Jump to content

Talk:John Kerry

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 67.15.76.242 (talk) at 12:24, 8 February 2006 (→The toolong tag). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconUnited States Unassessed
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
???This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Template:Todo priority Template:TrollWarning


Click here to read previous talk pages in the ARCHIVE
"A fair and well-documented biography of John F. Kerry" [1] — BushCountry.org (August 2, 2004).

Impeachment?

Has anyone heard about Senator Kerry calling for the impeachment of President Bush? [2] 192.168.139.130 15:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

JP, your comments sound very POV to me.192.168.128.130 07:20, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You sound too biased. Please recuse yourself from editing this article. 66.98.130.128 07:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue here is that someone has expressed concern with your potential bias, and you have dismissed it with a little bit of smark and a "bush joke", not very professional--Ytrewqt 04:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds silly to me. If you were KKK and said that, everyone would laugh. Just because you are a whatever does not mean you can get away with being biased. 66.98.130.138 14:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Kerry on Face the Nation TV show 12.04.05

According to this (http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_120405.pdf) CBS transcipt, from the Dec. 4th, 2005 show, Senator Kerry said this:

"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the-of-the historical customs, religious customs."

I think this should be mentioned in the John Kerry article. Comments? Suggestions? 192.168.139.130 15:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

JP, I am not sure what your concerns are. Are you saying that we should not tell the readers about Kerry's Face the Nation comments? This seems noteworthy to me. Should I log in and make the edits myself? 66.98.130.139 16:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If you're not sure what my concerns are, please read WP:NPOV. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that the above suggestion is a good one - the quote by Kerry about "American soldiers" "terrorizing kids and children" is an important one - considering the current crisis in Iraq. Did Kerry mispeak? Does anyone have more information about this? 66.98.131.200 17:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

John Kerry / Ramsey Clark / Saddam Hussein connection ?

According to this photo here: http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4678/alhubbardkerry15vj.jpg, John Kerry was accociated with Ramsey Clark during his Vietnam War protest days. And, according to the Canadian Press (in the Vancouver Sun, December 05, 2005, [3]), Ramsey Clark is Saddam's laywer. Has anyone else read anything about the connection between Kerry/Clark and Hussein? Is Kerry still close with Clark? 192.168.139.130 15:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ramsey Clark is Saddam's attorney because Ramsey Clark is a media whore. That's just how he rolls. I'm not sure what the point of trying to connect the dots is here.. -- Jbamb 15:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protection policy

I edit anonymously for a variety of reasons, all of which I feel have merit. I'd prefer to keep it that way. "Semi-protection" is a true assertion, but "temporarily restricted" is a falsehood. Those who pushed this policy through are certainly focused on keeping protection of this type "always-on" at various political articles. 192.168.183.77 01:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1996, 2004 and other Kerry fundraising issues

I was reading the talk page archives for John Kerry and I see that there was a lot of arguing and bickering about a bunch of crap, but I also see that something valuable may have been lost in the shuffle. What about Kerry's 1996 and 2004 fundraising issues? Why is there no mention of that?

"Senator John Kerry, D-MA, unwittingly tried to help a Chinese espionage agent and arms dealer in 1996 in return for campaign contributions for his Senate reelection campaign, according to congressional and other documents, interviews, and photographs." [4]
"The Kerry campaign was also confronted with a report in the current issue of Newsweek that the senator's office contacted federal regulators to assist a friend of Johnny Chung, a central figure in the 1996 fund-raising scandals, shortly before Chung threw a fund-raiser for Kerry's Senate re-election campaign that year." [5]
"A controversial Chinese-American businessman embroiled in the much-investigated 1996 fundraising scandal has re-emerged as a donor to three Democratic presidential campaigns" [6]
"According to the Federal Election Commission records Kerry has taken money from Bernard Schwartz the CEO of Loral Corporation, convicted China-gate figure Johnny Chung, convicted China-gate figure John Huang, and convicted fundraising scandal figure Mark Jimenez." [7]
"On the campaign trail, Kerry routinely attacks the president for his ties to big-dollar donors. Kerry championed campaign-finance reform, and refused money from corporate or labor political-action committees. But in some ways, he has played the Washington money game as aggressively as the Republicans he scolds." [8]
"Stung during the 1990s Democrat fund-raising controversy, John Kerry is returning a $2,000 check from the son of South Korea's disgraced ex-president after learning the donor was charged with tax evasion." [9]
"The Justice Department's Campaign Financing Task Force filed an information today charging Johnny Chung with using straw donors and his own donations to exceed federal limits in contributing to the Clinton/Gore reelection campaign, and to U.S. Senator John Kerry's 1996 reelection campaign." [10]
"Kerry has received more money from lobbyists over the past 15 years than any other serving senator. Some of Kerry's close links with lobbyists have raised eyebrows among supporters used to his campaign slogan: 'From the moment I take up office, I will stand up to special interests.'" [11]

I think some of this information needs to be mentioned in some form. 67.15.77.183 02:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't checked any of the links, but, just going from memory, I think the story was something like this: Chung wanted to make donations in excess of the legal maximum. He knew that, if he did so directly, the campaign would refuse the money. Instead, he gave money to employees and/or family members, so that the recipients could make the donations in their own names, giving the impression that the donations were coming from separate individuals and were therefore legal. The scheme later came to light, and Chung was indicted. Neither Kerry nor any of his campaign staffers were charged with any wrongdoing; prosecutors determined that there was no way the campaign could have known what Chung took pains to conceal. Nevertheless, once Kerry learned that the donations were illegal, he returned the money.
If that's the essence of what happened, I'd say it's a nonstory -- at least for purposes of this article -- because it doesn't shed much light on John Kerry. It's not at all uncommon for candidates (Democratic or Republican) to find out after the fact that one of their donors has broken the law. There are cheaters like Chung, and then there are people who are just oblivious to the fine points.
Are there some other facts that make this matter worth including? JamesMLane 07:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


"How deeply involved in Kerry's fundraising was Chung? And how did Chung get involved in Kerry's campaign to begin with? American electoral law forbids foreigners from donating money to American candidates, and one would presume that consular officials would be held to an even higher standard. Now that Chung has been identified as an intelligence agent, the Kerry campaign needs to answer questions about how he gained access to their donors -- who introduced him, who benefitted, and how much money changed hands."
"This is not the first time Kerry has been associated with Asian intelligence services looking to penetrate his campaigns. As I noted back in February, Kerry met with a woman who turned out to be a Chinese spy after a $10,000 donation to his Senate campaign from Johnny Chung, who later went to prison for illegal campaign funding" [12] 66.98.131.200 22:35, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


"Although Kerry supported McCain/Feingold, he has been a prolific fundraiser has been caught up in some of the nation's most well-publicized campaign finance scandals."

"As chair of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee in the 1980s, Kerry selected Florida banker David Paul to head an important Democratic fundraising organization. Paul was later indicted in the Savings and Loan scandal. He was also among the congressional recipients of illegal contributions from a San Diego-based defense contractor, Science and Applied Technology, whose head was charged with 40 counts of conspiracy, illegal campaign contributions, and fraud." [13] 70.84.56.166 22:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


"According to Newsweek magazine, Kerry met with Liu Chaohying, a Hong Kong businesswoman who wanted to have her company listed on the U.S. Stock Exchange. Kerry lobbied on her behalf by helping to organize a meeting between Liu Chaohying and a senior Securities and Exchange (SEC) official. In return, Kerry accepted a $10,000 contribution in the form of a Beverly Hills Fundraise on Sept 9, 1996, less than a month before the election, Newsweek reported. It would later be established that Liu Chaohying was not simply a profit-motivated businesswoman, but rather a lieutenant colonel in the Communist China’s Peoples Liberation Army. Newsweek reported that more than $28,000 in illegal contributions were funneled into the campaign of then President Bill Clinton and Kerry, and that “the contributions came out of $300,00 in overseas wire transfers sent on orders from the chief of the Chinese military intelligence – and routed through a Hong Kong bank account controlled by Liu Chaohying." The Los Angeles Times reported that Senator Kerry sent 28 letters on behalf of San Diego defense contractor Parthassarthi “Bob” Majumder between 1996 and 1999 in order to “free up federal funds” for a guided missile system designed by Majumder. In return, court documents show, Majumder induced his employees to contribute approximately $25,000 to Senator Kerry’s campaign, while paying them proceeds from the government tracts in return." [14] 67.15.77.161 22:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

John Kerry and Ben Barnes (of Bush National Guard fame)

"Ben Barnes, former Lieutenant Governor of Texas, will tell CBS audiences that he arranged for Bush's assignment, expecting that the Bush family would be grateful for the assistance even though no one asked him for his help. CBS also will tie in the fact that Bush had a drinking problem at the time, although Bush himself admitted that years ago... [B]en Barnes' status as the third largest contributor to John Kerry's campaigns should render any testimony from him completely invalid... Do you think that the Tiffany Network will mention Ben Barnes' finance connections to John Kerry when discussing his testimony regarding George Bush, in that he has half a million reasons to make up bogus charges against the President? Not likely. [15]
"Ben Barnes has a large vested interest in the outcome of the 2004 election. He is a co-chairman of John F. Kerry’s 2004 presidential campaign. Barnes, as CBS News reported in June 2004, has made bundled contributions of more than $500,000 to Kerry’s campaign. Barnes owns a home near his friend Kerry’s home in Nantucket on the Massachusetts shore." [16]

Another interesting fact about Kerry fundraising - Kerry's 3rd biggest contributor (Ben Barnes) was one of the primer-movers of the Bush/ANG storyline. 66.98.131.200 22:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

fundrasing section

I do not think two ominous sounding pull quotes amounts to a proper section of an encyclopedia article. I will continue to remove any section which consists solely of large quotes and no real material unless consensus arises that the inclusion of such a section is desired. Gamaliel 03:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unilateral threats are not nice. Also, the fundraising issues certainly are notable. Simply because you don't like these uncomforable facts, does not give you carte blanche to delete them. And, by my reading above, several editors have already agreed about these over the last 10 ays or so. Instead of making a fight, why don't you look for a softer way to report the notable fact that Kerrry has had some fundraising issues? Also, Gamaliel, I am pretty sure you have violated 3rr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.15.76.24208:22, January 6, 2006 (talk • contribs)

I don't find these facts "uncomfortable", I don't find them to be anything at all. My objections have nothing to do with the substance of these issues or the POV, I simply don't think that a section entirely consisting of two large quotes is a proper format for an encyclopedia article. Stop making assumptions about my motives and making false 3RR accusations and please address the objection I actually have. Gamaliel 08:27, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My math is pretty good and I have counted Gamaliel's edits. He has indeed exceeded 3RR in the last 24 hours. Also, he is the one who has problem with these facts and the presentation of them. Therefore, if Gamaliel doesn't like the presentation, he should help improve it. If not, then his complaints and reverts smack of POV whitewashing. Fact: Kerry has had some campaign $$ problems. Fact: Other than this section which Gamaliel keeps deleting, there is nothing in the article which speaks to that. Fact: Gamaliel's continual reverts on this are a gross violation of community spirit are POV.
How are your false accusations of a 3RR violation and "POV whitewashing" in the spirit of this community? Gamaliel 08:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3RR violation at John Kerry

Gamaliel violated the 3RR rule at John Kerry 1/5-1/6. Here are the diffs:

  1. 05:19, 5 January 2006 - [17]
  2. 05:23, 5 January 2006 - [18]
  3. 09:03, 5 January 2006 - [19]
  4. 02:54, 6 January 2006 - [20]
  5. 08:18, 6 January 2006 - [21]

If you study the reverts he made, they were clearly made against non-vandal edits. For this reason, Gamaliel should not be allowed to flaunt the 3RR simply because he's pushing his own preferred text instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.15.76.242 (talk • contribs) 08:22, January 6, 2006

Nice try, but the first two "reverts" are simply replacing material from different sections in different edits, with an explaination in each edit summary. This is totally unlike your real 3RR violation, hiding behind different IP addresses. Gamaliel 08:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Ok, I've looked here and on the Kerry page, and I'll probably look more, but don't expect any action. I generally don't deal with 3RR because people can't do the reports the right way. I'm even less likely when they are on my userpage or in the article page as opposed to WP:3RR. Wikibofh(talk) 15:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please

Work out your differences. I see we have an edit war getting some fire. If it continues, I will protect the page. Work it out. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 14:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request

Can one of the people who have been dealing with this article for several months look at the recent edits and make sure the article isn't being made worse? I'm not knocking the anons...alot of their edits look good...but it's so many that I'm having a hard time following them. Thanks. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 10:03, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


A lot of detail is being removed under the guise of "tightening things up". For example "as time went on Kerry found that VVAW was becoming more radical. Kerry was trying to moderate the group, to push it in the direction of nonviolence and working within the system. Other members, however, were more militant. Kerry eventually quit the organization over this difference in approach." has been replaced with "Kerry eventually quit the organization in disagreement over methods." To me this isn't an improvement; this isn't tightening anything, it's making it much more vague, which serves no one.
I don't know the agenda, if any, of the person or persons making the edits, but some edits make me suspicious, such as the removal of the fact that his first wife supported Kerry's presidential bid, or that Kerry's BCCI investgation targeted prominent members of his own party. This coupled with the repeated insertion of this vague "fundraising" non-section makes me thing there's some subtle pov-shifting going on.
Many of the edits I disagree with fall under the "colorful detail" department; quotes or pieces of information, while not absolutely vital to the article, make it in my mind more interesting and less dry. Gamaliel 19:24, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing I just noticed. The sentence "John Kerry is member of the Democratic Leadership Council, which advocates centrist and neoliberal positions, and he has co-sponsored Senate legislation with such prominent conservatives as Pennsylvania's Rick Santorum." has been removed from the "Issues and voting record" section with the edit summary "tighten this". This so-called "tightening" has stripped that paragraph of any mention of Kerry's centrist positions and left it with nothing but a discussion of how liberal Kerry is or isn't. Is this really tightening?
And didn't Rex keep removing that particular sentence when he was here? Gamaliel 19:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gamaliel. I haven't been keeping close track of this page, partly because I got so sick of all the edit wars here and I hoped that things would quiet down with Rex's departure. Quick looks, however, gave me the impression that useful information was being removed. I'll try to find a bloc of time to look at the recent changes. JamesMLane 20:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the complainers here would do better to step back and see this article for what it is - overstuffed with too many details. Kerry's track record and past history is interesting enough without all the overkill. In fact, when you have too much "colorful detail" in an article, it turns to crap (mix a whole box of crayons in a blender and you get crap color). Kerry is not under attack and we do not have to justify him to people. Has anyone seen the Hillary Clinton article? The same thing is starting to happen over there - people keep trying to stuff extra stuff in to make here look "good", but all the extra stuff makes the article itself look stupid. Some editors here have been tricked by past POV wars. All the past battling made you loose sight of the goal that an article must be interesting to read. It must be precise, succinct, accurate, fair and interesting. What good is a narrative that tells us about the good things Kerry has done, while been so overstuffed with non-notable irrelevancies that the article itself ends up sounding like an apologist's excuse screed? This article has at least 30% too many words in it. 70.84.56.185 02:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You make some valid points, but we could talk generalities at each other for days. How about you discuss some of the reasons for a few of the specific edits you have made? To have someone remove a large amount of material at once, including some of the details I noted above which some might see as favorable to Kerry, while at the same time inserting a vague non-section of nothing but two ominous quotes about Kerry fundraising looks suspicious, and discussing your reasons for some of these specific edits might alieviate the concerns people have about these changes. Gamaliel 04:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
hmmm, article is too long -- has too many details is not a very compelling argument. it's the same argument Rex started to use towards the end; i believe he also felt it was about 30% too long. that may be true, but it's so generic as to be a useless complaint. it's also a dangerous argument, as one can "justify" just about any removal of fact using it. the standard procedure when an article starts to get bogged down in detail is to move the excess detail to a daughter article while leaving a reasonable summary in the main one. see e.g. the bill frist cat-executioner article. (i'm sorry you had to see that reference, woohoo).Derex 22:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Semi protected

Article is semi protected after a number of unsubstantiated edits and deletions by anon user(s). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with the protection. The anon user was removing sourced information, quoting that "he wasn't sure they were right." Furthermore, he said that removing content was not vandalism, and that his edits were "good edits". After I warned him for the first time, the user left an insulting message on my talk page, saying that "my edits are better than anything you have ever contributed". Therefore, I agree with the temporary protection of this article, to ensure that the sourced information on this page remains intact.<<Coburn_Pharr>> 05:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The correct course of action when there is a single problematic IP is to block that IP rather than restricting all IPs. This should be unprotected post-haste; and you should be quite sure that the edits were in bad faith before labelling them as simple vandalism. -Splashtalk 05:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It would have to be a range block, as at least 8 different addresses were used to make these edits. I'd think it would be better to restrict access in this minor way (since people can just get accounts anyway) than to block a whole range, including possibly legit users both with and without accounts. Gamaliel 05:34, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, that would make sprotect the right course. Are all those edits really bad-faith vandalism? Or is this just a content dispute with an anon? (PS: remember there's a 4 day delay after registering to edit a semi'd page.) -Splashtalk 05:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I forgot about the 4 day delay, though IMHO that's still better than a range block. Gamaliel 05:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


................ In the paragraph 'Return from Vietnam', I corrected the false implication the Kerry completed all his obligations. When commissioned, Kerry's obligation was three years on active duty. He signed an extension to that obligation. At one time, some of Kerry's military records were on www.johnkerry.com. Has anyone seen the records lately? CorvetteZ51 13 January 2006

Hmmmmm

Anon 70.64.56.165 has created Talk:John_Kerry/sb1. I've asked him to explain his intentions here. In general, stuff like that isn't allowed in the main namespace unless it has been discussed with others first. I'm very close to protecting the main page. Not a sprotect. A full protect. We seem to have a brewing edit war and I'd like to nip it in the bud. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 10:29, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will you please stop over-reacting. These edits, in aggregate, are fair, accurate, NPOV and serve the noble goal of trimming this article from being too large ("My main goal on Wikipedia is to make it as clean and concise as possible"). Wiki tells us to "be bold" and yet, whk goes round making protection threats. Personally, I feel the burden is on the complaining party (in this instance woohookitty) to specifically critique the edits he/she now complains about. And as for SB1, are you saying you'd rather not have a sandbox? If I were trying to be sneaky, I would never have saved the page - I would have used preview only. The sandbox page was to engage in full-transparency editing. I am sorry if that offended you. 192.168.165.56 10:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think you are the one overreacting. I am not complaining about your edits nor am I labeling you "sneaky" or anything else. I have a feeling that you are lumping me in with the people that have reverted your changes. I'm neutral on this article...always have been. It takes 2 sides (or more) to edit war. So me saying I might have to protect the page is not me judging your edits or anything else. Honestly, I don't have a feeling about what's going on here. I just see a brewing edit war and in general, we try to stop those. As for the sandbox, no, sandboxes are generally not permitted in the article namespace. I don't know how much you are familiar with Wikipedia, but we have several namespaces. Sandboxes are usually limited to the Wikipedia namespace (Wikipedia:Sandbox) or userspaces. I would suggest creating an account, so you can have your own sandbox. You can use your userpage for basically anything, including sandboxes. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 11:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
70.84.56.165, would you mind if your Talk:John_Kerry/sb1 page was moved to User talk:70.84.56.165/sb1? It's not that the sandbox itself is the problem, it's location is. -- Mr. Tibbs 00:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I was trying to say. I need to take succinct classes. ;-) --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 01:16, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a look at the latest changes since I've been away. This time it's a whole bunch of new items removed, including, puzzlingly, any mention of Kerry's first wife's clinical depression which ended their marriage and Kerry's involvement in a small business. Troubling is, among other things, the continued removal of material showing Kerry's centrist leanings and the anon's refusal to discuss his/her edits in any significant way beyond saying "I'm trimming". Gamaliel 02:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would just like to point out that User:66.98.130.204 and User:70.84.56.165 appear to be the same person and 66.98.130.204 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has recently taken to vandalizing userpages. [22] -- Mr. Tibbs 05:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

I protected the page to nip this brewing edit war in the bud. You guys are using the edit summaries to "discuss" this. No. Discuss it here. Work out your differences. I'm keeping it protected until that happens. Thanks. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 06:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And before I hear "you protected the wrong version!". :) I'm neutral on this. I happened to protect an anon version but I don't favor any of the sides here. I just want it worked out. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 06:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fundraising problems

There is no mention of Kerry's fundraising issues. Why does this keep getting deleted? 67.15.76.110 23:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

interwiki template

Could someone please add {{wikisource author}} under the external links section? Thanks!—Zhaladshar (Talk) 20:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh

No discussion since this last round of protection was implemented. We'll unprotect and see what happens. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 10:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected

I recently semi-protected the article because of anonymous users blanking large parts of the article without consensus or a good reason. Please discuss major ommissions of sourced content first. --LBMixPro<Speak|on|it!> 09:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Law school

I tried adding " Boston College, 1976 " to the infobox, but I am not permitted to do so. Someone with editing capacity can add it. Potatoe 22:16, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did it consistent with the other congressional biographies you've been doing. NoSeptember talk 22:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


too much pre-history

nobody cares about Kerry's childhood friends. This article should feature, Kerry's, Senate career, 2004 presidential campaign, and his political beliefs.--CorvetteZ51 09:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - there is too much irrelevant and fawing detail in this article. 66.98.130.204 07:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Family background

I think this section needs to be seriously re-considered. It, by nature, drifts from the focus of the article and, can be surely said more concisely. I would do this myself but I feel that someone more well informed should be the one to do it, not me. -- Greaser 09:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - there is too much irrelevant detail in this article. 66.98.130.204 06:55, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've begun doing it. A lot of information, which may be encyclopedic about Kerry's grand mother. Here is the information: "A Czech historian believes that Ida was a descendant of Sinai Loew, one of three older brothers of Rabbi Judah Loew (1525-August 22, 1609), a famous Kabbalist, philosopher and talmudist known as the Maharal of Prague. Two of Ida Kohn's siblings, Otto Loewe and Jenni Loewe, died in the Nazi concentration camps (Theresienstadt and Treblinka, respectively), after being deported from Vienna in 1942."
Whether or not that's worth making a seperate article on is a seperate debate entirely. It starts to get really murky thereafter though. -- Greaser 08:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're nearing SP again

This article was quiet for a couple of months in November and December 2005. Not sure why we're back to vandal heaven. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 09:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Woohookitty, I don't know where you get off labeling all the edits you disagree with as "vandal heaven". This is a personal attack - please stop. 67.15.76.244 07:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Divorce then annulment - both must be mentioned

Kerry was divorced and subsequently was granted a Catholic Church annulment. That annulment had no legal force or effect. Had Kerry not been divorced 1st, under civil law, he would still have been married to his 1st wife. Please see CNN which clearly states he was divorced. See WashingtonBlade.com which clearly states "Kerry eventually received the annulment from the Boston diocese despite Thorne’s vehement objections." and "John Kerry obtained both a divorce and annulment". In fact, the sidebar of the article is so illuminating on this topic, it's worth printing verbatim, here: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.168.244.76 (talk • contribs)

copyvio removed by Derex 07:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since Derex is deleting important information from this page, please go to the WB article itself and read the sidebar there: http://www.washblade.com/2004/3-5/news/national/kerryback.cfm 67.15.76.244 07:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First, you simply can't post a copyvio, you already linked it. Second, the article already stated he was divorce in 88 & annulled in 97. What's your issue? Derex 07:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Derex, I could ask you the same question. The sentence you are trying to hide "Kerry eventually received the annulment from the Boston diocese despite Thorne’s vehement objections." is properly sourced but bugs you because of the misleading Thorne angle you prefer to push. The above FACT is true, sourced and NPOV. The onus is one you, Derex, if you want it excised. 192.168.232.76 08:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to "hide" a thing. That's why I just asked you a question. Your retort and accusation is incredibly rude, and I'd suggest you read WP:AGF. You were caterwauling about no mention of a divorce, when there was one. Then you made a quite large and redundant edit. Feel free to add the phrase "annulment over Thorne's objection" to the current text .... that doesn't really require a whole new and redundant paragraph, does it? And, it would be nice if you could find a more credible reference than the Blade. Derex 14:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh, for the record, the information the anon was trying to insert was in fact wrong. Thorne did not contest the annulment, and supported Kerry's remarriage: an April 10, 1997 story in the Patriot Ledger:

"[Julia] Thorne said she does not think she needs to contest Kerry's request for an annulment because she does not recognize the validity of the proceeding, and wants to allow Kerry and Heinz to participate fully in church practices." There are multiple other sources in credible newspapers for this. For example, Washington Times: "Mrs. Thorne says she still supports Mr. Kerry politically and is glad he is happy in his new marriage to Heinz food fortune heiress Teresa Heinz." Derex 17:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Derex, your supposed proof that the information you are censoring is "in fact wrong" suffers from three flaws: #1) You do not have a source link, but the other information does 2)You are quoting from 1997, the other information quotes from 2004 and 3) The Patriot Ledger is a podunk, biased, Eastern Massachusetts pro-Kerry newspaper and is NOT as good of a source as the Washington Blade. Once again, for the record - see WashingtonBlade.com which clearly states "Kerry eventually received the annulment from the Boston diocese despite Thorne’s vehement objections." 66.98.130.224 11:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The toolong tag

it is meant for the talk page, not the main page. Thanks. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 11:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide link to Wiki page that says that. 67.15.76.242 12:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:John_Kerry&oldid=38755302"