Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog

This is the talk page for discussing changes to the Shiloh Shepherd dog article.
Please sign your comments using four tildes (`~~~~`). Place comments that start a new topic at the bottom of the page and give them ==A Descriptive Header==. If you're new to Wikipedia, please see Welcome to Wikipedia and frequently asked questions.	Talk page guidelines Please respect Etiquette, assume good faith and be nice.

Archives of older discussions may be found here:

Archives: Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, Archive 4, Archive 5, Archive 6, Archive 7, Archive 8, Archive 9, Archive 10

Here lies the problem

Quote: It surprises me that you would say this as you yourself provided information on 37 dogs that you produced or owned that were over one year of age at the time of the survey.

You sent this information directly to me.

I am so glad that at least the claim Barber has made, repeatedly, that I did not participate in this survery has now been proven false. Actually it shows that 10.5% of the surveyed dogs were submitted by me. At the time of the survery I was not affiliated with the ISSR, yet was contacted and asked to participate. I did so willingly as I was lead to believe that the information would be made public so that all breeders could make better breeding decissions. If I had known this would not be the case, and that there would be no open data to benefit anyone I would not have wasted my time. The above comments also show there was no consistency with who gathered the information. It was previously stated that ALL info was to be sent to the TCCP, yet I was told to send it elsewhere. I feel myself, and others, were mislead about the purpose and result of this survery.

As shown, I provided 10.5% of the surveyed dogs, and I know for fact there were others not affiliated with the ISSR that also provided information. Rather than openly sharing the factual data of this survery there has been an attempt to misuse information given. Rather than thanking people for contributing, information gathered was twisted in claims that all the health issues of the survery came from "Splinter's" dogs, or the really good one, our dogs aren't even Shilohs.

So if at least 10.5% and more likely a much higher percentage, of the dogs that submitted information are in the ISSR's words, non Shilohs, than even more reason to dispel this "survey" People were mislead to the purpose of the survery and it has been used as a propaganda tool.

While the ISSR may feel this survery of only 351 dogs, can't say Shilohs since it is their claim that a percentage of them are not Shilohs, is worth while, many challange that view point.

Also, since it is now clear that I provided info on 37 of the 351 dogs, I can personally state that there was no criteria to verify anything I wrote on the survery form. Again, with no raw data available this survery is hardly scientific to represent health issues of the Shiloh Shepherd.

Quote: You sent this information directly to me. I stated that all the surveys still exist, so how can that be construed as unwillingness to provide verification of the raw data used?

Stating that you have the raw data, while not making it ALL public for scrutinization to verify the statistics claimed can most definetely be construed as unwillingness.

quote: If you believe that he personally reviewed all of the surveys that were submitted

Bingo! Dr Padgett didn't do the survery, he used only summarized data given to him and crunched numbers.

Quote: the survey results were representative of problems facing the breed at the time the survey was done.Trillhill 13:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Exactely! Since you state that the survery results are only a representation of what you considered problems at the time of the survery, almost 6 years ago, more reason why it is not a reliable source today. The ISSR claims it has 4000 Shilohs registered to date. If those figures could be considered accurate, and not even considering all the other Shilohs registered in the other registries, than your outdated survery is only representative of 8% of the entire breed.

Further reasons that original research should not be accepted. Web sites consisting of Original Research can quite often have inconsistencies and unverifiable information to strictly provide a POV.

Here is a link to the ISSR/SSDCA web site. Even though it was just pubically made known that I did participate in the survery, this site claims I have not.

Also, a post to these talk pages made on 2/3/2006 by Tina barber claims: quote: Harley's dam was NOT born within the ISSR, although her sire *was* a nice dog

This chart taken directly as reference form the SSDCA/ISSR web site states Harely's dam, Spirit, out of Roxie, by Taz was not only registered by the ISSR, Barber claims co ownership on the litter. It also states I did not participate in the health survery :-)[1]

Breeder-----DOB----Sire-----------------Dam-------------------------Co-owner

Patti 1998-Aug SHENANDOAH'S THE TAZ OF ZION JNK'S FOXIE ROXIE LADY TINA BARBER

ShenandoahShilohs 17:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OBVIOUSLY ANY POSTS YOU DON'T LIKE, YOU JUST REMOVE??? http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShiloh_Shepherd_Dog&diff=38480254&oldid=38468892 MaShiloh 18:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As per the talk page history and the note left on your talk page, the post was removed because it attacked another editor. Please focus on the article and refrain from commenting on other editors. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 18:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Padgett's Health Survey's

If you take a look at this page, you might be surprised to discover that the BMDCA published their report in almost the same format that we did!!

http://www.bmd.org/health/surveyreport.html

This page explains HOW this survey works, and WHAT the results mean!

http://kryptiks-lair.tripod.com/id2.html

I would like to STRONGLY urge you to read this page!!!

It does not list dogs names ... just GUESSTIMATE % CARRIER FREQUENCY

For example ... there is a 32% possibility that the dog you are using/breeding to will produce UH .. this helps the breeder dig deeper in order to get more statistics regarding THAT disease within the lines that they have chosen. IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

http://www.beaconforhealth.org/Nsltr%20Aug%2001.pdf

Many breed clubs participated in these surveys .. the smaller ones have chosen NOT to publish the raw data publicly, but just have it available to the breeders, due to the political problems that many breed clubs have to deal with!

http://www.kerryblues.info/index.html?http%3A//www.kerryblues.info/HEALTH/2004SCOPE.HTML

http://www.nsdtrc-usa.org/h&g.htm

http://www.gsmdca.org/health/healthsurveysummary.pdf

http://www.briardsbriards.com/breeding_healthier_dogs.htm

PLEASE NOTE;

Although Dr. Padgett's hope for complete and open sharing of information is a tall order and perhaps somewhat idealistic, the primary point must not be lost-you must identify the problems before you can attempt to fix the problems. A first step for a breed to attempt to learn where problems lie is through health surveys. If it will help reporting, measures can be taken to be certain that these are completely anonymous. The Briard Club of America will send out a health survey in April 2000 to try to identify all of the potentially genetic diseases affecting Briards. This survey will be received and compiled by a third party group. No one owning a Briard will know the result of any individual survey (except their own, of course.) Hopefully, with this survey, if certain problems are found to be widespread, then perhaps a climate of openness and understanding can allow for sharing of information. In this way pedigrees can be analyzed and strides can be made to determine inheritance patterns, develop new tests (genetic of phenotypic) and hopefully decrease the occurrence of the diseases in the Briard. To meet these lofty goals those who own, breed, and love Briards can rise to the challenge.

More examples;

http://izebug.syr.edu/~gsbisco/cbhealth.html

http://www.chinook.org/health2.html

In conclusion, I would like to suggest that you read http://www.doginfomat.com/EXCHANGE_Summer2000.pdf

I will try to set some time aside to find & list ALL of the breed clubs that have participated in Dr. Padgett's survey, because I believe that this information is extremely important for ALL (honest) breeders to understand.

 Open registries?  Yes, that would be nice, but with the politics that seem to effect the clubs & "registries" within OUR world ... this is not likely going to happen until the Shiloh Shepherd gets FULL recognition, and has only ONLY parent club to represent everyone!!

In the meantime .. if your group gives a darn about this 'breed' why do you spend so much energy trying to bash me & the ISSR, instead of trying to start an OPEN disease registry (like AWSA did) for the dogs you are breeding???

I know that ONE person tried to do this some time ago .. and if anyone here wants to SEE this information, I would suggest that they join the ShilohZone!!! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShilohZone/ MaShiloh 15:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here lies the REAL problem

Shenandoah quoted While the ISSR may feel this survery of only 351 dogs, can't say Shilohs since it is their claim that a percentage of them are not Shilohs, is worth while, many challange that view point.

TINA BARBER REPLIED

Shenandoah quoted another editors post .. then said Bingo! Dr Padgett didn't do the survery, he used only summarized data given to him and crunched numbers.

TINA BARBER REPLIED THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID WITH ALL OF THE OTHER BREED CLUBS!!! MaShiloh 15:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then Shenandoah said Here is a link to the ISSR/SSDCA web site. Even though it was just pubically made known that I did participate in the survery, this site claims I have not.

TINA REPLIED

Only because YOU requested anonymity!

This followed with another attack on Tina Barber's post that was answered with

MaShiloh 15:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FOR FULL DETAILS ... PLEASE VISIT

No wonder people don't want to post on this talk page! Either their posts get all chopped up with edits .. THEY get attacked by the dissidents -- OR THEIR WORDS GET DELETED!!! MaShiloh 19:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please treat the other editors with respect and refrain from personal attacks and the over-use of Uppercase and grammatical symbols to communicate with other editors, as this style is easily interpreted as "yelling". There are many editors very interested in contributing to this article in a respectful manner and your cooperation is encouraged and would be appreciated. Thank you. |||Miles.D.

|||^{02-6-2006 19:58 (UTC)}

Comments on History section

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but I'm finally going to give my two cents about this article:

I think the history section is confusing. First, while it seems like a good idea to give the dates for all the clubs, it is cumbersome in an introductory article such as this. What seems to me to be the most important distinction is this: only one registry has always operated under the breed founder, and continues to do so. That other registries exist can be mentioned, as well as listing them and their various dates of inception, if need be... but this distinction cannot be left unsaid. It is verifiable fact, and need not be said in a negative way; in fact, the editors seem fine with sacrificing brevity to include qualifying statements such as 'as is common in many breeds' etc.

To lose sight of the fact that this breed is stilll in development and its breed founder still overseeing the ISSR is to lose sight with what the Shiloh Shepherd is, the history section of this article should be cleaned up and returned to the roots of this breed. Thank you! 19:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Laura L.

Thanks for the comments :) Its actually been suggested a number of times before that something about the dispute needs to be included, however, the sides have yet to be able to agree on how that should be worded. So far, the history section as it is has been quite a struggle to get agreement with. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 19:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion is just keep it simple, and state the facts clearly... at least the biggies like that one. The fact that the ISSR is the only registry that operates under the guidance of the breed founder is not in dispute by anyone. People who wish to look into this phenomenal breed-in-development have ample opportunity to peruse the websites of all registries, this article should serve as an introduction to Shilohs. 68.51.177.128 00:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Laura L.[reply]

I agree with Laura L. Good suggestions and very well said :)Filwj 06:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Sue[reply]

I agree totally. The history section of this article is a disgrace. Egos, arrogance and POV have run rampant for over 2 months now and it is time for a real history section to be written. These dogs deserve that and this article is about the dogs, right? Not any groups personal agenda.

Jareth, you have done such a wonderful job in the other sections. You kept them factual and NPOV. I would like to see you write the history section. You are the best choice of all editors here as you are unbiased and have nothing to gain/lose by what is written. SandraSS 13:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In all this messing around with the history, we've really shortchanged the breed history -- I'd like to go with the proposal to split the history into at least two sections, one for the breed history and the other for the club/registry history (this could be two sections as well) so that we can at least have a good representation of how the breed was developed while we figure out how to write the club/registries so that its not so choppy and acceptable to both sides. So, in that vein, I'm working on writing up the actual history of the breed itself and have this so far (I just realized I'm missing the Sampson/MAW line, I'll work on getting that in too):

Breed History

In 1974, Tina Barber began developing a unique line of German Shepherds at Shiloh Shepherd Kennels in New York State. Her goal was to preserve the type of dog she remembered from her childhood in Germany; dogs who are good family companions, exceptionally intelligent, mentally sound, big and beautiful - similar to Chuck Eisenmann's dogs from The Littlest Hobo. After years of breeding and training German Shepherds, she chose to start reviving the breed by using the Thuringer lines for intelligence and the mountain shepherd lines for size and soundness.

After years of selective breeding, Ms Barber seperated her foundation stock from the AKC in 1990. When it came time to choose the name for the new rare breed, the FIC pointed out that most people knew her lines by the kennel name, and thus Shiloh Shepherd was chosen.

Today four main lines are recognized, named for the bitches who were instrumental in developing the breed. Kari brought considerable intelligence and fluid movement, Ursa had a beautiful and sound body, Ria contributed the broad head and softer temperment and Sabrina added in the heavier bone structure and plush coats. Knowledge of these dominant lines along with their faults and virtues is paramount when breeding Shilohs; just as crossing these lines correctly can create sound, well formed Shilohs, crossing them incorrectly can result in hip, back or temperment problems.

Ms. Barber continues to actively participate in the development and welfare of the breed, acting as both the President of the SSDCA, Inc. and the Breed Warden for the ISSR.

Hmmmm, quite interesting, Jareth.152.163.100.138 21:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We'd like to take a bit to consider your ideas. Could you please provide the rest of your proposal for the history section now? That way, we can look at the whole draft to see how everything meshes. Thanks, S Scott 00:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)S Scott[reply]

Before anything is changed in the history section currently in the article, I'd also like to have an opportunity to read your entire history section proposal, so that we can ensure all information is included and that we have all editors' consensus to warrant a change to the content that is already there and to change the format as it currently stands. Thank you. |||Miles.D.

|||^{02-8-2006 00:18 (UTC)}

I have to agree. There have been how many "new" history article changes made? If there are to be any more changes I thought it was to be done with community concensus. I also think the history section, if changed again, should be all in one section, not piece by piece. Thank you ShenandoahShilohs 00:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have anything else and this part isn't even finished. I was hoping for some constructive criticism and fact checking as I go instead of getting heaps of problems cropping up after days of work. I haven't got a clue as to how to start on the club/registry history because as far as I've seen, noone can even agree on what that is, much less how it should be stated. -- I'm bugging a few outside people to see if they can help write something for that area. Honestly folks, I'm not dealing with the silliness anymore -- you can choose to work on the article or you can choose not to participate but you cannot choose to not work on the article and participate. Its being changed and proposals are made because frankly, the current version sucks. If you think this is a lot of changes, I doubt you've had much of a look around Wikipedia. Articles here don't stand still; they are never finished; someone can always improve or add something of value. And really, if I wasn't asking for input and looking for consensus, why would I have posted this at all? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 00:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The more I look at the history and the more I read it really seems like the breed history and club/registry history become entertwined around the turn of the century -- so maybe splitting things up won't work after all. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 01:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, really really rough draft and quick stab at the rest of the history so that anyone who's interested could work on it all at once:

Starting in 1990, Shilohs were registered through the FIC as a seperate breed. At this time, Ms. Barber formed The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA, Inc.) to ?. After the FIC showed some difficulty with standards verification, Ms. Barber and the SSDCA decided to open their own registry in 1991, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR). After some documentation issues became evident, The Complete Computer Place (TCCP) was contacted in 1992 to design a program to process registry data for the ISSR. They also maintain an ancestry database to assist in calculating health and temperment factors within this limited genepool. The SSDCA was dormant during part of 1997 to support the opening of a new breed club, The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC). When the ISSDC stopped working with the ISSR and opened their own registry, the ISSDCr, the SSDCA reactivated and has been maintained as the breed club for the ISSR. The ISSDC and its registry closed in 2001. The Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) was opened shortly after to assume its registry functions. The National Shiloh Breed Registry (NSBR) was established in 2001 with an emphasis on shared knowledge and giving more control over breeding to the individual breeder. The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR) was opened in 2002 with a focus on health requirements. The ISSDC was reorganized in 2004 as a unifying breed club for the SSBA, NSBR and TSSR registries.

And please, please, please don't start yelling at each other again, just talk about what you do or don't like about the article as it is, or my ideas on the rewrite or your ideas for a rewrite -- just as long as its the article. Thanks. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 01:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jareth, I know you want the history section to sing, so to speak. I applaud your high standards. Right now, I'm not sure how realistic that is, given the passionately-held views of editors. Even though the history section is choppy with dates, I'd prefer to leave it for now, rather than try to reach agreement on the most recently proposed changes.

I'd like to see if people agree with this part of the draft, which is where we left off last week:

"In 1991, The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA, Inc.) was formed. In 1997 the SSDCA became inactive. During this time, The International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC) was created. The SSDCA reopened in 1998. The ISSDC closed in 2001 and reopened in 2004.

"Shilohs were originally registered through the FIC until Ms.Barber opened the first Shiloh-only registry, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) in 1991.

"In 1998 the ISSDC opened their own registry, calling it the ISSDCr. In 2001, the ISSDC registry was closed. The Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA) was opened shortly after and assumed registry functions for the ISSDCr. The National Shiloh Breed Registry (NSBR) was established in 2001 and The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR) in 2002. When the ISSDC reorganized in 2004, it became the unifying parent club for the NSBR, TSSR, and SSBA."

Regards, S Scott 17:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)S Scott[reply]

Picture layout in article

There appears to be persistence by a certain editor in changing the picture layout in the article. I prefer the layout that Jareth originally had as can be seen below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog&oldid=38711739

Would you be able to change it back Jareth? SandraSS 14:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The photo of Harley was added to the article on January 26th by Jareth under "Colors". Following admin's request for a "smooth-coat" photo, Elf added that photo on January 27 to "Coats" and moved Harley to "History". On January 31st, TrillHill moved Harley down on the page by adding Luke and "cluttering" "History". On January 31st, Jareth moved Lakota from "Coats" to "Size" and Harley to "Coats". On February 1, we added one photo "puppies" to "Temperament". On February 1st, TrillHill moved Luke to "Colors" and added Gunsmoke to "History". On Februray 1st, Jareth moved Harley to "Colors" and moved Laz, Luke, and Puppies to the gallery, stating the was too cluttered with photos and these could be moved back up into the body of the article if/when it was expanded. On February 1st, Jareth changed captions for photos of Puppies, Laz, and Luke. On February 1st, Jareth expanded article and moved Laz to "Size". On February 2, Jareth added City Bricks Shadrack to "Temperament". On February 3, TrillHill added the SAR Redwood Pack to "Working Dogs" and Meg to "Movement and Gait". Since the article was now expanded and numerous new photos were being added, On February 3rd, we moved our photos, Puppies to "Variant Colors" and Harley to "Appearance". On February 5th M.Bush added photo of Warrior to "Coats" next to Lakota, cluttering section. On Februrary 6th, Jareth moved Warrior to "Gallery", commenting "don't pile". On February 8th, Jareth moved Lakota from "Coats" to "Colors", moved Harley from "Appearance" to "Coats", moved Shadrack from "Temperament" to "Health", moved Puppies from "Colors" to "Gallery" to then add photos of First Child w/Shiloh to "Temperament", then moved that again to "Working" next to "SAR Redwood Pack" then added a Second Small Child w/Dog to "Temperament".

I would agree there have been numerous edits and additions to the photos in the article by some editors. As fellow authors of this article, the 3 photos submitted by the ISSDC (through me) for placement in the article, however, have never involved the removal/displacement/editing of any of the 10 photos added by editors representing the SSDCA, nor have they been placed in such a way which clutters any section. On February 3rd, I had requested that the same courtesy be extended to our photos from other editors choosing to add/move photos. Obviously, this was not to be and some editors have continued to add/move photos at will.

Yesterday, it appeared that the smooth-coated dog (Lakota), who was originally added because of a request from an admin for a rep for "Coats", was not appropriate for "Colors", so he was moved back to "Coat". Since the Puppies photo shows a good representation of Shiloh "Colors" (the one photo showing the white Shiloh), it was moved there and the photo of Harley was moved from there to "Appearance", which had been expanded and allowed for this.

Again, no photos submitted by other editors were moved or removed or otherwise touched in any way. Believe it or not, there are other editors on this page who are well within their Wiki rights to contribute to the authorship/contents of this article (such as having a few photo contributions they have submitted also represented without constant editing) particularly when these contributions do nothing to take away from the contributions of other editors, do not violate Wiki policy, and which enhance the article as a whole. We are all equal authors for this article and I think edits made to other contributors actions should only be undertaken if they involve violations of Wiki policy or a consensus for change. Thank you. |||Miles.D.

|||^{02-8-2006 16:22 (UTC)}

It doesn't matter who moved what where at which time or who "owns" which picture (because NOONE owns the pictures or the article for that matter). There's no reason to continue to clutter up the article with pictures. There's no reason to force more and more pictures up in the top section and keep moving them around -- and that goes for everyone involved in doing it. I'm honestly starting to look forward to the possibility of an RfAR as a way to end this absurdity. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With no disrespect intended, can you clarify to whom this is being directed?

In review of the article page history, the majority of all additional pictures, and the majority of picture movement has been done by one editor. In the past 6 days there have been 4 new pictures added, and multiple re-arrangments made. I have to agree, the forcing of more and more new picures and the constant movement of them is cluttering the article. Miles D made one movement today with reference to getting pictures in better shape. Is it not allowed for editors to participate in the placement of pictures they have supplied when is doesn't involve removal or encroachement of other editors photos and they feel it betters the article? ShenandoahShilohs 17:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no reason to force more and more pictures up in the top section and keep moving them around -- and that goes for everyone involved in doing it.

Exactly my point. As an unbiased Wiki editor added the recent new pictures and placed them, and the existing pictures where she thought best for the article, I think that should be respected and left alone. For whatever reason, this was not acceptable and the picture layout was changed yet again. I still think that Jareth's placement of the pictures looks the best as can be seen in this version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog&oldid=38711739 SandraSS 17:18, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]