (talk) 15:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

• Soccer for the time being as that is what it is most widely called. Many words have their origins as colloquialisms. Football Federation Australia are trying their hardest to convert everyone to the term 'Football' for Soccer and the use is starting to creep in, but is a long way from general acceptance. We can easily revisit this in two years' time. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's hope it never becomes popular. Imagine the confusion when trying to explain that the three most common types of football in Australia are Aussie Rules, rugby league and football. Can't they use a non-generic term like, oh, I don't know, soccer? Or something trendy like iGame 2.0 --AussieLegend (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

"Association football (soccer)" please, it covers the reality perfectly. 'Football' is the official, formal name for the sport (Football Federation Australia etc...), though 'Association Football' can be used when needed to differentiate from another particular 'football code' in this country. It's the reality of our 'football' landscape these days, which ofcourse involves many 'codes of football.' But we also have the historic, colloquial use of Soccer I guess, which even reflects in the names of a number of clubs around the country. The reality is both co-exist and reflects the complex make up of our complex footballing landscape. It's not an either or - it can be both. "Association football (soccer)" covers the context of this well enough for the time being and most people can understand, follow, what that means, even if they aren't an 'Association Football/Soccer' fan. Xfiles82 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is NOT colloquial! It was the ONLY name ever used for the game in more than half of Australia up until the past ten years. It was part of the name of EVERY club that played it. Officially registered club names! A word used that way is NOT a colloquialism, no matter what a group of Sydney based businessmen try to impose on the rest of the country. HiLo48 (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment HilO48 you are not being entirely accurate. In Witionary the definition is Colloquial abbreviation for Association football, via abbreviation Assoc. +‎ -er (“(slang suffix)”); earlier socca (1889), then socker (1891), with soccer attested 1895. The Online Etymology Dictionary states that is was originally university slang (with jocular formation -er (3)), from a shortened form of Assoc. Your actual OED states Introduced from Rugby School into Oxford University slang, orig. at University College, in Michaelmas Term, 1875. The ten or so printed dictionaries eg Chambers 20th Century all give it as a "colloquial". Can you cite any dictionary where this not stated explicitly or implicitly. Amateur etymology, rewriting of history and exclamation marks do not an argument make. Silent Billy (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes Billy. The Macquarie Dictionary, being exclusively Australian, is the ideal source for this purpose. No need to give the whole definition. It's the obvious one about 11 players, spherical ball, no hands, etc. The important part is that it simply describes soccer as a noun. Not colloquial. Not slang. So, an Australian dictionary agrees with what I say the usage is in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and just to highlight that Macquarie is happy to call a word colloquial when it is, it says exactly that about footy, footie, wogball, and several other less "correct" words. But not soccer. HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

According to the Shorter Oxford, soccer is "[ORIGIN Aphet. from Assoc. (abbreviation of Association) + -er⁶.] Football as played under Association rules; Association football." No mention of slang. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

(Similarly to HiLo48's comment above re Macquarie and colloquial) The SOED does not describe soccer as colloquial, but it does (for example) describe footy (Football. Chiefly Austral. & NZ.) as colloquial. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - it's what the sport is known as by the vast majority of Australians and the name clearly distinguishes itself from the other codes. The word Soccer is the abbreviation of Association Football anyhow so having both names together is stupidly repeating the same thing twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.56.91.171 (talk) 17:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

So "European Union (EU)" and "United Nations (UN)" are stupid as well? McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 14:41, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Poor example. You're comparing initials to words. Instead try "Automobile (car)". --AussieLegend (talk) 14:53, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• Call it soccer. Soccer, the beautiful game, is the only thing the people call it. Football is rugby (with arguments over league and union), the game they play in heaven. "Association football" only comes up in trivia competitions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

NSW foundation date

Formally, it happened on 7 February 1788, not on 26 January 1788. See Governor of New South Wales: "Captain Arthur Phillip assumed office as Governor of New South Wales on 7 February 1788, when the Colony of New South Wales, the first British settlement in Australia, was formally founded".

I guess we still have to mention 26 January 1788, being the significant date as far as the history of the (small c) colony is concerned, but we must not mislead readers about the true facts. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Independence section in table

The independence section has been changed to include dates such as the statute of westminster (1941) and the australia act (1986)

we became independent in 1901, and any of these other dates are confusing and misleading.

the statute of westminster just meant that all commonwealth countries were considered equals with the UK

the australia act meant that state privy councils (in law) couldnt appeal to a commonwealth court (which they hadnt done for many many many years)

these are really just pieces of random legislation that do not relate to the date we became a nation.

remove. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 22:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It hasn't been changed recently, it's been like that for a long time. A previous and extremely lengthy discussion confirmed that issues such as the Statute of Westminster are important. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

They may be important, but not enough to be included in that particular location. The version in the article text (history section) is accurate and helpful. In terms of headline summary data (without explanation), I would have said the table data is confusing. I agree with Saruman that the single independence date of 1901 would be a more accurate summary reflection of reality. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It's confusing because we didn't become independent in a single event. In a nutshell, the constitution created the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave us important powers that we didn't have before WWII and the Australia Act finally gave us full independence. The Statute of Westminster Adoption Act was forced into the article after the lengthy discussion of which I spoke. That can probably go but the other three are all extremely significant to when we gained our independence, which wasn't complete until the Australia Act. Claiming that we gained our independence on any single date is misleading. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

You are entirely correct, but it is a summary claim which is not misleading. As the article itself points out, for example, the privy council appeal powers were already largely present in name only by the time they were formally rescinded. The data as presented in the template table offers no explanation (and cannot, given the available space) as to why we are suggesting Australia has four independence dates. Australia became a sovereign country in 1901, and all explanations of the extent to which that should be qualified already accurately exist in the body text. The template table should be about providing meaningful information to a reader, not information that will confuse them. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

AussieLegend is correct. That powers were not used is not to say they could not have been, and the formal date of their repeal is really the only relevant date. To say that "Australia became a sovereign country in 1901" is also incorrect, at least in the way we understand it today. True Australia became a single nation in 1901, but legally the relationship with the UK was little different than that which had previously existed with the several self-governing colonies. Until the adoption of the Statute of Westminster, the UK could have repealed self-government at any time. Absurd? Not at all, look at the case of Newfoundland, for instance. When Menzies said in 1939 "Britain is at war, therefore Australia is at war", he was just stating what everybody took for granted, Australians, Britains, and if they thought about it, even the Germans. Australian independence was an evolutionary process, not a product of revolutionary change, and to pick a single date is just misleading. --Michael Johnson (talk) 04:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Expression

I recently attempted to change

Aussie is common colloquially, as an adjective and noun for "Australian"

to

Aussie is a common colloquialism for the adjective and noun "Australian"

but was reverted by AussieLegend with "Previous version was correct". Other opinions would be welcome. Anthony (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Whilst I couldn't say the original version is grammatically incorrect, I believe that Anthony's version is better phrased. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 00:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Anthony's version is a cold, clinical analysis of the relationship between the words "Aussie" and "Australian" which is appropriate in a dictionary, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The current version is less clinical and more accurately represents how "Aussie" relates to "Australian", which is a more encyclopaedic treatment. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think Anthony's version reads much better Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:46, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I made the change per above discussion. [3] Anthony (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I still feel that a cold, clinical analysis of a word is not what is needed here. As I said, this is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Anthony's alternative sounds and scans better (now 4:1, I believe). There is no guideline that states analysis of a word should be warm and passionate as opposed to cold and clinical. WWGB (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I actually prefer "Aussie is a common colloquial term for "Australian"", because I don't really see the need to define or limit the parts of speech in such a simple statement. But if I'm not entitled to "write in" my candidate then Anthony's is marginally better, though I certainly wouldn't cross the street to argue about it :)  Begoon^talk 00:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Your suggestion makes more sense than either of the options. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Begoon's suggestion is an improvement on both previous options. Anthony (talk) 08:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok - I've altered it, in that case, as the discussion seems to have come to an end here.  Begoon^talk 03:18, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Capital cities template

First, I know this is better suited to the talk page for the template itself, or Norfolk Island or Kingston, but it seems more likely I'll get a response here.

Am I the only one who feels Kingston is inappropriate in this list? I think it should contain the capitals from only the 6 states and 2 mainland territories. And even if more are appropriate, I'd argue that territories like Christmas Island are better suited, as they have less self governance to my knowledge. I just thought it was strange that Norfolk was put up amongst the other states and territories without the other external territories. 124.170.88.172 (talk) 10:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Question answered (or at least responded to) in my post on the actual discussion page for this. Should I delete this here then? (Sorry, wasn't signed in when I posted this). Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia's strength in Football

Would somebody please explain to Yellow Monkey that Australia's FIFA rankings of 20 and 14 are more significant than of that the national cricket team (for instance) which only competes against 7 nations (and one combination) most of which are at best economical "developing" and most are emerging. Please stop him reverting my edits out of hand especially when he is a cricket fanatic and will not accept that it is not a significant sport internationally - at least not on the same scale as football or even rugby. Silent Billy (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Haven't been watching the reverts, but I would suggest that you too are taking a confrontational approach in wanting to call your favourite sport football in a country where it doesn't go by that name among the general public. Football can mean any of four codes in Australia, and soccer is NOT the most popular. Maybe a bit of give and take is needed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Even if Soccer may be bigger world wide, I'd still say Cricket is much much more significant in Australia than Soccer. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

And Aussie rules/AFL, a game played only in this country, is more significant within Australia than either. :) Orderinchaos 10:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair dinkum you blokes are living in the 20th century. Australia's national football teams are ranked in the top 20 of ranked nations. That is they are "stronger" tan the very great majority of countries that participate in international competitions which is in both case greater than 120. The women's team are currently Asian champions. Cricket (Test) is played by just 10 participants most of which are either emerging economies, have minuscule populations, are not even nations or a combination of all three. If a first world country like Australia can't be "strong" against such sides then something would be very wrong. Likewise the other listed sports where Australia is supposedly "strong". In particular international RL is a joke as it has been since the 1970s. It is noticeable that sports where Australia used to be "strong" like golf and tennis are carefully excluded. As for cricket when the likes of Lara opine that the sport is dying and press reports in January this year suggested that CA was fudging attendance figures. The participation rates given by CA seem to be questionable too given that they include Kanga cricket etc. Silent Billy (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I must admit to not really being into football but I didn't know we had national football teams with international rankings. I know we have one in soccer, the Associationfootballoos or something like that. Oh no, that's right, they're called the Socceroos, because in Australia the game is most widely known as soccer, not association football. It's just as well, because "real" football (by Australian standards) is far more popular than soccer, no matter how much the association football fans, who can become quite rabid in their support of the game, wish it weren't. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll summarise AussieLegend's post. SilentBilly, stop calling it football, and you might get somewhere. HiLo48 (talk) 22:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, soccer (not football, hence socceroos) is much more important internationally then real aussie footy, it is not as important in Australia. Sure Australians have mentioned it alot lately, but that's because we made it to the world cup, and were once again unjustly treated by the refs :( But either way, don't attack other sports to try and raise yours (or other countries for that matter). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't intend denigrate other sports or countries but it is true to say that it is easier for a nation with a developed economy to dominate a sport where there are few other competitive national teams and where those teams are from countries with less developed economies and/or small populations. Also note that the term "Socceroos" is in fact a nickname, almost a hypocorism, and may be regarded a clever play on the last syllable of the common name given to many marsupials and the colloquialism "soccer". A number of Australia national teams have nicknames derived from the names commonly applied to marsupials eg the "Kangaroos:, the "Wallabies", the "Koalas" and the "Wallaroos". The name was made up by a journalist and used in his reports on an international tour made by the Australian national association football team in the 1960s to describe the team in a shorthand way in his match reports. Thus it is not a name made up by marketing people and has the stood the test of time and is more or less instantly recognisable in much the same way as "All Blacks" and "Springboks" are although it is obviously much less venerable and probably without the the same kudos. I can't quite see the issue with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear.Silent Billy (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

More than 10 countries play cricket, except some of them are excluded on grounds of competency from playing in Test cricket, same as the World Cup finals. If football was the same then the Pacific Islands, N Korea, Saudi etc would not be playing Test football either. Bangladesh is closer to winning the cricket world cup than Australia is to winning the football world cup. Two Bangladesh players would be picked in squads of all the other major countries. No Australian would get selected in a Brazil or Germany squad. SB, your belief that because a person likes something, they must regard is as the best and disrespect everything else is nonsense, else everyone would only barrack for the superpower teams. The listing is based on consistency success in the last 20 years, not four years, as otherwise things such as diving, aerial skiing, kayaking, and gymnastics would get in. Australia's ladies' gymnastics team has been coming in the top 10 and top 5 on occasions. Australia has been undefeated in 29 consec WC cricket matches, 28 wins. Obviously the teams are not the standard as Germany or the Netherlands, but at least half were not minnow teams; in football Australia hasn't even done that in Asian matches (JPN and Korea are the only competent teams) and made heavy work of Arab minnows, even losing to Iraq and Kuwait twice. In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia has beaten Japan twice and drawn twice in competitive matches in recent years so I guess that makes Japan a minnow too. Australia has also beaten England and beaten and drawn with the Netherlands in what you regard as an appropriate time frame - although these were friendlies. You should really recuse yourself from this matter - you are apparently someone who derives an income from writing about cricket and therefore it is in your interest to promote it. I see that Australia's much vaunted record in the now more or less moribund OD version of cricket includes wins against the powerhouses of Netherlands, Scotland and Ireland plus sundry teams from economically distressed and war torn areas. Your statement In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless smacks of the height of arrogance. Since when has it been not allowed to re-visit such matters here. Are you saying because you have made your mind up that that's the end of the matter? Silent Billy (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the problem here is caused by the fact that the article tries to list what sports Australia is strong in. Why must the article restrict itself to listing what Australia is good at? Soccer is an immensely popular world sport, and it doesn't seem unreasonable for this article to contain a sentence on Australia's performance in it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. This is true for all of the most popular world sports.

I propose we replace the commentary on what sports Australia is good at, with commentary on how Australia performs in the most popular world sports. I think such a change would remove the subjectivity on which this dispute is based, would be more informative to the reader, and no less concise.

Hesperian 02:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

So would we make comments on how many Australians speak Arabic, Chinese, Spanish etc, and how many can read/write as opposed to it. If things are mentioned because the world likes it regardless of its status in a given country, one would stick things in every Islamic country's page about how western pop is not allowed etc etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Hesperian that this could be a more profitable way of looking at the issue. There would also be nothing to prevent an addendum to the section to mention Sports particularly popular in Australia. Incidentally, population considered, there is nothing at all shabby about a top 20 soccer ranking and a narrow exit from the group stage of the World Cup. My last comment is added with the perspective that I am English, and an Australian resident.  Begoon^talk 02:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Two distinct aspects of sport need to be covered. The major international sports at which Australia is highly ranked are important, but also important are the sports in which a lot of Australians participate or watch. Obviously Australian football is hugely popular outside NSW and Qld, because it involves a lot of the population, so it should be mentioned because of its cultural impact, but it would not crack a mention if only international success was counted. HiLo48 (talk) 02:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense.  Begoon^talk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Only if no common sense is applied. We're talking about a basic structure, not a mandatory list. You've chosen lots of "reductio ad absurdum" examples to make your point, which is fair enough, but nobody suggested anything like that. All that was said was - start with a discussion of how Australia performs in popular World sports (maybe "where the World sport can, with common sense, be viewed as relevant to Australia" should have been added.) - then go on to discuss other sports of particular significance to Australia itself. It was an idea to give some shape and context, and as such it's a good idea IMO.  Begoon^talk 03:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Hesperian and Begoon on this, noting that cricket is an international sport. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Strangely, you'll get no argument from this Englishman in Australia against cricket being a popular, international sport :-)  Begoon^talk 04:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You really are being silly YM. The question of whether one player or another would be good enough to make another nation's team is entirely subjective. In any event a national team does not always inculde the "best" players available for selection - there are other factors that come into play as national cricket team selections amply demonstrate. In cricket and most of the other sports you suggest Australia is "strong" in are only played by a few countries at first class level and for most readers of this article are likely an irrelevancy. Let's try to make the article relevant and tell people about Australia's strength in a sport that is followed by more people than all the "strong" sports combined. Silent Billy (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Billy - there should be something in the article about soccer, but what you are trying to add is far too much. Just a simple mention of the rankings is enough. HiLo48 (talk) 06:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I added the detail because YM originally said that there was nothing verifiable in the statement that Australia's national association football teams are "strong". Silent Billy (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

How is Socceroos have more space than even swimming any sort of argument for the non-inclusion of the information? If we are really worried about the size of the article then lets move everything off to Sport in Australia. Silent Billy (talk) 07:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

A quick summary should be fine for soccer I think. Slightly changed Billy's input (without citation for now)

"Australia's national soccer teams have in recent years increased in their international standing; the men's national team has been officially ranked in the top 30 nations since June 2009, whilst the women's national team has been ranked in the top 20 since 2003." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

That seems to have the basic rankings and state that it is recent compared to other sports Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Unless there is some hugely cogent argument aginst I will add that sentence in the near future. Silent Billy (talk) 23:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah there is. Those rankings are projections based on the computer guessing and extrapolating. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Foreign relations and military - Too high?

It just seems to me that for an Australia article the "Foreign relations and military" section is too high up, and comes before information that seems more relevant to Australia in general. The only reason I can see why it would be that far up is because it does to some degree make sense for it to be after the sections on politics, but I still would say other sections like geography and climate would make more sense to come before Foreign relations and military.

I quickly looked through the history and discussion archives for this article and I couldn't find anyone bringing this up, so sorry if it has been before. It just doesn't seem right to me. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it's up there because Australia is geopolitically important, and as you said because it is after politics. Furthermore, this seems to be the convention across country articles. I'm sure there's a country template somewhere that is used for such articles, but I don't know where it is. I'm sure if more editors agree with you it could be changed though, as one could argue that as it covers a continent (ooh debate right there) that its climate and geography are more important. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

No one else has weighed in, so I guess we can assume it was only me who felt that this wasn't right. No point worrying about it then.Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Linkrot not Cultural Institutions

From External links

• Cultural Institutions
  

suggest:

• The Culture Portal
  --wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 202.81.69.153, 5 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please amend the reference that the Aborigines have inhabited Australia for 40,0000 years.

The Aborigines refer to the time before Europeans as 'the dreamtime'. Thank you.

202.81.69.153 (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: The article already links to: Indigenous_Australians, and the information you requested to add is already suitably included at Indigenous_Australians#Belief_systems. Thanks  Begoon^talk 11:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"Association football (soccer)" rather than just "soccer"

Could I please have some help here. I have changed the word "soccer" to "Association football (soccer)" but "Yellow Monkey" has once again reverted and is now accusing me of being a troll. "Association football" is the proper description of the game and the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as using, I dunno, "Paddy" to describe a person of Irish origin. There is no evidence that the term "soccer" is used any more commonly to describe the game in Australia - certainly outside of Victoria and Tasmania. Is there some sort of adjudication process we can put this up to? Silent Billy (talk) 00:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

In the northern states of Australia Aussie Rules football is referred to as 'AFL', should we thus use AFL in reference to the sport on all wikipadia pages? No. The recognised name of the code is association football, and that that is what it should be referred to on all wikipedia pages regardless of local colloqualisms in which specific codes are referred to solely as football. If people do not know what association football is, then they need to educate themselves. An encyclopedia is the means to achieve that. Calling the sport 'soccer' in articles is akin to referring to Kevin Rudd as 'KRUDD' in any article relating to him. It is offensive because he deserves to be recongised officially by his proper name. "Yellow Monkey" needs to drop the ignorant agenda. Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:ENGVAR why not this [[Association football|soccer]], is the same sport. Tbhotch^{Talk C.}

Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.

You should be encouraged for stimulating debate; now we should wait for a consensus. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 01:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC) 01:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

That is inadequate. Association football is one of the most (if not the most) popular participation sports in the country and deserves a much more significant mention in this article then it currently receives. One unlinked, incorrect mention for such a significant sport is pathetic. Australian Rules for example is linked multiple times..yet it is the only sport in the lower section which is linked. I would not be happy with [[Association football|soccer]] soccer .. that is akin to listing aussie rules as [[australian rules football|AFL] [[australian rules football|AFL]. Association football is the politically correct name for the sport and that is how it should be written...include (soccer) for the sake of the simple folk but the sport is association football Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

As it says when editing this page, this page is in Australian English. The Australian English term is soccer. We have always said soccer, it is what is used in the maquarie dictionary. Football is British english, not Australian English, this page must be kept faithful to Australian English, its an article on Australia, not Britain. I'm sure most people will understand soccer, because its also the american english term. this article is in english, and 3/4 of the english speaking as a 1st language people in the world are from the US, and then if you add australian english which also uses soccer, youve got the vast majority of the eng speaking world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

It is football only in the UK, and maybe Ireland. In Australia the sport is called soccer, I didn't even know the term Association football before I found in on wikipedia, and I'm sure barely anyone in Australia does. It's only the 4th most popular sport "football" sport in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Good on you Chips for admitting your former ignorance. But the fact that you apparently were so poorly read that you had not heard of the term "association football" is not a argument for the use of the term "soccer" in the article. Where is there evidence for your proposition that the game is known as "football" only in two countries? Silent Billy (talk) 03:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

In Australian articles we use the terms used in Australia and not elsewhere. Even SBS uses soccer. Bidgee (talk) 03:07, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I do know (as I am sure that you do) that "Association football" is not as commonly used to refer to the code as "football" is. The Roar and SMH refer to "Association football" as "football" for starters. Silent Billy (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

SIlent Billy - How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hilo48 - a lot of Australians don't live in Victoria and have no wish to either. Silent Billy (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Talk about Déjà vu. I'm sure we've been over this whole soccer thing before.

"the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" - Don't you think you're being overly dramatic here? How is using the common name for the game hirtful. Perhaps you should read the association football article which states in its opening sentence, "Association football, commonly known as football or soccer".

"the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football." - I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter bullshit. I turned 50 in December and, as far back as I can remember, it has always been called soccer in Australia, even by the fans, hence the "Soccerroos" and not the "Association footballoos". It's only been in recent years, when the sport has apparently started to become more popular here that the term "association football" has come into any use outside of the most rabid fans. Soccer clubs have always been called "football" or "soccer" clubs, never "association football" clubs.

The arguments you're using here really don't help give your arguments credibility. Getting so upset over the fact that soccer is the common name would be like me (an IT consultant) getting upset over many people calling the system unit of their PC a "hard drive". Just accept the truth and move on. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

sorry mate, you made your point very well without knowing it by saying "its football everywhere else". you are exactly right, its football everywhere else (except the usa) AND AUSTRALIA. its not the australian term, as used in the maquarie dictionary or by the vast majority of australians, you dug your own grave on this one mate, sorry. soccer it stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 00:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The argument about soccer v football from a linguistic perspective is of course easy. Yes in some countries, we need addendums to distinguish between different types of football. But this isn't the heart of the matter. The question is one of dominance.

The eggball aficionados are suggesting 'soccer' is fine as a differentiator on the assumption that something else in its vicinity, will be called "football". They perpetuates the key semantic property of 'soccer' - it unalterable sense of "otherness". If he makes the argument that NOTHING should be called football and every code should have its own handle, then so be it, but as it stands, this isn't the case.

I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion, or vice as many saw it. It contained none of the Edwardian values of Rugby Football, and therefore didn't deserve the word football. So much of the meaning behind "soccer" when South African's use it, is about otherness, of minority, of difference, of inferiority. Likewise, if an Irishman likes "Association football", he'll call it "football". If he hates it, or if he equates football with British imperialism and an affront to his sense of independence, he'll call it "soccer".

In the six letters of "soccer" is imbued a put down that can only be explained through an understanding of semantics, and putting it into historical context. When "soccer" is used by football supporters, it rolls unceremoniously off the tongue. But when used by its many detractors, it is punctuated and bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."

"Soccer" is a dirty word. It is used to symbolise the past problems of the sport in Australia. When "soccer" was the word commonly used in Australia by the code itself it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters", today that has changed - "football" is the right term to use.

The fallaciousness of the argument put by the Victorians above that their usage should be adopted by the whole of Australia is laughably self evident.

I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here. That must be because it does not actually support his argument (you're not the only one with a sub maaaaaaaaaate) Silent Billy (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

An example of how the word "soccer" has evolved and is is used as vindictive insult in Victoria appears on the Melbourne tabloid website: ... most Aussies still see Soccer as the backward foreign ehtnicgame. Silent Billy (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." A rather lame personal attack but no I'm not weak since adding copyrighted content will get myself blocked, I suggest you get the MD or get an account online. Bidgee (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Billy - I find it hurtful when paranoid bullies completely ignore my seriously thought out contributions. So I will post again, hoping you will pay some attention this time.

How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it." - have you got a verifiable source for that? It's a ridiculous thing to claim. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course I don't have a verifiable source for what I said Billy, apart from living here for 60+ years. I don't need a source. I spoke common sense. I spoke from experience. If you still want to fight over this, I think YOU need a verifiable source that tells us some Victorians ARE hurt by the name soccer. Maybe you could start by checking with all the clubs called soccer clubs. Stop making such a big issue over this. I like soccer. I played it as a kid. The town I lived in had the state league champions one year. The local soccer club. We were all very proud. It just makes no sense to call it football here. So let's go with Association football when discussing Australia. (I'm quite happy with the name Australian football for the local code too. It would be dumb to call it simply football.) We have four professional sports called football here, and at least two others played at amateur level. No-one owns the name football in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"The eggball aficionados" - I'm afraid your non-NPOV slip is showing. Have you already forgotten "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" and "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football"? "Eggball" isn't a recognised nickname for any sport that I'm aware. Why should you expect others to use official names when you clearly can't do the same?

"I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion" - I'm not sure what South Africa has to do with anything. According to both Association football and Names for association football, the term soccer originated in England, first appearing in the 1880s as an Oxford "-er" abbreviation of the word "association".

"bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."" - "Our" vernacular? I assume you must be American.

""Soccer" is a dirty word." - In your opinion. Soccer is widely used throughout the world. From Association football: "Today the sport is known as football in English-speaking countries in which it is the most popular football code; where other codes are more popular, the sport is more commonly referred to as soccer." From Names for association football: "The term association football has never been widely used, although in England some clubs in rugby league strongholds adopted the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) to avoid confusion with the dominant sport in their area."

"it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters"," - When would that have been? Soccer has been popular in Australia for Australia as long as I can remember, although it has always been overshadowed by league. I've never heard it referred to in the derogatory manner that you've used, although I have occasionally heard it to as "wogball", mainly because it was primarily popular with immigrants from Europe.

"I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." - Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. That sort of tone is uncivil. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to have used the term "eggball" but my intention was to point out that one could use a pejorative term for the rugby and Australian rules codes. Silent Billy (talk) 03:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Back on to topic, I think it should be called soccer in articles about australia, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the Australian team is called Socceroos, which says alot. I myself have no problem with calling it football, and I do sometimes, depending on the context (such as when watching the world cup). It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. So in the article we should leave it as such. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. - do you have a verifiable source for this? Silent Billy (talk) 11:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Rowe, David (2003) "Sport and the Repudiation of the Global" International Review for the Sociology of Sport 38:3.4 "In countries where it is known as ‘soccer’, like Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US, the linguistic marker signifies that it is not the dominant code of football." - Bilby (talk) 12:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Google hits don't mean much. Many of those hits refer specifically to the book, Put it in inverted commas and there are 8,350 hits. A search on my first attempt to be elected to parliament got 100,000 hits, without specifying the electorate got 157,000. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That supporters of one code use disparaging terms to describe another, or its supporters, is hardly news. Our Billy did it himself with eggball up above. Australians have been very creative over the years with terms to insult other forms of football. HiLo48 (talk) 04:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow - what a waste of valuable collective editing time. And a generally uncivil one at that too. There must be at least 30 posts in this section. Would it not be better for editors to spend their (presumably limited) editing time doing something more constructive? --Merbabu (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Just had a look at Silent Billy's Talk page. He has already been repeatedly warned for disruptive editing around the word soccer. While he clearly generally makes a valuable contribution to Wikipedia, his unrealistic obsession with eliminating that word from Australian usage is clearly on display. I don't think we have a tool in Wikipedia to ban people from using a particular word in their edits. It would avoid these troll discussions if we could. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

SilentBilly says it was all a misunderstanding, and it was sorted out later. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you thought this argument was over but I'm starting it again. Association football should be used not "soccer". "Soccer" is a colloquial term that has only become the proper term in America. No official bodies in Australia use the term "soccer". Just football is the official name in Australia but to disambiguate it from other forms of football, association football can be used. "Soccer" was the official name in Australia until the last 10 or so years when it was changed. That's the reason so many (especially older) people still call it "soccer". It's those people who prevent Australia from moving into the present. In an encyclopaedia, the sports correct name should be used. "Soccer" is offensive to those who love the sport and "football" is confusing to those who like one of football's derivatives. Association football should be used as a neutral term. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Australian team's official nickname is the Socceroos. The sport of Association football is known as soccer in Australia. Colloquialism's fulfill WP:COMMONNAME anyway. This talk about moving Australia into the present is quite POV. Saying soccer is offensive to those who love the sport is just plain wrong. I know plenty of Australians who enjoy the game, and call it Soccer. Soccer is the term used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, the attempt to rebrand the sport as Association Football, which mostly seems to be a marketing move to take the ethnic overtones from the sport, only stems from the 2003 Crawford Report. While the national body accepted the recommendation, the rebranding process has only been going for a few years. It would appear that the rebranding is having an impact, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that soccer has been replaced in common usage, and quite a bit to suggest that it hasn't been. I guess there's still an argument that we should go with what the offcial bodies now use, but I'm more inclined to go with common parlance, myself. - Bilby (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I would regard the clubs that call themselves soccer clubs as official bodies. Many towns and suburbs in Victoria, Tasmania, SA, WA and NT have soccer and football clubs, the latter playing Australian football. The soccer clubs are unlikely to rename themselves to be football clubs in those situations. HiLo48 (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

What I find offensive is somebody having the audacity to claim that the older people are preventing Australia from moving into the present simply because they use a term that has been in wide use for over a hundred years. It reminds me of the new neighbour who moves in next door, turns his rap music up at 2am and parks across your driveway and then tells you that you need to change. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but there would be remedies for the incumbent neighbour. But what if the incumbent had a dog that was in the habit of leaving a daily deposit on the new neighbour's doorstep and had been doing so for years. Would the new neighbour just have to grin and clean it up each day or would he be justified in asking the incumbent to control his dog? Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've missed the point entirely. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

You were the one who started with the neighbour analogy. I just wanted to point out that one could take it to its absurd limit. I had hped that gentle irony might be the way to do that. Silent Billy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to blame the older generation for not allowing Australia to move on, then you have to blame the younger generation (of which I'm a part of) as well, because I have never heard anyone refer to Soccer as Association football. I've even heard many people argue that it is only and should only be known as Soccer. Of course, that is based on my personal experience only, but that's why I find it hard to believe your claim that the younger generation accepts Association football as the name and the older generation is holding us back. Anoldtreeok (talk) 00:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not having a go at any generation but it has to be said that if you have not heard of "Association football" that really is your problem. I am sure that you could find people who would insist that gays should be described as "p-------" but that wouldn't mean that we should change Wp to suit them would it? Silent Billy (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

uninvolved editors views

After reading this long and arduous discussion..i see valid points on both sides...That being said i have never heard anyone anywhere refer to the sport as "Association football". What i see is an attempt to change socially view on the subject by rewording the term. From what i have seem here on wiki about the history it is clearly called soccer for many generations and only recently has the term "Association football" been implemented by the new governing body. So here at wikipidia we should use the term that has meaning to the majority of people. It is nice to see the governing body trying to change this but its clealy not a wide view yet despite the attempts to push this view threw. I have also never heard anyone refer to "Soccer" as an offensive term. Would it be possible to see a reference to this fact, because i have not seen one reference to indicate that any of this view are noting but personal feelings. In fact i see no references for anything. As for linking Association football don't you guys think its best to link to your countries governing body and not the general term...As an over view article you should try to link to just your counties sub-subject and not the main article. Moxy (talk) 15:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

This article in the Sydney Morning Herald suggests that there may be flaws in your analysis. Silent Billy (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, Craig Foster, ex-SOCCERoo, writing for the SMH says so. Let's be realistic about the football and linguistic divide in Australia. All need to look at the Barassi Line. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed Craig Foster is a former Socceroo. However the term "socceroo" is applied to the senior mens' national football team and has a history of around 43 years attached to it. But just because that is the team name does not mean that the game's proper name is "soccer" which as you well know is a colloquialism. Like wise you may or may not be aware that the senior mens' international rubgy league team are called the "Kangaroos" but that doesn;t mean we should call that football code "kanga" does it? Silent Billy (talk) 02:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on ignoring most of my post, particularly the bit that pointed out that in more than half the country soccer is NOT a colloquialism. That you cannot recognise that is very sad. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Google search term	Google hits
soccer site:au	2,240,000 (99.57%)
"association football" site:au	9780 (0.43%)

Enough said, I think. Hesperian 04:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I know that Football Federation Australia are trying to promote the term 'football' over 'soccer', but that has failed to really penetrate as yet. Realistically, the primary code is the one known as "football" - hence rugby league in NSW and Queensland, and AFL elsewhere. I do detect the beginnings of change but it will be a long way before the default reaction to calling soccer football is a perplexed look requiring the talker to explain...Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that even the Football Federation of Victoria are happy to use the term "soccer" as in It has had several name changes over the years, but has survived as the governing body of soccer in Victoria since this time. and In order to provide for the future development of women's soccer...FFV So it can't be as offensive as some claim. Soccer is clearly the term most Aussies use, just look at the media. --Michael Johnson (talk) 06:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that you can use what passes for the "media" in Melbourne as your sample. You do appreciate that the self-absorbed provincialism of both the rags and the television stations is pretty much a laughing stock in the rest of Australia. There was a reason that they had to put the ABC's HQ in Sydney... there would have never been anything but coverage of Vic otherwise. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Straw poll

So after a long debate lets look at what the consensus is here...although is seems pretty clear its soccer... For the record lets do this properly. I see 3 possibilities all that could link to Association football until you have an article called Australian soccer or Australian Association football. Ps I do think expanding articles related to this debate that clearly is real world should be updated or improved Football (word) and Names for association football.

1. Call it Association football
2. Call it Football
3. Call it Soccer

Soccer as it seems to be more prevalent (that is club names usage etc..)Moxy (talk) 06:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is the obvious, simple, unambiguous name for the game in Australia.(See below. Begoon convinced me.) My only qualification would be that some here (mostly one) have claimed that it is offensive and hurtful. It's certainly not where I come from, but if a reliable source saying that can be referenced from here, I would be happy to go with Association football. Just Football would be just silly, due to its ambiguity. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football - Explanation: I'm English, moved to Australia 15 years ago. I have no issue with the AFL or NRL guys appropriating "football" and "footy" - those are the local sports, and that's only natural. However, for an international encyclopedia, I think the international term should be used - regardless of the page being written in "Australian English" (I'm unclear how anyone could decide what is or isn't officially in the Australian English dialect.) As a round ball fan, I confess I cringe every time I hear the term soccer, and I think the wishes of the people who follow the sport, and those involved in the sport, which, from the linked article and other stuff I've seen, are clearly to move away from the name, should be given some weight, particularly since all they want is for the worldwide consensus to prevail. There you go - that's a "semi insider, semi outsider" view. I'm only voting because you placed a poll - I certainly shan't be joining in all the madcap fun you've had in the rest of this discussion - it's not that important to me, and I certainly don't expect this view to prevail :-)  Begoon^talk 07:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Begoon - Exactly why do you cringe? Genuine question. As I said, it's not cringeworthy where I come from (Victoria), but I'm open to a good explanation. I'm looking for a rational answer. Previous anti-soccer campaigners in this discussion weren't great for the cause. HiLo48 (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok - I'll try to explain - but that's all - I'm not letting you loons drag me into this :-) The problem is that it just seems to me that, given "soccer" is only originally an abbreviation of "Association", it can feel derogatory to those involved. The proper, internationally accepted name is Association Football, hell, Soccer even redirects there... It feels somehow dismissive, or second class to have one of the world's most popular sports referred to this way. But then I grew up in England, and the cringing probably comes from hearing Americans use the term, and feeling a little hurt that they couldn't even use the proper name for my favourite sport. It's not anything concrete that I can directly explain, but I can guarantee you there are a lot of people who would understand. Anyway - that wasn't the real reason for my vote - using the proper name was - I'd rather see a direct link than a disambig or redirect, or soccer piped. As I say, I know the Aussies frequenting this page won't largely agree - I live here (lol)  Begoon^talk 07:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football - Amended vote. I can rise above the loon insult and accept Begoon's explanation! (It helps that it's the American usage that annoys him. It would annoy me too.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone - I don't think there's much doubt which way the vote will go. However, just to demonstrate that statistics can show all sorts of things, I found it fascinating that, after looking at Hesperian's numbers above, I did a Google for just the term football, using the Google "Pages from Australia" link. When you actually look what sport the top 10 results were about (ignoring the "businesses bit" that comes up, though they did split about the same...):

No.1 AFL

No. 2,3,4,5,6 - Round ball

No. 7,8,9,10 - AFL

The next 10 were split 5/5 too.

Not saying it means anything at all, but surprised me nevertheless.  Begoon^talk 09:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow that's really interesting. Now I really wish I knew googles search algorithm. I would hazard a guess to say that those are probably mostly official/club/team websites? Do rugby league/union groups call their game football? I've actually never heard it called that, and I've lived in Brisbane. Actually, never really heard AFL being called football without the Australian in front of it, usually the highly colloquial footy ;) Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No, not really club sites - of the first 5 - Football Australia's site, Fox Sports results, Craig Foster's article, Football NSW, and SBS World Cup 2010 website - so actually, not a club site in there. AFL had Carlton/Richmond for 2/5 club sites - one to the AFL, one to AFL Victoria and one to an AFL chat site.  Begoon^talk 10:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Calling Australian football "AFL" is what makes me cringe. And it's worse than calling association football "soccer", because in the history of Australia football, it has never been called AFL until recently, when the Sydney media — which is dominant in this country — needed to call the sport something other than football, because up there rugby league and soccer are both called "football" — particularly by fans of those respective sports. So, as the AFL dominates Australian football, they call the sport by that dominant organisation, but by going along with this logic rugby league and soccer should be called "NRL" and "A-league or FFA" respectively. My point is, though, that you have to accept that some people are going to call the sport something other than what you would prefer, however incorrect that it might be in your mind, you have to accept that it's used and move on. BTW I'd rather use "association football" for soccer and "Australian football" for Australian rules football, but according to the manual of style for names the preference is for common names and whether you like it or not soccer is the most common name for the sport in this country, and probably in the English speaking world. --124.180.40.91 (talk) 14:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely, I agree that we need to accept the consensus, I think if you look at my posts you'll see I've been very clear on that. I'm also sorry if my using AFL was "cringeworthy" to you. I'm English, and have lived in NSW for 15 years, so have had very limited exposure to that form of the game. I merely used the term because I was describing the Google Search results, and that's what they used. I am 100% in favour of consensus being followed - all I've done is share my personal opinion, knowing it would be bound to be minority here, as my contribution to the forming of that consensus. I've not, I hope, implied at all that I won't "accept that some people are going to call the sport something other than what (I) would prefer". If I gave that impression, I'm truly sorry - it certainly was not my intention.  Begoon^talk 14:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

What do you call "recently"? When I lived in Melbourne in the late 70s it was called "VFL". The change to AFL started in the '80s, when other states started competing more against Victorian clubs. It certainly wasn't driven by the Sydney media; at that time VFL was treated as a virus in NSW, with supporters being shunned, and coverage being almost nil. --AussieLegend (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - It's the common name. Calling it association football makes me cringe. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - I definitely do appreciate the counter arguments offered, and know quite well the cringing at perceived 'american words' ;) (note on that: soccer was actually a term invented in England, to distinguish the two types of 'Football', Association Football [soccer] and Rugby [Ruggers]!) However, I don't think Association Football, is the common name worldwide or in Australia. It is usually either Football or Soccer. The Association football page was named that way to prevent either side erupting in a huge war over the name, and it quite a good compromise there. However, I do think that this article should reflect the main usage of the country in question, which although officially changed by some of the clubs, is still soccer. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer Pretty much per the statistics posted by Hesperian. It's clearly the common name for the sport in Australia. Nick-D (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer Given that we've resorted to polling, I guess I don't need to give a reason - except to say, that it is by far the most common name. --Merbabu (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer From the information presented, it seems to be more common. SCΛRECROW 09:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer. The most commonly used name.--Dmol (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football – obviously no one calls it "association football" because it's long and doesn't sound good. People either call it football or soccer. Football would be confusing for Australians so association football seems a good compromise and no one can argue it is not called association football. In fact, official bodies only call it football, but the first word is for the sake of disambiguating it. As for the point about football clubs calling themselves "soccer clubs", that's because they named themselves before the official change. My two local football clubs merged together several years ago and when they named the new club, they had to end the name with "Football Club". "Soccer" is a nickname and not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. I am also English living in Australia and "soccer" makes me cringe for the same reason as Begoon. "Soccer" is an American word and the sport is called football in Australia so "soccer" is not Australian English. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 10:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is what people call the sport. Soccer is not an american word! They're just the common example of the users of that name. Besides, soccer was an official word of the Australian clubs until very recently, so it's not exactly a nickname. It hasn't moved into common usage yet.Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Likewise. I can't help myself. Soccer is NOT a nickname!!!!!!!!! It's NOT just an American name!!!!!! Where I live it's the proper, common and only name used for the game since it began in Australia over 100 years ago. Australian football started before soccer was codified in the UK. So, if a town around here has a football club, it will almost always be Australian football. The round ball club has to call itself the soccer club for uniqueness. No-one here is offended. No-one here cringes. I acknowledge that things are different elsewhere. I just wish the round ball bigots would appreciate and understand what the truth and reality is here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, they're both right, you know, soccer was an English abbreviation from Association, to disambiguate rugby. It just never caught on in England because the round ball game was so much more popular. It's perceived as American now because they picked it up to use as their own disambiguation from Gridiron. I still dislike it, though - for the personal prejudices I explained above, and if I had the choice I wouldn't use it in the article. I don't have the choice, though - and as I have to tolerate it on a regular basis in RL anyway, having it used here, whilst not being my preference, certainly won't make me lose any sleep  Begoon^talk 10:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Apologies about your personal preferences Begoon :) Believe me, I know how you feel. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised that "Soccer is American" is still being bandied about. Association football and Names for association football have been mentioned and linked to a number of times now. Maybe the association football fans should actually read the articles about the sport. --10:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It's still American, even if the word wasn't invented in America. "Honor" is the American spelling of "honour" but they didn't invent the spelling. McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Honor is considered 'american' spelling, but that is because that is where it is most used. If you say something is 'american', it is implied that it is exclusively used there, or its current usage spread from there, like websters dropping of u's. Soccer came to Australia I think from Ireland, where people sometimes call it soccer due to Gaelic football. It is as 'australian' a word as it is 'american'. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - Calling it anything but what it is most commonly called in Australia makes little sense. Anoldtreeok (talk) 10:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment - Just a thought, though chaps - since the problem seems to be that the world mostly calls it one thing, but we want to preserve the local name - have we considered something for the first mention like:

• Association Football, historically referred to in Australia as Soccer to distinguish it from the two traditionally more popular local forms, AFL and Rugby League...

or

• Soccer, the historically used name in Australia for Association Football, used to distinguish it from the two traditionally more popular local forms, AFL and Rugby League...

and then referring to it as soccer on subsequent mentions? I know it seems like an awful mouthful, but if it were reworded a bit, maybe, it would serve to give a bit of history and information along with its verbosity, and, after all, as an encyclopedia, I guess that's the sort of historical and contextual information we might even be supposed to be giving here?  Begoon^talk 10:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It makes more sense to call it soccer, since everyone knows what that is and it's not a mouthful. --AussieLegend (talk) 10:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, ok, I edit conflicted with you adding the second line, but if you think the context and explanation for people who could be unaware of the reasons behind it is unencyclopedic, fair enough - that's why I was reluctant to join an argument between 2 names.  Begoon^talk 11:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the current debate is just about one tiny mention where soccer is just part of a list of sports played in Australia. There's no space for any contextual information. As an aside, I don't think the world mostly calls it anything. Within the english-speaking world, the majority probably call is Soccer (country and population wise). Within other areas, native names sometimes correspond with a literal translation of "Football", such as the tagalog "putbol", sometimes the correlation is less clear. In no way as simple as local vs international name! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No, that's fair enough - I was pretty much done here anyway. Just thought it worth mentioning that if it can provoke this much discussion on the talk page, maybe it was worth some context in the article. As I said, no doubt about which view will prevail - but it would have been nice if the article could benefit from these thousands of words here by more than just getting the "winning" name enshrined.  Begoon^talk 11:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer, per the Macquarie Dictionary. Soccer should remain until association football is used widely in Australia, which is not the case yet. Bidgee (talk) 11:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Bidgee the MD does not say that at all. Football is defined as ...any game in which the kicking of a ball has a large part... It then goes on the suggest that "soccer" is "preferred" in "general use" to describe Association football, but I am not sure what "preferred" means etymologically speaking as it were. Mind you this is after mentioning that the use of "football" for Association football is likely to cause a "shift in usage". It is hard to tell how old this entry is and if it is not recent then it is likely to be less authoritative. Silent Billy (talk) 11:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what you think, soccer is more widely used then "football" and "Association football". Even the Collins Dictionary uses "Soccer". Bidgee (talk) 11:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer. I don't care about what Australians use; I care about the reader's experience in reading the article. If we use soccer, everyone will know what it means, and some readers will cringe. If we use Association football, a substantial proportion of our readership will have no idea what we are talking about, and some of those who do will cringe. Soccer wins. Hesperian 11:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Who do you think the readership of the article is? I would suggest that is mainly non-Australians who in the mainly use "football" to describe the game, Has anyone got any reliable stats on this? By the way I would remind everyone that my point is that the game should be described as "association football (soccer)" and not just "soccer". Silent Billy (talk) 11:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. There's a famous journalism quote, the details of which escape me at the moment, but the gist is that people want to read what they already know. And it's true: we'd rather read page and pages of analysis of a football game we've already seen, than read about a match we didn't get to see. I would say that the readership of this article is overwhelmingly Australian. Hesperian 12:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Just say if 5000 people from the US read the article and only 2000 people from Australia doesn't mean we should use US English, fact is we use Australian English (spelling, terms, ect). Bidgee (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Association football is it's correct name. Changing it to an Americanised nick name is simply ridiculous Cbowden9000 (talk) 12:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not an 'american' name. See Names for association football Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Déjà vu again.[4] --AussieLegend (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer, as per the Macquarie, it's obviously the Australian English term, the FFA's push of "Football" is simply a re-branding attempt, which of itself should not be viewed as overriding accepted usage by the bulk of the population. --Barkly St End (talk) 13:56, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The definition of "football" in the MD is full described elsewhere here. Its usage is not limited to Australian Rules or any other code for that matter. I am just arguing that we should use the term "Association football (soccer)" here rather than just "soccer". 01:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Billy (talk • contribs)

Association football, as it's already in use throughout multiple articles related to Football in Australia, including the title of the article regarding the national team, the article regarding the sport as a whole in Australia, articles regarding under-age national teams also use Association Football. It's also written as Association Football (soccer) on the "Sport in Australia" template . If people here wanted it to remain soccer, they should've participated in the debates that took place when these articles were being created. I should also point out that 'soccer' is currently a redirect to Association football, and wiki policy as it stands is to use Association Football.Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're suggesting that it is 'wiki policy' to refer to things only by their article name, then you are mistaken. Hesperian 01:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Good example of other stuff exists, just because those articles use doesn't mean the consensus is Association football. Also what policy states we have to use Association football even though the common name is Soccer? Bidgee (talk) 01:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer because of context. Most readers would know exactly what it means, even if they don't like it. Plus it is the most common Australian term for the sport. "Football" is clearly not available, and "Association football" is not a common name for the game, just reading the article without following the link will leave many people confused (altho I argued for it as title for the main article of the sport - but there the context is different). --Michael Johnson (talk) 02:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• Soccer because of its prevalent use in Australia, and to varying extents in other English language countries (this being the English language wikipedia). Notwithstanding what the associations themselves now call themselves, "soccer" is the commonly understood and used name for the game in (I believe) Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States. If anyone in, say, the UK doesn't know what soccer is, surely the simple piped link will set them straight in a second. It is also the case that an Australian lay reader who does not follow sport (a category into which I generally fall) would probably not know what "association football" actually was - whereas the reverse situation is unlikely to obtain (I doubt a British lay reader would suffer the same problem with "soccer"). hamiltonstone (talk) 04:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment But that is why I suggested the use of "Association football (soccer)". I notice that option has been, conveniently, left off this "straw poll" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silent Billy (talk • contribs) 22:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

So in conclusion it is clear that Soccer has the majority view....that being said I welcome further discussion on the matter if and when a WIDE variety of credible sources are available to change peoples minds. Moxy (talk) 15:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

• Soccer for the time being as that is what it is most widely called. Many words have their origins as colloquialisms. Football Federation Australia are trying their hardest to convert everyone to the term 'Football' for Soccer and the use is starting to creep in, but is a long way from general acceptance. We can easily revisit this in two years' time. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:10, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's hope it never becomes popular. Imagine the confusion when trying to explain that the three most common types of football in Australia are Aussie Rules, rugby league and football. Can't they use a non-generic term like, oh, I don't know, soccer? Or something trendy like iGame 2.0 --AussieLegend (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

"Association football (soccer)" please, it covers the reality perfectly. 'Football' is the official, formal name for the sport (Football Federation Australia etc...), though 'Association Football' can be used when needed to differentiate from another particular 'football code' in this country. It's the reality of our 'football' landscape these days, which ofcourse involves many 'codes of football.' But we also have the historic, colloquial use of Soccer I guess, which even reflects in the names of a number of clubs around the country. The reality is both co-exist and reflects the complex make up of our complex footballing landscape. It's not an either or - it can be both. "Association football (soccer)" covers the context of this well enough for the time being and most people can understand, follow, what that means, even if they aren't an 'Association Football/Soccer' fan. Xfiles82 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is NOT colloquial! It was the ONLY name ever used for the game in more than half of Australia up until the past ten years. It was part of the name of EVERY club that played it. Officially registered club names! A word used that way is NOT a colloquialism, no matter what a group of Sydney based businessmen try to impose on the rest of the country. HiLo48 (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment HilO48 you are not being entirely accurate. In Witionary the definition is Colloquial abbreviation for Association football, via abbreviation Assoc. +‎ -er (“(slang suffix)”); earlier socca (1889), then socker (1891), with soccer attested 1895. The Online Etymology Dictionary states that is was originally university slang (with jocular formation -er (3)), from a shortened form of Assoc. Your actual OED states Introduced from Rugby School into Oxford University slang, orig. at University College, in Michaelmas Term, 1875. The ten or so printed dictionaries eg Chambers 20th Century all give it as a "colloquial". Can you cite any dictionary where this not stated explicitly or implicitly. Amateur etymology, rewriting of history and exclamation marks do not an argument make. Silent Billy (talk) 07:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes Billy. The Macquarie Dictionary, being exclusively Australian, is the ideal source for this purpose. No need to give the whole definition. It's the obvious one about 11 players, spherical ball, no hands, etc. The important part is that it simply describes soccer as a noun. Not colloquial. Not slang. So, an Australian dictionary agrees with what I say the usage is in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and just to highlight that Macquarie is happy to call a word colloquial when it is, it says exactly that about footy, footie, wogball, and several other less "correct" words. But not soccer. HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

According to the Shorter Oxford, soccer is "[ORIGIN Aphet. from Assoc. (abbreviation of Association) + -er⁶.] Football as played under Association rules; Association football." No mention of slang. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

(Similarly to HiLo48's comment above re Macquarie and colloquial) The SOED does not describe soccer as colloquial, but it does (for example) describe footy (Football. Chiefly Austral. & NZ.) as colloquial. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer - it's what the sport is known as by the vast majority of Australians and the name clearly distinguishes itself from the other codes. The word Soccer is the abbreviation of Association Football anyhow so having both names together is stupidly repeating the same thing twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.56.91.171 (talk) 17:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

So "European Union (EU)" and "United Nations (UN)" are stupid as well? McLerristarr (Mclay1) (talk) 14:41, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Poor example. You're comparing initials to words. Instead try "Automobile (car)". --AussieLegend (talk) 14:53, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• Call it soccer. Soccer, the beautiful game, is the only thing the people call it. Football is rugby (with arguments over league and union), the game they play in heaven. "Association football" only comes up in trivia competitions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

NSW foundation date

Formally, it happened on 7 February 1788, not on 26 January 1788. See Governor of New South Wales: "Captain Arthur Phillip assumed office as Governor of New South Wales on 7 February 1788, when the Colony of New South Wales, the first British settlement in Australia, was formally founded".

I guess we still have to mention 26 January 1788, being the significant date as far as the history of the (small c) colony is concerned, but we must not mislead readers about the true facts. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Independence section in table

The independence section has been changed to include dates such as the statute of westminster (1941) and the australia act (1986)

we became independent in 1901, and any of these other dates are confusing and misleading.

the statute of westminster just meant that all commonwealth countries were considered equals with the UK

the australia act meant that state privy councils (in law) couldnt appeal to a commonwealth court (which they hadnt done for many many many years)

these are really just pieces of random legislation that do not relate to the date we became a nation.

remove. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 22:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It hasn't been changed recently, it's been like that for a long time. A previous and extremely lengthy discussion confirmed that issues such as the Statute of Westminster are important. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

They may be important, but not enough to be included in that particular location. The version in the article text (history section) is accurate and helpful. In terms of headline summary data (without explanation), I would have said the table data is confusing. I agree with Saruman that the single independence date of 1901 would be a more accurate summary reflection of reality. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It's confusing because we didn't become independent in a single event. In a nutshell, the constitution created the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave us important powers that we didn't have before WWII and the Australia Act finally gave us full independence. The Statute of Westminster Adoption Act was forced into the article after the lengthy discussion of which I spoke. That can probably go but the other three are all extremely significant to when we gained our independence, which wasn't complete until the Australia Act. Claiming that we gained our independence on any single date is misleading. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

You are entirely correct, but it is a summary claim which is not misleading. As the article itself points out, for example, the privy council appeal powers were already largely present in name only by the time they were formally rescinded. The data as presented in the template table offers no explanation (and cannot, given the available space) as to why we are suggesting Australia has four independence dates. Australia became a sovereign country in 1901, and all explanations of the extent to which that should be qualified already accurately exist in the body text. The template table should be about providing meaningful information to a reader, not information that will confuse them. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

AussieLegend is correct. That powers were not used is not to say they could not have been, and the formal date of their repeal is really the only relevant date. To say that "Australia became a sovereign country in 1901" is also incorrect, at least in the way we understand it today. True Australia became a single nation in 1901, but legally the relationship with the UK was little different than that which had previously existed with the several self-governing colonies. Until the adoption of the Statute of Westminster, the UK could have repealed self-government at any time. Absurd? Not at all, look at the case of Newfoundland, for instance. When Menzies said in 1939 "Britain is at war, therefore Australia is at war", he was just stating what everybody took for granted, Australians, Britains, and if they thought about it, even the Germans. Australian independence was an evolutionary process, not a product of revolutionary change, and to pick a single date is just misleading. --Michael Johnson (talk) 04:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)