Talk:Royal standards of England

Picture

Would someone be able to include a picture of the Royal standard of England. The standard is 3 gold lions Passant on a red feild.

Pictures

The pictures on this article (heraldic banners) are not what is mainly described in this article (the Tudor standard proper). AnonMoos (talk) 03:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Page merger

This page should be merged with Arms_of_England. The motto section is irrelevant to the banner and should be in the Arms of England page and too is the arms of the Commonwealth. Pmsmythe (talk) 21:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The page should stay separate but needs to be extended along the lines of the Royal Standard of Scotland page. Additionally the user Pmsmythe appears to have been unmasked as a Sock puppet of user Mr Taz consequently both accounts have been blocked. I have therefore removed the merger request. ThinkingTwice ^{contribs | talk} 15:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Image of English Royal Standard

Hi - I've just posted this on the England page discussion, and I guess it's particularly applicable to this page too:

Hi,

Could someone change the image for the English Royal Standard that's being used? The version that's currently on the page looks as though it's been taken from a shield and has something very strange going on with the angle of the bottom lion's leg!!! It looks a little bit amateur for the England page (no offense intended!). May I suggest this image as a replacement, which I thinks looks a lot better and indeed like that used by the government & royal family within the royal standard of the UK:

Otherwise liking all your work on this page btw! Brunanburh (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok so I've now altered the above image by trimming off the sides and adding to the top and bottom so that it is now a 3:5 ratio - a more standard flag dimension (and to match the dimensions of the St George's Cross image on the England page):

Hope this helps! Brunanburh (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok so I've changed it to this new high-quality image I've produced:

• 
  Royal Standard of England (2) at 3^5 ratio.svg

Brunanburh (talk) 01:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos and other examples?

I know that it is possible to buy modern, polyester reproductions of the English Royal Standard, but does anybody have a photograph of a historical example? Maybe something kept in a museum? What about medieval illustrations? --Jza84 |  Talk  16:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Cant even find any on google. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.6 (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I found a semi-decent reference, which may help. --Jza84 |  Talk  17:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

banner ≠ standard

It would probably be good if this article were to decide whether it's about banners or about standards. —Tamfang (talk) 07:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tamfang, (nice format of the section, & of the wording, BTY), as I told Jza84‎, I created this article in November '08, as heraldic references of known Banners + Badges + Mottoes, (inc: Earl of Mar (1875): Chiefs Standard: Arms: The Scottish Saltire of Scotland: Edited out! and the WP:Henry de Stafford image) if all such images had been uploaded, it would be a good enough article on its own. Personally, I think this specific section (+Scotland example) should be moved to the Heraldic flag article. As for banner ≠ standard, I think both (RSoE) & (RAoE), should be restructured. I think the principal of a well referenced, and imaged, collection of all known examples of 'Royal devices,' on royal banners & standards - of England, should be the overall intention of this (RSoE) article. I think the rest of (relevant RSoE) content should be edited into the Royal Arms of England, which itself, should be written from a more 'England/English history' perspective, with emphasis on the specific Royal Arms - of the houses and monarchs - of England. If anyone is serious about re-creating these Stubs, into encyclopedic Articles worthy - of England; Although I cannot upload anything from my computer, I can photocopy my images and (ISBN &c refs), and FAX them to anyone who will upload these, into WP:commons, for use in these &/or other Articles. I'm open to any suggestions &/or consensus on improving these articles. Ta Steve. (PS: IMO: a 'full stop' divides a sentence ok, but a 'colon' emphasises that specific sections' relevance, without having to Bold or Italic the text?? ;) Stephen2nd (talk) 11:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

A colon marks structure, not emphasis. A long string of phrases connected by colons is bewildering. —Tamfang (talk) 04:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

The term "royal standard" for what is technically a heraldic banner (rectangular flag) may be a misnomer, but it's a misnomer of very long standing, and it's not really the job of Wikipedia to invent new terminology which may be more correct than the terminology actually in use... AnonMoos (talk) 14:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but then what about standards? (Heh, a pun.) As the article stands now, the beginning and end are about rectangular banners of arms, and the middle is about livery standards, without little if any explanation of the transitions. Guess I'll think about a new structure. —Tamfang (talk) 05:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

This concerns me too. Whichever way we decide to go (which I'll come to in the next paragraph), I have uploaded File:Royal Standard of England.jpg to commons for use at Wikipedia if we so wish - it's not the best image in the world, but it is free to use.

Where is the reference material coming from for this article? There appears to be some confusion about whether this article is about one flag, a series of standards or a banner/banners, but it's hard to work out the merits of these two perspectives without submitting any evidence. Before we think about a retitling/restructing, the principal question for me is where are we getting our information from? Because the stuff I added tells me we're talking about the flag with three lions on it. --Jza84 |  Talk  15:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

When I created this page, I used the title "Royal Standard of England," due to the heraldic difference between a “Royal Banner” and “Royal Arms.” (Boutell; p251). Also due to the heraldic difference between “Banner of the Royal Arms” and “The Royal Standard.” REF: (A Complete Guide to Heraldry. A.C. Fox-Davies. (1909) (p474)): It is a misnomer to term the banner of the Royal Arms the Royal Standard. The term standard properly refers to the long tapering flag used in battle, by which an overlord mustered his retainers in battle. Next to the staff was the flag of St. George – the remainder of the standard was of the colours of the livery, devices, badges, with the motto transverse, dividing the standard into different compartments for the badges &c. This article was specifically written about the original (heraldically correct) version of the “Royal Standard.”

You edited all this out, and replaced it with your (stuff you added). I admit in 2008, I did not cite these sources. But also, I was not aware that you had changed the whole context of the Article, into your different version of a “Royal Standard,” which is about a flag with - the arms of three lions on it, (NB: Arms are displayed on banners: Boutell p251) - not about the WP:original (historically/heraldically correct), version of (RSoE). My "Standards" section is the correct content for the (RSoE) Article. Regards Steve Stephen2nd (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

the table of standards

I put the portraits in a separate column to prevent Oliver's title from wrapping around it.

It would be good if Henry's two standards could have labels saying when/where each was used, if that is known. —Tamfang (talk) 17:33, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the last stampede of Trojan horses trampled my system, which destroyed a lot of my files, and I cannot access CDs any more. However, this specific "standards texts" came from my CD: Heraldry Reference Library, which is available on Ebay now (+30% reduction! Aprox $8 inc P&P), [1], this is a very informative CD. Containing: ENGLISH HERALDRY. BOUTELL, (1904). / The heraldry of crests. JP Elven (1829) / A GUIDE TO THE STUDY OF HERALDRY. J.A. Montagu. / An Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of Arms Belonging to Families in Great Britain and Ireland By John Woody Papworth (1874) T. Richards Volume 1 (A-F) & 2 (G-F) / An introduction to heraldry. H.Clark (1829) / Flowers and heraldry; or, Floral emblems and heraldic figures. Robert Tyas. (1851) / Handbook of Heraldry: With Instructions for Tracing Pedigrees and Deciphering Ancient Mss. E. Cussans (1893) / Heraldry, Ancient and Modern: Including Boutell's Heraldry. ST Aveling. (1890) / Heraldry for Craftsmen & Designers. WH St . John Hope (1913) / Heraldry in history, poetry, and romance. Ellen J. Millington (1858) / Heraldry of Fish: Notices of the Principal Families Bearing Fish in Their Arms. Moule (1842) / Practical Heraldry: Or, an Epitome of English Armory, Showing how and by Whom Arms May be Borne. C Worthy (1889) / The Curiosities of Heraldry. MA Lower. (1845) / Decorative Heraldry: A Practical Handbook of Its Artistic Treatment. GW Eve. (1897) / Guide to Printed Books and Manuscripts Relating to English and Foreign Heraldry and Genealogy. Gatfield, (1892) / Heraldry as Art: An Account of Its Development and Practice, Chiefly in England. GW. Eve. (1907) / Bibliotheca heraldica Magnæ Britanniæ. T Moule. (1822) / A Treatise on Ecclesiastical Heraldry. J Woodward. (1894) / A Short and Easy Introduction to Heraldry, in Two Parts. H Clark. (1827) / Fictitious & Symbolic Creatures in Art: With Special Reference to Their Use in British Heraldry. J. Vinycomb. (1906) / Heraldry, Historical and Popular. Boutell. (1864) / Heraldry in England: The History & Science of Heraldry Concisely Explained By…. (Only $8 !!!!!) (Again, nice work on the format) Regards and thanks. Steve. Stephen2nd (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)