Talk:Sanhedrin trial of Jesus

Among the reasons that this topic may be considered controversial is that some of its factual basis comes from religious texts. Specific reasons for controversy have to do with the death of Jesus, and whether this institutional body was truly in a postion to stop it, or if it was directly responsible. The casual editor should be warned that posits made in this article, innocently stated, may fuel a sensitive debate.

Section 1

I have some doubts about the passage "For Jesus to permit anyone to worship him as God would itself be blasphemy both by Jesus and those he allowed to worship him". I insist that there should be some quotation here. As far as I know, from the point of view of most christian theologians, it is part of Jesus' message that those who acknowledge his divinity and that he and Father are one (John 10:30), fulfil God's will concerning Jesus. Would it be then a blasphemy to worship Jesus as God? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.115.179.44 (talk) 08:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the Sanhedrin Trial only in the Synoptics? In John, Jesus seems to be subjected to an informal interview by Annas, not a trial by the Sanhedrin. Also, the current version seems highly biased against John's account. Much of the scholarship I have read suggests that John's version of what happened makes more sense - an informal interview by the Jewish leadership, followed by him being turned over to the Roman authorities - than the Synoptic version. Also, all the Gospels, except maybe for Mark, try to downplay Pilate's role and put the blame on the Jewish authorities. It is, after all, Matthew which has Pilate's wife's dream and Pilate washing his hands and the Jews calling down their guilt onto their children and their children's children; and it is Luke who has Pilate try to evade responsibility by sending Jesus off to Herod, among other things. At the very least, all the stuff that suggests that it's generally agreed that the author of John wasn't a Jew should be seriously recast, I think. john k 15:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: JohnI agree with almost all you said. Oub 18:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC):

Most scholars are of the opinion that John is the least reliable even if it might on occasion have the most logical argument. See Authorship of John. E.g. you can logically argue that shopkeeper A must have been in bank B at time C, but that doesn't make you an eyewitness.

I agree that Pilate's role is downplayed by most of the Gospels, though I'm not that sure why it is significant to state that on the talk page of the Sanhedrin trial article?

It IS generally agreed that the author of John was probably not a Jew - see Authorship of John. Clinkophonist 17:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Many scholars, however, believe that John may, in some points, be more accurate than the Synoptics. The idea that only the Synoptics contain real historical details arose in the 19th century, and I think a lot of recent scholars have taken issue with the idea. And on what basis can we possibly say that John is less reliable than those parts of Matthew and Luke which do not follow Mark? And there's certainly no general sense that the author of John was not a Jew. Certainly many scholars think this, but I've never gotten any sense that this is a consensus - many scholars I've come across clearly think it's likely that John was a Jew - I've come across sources saying things like "I see no reason to doubt that the authors of the Gospels, other than Luke, are Jews." I'd say that scholars generally agree that the author of Matthew was a Jew, and that the author of Luke was a Gentile, but that there's no especial consensus about Mark or John, and various opinions exist. The Authorship of the Johannine Works article seems to me to suggest that the supposed non-Jewishness of John has, in fact, come into question based on the fact that various Johannine ideas show up in the Qumran material. As to Pilate's role, this article states

Both the Synoptics and the Gospel of John state that early in the morning the Sanhedrin reach their conclusion, and bind Jesus, taking him to Pontius Pilate. The Gospel of John downplays Pilate's responsibility and somewhat anti-semitically treats all the Jews as being responsible for Jesus' death, arguing that the Jews brought Jesus to Pilate, that Pilate initially wanted the Jews to judge Jesus by their own laws, but that the Jews object since they want to execute Jesus but don't have the legal authority.

This implies that John is unique both in blaming "the Jews" and in downplaying Pilate's responsibility. Which just isn't true. Matthew certainly does both, and Luke at least downplays Pilate's responsibility. john k 18:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. But blaming the Jews was natural for many of the gospel writers, due to a number of factors-- they'd turned Christ over to Rome, not to mention that they were also persecuting His followers, the effects of which Levi, John Mark, Luke, and John the Apostle all would have felt. Blaming them was not an act of anti-Semitism, especially when you take into consideration that many of them were Jews themselves.

The Pilate situation, I think, is complicated. I do not doubt the gospels' accounts, but I do recognize that in order for them to survive they had to be subtle about what was said of Rome. I think Pilate's hesitation was based on the fact that Jesus alarmed him in what He said, as well as the arrising controversy over this man. Though he was left baffled by the situation, even going so far as to turn Christ over to Herod to escape responsibility for judgement, Pilate, in the end, did what he had to in crucifying Jesus. It was his command that issued the death of the Messiah, but we must also keep in mind that if it were not for the Jews of the time, no such verdict would have been reached, as well as Pilate's reluctance as opposed to the willingness of the Jews to rid themselves of this Fellow, not knowing their actions were a part of a much larger scheme. Both Rome AND the Jews played a part in this deicide, but clearly the prime culprits are the Jewish people who rejected and killed Christ with their accusations.

As for John's gospel, what must be acknowledged here is that with the coming of Immanuel, if one believes such prophecies, the Law began to change, as did many sacred traditions (for example, the Passover became the Lord's Supper). John, the Beloved Disciple, as tradition would hold, a Jew, did not put particular emphasis on these customs, but instead focused on the divinity of Christ. The accounts of the gospels were not chronological, for those that do not know, with the exception of certain cases, and so 'discrepancies' are bound to occur. It's like asking four children to watch a movie and, in their own words, describe what happened in it. The answers will vary, but the synopsises will agree, if accurate. Such is the case of the gospels. (MrLigit)

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This article speaks of Jesus in awkwardly historical terms. It seems as though the article should specify that this is an article about a "Biblical story" and not a historical matter in a journalistic sense.

Article Title

Didn't this page used to be called just "Trial of Jesus?"

In of itself, the title seems to state a POV (that the Sanhedrin was fully capable of trying Jesus independently, etc). Wouldn't one say that the trial went before a court, in order to assume the court's impartiality (rightly so, or not)? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "Supreme Court Trial of Roe v. Wade," so much as "Roe v. Wade" or "The Trial of Roe v. Wade, that went before the Supreme Court." Calling it "their" trial of Jesus sounds accusatory. I submit that the name be changed.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>    

"Trial of Jesus" is ambiguous. It needs to differentiate between the trial involving the Jewish authorites, and the trial involving Pilate. Its more like "Supreme Court Trial of Roe v. Wade" vs. "Southern Baptist Convention Trial of Roe v. Wade". Basically its "Sanhedrin Trial of Jesus" as opposed to "Pontius Pilate Trial of Jesus". The other thing is that "Sanhedrin X" is somewhat shorter than "X before the Sanhedrin", and its important that the article title stays on one line and is easy to remember. I don't have a problem with the name being changed (I'm quite surprised that anyone would have thought it had a POV), but the new name, whatever it might be, must retain the ability to differentiate from the Pilate-related-trial. Clinkophonist 21:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The authority of the Jewish priesthood in 1st century CE Judaea is nothing like the authority of the Southern Baptist Convention. The temple officials were heavily involved in the temporal government of the province, and were closely associated with the Roman officials, who actually appointed them. I don't have a problem with this title, though. john k 00:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Now, I would have agreed with you until George W Bush got elected as president. I feel we are veering off-topic though. Clinkophonist 11:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

George W. Bush isn't a Southern Baptist. the Sanhedrin could have legally punish Jesus, the worst a Church can do in America, is kick you out. One article describing the trial of Jesus and how he is sent from the Sanhedrin to Pilate to Herod and back to Pilate, titled the "The Trial Of Jesus" would be fine, since what is there now is a stub. If you have info that is excluded, or different just edit it in. (unsigned)

That would be one option, it depends on whether there would be too much material for just one article. However, since most scholarly works (and artistic works) treat these as two separate events - the Sanhedrin vs Jesus being one and Pilate vs Jesus being the other - then the appropriate way is to follow the scholarly works in this manner. Clinkophonist 12:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Other violations of Jewish law not mentioned here

I realize that this is a sensitive topic, but I would like to mention that there are additional Jewish laws that are being violated, if this is true: The Torah forbids any court to convene or even sit at night. It is also forbidden to convene a court or arrest someone during a Sabbath or Festival. If this took place during the first night of Passover, then the Jews couldn't have convened 23 people (or any for that matter) to decide any case, let alone a capital one. They wouldn't have been able to arrest him until Sunday morning, as the first day of Passover and the Sabbath stretched from Thursday afternoon to Saturday night. Valley2city 02:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

God violated the authority/hypocrisy of all governance, redeemed the faithful with one mastereful stroke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.171.150 (talk) 10:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Scripture quotations are wrong

"The Sanhedrin, or any other Jewish court was forbidden to sit at night (Ex 18:24) nor could it meet during a festival, as it was the last night of the Passover Festival that had begun seven days earlier (Num 28:18). See "seder service is planned for the last night of Passover" [11] and "the last night of Passover... Observant Jews make a festive meal that night."[12]"

Neither Scripture reference in the preceding paragraph is correct. Neither one talks of the rules for court processes or trials. Exodus 18:24 actually reads, "Moses listened to his father-in-law and did everything he said." and Numbers 28:18 reads, "On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work."(New International Version). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.213.119.253 (talk) 19:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Preventing interpretations

This article has written "In the Synoptics, Jesus is taken to the Sanhedrin, with Matthew adding that the Sanhedrin had assembled where Caiaphas was located, possibly implying that the gathering occurred at the home of Caiaphas"

This breaks the rule of not interpreting the bible. Caiaphas could have been located anywhere at the time. Its an unnecessary interpretation and should be removed.86.4.59.203 00:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Pedanti

For the guy yelling at me about dates of the last supper...

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/po-eat.htm http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Yeshua/lastsupper.html http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/wheneat.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astral (talk • contribs) 20:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Section "Sanhedrin Trial as Motivating Anti-Semitism" is very well done

I know that this doesn't sound very academic, but I just wanted to put my two cents in here and say that this section in particular is well done. It has always surprised me that the notion of Jews as "Christ killers" could be drawn from the trial and crucifixion. After all, if it was the crucifixion / resurrection that formed the new covenant / permitted salvation / atoned for man's sins, then why is there ire directed at those who were instrumental in making this happen? I have heard -- don't ask me for a source -- that Judas was revered (perhaps revered is too strong a word) among some early Christians because he was seen as being critical to the crucifixion, that is, if he had not betrayed Jesus, the crucifixion might not have taken place.

This section may be a place for exploration of a similar idea. Were it not for the actions of the Sanhedrin (and Pilate), there would not have been a crucifixion, and thus no resurrection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.165.15.131 (talk) 19:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Conduct of the Sanhedrin Trial. The Greek "christos" means "anointed". Any other meaning has to be derived from this by way of interpretation. Pamour (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Problems with citations

This article comes across as an attempt of independent analysis (by that I mean compiling biblical or other evidence and then suggesting its own conclusions), where what it really should be is synthesising the analyisis provided by others, and comparing and contrasting that where necessary. It's not just a matter of providing cites to specific biblical passages, it's a matter of getting reputable commentary (ie. books) into the picture and presenting their views as a synthesis. Where there is scholarly agreement on what happened, that should be noted; where there is scholarly disagreement, that should be noted as well. Slac speak up! 00:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Large text deletion to be discussed here first

A large amount of text, references and some images were removed from this article on Wed Aug 26 2009. Based on Wikipedia protocols and policies these large scale changes need discussion first. I have reverted them once and have no choice but to revert them again now. Please discuss these changes, specially reference removals, before you perform any other edits in order to stay within Wikipedia guidelines and policies. Thanks you. History2007 (talk) 12:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindly offer to discuss. Please don't take any criticisms personally - we're all just trying to produce the best possible article - but I do feel there's room for improvement. For example:

• 1. Intro sentence (first of the lead) should be in the form "X is Y" - as perhaps, "The Sanhedrin trial of Jesus (repeating the title of the article, you see) was the trial of Jesus before the Jewish Council, or Sanhedrin, following his arrest and prior to his trial before Pilate." That gives the absolute minimum of information needed to define the subject. It's also more informative than "an event reported in the Canonical Gospels."
• 2. "These accounts report that after Jesus Christ and his followers celebrated Passover as their Last Supper..." Well, no, they don't. It was a Passover seder in the Synoptics, but in John it's celebrated on 14 Nisan, the day before the Passover. (It's also worth mentioning that the Passover seder is the last day of a 7-day festival - important for this article, as Jewish law forbids the Sanhedrin meeting during festivals).
• 3. "Jesus was then put on trial by Jewish authorities to determine whether his guilt, in their eyes, justified handing him over to the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate..." No they don't. They only decide later to hand him over to Pilate. Their original intention is to try him for blasphemy, an offense which they're empowered to try and punish themselves. (The trial before Pilate is for sedition, a different charge).
• 4. "with their request that the Roman Empire put Jesus to death". Yes, but ... the Sanhedrin had the right to put people to death themselves, for blasphemy - there was a notice in the Temple precincts warning gentiles not to encroach, on pain of death. The Sanhedrin didn't need Pilate to have Jesus put to death - a point worth mentioning.
• 5. "The Canonical Gospels report that after the arrest of Jesus, Jesus was taken to the Sanhedrin..." No they don't. Or rather, two do and two don't. Mark and Matthew have Jesus taken to the house of the High Priest (Caiaphas) on the night of his arrest, where the Sanhedrin is assembled and a trial takes place. Luke agrees that Jesus is taken to the house of the High Priest that night, but there's no Sanhedrin and no trial. Next morning, according to Mark and Matthew, the Sanhedrin meet again, this time to "consult" - no trial. They decide to send Jesus to Pontius Pilate. In Luke, the Sanhedrin meet now for the first and only time, and there's a trial. In John the Sanhedrin never meet and there's never any Jewish trial (Jesus is questioned, but not tried, by Annas, not by Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin aren't present, and there's no mention of any trial).

And there's more. But I think you owe it to your readers to get your facts straight. PiCo (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Great. This will be useful to discuss. The best way will be to correct the text, rather than execute it. I will read through this more carefully later today and discuss. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

(I apologise for the slightly smart-arse tone - part of my reason for editing Wikipedia is that I'm bored, and so I go around provoking fights). PiCo (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, no worries. If that leads to improvements in the article, so be it. Now regarding your comments, let us proceed one item at a time.

1. I modified the lead based on your suggestion. Admittedly, it reads better now as you suggested. But I think the 4 Bible refs are needed, just to have them available.

2. That is a valid point, and the festival fact is indeed relevant. But should it come into the lead upfront, or should it be worked elsewhere in the text. Please suggest a way of working it into the existing article more smoothly and we can modify it as such together.

After items 1 and 2, we can work on the rest gradually, making this a better article. The event happened 2,000 years ago, so 2 or 3 days to fix the description will be ok. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you like that new sentence. I agree that the bible-verses are needed - I never intended to imply that they be dropped.

About Mark: There's no trial before the Sanhedrin in this Gospel. Jesus is taken to Annas, Caiaphas' father-in-law and questioned by him (or maybe by Caiaphas - the sequence of events is confused and manuscripts differ). Then a rooster crows and "the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor." In other words there's no mention at any point of the Sanhedrin. The closest is when someone strikes Jesus for answering "the High Priest" without respect. Some translations give this as "an official", but others as a guard. Either way, the Sanhedrin isn't mentioned. There's also no trial - a trial needed a quorum of members from the Sanhedrin, follows certain procedures (notably the presence of witnesses - there are none), and resulted in a verdict (no verdict is mentioned). PiCo (talk) 06:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Fine. The question is whether this info should be included in the intro/lead or within the article itself. The intro needs to be roughly the length that it is. Hence it may make sense to add a section called something like "background to the trial" or something to that effect before the section on "composition of trial". This new section can then include the additional information that you sketched above in more detail and will certainly improve the article. Shall we do that? What would you suggest to add there?

In fact, stepping back now, let us talk about the section structure. If we do the above to add the info you suggested (which seems a good idea and the info is certainly relevant) we will get three key sections after the intro:

• Background
• Structure (now called Composition)
• Conduct

Then there are two other sections: Criticism and Anti-Semitism. The AntiSemitism section is mostly unreferenced and has had an unsourced flag since May. Much of it needs to be trimmed away or totally deleted, unless someone else objects "here and now" on this talk page. Some of the material that has a source may be combined with the other section. I am not even sure what "Criticism" means here in the other section. It starts by criticising the Jews for breaking their own laws and then it talks about that fact as partial proof that there was no trial. Seems out of place. A better way may be to rename it to something like: Commentary on the Trial, where it can bring in a few sentences from the last section.

Now, after reading this article more carefully, I agree with you that it really needs to be shorter (last section to mostly evaporate), but to have additional relevant facts and material. And more references are certainly needed. And this page gets about 4,000 hits a month [1], so it is well worth fixing. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 07:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree that the overall structure of the article is crucial. I'd suggest:

• The Sanhedrin trial in the Gospels - a section simply summarising the narrative of each Gospel. But it needs to be done for each separately, because they differ in some important points (and of course agree on others): Mark and Matthew are almost identical, with a Sanhedrin trial in the evening immediately after the arrest, followed by the Sanhedrin meeting again in the morning to consult (they decide to send Jesus to Pilate). They differ in their account of the actual content of the trial - the answers given by Jesus being the most important element. Luke has no night trial, but a morning trial instead (note that there's no morning trial in Mark and Matthew, rather a consultation). Luke also has yet another version of what Jesus was asked, and what he replied. John is the most different. The background section (if that's what it should be called) should set out these differences and points of agreement.
• Another section should set out the historical/legal background to the trial - such things as what the Sanhedrin was, the role of the High Priest (and some history of the occupants of the office during this period), and the rules relating to Sanhedrinal trials. The Sanhedrin had the power to execute persons found guilty of blasphemy, and they found Jesus guilty of this, yet they didn't execute him - this is a point worth making. Also the nature of blasphemy needs explanation: it meant strictly and only speaking the name of God, Yahweh, and nothing else; to proclaim oneself the Messiah, or even to allow others to call one the Messiah, was not blasphemy in Jewish law - this also needs mentioning).

I see no need here, in this article, for a section on the anti-Semitic implications of the trial narrative. It is anti-Semitic, but the anti-Jewish message overlaps several sections of the Passion narrative, of which this is only part. The anti-Semitic intention of the Passion story should be in that article, but not here. (By the way, it's only the Synoptics which are anti-Semitic at this point - John's portrayal is quite neutral).

There's a lot of useful material in the existing article that be quarried and re-used if we want to adopt this approach. (There's a lot of what looks very lijke personal interpretation, too).PiCo (talk) 11:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, you and I agree that the ant-semitic discussion is unreferenced and not to the point. But before we totally delete it, by Wiki-protocol we really need to wait a day or two for other comments. Now, the new section structure that I see emerging after the introduction is:

• Gospel accounts
• Background
• Structure
• Conduct

I agree on the need for separating the Gospel accounts, the key challenge will be to keep the info short enough not to lose readers. Some theology texts are so long that the average reader just gets scared away. The challenge now is to have things so they are informative, but structured so the average reader (4,000 readers per month means that they are not all seminarians) can get the ideas without getting tired. But once the last section goes away, things will get better. Would you just like to write the section on Background as a section anyway, then we will trim things in a day or two? Cheers History2007 (talk) 14:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)