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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Irn (talk | contribs) at 16:31, 21 September 2010 (moved Talk:List of active separatist movements/Archive 4 to Talk:Lists of active separatist movements/Archive 4: migrating archives). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Merging Breakaway States

Merge breakaway states here: Yes. too hard to keep all these straight! Carol Moore 01:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

Redirected here. No reason to even suggest to merge an unreferenced list, but all of them are already here anyway. `'Míkka>t 07:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Mexico

Chiapas mustn't be listed since EZLN uses the Mexican flag, and don't actually want an independent Chiapas, but to establish a socialist government in Mexico; also their independent "municipios" (counties) are just semi-autonomous regions from that state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.194.77.57 (talk) 00:19, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have the source for this? Zazaban (talk) 04:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
It's true that the EZLN is not secessionist, but the Chiapas is a de facto autonomous region, so I think it should be included here nevertheless.--Jsorens (talk) 20:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have the references on hand but I have read about a secessionist movement in Oaxaca that was active within the last two years. I also have some notes about a secessionist movement in the northern Mexican states from 15+ years ago. If anyone, especially those close to those areas, has verifiable info it would prove worth an entry. LAWinans (talk) 00:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Mexico has 30 states, including Mexico City, Distrito Federal or "DF" and the surrounding Edomex formerly the "State of Mexico". About 10 or 15 states have secessionist movements to either gain a high degree of autonomy or to declare independence, the majority of them are backed by state political leaders. In the last decade, anti-government groups such as the EZLN of Chiapas and indigenous Mexican activists formed militancy groups for further autonomy and representation of their affairs are present in Campeche, Guerrero, Oaxaca, Quintana Roo, Tabasco and the Yucatan. Large numbers of "Nortenos" in the Mexican states of Baja California, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Durango, Nuevo Leon, Sinaloa, Sonora and Tamaulipas spoke of their state governors or legislatures were involved in conflict of interests with the Mexican government when the PRI was the majority party until the year 2000. The first non-PRI sponsored governors were elected in 1989 in the states of Baja California and Baja California Sur under the opposition party, the PAN in defiance of the PRI. + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 19:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Cascadia.PNG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herceg-Bosna

Does the Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina have an active autonomist and secessionist movement? Are there Croats in Bosnia (parties,organisations,intelectual circles) whos wish is to be a part of Croatia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanticm (talk • contribs) 11:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes,there are a lot of Croatian (Herzeg) parties especially in Mostar such as Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica for Bosnia and Herzegovina,and they are also as part of Croat Muslim federation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 09:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed edit on Les Nations du France

.

Some of the claimed nations - - 1. Brittagne (Breton/Brita), 2. Francia (excluding Flanders/ Nord-Pas de Calais) along with Nourmand (Normandie), 3. Occitania (also known as Ossitia or the Languedoc, but includes Arpitia, Savoie and Provencal), 4. Lorraine which is sometimes part of..., 5. Alsatche (Alsatie), 6. Euskala/Euskara (les Provinces du Basque), 7. Catalune (Catalunya or Catalonia) and 8. Corsica (Corse)

.

I don't think there's something wrong in contributing a fact on the differences in regionalism and provincialism as an element for secessionism in France. Here's the often removed map and directory of the nine "Nations of France" or historic provinces and regions that sought further autonomy from the government in Paris.

<<France was an united entity for over 1,500 years (the Frankish Kingdom, the Kingdom of France, French Empire and the Republic of France), but there are 8 or 9 historic regions/provinces known as Les Nations du France where some residents sought increased provincial or regional autonomy >> +71.102.53.48 (talk) 09:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

A map would probably belong on a separate page, perhaps a new page entitled Nations and Nationalities of France, or on the Culture of France and French people pages. There's also a separate page for List of historical autonomist and secessionist movements. I disagree with the assertion in the removed text that France has been politically unified for a thousand years. Brittany was independent until the 15th century. Additionally, the proper way to define the historic regions of France is itself controversial, so I would avoid any definitive listing. Occitania, for instance, could be broken down into Aquitaine, Gascony, Languedoc, etc. However, I am certainly open to a well-written introductory paragraph about regional differences in France.--Jsorens (talk) 23:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Albania

I put the info about south albania (Epirus) because it is relevant,since the Greeks in this part of Albania last week organised a protest seeking independence/autonomy of South Albania at the town of Himara.The link is here http://www.a1.com.mk/pda/vestlat.asp?vestid=91743 I will put an english language link if i find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 09:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

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South Kasai

Deleted South Kasai from DRCongo, as it seems it went defunct in 1962, and is not active.

Original Text below

71.212.4.53 (talk) 14:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Image:CaliTricolor.svg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:CaliTricolor.svg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Stlemur (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

California

Are there any cites to show that there are secessionist movements in California? Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really, since the official web site for California Independence groups was taken offline (www.independentCA.org) and might have disbanded sometime ago. Most experts who try to project the future of California politics believe it could be split into two, some say three and even the maximum of four if one includes the "State of Jefferson" with its boundaries located north of Chico or Yuba City, and Ukiah or Santa Rosa. However, the City and County of Los Angeles, and the cojoint City-County of San Francisco can turn into independent city states away from state and federal intervention if it desires, with a fairly large economy to support themselves. California is one of the four states along the US-Mexican border, and the controversial debate over illegal immigration fuels the Aztlan movement and its drive for Hispanic/Mexican communities to secede into a republic or calls for annexation of the state by Mexico. +71.102.32.144 (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Real vs. fictional movements

There should be some delineation between real and fictional seccessionist movements. Otherwise, readers will not understand that some movements are active and genuinely struggling towards independence. To list Cascadia and other pipe dream states that have zero popular support is a disservice to Wikipedia users. I live in Washington and there is absolutely no talk of the creation of this state other than in the minds of a few libertarians huddled in their basements. Furthermore, giving recognition to the criminal members of the self proclaimed Republic of Texas, who also have no public support, is ludicrous.

I think having a listing of the legitimate and active secessionist movements and a separate fictional one would better serve the needs of Wikipedia users.

True secessionist movements are a derived voice of the people living there, not the pipe dreams of a few disaffected individuals. --Luftmann (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree there should be some sort of distinction between strong movements and those that are just a couple guys saying they are unhappy. There are some movements that have had or are going to have political referendums such as Quebec, Puerto Rico, and Southern Sudan. There are the political parties that have gotten a noticeable amount of votes in election such as Padania. There has been military opposition from the parent countries such as Chechnya and Tibet. Some have even sent declaration of Independence to the parent country. Others like Cascadia no one has ever heard of outside a few groups of people. I think there are objective ways to measure how prominent some movements are and those should be listed first. --CK6569 11:30, 13 June 2009

Chile/antofagasta

Where the proof this for? Found nothing about this movement! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny-bollock-rotten (talk • contribs) 08:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Slovakia

As recent commentators here have pointed out, this list is encrusted with references to ethnic groups, regions, or areas which have no 'active autonomist or secessionist movement'. These should be pruned. Slovakia is an example. As removed, it states:

"

But the fact is that the Gorals people have no autonomist movement; nor does the Košice region. The reference to 'Hungarians in Slovakia' having Hungary as their proposed state is neither referenced nor correct. There is no Hungarian secessionist group in the year 2008 with significant membership. The Party of the Hungarian Coalition is not secessionist.

I suggest that editors with knowledge of particular states or countries edit them to remove obsolete or fictional references. ariwara (talk) 12:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


Montenegro

There is no active autonomist and secessionist movement in Montenegro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.3.203 (talk) 11:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's because the Republic of Montenegro was established last June and the goal for independence to become a separate country is completed. The article is subject for constant changes and updates, when a state or territory ever becomes independent or has already seceded. Important to include reliable sources (i.e. pressure group or political organization web sites), but the official web site for an Independent California (or The Republic of California): www.independentca.org was taken offline. + 71.102.32.144 (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Ukraine

I have deleted Subcarpathian Rus, but with hesitation left in Crimea (x2) and Donbas for the moment. Can anyone actually identify any active autonomist or secessionist movement in either, as opposed to national minorities or even national/ethnic groups or parties? Membership of the UNPO is in this context meaningless, as it does not imply any particular attitude to autonomy, independence, or irredentism. ariwara (talk) 21:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC) 1)Crimea - Crimean Tatars political party Milly Firka/unrecogniized Crimean Tatars purliment - medjilis Crimean Russian movement "Sevastopol-Crimea-Rusia" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.98.172.130 (talk) 17:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Western Sahara case

As Western Sahara isn't a sovereign country but a territory, I propose to change this : 

   * Sahrawis
         o Government-in-exile: Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (see foreign relations of Western Sahara) -> biase
         o Political party: Polisario Front
         o De facto state: Free Zone

into this : 

   * (no flag) 
         o Government-in-exile: Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic  
         o Political party: Polisario Front
         o Claimed state: Western Sahara territory  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moroccansahraoui (talk • contribs) 14:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Any changement about the previous proposal on the Western Sahara case?--Moroccansahraoui (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

New Discussion

A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 11:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Merger

Strong support for the merger proposed. Any details on that other article should be transfered across to this one and that article be deleted or redirected if needed. No point in two separate articles dealing with the same issue. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose that this article be merged with any article regarding states or proposed states. That implies legitimacy of all secessionist authorities. De fact in no way implies legitimacy or the will of the people under said authority. PetersV       TALK 18:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I oppose the merger of List of proposed states into this one, because that list is a list of possible unifications, not secessions. They're unrelated articles. Now, retitling the other article to eliminate confusion seems advisable.--Jsorens (talk) 20:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Lithuania

I have deleted the reference to a supposed Polish secessionist movement seeking a "Greater Poland" as I see no evidence that any such movement exists. This is not a list of ethnic minority groups or parties as such. For background see Polish_minority_in_Lithuania, Association_of_Poles_in_Lithuania, Electoral_Action_of_Poles_in_Lithuania. ariwara (talk) 11:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I have now deleted the remainder of the Lithuanian section, which pointed to an organisation named the Samogitian People's Party. The only reference I can find for this organisation is an alternative history website for a fictional state named The Republic of the Two Crowns. ariwara (talk) 16:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

New Zealand

Is there any evidence that any of the Maori groups listed have an autonomist or secessionist policy? I have deleted some groups which, per their Wikipedia pages, no longer exist (and don't seem to have been AA&SMs anyway), and also Tupoe, which is an iwi, not an AA&SM, and the South Island references, which seem to have historical relevance only. ariwara (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think that there is such evidence, and I would be happy to see these groups removed from this page.--Jsorens (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Bad merge?

I clicked from the Isle of Mann article to "List of not fully sovereign nations" and got a redirect to here. That's obviously wrong. The Isle of Mann is a "not fully soverign nation" entirely separate of any secessionist movement. Perhaps "List of not fully sovereign nations" should be recreated; in any case, the redirect doesn't make sense. Chandon (talk) 07:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Marginal, minor and major political influence

This touches upon several movements and discussions above. I propose to differentiate between movements with marginal political influence (very small groups and not an issue in the political landscape), minor political influence (actual political movement) and major political influence (huge impact on the political landscape). Exactly when something goes from marginal to minor or from minor to major is difficult to deceide, but the articles may be used for clarification --Audunmb (talk) 20:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Too difficult/controversial, IMO.--Jsorens (talk) 14:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I sympathize with the suggestion, but agree with Jsorens that it would be impossible to work in practice without constant argument and controversy. ariwara (talk) 20:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism to Portugal section

Somebody using IP addresses which change every day or so is repeatedly adding a long list of supposed groups or parties to the Portugal section. There is no evidence that any of these exist, and none are linked to any other page or site. There are enough non-existent, moribund, or historical groups on this page as it is. Sometimes, he/she also adds a rant of obscene and semi-literate abuse against other editors. While these are regularly deleted, please keep an eye on this section until the troll loses interest. ariwara (talk) 20:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

This is uite obviously a vandal. Those movements do not exist and have never existed. The list added keeps changing as a matter of fact. The IPs used so far, all from Portugal, are:
213.22.161.180 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.64.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.64.169 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.65.177 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.65.78 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.66.111 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.66.118 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.66.157 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.66.177 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.66.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.106 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.170 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.186 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.208 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
213.22.67.80 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
81.84.223.197 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
81.84.223.65 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
81.84.38.188 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
81.84.95.77 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
I shall report it. Let's see what happens. Anyway one must keep a vigilant eye. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 14:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


I got a message saying i was vandalizing Portugal part, when all i did was eliminating all the supposed movements that actually do not exist, so i believe i wasn't vandalizing but trying to protect the truth in wikipedia. Cheers... (213.22.161.180 (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC))
213.22.161.180 is entitled to feel a little hurt... in fact his correction attracted some of the most abusive rants by the vandal. I don't want to fiddle with The Ogre's listing above, but 213.22.161.180 shouldn't be on it. ariwara (talk) 21:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Ariwara, i am 213.22.161.180, and i deleted those a few months ago too, if you see in this same page here[1] you will see that Jsorens agreed that the extinct parties should be removed, leaving only the Democratic Party of the Atlantic in the list, and moving the rest to the historical article, i believe the same should be made now. Regards to all... (Gomes89 (talk) 22:18, 19 March 2009 (UTC))

Sorry, my mistake, with so many different IP's is dificult not to loose track! The Ogre (talk) 15:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

That's alright; there is an old portuguese saying "Errar é Humano" that comes from the latin "Errare humanum est" that means 'to err is human' so it's fine ;) But still i got to insist, the extinct movements should be erased... Cheers (Gomes89 (talk) 20:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC))

Dominion of British West Florida

Wikipedia wont let me edit this article but there is a group that needs to be added to the United States for this Article. Its called the Dominion of British West Florida. It is already on the list for Micro States but its much larger than a micr state and their goal is Autonomy/secession. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Assed206 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't need to be added. It's a hoax. Don't assume that just because somebody sets up an anonymous website they represent an "active movement"! ariwara (talk) 21:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


More about autonomist and secessionist movements in Russia

Chuvashia - Chuvashian national congress - Leader - Atmer Husangai (Атмер Хузангай) Mari El - movement "Mari Usem" and neopagan nationalistic movement "Kugeze Mlande" Mordovia - politic party "Erzyan Mastor" ("Эрзянь Мастор") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.98.172.130 (talk) 06:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If references can be given, preferably in English, these could be added. ariwara (talk) 08:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

1)Erzyan Mastorwww-www.erzia.saransk.ru-site of the newspaper of the movement - in russian and mordovian 2)Chuvashian national congress -www.en.chuvash.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.98.172.130 (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic Groups

Many of the secession movements are for a certain ethnic group or nationality. I think it would help clarify some if there was another category showing which, if any, ethnic group is associated with the movements. CK6569 (talk) 23:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Major Secessionist Movements?

Does anyone have some sort of statistic for the largest and most important movements? They probably have the greatest military and political strength.--Teh Bomb Sophist

What would be your criteria for the level of "importance" of a movement? The percentage of popular approval? Also, please sign your talk entries; thanks. ;) --Liberlogos 21:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Yes, popular approval percentage sounds good. I really, really doubt the existence of much support in say, the U.S., to secede. Another factor is military/para-military strength. For example, I'm not sure if most Basques in Spain and France want their own nation, but the ETA sure makes life difficult. --Teh Bomb Sophist 22:31, 13 May 2005 (PST)

Here are some relatively recent surveys I have found about some of the strongest and/or best known independence movements in the world. These surveys were conducted with different questions and standards, but it still can help one understand better. I may update it in the near future so keep aware. ;) --Liberlogos 05:24, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Kurdistan
    • 2005 informal referendum on independence: 98.7% in favour (you read well!) - [2]
  • Quebec
    • Two 2005 surveys on sovereignty with supra-national partnership: 54% in favour - [3], [4]
  • Basque Country
    • 2005 survey on the Ibarretxe plan: 47% in favour (27% opposed) - [5]
    • 2004 survey on political future: 31% in favour of independence (32% for status quo, 31% for federal model of greater autonomy) - [6]
  • Scotland
    • 2005 survey on independence (probably within the EU): 46% in favour (39% opposed, 15% undecided) - [7]
  • Catalonia
    • 2001 survey on independence: 35.9% in favour (48.1% opposed, 13.3% undecided) - [8] (tell us if you find a more recent one)
  • Taiwan
    • Opinion on independence (unknown date): 30% in favour - [9] (Wikipedia article without reference)
  • Wallonia
    • 2003 survey on political future: 14% in favour of independence (75% for status quo, 36% for reunion with France) - [11]
  • Corsica
    • Survey on independence (unknown date): 13% in favour - [12]
Thanks. I'd think there would be more areas in the world though. Teh Bomb Sophist [Time]

Jersey, Gibraltar, Orkney and Shetland

I have deleted these four entries under the United Kingdom entry. None have active autonomist or secessionist movements (and nor did the article identify any). Jersey is effectively an independent state. Orkney and Shetland had such movements in the 1980s and 1990s but they are not active (unless of course one counts the Scottish independence parties) . There are, I think, several other similar entries which should be deleted under the listings for other states. Ariwara 21:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Jersey is NOT an independent state. It is a Crown Colony, same as the Isle of Man, which is included. A poll conducted a few years ago found that 65% of those polled wished for independence. I have reinstated Jersey. The other three deleted entries are worth musing over, but I am not personally advocating reinstatement yet. RAYMI

  • 'A poll conducted a few years ago found that 65% of those polled wished for independence.' - Evidence of this? Oh and Jersey is not an independent state, but note that Ariwara said 'effectively'
  • Actually it was 68% that supported independence. There is evidence on the net. Apologies not getting a definitive website address here, but I'll try to get one. I found the result via a search via Google. One of the reps to the Jersey Government wishes to force a state referendum. Please note Jersey is on the UN List of Non-Self Governing Territories. RAYMI 07/04/06
  • I thought that there is some sort of Shetland independence party about? If there is then it should be on - however I think they should all be off the list untill we can find evidence for them to go on. Robdurbar 15:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • There was an Orkney and, separately, Shetland Movement. Their combined candidate in a Westminster election scored around thirteen per cent of the vote. They have had elected councillors, and still exist in some form. Further research is needed here. Should anyone with the time-particularly if you own a computer, unlike myself- could do some, I would be grateful. Additionally, there was some minor support for Yorkshire independence via a question posed on the BBC. Try www.bbc.co.uk/news and then enter 'yorkshire independence' via their internal search engine for more info on this. Apologies for my lack of exact info here. Little time, no money. RAYMI 07/04/06
  • Comment - In regard to the Orkney and Shetland movements, they have cut some kind of deal with the Scottish National Party. You might want to check out the links at the Udal law article to find evidence of various pressure groups. Guernsey has been looking at independence. There was an article on this, earlier in the year. One of the options that the politicians were looking at was becoming independent and part of a federation with Jersey. --MacRusgail 12:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Guernsey and Jersey remain "crown colonies" or dependencies of the United Kingdom, but was "integrated" into the structure of Great Britain within the boundaries of Europe like Gibraltar was officially integrated in 1967. Other regional autonomist movements are occurring in England: Cornwall, Devonshire, Isle of Wight, and northern (Cumbria-Yorkshire-Border lands) and southern England (Kent-Minster-Wessex). + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Sovereigntist movements

There are also movements that seek not autonomy for a specific region nor secession, but rather recognition of internal sovereignty (the Tatarstan sovereignty movement and, more recently, the Bangsamoro Juridical Entity). Should the page be renamed / modified to add "sovereigntist" movements? See for example http://kakaalih.i.ph/blogs/kakaalih/2008/08/16/bje-and-the-question-of-independent-statehood-atty-soliman-santos-jr/ . Ladril (talk) 16:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how a territory could have sovereignty without seceding from the nation to which it currently belongs. The linked blog doesn't make that clear either.   Will Beback  talk 
Sovereignty is a political and juridical concept which, put bluntly, means the power to exercise the functions of a nation-state in a defined territory. A key distinction is between internal sovereignty (as exercised within a state's borders) and external sovereignty (means being recognized as the highest authority in the state by other states). Within states that have federal political systems, often some or all subnational divisions have internal sovereignty, while external sovereignty is reserved to the federal government. The interpretation of what this means in practice varies from case to case, but a common element is that the sovereign subnational entity is treated as an equal, not as subordinate within the federal state (this is why, for example, the "sovereigntist" movement in Quebec is different from the "independentist" movement, this last one implying complete secession of Quebec from Canada).
An example of internal sovereignty is that afforded to the each individual state of the USA under the Tenth Ammendment of their Constitution. Quote: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled".


A very good theoretical source is http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sovereignty/ .
There have been self-determination movements within nation-states in which a minority or subnational territory seeks sovereignty, as it is considered a more advanced form of political self-determination than autonomy is. My belief is that the fact should be stressed here. Ladril (talk) 22:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Depsite the language of the Constitution, U.S. states are not sovereign. The federal government has frequently overriden the actions of states, and has even used troops to enforce federal law. While this may be an interesting concept to deal with in some article, I don't think we need to make major changes to this list. If a few groups want something more than autonomy but less then full sovereignty then it'd be sufficient to make a short note next to their entry.   Will Beback  talk  22:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
As for the sovereignty of the US states, I do not want to debate the specifics of each national case, since I lack the specific knowledge required. However the U.S. states are sovereign in a de jure sense at least (whether they are sovereign de facto or not is, in my belief, irrelevant to this discussion). As for the page edits, I agree with you that they can be short notes but also some discussion on what a sovereignty movement is would not hurt. Ladril (talk) 22:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe that'd be better in a separate article if it's a notable topic or if it isn't then a section of the Sovereignty article. Then we could just link to that from this list.   Will Beback  talk  23:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that "sovereignty" in this context simply refers to a particularly robust form of regional autonomy, like that enjoyed by Aaland, the Faroe Islands, or the constituent republics of Serbia and Montenegro from 2003 to 2005.--Jsorens (talk) 22:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. Of course, pinning down exactly what "sovereignty" means depends on the specific context, just as it does for autonomy. See for example this statement from the Mindanao sovereigntists: "The Bangsamoro juridical entity resulting from peace negotiations between government and the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) could be a federal state that is “more advanced” than an autonomous region".
In general terms, a sovereignty movements aims for recognition of the entity as exercising the power of a nation-state. A result of this is that the sovereign entity can decide to remain part of the larger state as a federation or confederation, or it can secede and become independent without consultation with another power. That's not what simple autonomy entails. Ladril (talk) 18:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Tamil situation

Now that the main group seeking for it is 'defunct', should not the whole section for it be then now moved over to List of historical autonomist and secessionist movements? That-Vela-Fella (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

No, way too early for that.--Jsorens (talk) 14:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If so, when is it not "too early" then? I'm not familiar as to what the statute of limitations is set at, if there is even one. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 03:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
There are definitely still Tamil nationalists, so the movement as a whole is very much alive, even if the main violent-nationalist organization has been destroyed within the country (and the LTTE remains active in the diaspora). We had a discussion above about Serbs in Croatia, and the decision was made to keep them as well, even though the truly nationalist Serb parties were driven from the country in 1995. See also Punjab/Khalistan, etc.--Jsorens (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Rather than stating 'defunct', I changed it's status then to militarily inactive. That-Vela-Fella (talk) 19:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe I read they are still active as a guerrilla, though they control much less territory than before. Ladril (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

No territory on the island is left under their control, that is why the government defeated them back in May.That-Vela-Fella (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You're correct. See http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2009jun13_s.html. This is far from being the end of it, however. Ladril (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Manchukuo Temporary Government

lol, this seems to be a joke. Looks like some anti-China or anti-CCP people set this one up (noticeable such people from Japan and possibly Taiwan). I have never for one heard of this, and for those who think this one is at all serious should visit the historical area of Manchuria in China (currently the Northern provinces). And by the limit of the scope of this website I have therefore removed this entry. For those who think this one is even remotely serious, please refer to the Manchukuo article on wikipedia for more information on the former state known as Manchukuo.

Why do I think it's a joke? Because if I needed to, I could also set up a "Vancouver Temporary Government" website promoting the split of Vancouver from B.C, Canada. I think this page should limit itself to significant secessionist movements. Children of the dragon (talk) 09:24, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Entry restored. Leave the assessment concerning seriousness and importance to those who read the entry. Seb az86556 (talk) 09:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the original argument. Anyone with scarcest knowledge of Manchukuo would not regard this a legitimate movement at all. It seems like some Japanese rightists, ten at most, gathered and founded this site: no sign of participation by Manchurian people at all. As for the statement right above, this is not an issue of whether a secessionist movement is popular or not, but rather an issue of does it exist. If we leave this kind of entries this page would be soon crowded with non-existing movements that people create to draw attention. 110.76.94.46 (talk) 06:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
If there's no evidence of a movement apart from an anonymous website, it doesn't belong here.--Jsorens (talk) 19:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. If you look carefully around the site, you can find many of the trappings of a legit independence movement: they have a constitution, they have bonds you can buy, they have a passport (absurd as it is that any country would recognize it, they nonetheless have one), they have a number of articles to persuade people to support Manchu independence, they have a flag, official languages, and so on. They have official branches in a number of countries, including Italy and the US and Taiwan, but most significantly Japan, where it has affiliations with nationalist and anti-Chinese movements. The website claims they organize activities to raise support for Manchu independence. Perhaps their cause is doomed, I believe it is. But that doesn't mean they aren't a legit movement. Lack of publicity is not a legit reason for exclusion, especially considering China's media policies. --Yalens (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, those facts all constitute evidence beyond just an anonymous website and would be reasons for keeping the entry. But do we have any evidence that the movement has support from actual Manchurians? Are they a member of the UNPO? Do they use the Manchu language in any of their literature?--Jsorens (talk) 15:37, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, they have an explicit goal to join UNPO.--Yalens (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think a lot of the arguments you're making are really valid here. First of all, I don't think they (Manchus) HAVE to support the movement (especially now, notably most independence movements took some time to gain the support of their imagined nation, though personally I think Manchuria is doomed, but being doomed doesn't change the fact that the movement is legitimate) for the movement to be legitimate. It's still an independence movement whether it has popular support or not. Bavaria is included, and it is beyond fringe, its ridiculous. And furthermore, the Manchu being largely Sinified isn't an argument either: many independence movements took root in people that were already largely assimilated and/or had very few differences from the majority. In reality, Welsh people or Scots aren't really that different from English people, they (for the most part) speak the same language, practice the same religion, and so on. But are they a different NATION? Yes, because they have a separate history and blablabla. No one even debates that, people can legitimately debate whether Manchuria is a separate nation from China, but because there are people saying it is, that warrants a movement. I can go further: just look at Latin America, or all those Arab states. Egyptians pretty much ARE Arabs, but they consider Ancient Egypt part of their history, and while there are plenty who support unity with other Arab states, just as many if not more consider "Egyptian Arabs" highly separate from other Arabs. And I can go even further with this: oftentimes, the group that wants independence is actually almost completely assimilated, and may I bring up that most of the time, specifically the leaders of the independence movements are the MOST assimilated at all. For example, take Croatia's independence movement: many of its leaders couldn't speak a complete sentence of Croatian until they took to learning it themselves when they were middle-aged and leading the movement, and notably, Gaj was even born "German". Most of the aristocracy of the Czechs couldn't speak a word of Czech either, and the same applies to many such movements: but you see, then "cultural revival", as I'm sure you know (or, should we call it, "cultural reconstruction") occurs. And as for the Manchu "not existing anymore", well, for awhile Cornish people didn't exist anymore, and now they seem to exist again. I don't think any of the arguments you guys put forward really warrant removing.--Yalens (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Lastly, as for printing in the Manchu language, well they are no doubt working on that, especially judging that they have made it official meaning gov't documents must be printed in it; they have some documents, I believe translated on the site, though I haven't checked. However, may I express that Peru still writes most of its documents in Spanish, but considers itself to be an heir of the Inca Empire. The Czech nationalists also printed their official documents in German for awhile; not printing in a dying language that you have revival on teh agenda for the future, that's not really rare... --Yalens (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
"Manchus" by that definition practically do not exist anymore; however, this entry refers to an aspiration to revive Manchukuo, which was never an ethnic state in the first place. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 15:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Sure, but the charge has been made that this is purely a movement by Japanese rightists. If that is true, I'm sure that everyone would agree that the movement isn't "real" and shouldn't be included here. But is it true? Is there any way to know?--Jsorens (talk) 19:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Even if - how would any purported origin make it any more or any less "real"? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
It's not a real autonomist or secessionist movement if it doesn't exist among the group that would become autonomous. If I made a website demanding the independence of West Tonga from Tonga, that doesn't mean that there suddenly exists an "autonomist or secessionist movement" in West Tonga. In response to Yalens, whether the group is assimilated culturally or not is not the issue; the issue is whether it has any support in the target population. The Bavarian example is not apposite, because the Bavaria Party is a longstanding organization with a clear political program, candidates for elected office, and some support, however small, in the population of Bavaria.--Jsorens (talk) 14:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

If you look carefully around the site you can see this: To archive the dream, I have the following suggestions: Unify with Japan Right Wing societies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.218.87 (talk) 06:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah that's kinda what I expected. Regardless of the chances a real Manchurian independence movement would have, there's 0 evidence that it actually exists, and that at least would indicate that it IS a hoax (or wishful thinking from Japanese rightists). Doesn't really matter, so long as it's not covered by secondary sources it shouldn't be on Wikipedia. SnowFire (talk) 02:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

2nd largest?

I have a question. So, the Kurds are the largest ethnic group with no state anywhere to call their own, right? Okay, what's the second largest? I'm very curious to know. I know there are several language/ethnic groups in India that are millions strong, but they at least have some degree of autonomy right? I have looked for a list of this nature but have not found one on the web. Not ranked by size anyway. Malnova 01:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Berbers http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_demanding_a_separate_state
One may count the Palestinians to be currently the world's largest stateless people, except the Palestinian Authority has partial global recognition, international diplomatic relations with a hundred-some countries (mostly of the Arab World and Muslim majority nations) and the guarantee of sovereignity by the Israeli government in accordance to the 1994 Oslo Peace Accords. Despite that promise, the Israeli armed forces still occupy the Gaza strip and West Bank, and the freely elected Palestinian Hamas government (in power from 2005-2008) sought to destroy Israel whom restored the PLO/Fatah government in 2009 (the Israeli military operation in Gaza). + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Indonesia

Several months ago I deleted Riau, Sulawesi, Bali, and Eastern Java from list of active movements in Indonesia. But Yalens undo my revisions and told me to discuss it here before. As I'm aware, there's no such movements in Indonesia currently. So could someone here provide me the source of those "movements" or could we just re-delete them from the list? Please discuss it here. -iNu- (talk) 11:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we can simply just delete items on the list that have been there for awhile simply because one editor, or perhaps a number don't know about them. Personally, I haven't even heard of Riau, though trickle of information about independence asp8irations on Bali appear now and then. Of course, that's OR, but just as its not easy to say for sure without personal evidence that it exists, its also difficult to say that it DOESN'T exist. Governments surpress these things and prevent media coverage on them, and so I think the best solution to the issue would be to leave a note saying "little information" or whatnot and leave it at that. It's rather hard to say yes for sure that it exists or doesn't, you know what I mean (no, I wasn't the one who put them there to begin with). Though, it is pretty well-known that every now and then, there's little pipes about Bali, whether that means there is an independence movement or not... who knows. But I'd rather not just take them off the list, you know?
As for Bali, what I know is that unlike most of the rest of Indonesia, they are Hindu. Naturally, they want autonomy, and that's pretty much well-known. "Autonomous regions" are on the list, no? (though, they have some degree of autonomy already). And as for separatism, we should keep in mind that autonomist movements can quickly morph into separatism, as seen with Albania, etc.--Yalens (talk) 15:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think our discussion should be based on Wikipedia policy, WP:VERIFY. Quoted from the policy, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". So, the question, is there any reliable source that support the inclusion of Riau, Sulawesi, Bali, and Eastern Java into this list? I don't know who added such information, but I think it could be a Vandalism or just a thought of a user. So, if it is difficult to decide its existence, the solution is to look for reliable source, no matter how government surpress it and prevent media coverage on them.
As for Bali, again, can you provide source? If it's just your thought or your friend's thought that "Naturally, Bali want autonomy since they're Hindu", I think it violates WP:VERIFY. And also, Bali currently DOES NOT have any degree of autonomy in Indonesia, formally and informally. They're just like other regular provinces. -iNu- (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Search for "Bali separatism" (without quotes) on Google and you will find several pages. This article is an example, although not necessary of active groups. Also, I think when you live in a country that is mentioned, you should be very careful when you add or remove items from this list, as people tend to be biased towards the country they live in (either positive or negative). This is not mentioned personally, but I think people tend to be that way in general, as they are raised in the country in question and therefore perceive information differently. In other words: people tend to be biased without them even realizing it. Personally, I would refrain myself from adding or removing any items from this list when the country is one you feel closely attached to. Cheers, Van der Hoorn (talk • contribs) 22:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is definitely a movement in the Riau Islands, a fairly significant one. I too favor a policy that leans toward inclusion, partly on the grounds that many movements in the developing world fly under the radar because they are a) often proscribed or repressed and b) often not reported on in English-language media. If there is some evidence that a movement existed in the past few years, it should be kept on the active list until we have definitive information that it has gone defunct.--Jsorens (talk) 22:46, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think there we have it... (should've just done some research myself). Indonesia is a European invention in the first place, rather than an indigenous unification, so its really only natural to think that the non-ethnic Javanese regions of the federation would like to see this undone (not to mention much sympathy for what happened to the Timorese and West Papuans with the Suharto dropping bombs on them as if watering plants, and resulting bad views of the country as a whole from minority groups). And generally, its very common for minority groups that have previously had countries of their own before being brutally conquered to want their independence back. Rather, something would be an exception if that WASN'T the case (not that you could just add an entry for that reason though, I'd suggest at least some knowledge on the issue and familiarity, etc., as well as some knowledge of what might be a movement)- people want to preserve their cultures and all, and we're talking any independence, or even better, autonomist movement. If no members of the percieved nationality, even the most radical, want independence despite originally having their independent state conquered in the past, it would be -special-.--Yalens (talk) 23:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Granted, I'm not Indonesian, but I will now like to get to that anyhow: I think, as some others have stated- if the country that said movement supposedly wants to break from is your country, or at least one you feel a strong connection to (relatives, etc., whatnot), I'd refrain from editing it. If you have an article on it to add, then fine, but otherwise, its only natural that your attachment to your own country could have an effect on your editing. This of course, is probably present in ALL countries: here in the US for sure. The news is discouraged from reporting about separatism here, and as a result, very few Americans that a huge chunk of the US is actually controlled by a Lakota Sioux-run independent state. There is almost no coverage of it, DESPITE IT ALREADY BEING DE FACTO INDEPENDENT. Now just imagine how much nonsuccessful movements are covered up from the public eye (especially when a number are underground from the first place). But, people from other countries are more likely to know, especially those bordering the country in question. I think it would be good to generally make a general unsaid rule that if you are from China, don't edit the China section, US the US section, Russia the Russia section, etc. --Yalens (talk) 23:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
What is your evidence that a "huge chunk of the US is actually controlled by a Lakota Sioux-run independent state." and that they are "DE FACTO INDEPENDENT"?CK6569 (talk) 20:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Circassia

So, as it stands right now, the page has no mention of Circassia.

However, Circassian nationalism is well-known, and there are a number of websites dedicated to it, with much articles on how the process is going. In the least, they want a unified Circassia (including the Kabardin part of Kabardino-Balkaria, the Cherkess part of Karachay-Cherkessia, Adygeya, as well as all historically Circassian lands: Sochi, Anapa, Tuapse, Kursavka, Yessentuki, etc.), with full autonomy, and I could dump hundreds of sources right now, but I'd rather just leave a few sites, and the mention that Unified "Greater Circassia"'s autonomy and independence groups are already officially a member of UNPO, meaning its rather impossible to deny their existence.

As for my long list of sources, lets start here:\ First, Jamestown... http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=34879 http://www.iwpr.net/?p=p&s=f&o=159562&apc_state=hENf-159565 http://www.circassianworld.com

The last is a whole website dedicated to Circassians and their culture, and implicitly (as the abundance of such articles said) at least autonomy.

I will be adding it momentarily. Any objections?

But the question is this: what to do about the Kabardino-Balkaria, Adygea and Karachay-Cherkessia ones? As far as I know, there are no movements to have any of those three as separate countries, rather, the movements are generally all for the incorporation into "Historical Circassia" (call it irridentist if you wish, it wouldn't be far of the mark). I won't be deleting them yet, but if no one pipes up, I will...--Yalens (talk) 23:43, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Chechen Republic of Ichkeria or Caucasus Emirate: Which is Legitimate?

We list both the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and the Caucasus Emirate as active secessionist movements. Since they both encompass the same land area, and it seems as if the Emirate is the new movement, could someone either clear this up, or just remove the Chechen Republic from the list?

Bkissin (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Both are legitimate. The Chechen Republic, as comprising of a SECULAR republic occupying ONLY ICHKERIA (i.e. Chechnya as said by people who don't use the pejorative term; you could also say "Chechenia" in English if you want), is advocated by many people and notably represented by the government in exile. The Caucasus Emirate, meanwhile, is advocated by the underground Umarov-Udugov gov't still in the region. They are different from each other, and two separate state aspirations. Though, many people, such as Tony Wood, have questioned whether the Caucasus Emirate was in fact legitimate: it could, as Wood says (hahaha) simply be an attempt by Umarov to reduce the focus on Chechnya and move the Russian soldiers away from Chechnya (into Dagestan, etc.) so that they can retake their homeland. A highly amoral strategy, but they are desperate, so its believable. Nonetheless, both are legitimate movements. --Yalens (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
One could even make note of a THIRD movement, which advocates an independent Chechnya with Ingushetia and Dagestan, which even Kadyrov has toyed with now and then. Nonetheless, this is not exactly legitimate as it is, as I see it at least, simply an attempt at a power grab by Kadyrov and/or his associates. --Yalens (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
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