Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator)

dumbass comment

Please remove "dumbass" near the beginning of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.44.247 (talk) 00:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done Arzel (talk) 01:09, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Criticism page needed

Bill O'Reilly is one of the most controversial figures in the public eye, we all know this. There are sources everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE on the internet for his ill-behavior and frowned-upon beliefs and personality. You can literally type in his name on youtube and you will find hundreds of videos depicting his poor behavior, from losing his temper to insulting people who call his show, the list goes on. It boggles my mind that NONE of this has been addressed in the article let alone there is no dedicated article for it. --Radicalfaith360 (1/19/2010)

Read WP:POVFORK plz. Soxwon (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:POV plz. The user above has a valid problem: this page used to have an extensive sourced section on O'Reilly's (negative) public image. Then it was pushed out into a separate article (this one: [1]) by O'Reilly fans, then there were 7 (seven!) deletion attempts of the public image article (all but one of which ended with a "keep"), and last year a single admin simply removed that article without consensus. (He "merged" it here, but the content strangely didn't arrive...) If that isn't pushing of opinion (some would say "whitewash"), I don't know what is. -- Marcika (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the point, you do not correct a lack of criticism by simply creating a POV "Criticism" page or a POV "criticism section." If you feel that the material should be added back into the article, then by all means do so. However, do so in appropriate places rather than letting it all accumulate in one particular section of the article. Soxwon (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That would make for an extremely unorganized article, such as this one right now (honestly, look at this article, and a revision four or five years ago, and tell me which is more informative). Also, I've given up on getting into pointless edit wars with political zealots on Wikipedia sometime back in 2004, so I won't get involved here. -- Marcika (talk) 09:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

item only list 2 refuted points by Franken, I guess intelligent people know the truth, and dumb people wont be swayed but any facts anyway. gadfly46 23:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

A tale of two articles

The real irony here is that long ago, this article contained sufficient rich, well sourced criticisms. Given O'Reilly is a very controversial figure, the volume of sourced criticism was great; a cadre of editors who seemingly think very highly of Mr. O'Reilly began complaining that the criticism was overshadowing the rest of the article. The majority of the criticisms and other negative information was moved to a secondary article in following with WP:SIZE and the prescribed remediation from the MoS. After a while, the O'Reilly fans began nominating the criticism / controversy article for deletion by attempting to label it a POV fork (ignoring the fact that it was a valid split). The majority of "delete" respondents at AFD cited their disdain for any article containing Controversies of... in the title, not citing any actual deficiencies with the content itself -- editors at AFD noted that most of the individual incidents were so richly sourced that they could stand as individual articles. After 5 or 6 unsuccessful attempts, one AFD finally succeeded. The closing admin graciously allowed the article to sit for several weeks during which discussions were ongoing as to which content to include in the main article. Of course, at that point the cadre asserted WP:SIZE and WP:UNDUE as constraints to keep the majority of any negative content out of the main article (and apparently have been doing so ever since), to the point that the article no longer gives an accurate representation of Mr. O'Reilly or his significance. What was once enough content to fill another entire article -- all of it well sourced, vetted, and presented -- has been slimmed down to a few sentences that contain almost no information. The article, as it stands now, is intellectually dishonest -- like O'Reilly or hate him, I don't think any academically honest person can state that this Wikipedia article accurately reflects O'Reilly and his relevance to the world. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:31, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I added some reasoning below in the newer thread about criticism & controversy. PrBeacon (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Preposterous that this is missing a criticism section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.8.149 (talk) 07:18, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Controversy, criticism, parody section

The listing of, by my count eighteen "public figures" who have purportedly had disputes with O'Reilly is rather silly and unencyclopedic and I doubt that all of these particular disputes are properly sourced anyway. Something similar could be said about about any of the controversialists who now inhabit the cable news channels. I think it would be better to basically say, that O'Reilly has had numerous flaps with others in the public eye while keeping whatever WP:RS's are now in place.Badmintonhist (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Nicely done.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

^^Agreed. Ink Falls 19:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

lead should mention more about why he is controversial

This section needs to be better represented in the introduction, per WP:lead. Only the final sentence there hints at it: "Over the years, O'Reilly's print and broadcast work has drawn both praise and criticism." By comparison, Glenn Beck's article has the following adjectives to describe him in its lead section: "polarizing, provocative, controversy and criticism, notorious for conspiracy theories and incendiary rhetoric." PrBeacon (talk) 21:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

A couple of points. One, Beck and O'Reilly are quite different both in style and in ideas. Two, the words that you quote come in the context of a lead section that summarizes the opinions of both Beck's detractors and his supporters (for whom he is a "conservative champion" and a defender of "traditional American values from secular progressivism"). Basically, that's the Beck bio's equivalent of saying that O'Reilly's commentary has drawn both praise and criticism. While I admit that the Beck lead is more specific and certainly more flamboyant, I think it is probably less encyclopedic. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Changing what I said, thought you were quoting the section. Nvm. I'll see to changing that lead section to be more like this. Anyways, it's definitely not a model for O'reilly's page. Ink Falls 23:50, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Infobox template

I notice that the infobox template for O'Reilly is "person," while the infobox templates for Keith Olberman and Rachel Maddow are "journalist." O'Reilly, for one, would seem to have a more legitimate background as a journalist than Maddow. In fact, the cable TV commentators on MSNBC generally have the "journalist" infobox while those on FNC do not (Ed Schultz is one exception). One option could be to create an infobox for "political commentator", but in the meantime, might this be a form of bias? RadioBroadcast (talk) 02:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Depends. Likely not. You would have to explore what the differences are in the items they cover, as your starting point. Nobody reading the article sees the "name" of the template, other than those who open it for editing.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

No, actually, the whole point of different templates is to provide a visual reference for the article. "Journalist" generates a yellow bar for the infobox title background. RadioBroadcast (talk) 12:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Main photo is at a bad angle

I personally dislike Bill, but I feel that the photo of him in this article:

• is taken at a sufficiently indirect angle as to make recognizing him from the photo difficult
• has his eyes pointing nearly orthogonal to the camera
• is particularly unflattering (due to aforementioned issues, as well as his expression at the moment of capture)
• is non-iconic. These photos have a more iconic feel: [2] and [3]

Please note I'm not suggesting we actually use one of the linked photos, but it is clear that photos taken like that - straight on, under proper lighting, no grimace, are more recognizable and better convey his visual presence (important for a TV personality).

Once again, I totally hate the guy, but... is there a reason someone can't find a suitable image? - JustinWick (talk) 17:03, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

You are not obligated to reveal that you "totally hate the guy," however, if that's the way you feel about him, imagine how the folks who decided to use that the photo in there now felt about him! Badmintonhist (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Heh, just didn't want to sound like a fanboy - those types of requests are often ignored. - JustinWick (talk) 05:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I have previously brought up that this was a bad image but when I brought in a new image it was removed for being copyrighted. As it stands this image(which is a derivative of a larger image) is all we have. If you can find a free license image to upload to wikicommons and then bring that over to here it would be much appreciated. Thank you. Ink Falls 19:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Ink Falls described the issue quite well, but I want to try to make it even clearer. WP policy is that we can't use "non-free" photos--meaning photos that are not either in the public domain or licensed to be freely distributed--to identify living people. (The consensus interpretation of WP:NFCC, criterion 1, is that a "free equivalent" could be obtained for any living person because they can still be photographed.) Especially in this case, where a free photo of O'Reilly exists in the article, we're simply not allowed to use a non-free one. If a better free photo exists, we could certainly use it instead. Croctotheface (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Added NPOV Tag, Due to Overall Bias in Article and Failure to Put all Controversy in the "Controversy" Section

Rather than having a standard Wikipedia "Controversy" Section', citations critical of O'Reilly are woven throughout the entire article, which is manipulative and unbalanced.

People who are critical of O'Reilly should be aware that manipulative writing reflects more on the writer than it does on the subject. Readers recognize it very quickly.

It's also unethical to write like that. For this reason, Wikipedia calls for putting all incidents of controversy together, under one "Controversy" section.

Sean7phil (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I see you did open a discussion. Please disregard my edit summary. As for the criticisms "woven throughout" the article, it's actually better than having a Controversy section. That kind of section can never be balanced and usually serves as a troll magnet. †TE†Talk 18:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the tag on the grounds that your sole rationale in favor of it completely misstates WP policy. In fact, "weaving criticism throughout the entire article" is explicitly preferred to a dedicated section. Croctotheface (talk) 20:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Uh, Sean7phil, merging Controversy sections into the main text is the preferred style and in no way indicates a POV problem. If there are other POV problems in your view, we are happy to hear them. Ashmoo (talk) 17:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Changes to the lead

We had some bold changes there, which I reverted per WP:BRD. Next, the discussion. First, the "widely considered conservative" line was a compromise that was hashed out through arduous discussion. It has the support of consensus, and I don't think a weaker statement ("some") would have the support of consensus. It may be OK to spell out some of his "non-conservative" positions, but I don't think I'd put them in the lead. I'd leave out the death penalty thing, too--we're not explaining the instances where he is conservative, after all. Also, a description of the ins and outs of his position on organized labor isn't really appropriate for the article lead. It's possible that it would be appropriate for elsewhere in the article. The other sentences that were added either have inadequate sourcing or misstate their sources. An interview with Brit Hume is inadequate to source a statement like that, and he didn't say anything like that in the interview anyway. We can probably work his description of himself into the "traditionalist" sentence. Croctotheface (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the new edits elaborated a little too much on positions he has for the lead, but I prefer the statement: "O'Reilly is considered by some to be a conservative commentator although others view him as an outspoken Centrist.".

I guess it's time to take a new poll.

Support change to the above statement. Ink Falls 20:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You realize that we don't do things by voting, right? I think what you want to do is reopen the discussion. In the spirit of that, what support do you have for the notion that he is not widely considered conservative? "Some" is very weak--it could mean one or two people. A large number of people consider O'Reilly a conservative. Croctotheface (talk) 02:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No, a "new poll" is not needed. The burden is on you to show that consensus has changed. In holding with longstanding Wikipedia guidelines, deference is given to his self-chosen designator "traditionalist", however there is no question that the majority of the sources (and people writ large) consider him to be "conservative" -- sourcing is sufficiently strong to overcome the "some" / "many" distinction. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:08, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with Blaxthos on this one, sources clearly indicated conservative label. Soxwon (talk) 05:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

We do things by consensus and compromise. Consensus is seen through voting, and here is my compromise: "O'Reilly is largely considered to be a conservative commentator although others view him as an outspoken Centrist.". That is a more fair description. Ink Falls 02:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

You realize that neither of those sources call him a centrist, right? Croctotheface (talk) 04:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Are we just making things up now? Did you really just assert that Country Music Television is a solid source for the intro, right next to the Wall Street Journal, even when the source doesn't contain the language you advocate? Also, why do you continue to assert that "consensus is seen through voting" when it clearly is not? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

If everyone votes yes, then there is a consensus. You realize that one of the current sources doesn't say anything about O'reilly's political position and the other only just calls him "the conservative commentator" once. That alone is hardly evidencethat he is "widely considered" conservative. Unless you can find proof otherwise, I recommend changing it to some consider him conservative. Ink Falls 19:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea is that we reach consensus through discussion, not brute force voting. But problems with your conception of voting vs. consensus aside, so far nobody else has "voted yes," let alone "everyone." Otherwise, you seem to want us to cite 75 different sources that call him conservative, but over-citation of contentious material does not improve the encyclopedia. Croctotheface (talk) 19:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Inkfalls, your position is unsupported by policy, sources, or consensus. If you seek "evidencethat[sic] he is 'widely considered' conservative", I have a few recommendations:

1. Take the personal initiative to do an evaluation of the number of reliable sources that consider him conservative, versus those that consider him "centrist".
2. Do a raw comparison of "bill+o'reilly"+conservative "conservative" ghits (565,000) versus ""bill+o'reilly"+centrist ghits" (43,600). Call it a 13:1 ratio. Postscript: it appears the majority of the "centrist" ghits are actually sources blasting the "O'Reilly is centrist" meme as invalid on its face.
3. Consider the responses of your fellow editors, who have shown no support for your position.

In no case should you continue to bring up points that have been clearly settled, or to continue to ask for "proof" when consensus is against you. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Nolan getting fired material

I removed some non notable material about some guy getting fired. Can this be discussed here and consensus reach first before readding? TIA --Threeafterthree (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Barry Nolan

Could someone explain how O'Reilly getting a fellow journalist fired is not worth mentioning here? The Columbia Journalism Review devoted an entire article to the incident. Rd232 ^talk 20:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Because its a non story. Did some taking heads mention this or just the CJR? It looks like Nolan got himself fired. Anyways, --Threeafterthree (talk) 20:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Please don't minimise or trivialise this. The gory details are in Barry Nolan, and it is abundantly clear that O'Reilly got Nolan fired by threatening Fox's business relationship with Comcast. He did so because Nolan had embarrassed him at that Emmy awards dinner, with the flier of quotes from his shows (and the harassment lawsuit), which led to some audience boos for O'Reilly. Columbia Journalism Review devoted an entire article to this. How is it not notable? Does O'Reilly make a habit of getting critical journalists fired (and hence this one is not worth noting)?? Some other media mentions Patriot-Ledger [4] Boston Herald [5] Philadelphia Inquirer [6] UPI [7] ABC News [8] FAIR [9] Harper's [10] There's also plenty of blog coverage, as Google easily demonstrates. And coverage of this is blooming because the CJR article is recent. Rd232 ^talk 21:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

"gory details" lol. Nolan got himself fired. End of story. It seems like it is covered in his bio where this non story belongs. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Has nothing seemingly to do with O'reilly the person. It would make more since to include it in his shows article. As for Nolan, I've never even heard of him.(unless by some chance he is the inventor of the Nolan chart)Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether you've heard of Nolan (neither had I). The point is he was a fellow journalist who O'Reilly got fired by threatening the business relationship Nolan's employer had with O'Reilly's.

After the dinner, O'Reilly wrote to Comcast's CEO mentioning the mutual business interests between Comcast and Fox, and saying "...it was puzzling to see a Comcast employee, Barry Nolan, use Comcast corporate assets to attack me and FNC."[4] He said that Nolan had attended the Emmy Awards "in conjunction with Comcast," and declared it "a disturbing situation."[4] This led to "memos ... flying from one jittery Comcast executive to another".[4] Nolan subsequently sued Comcast for wrongful termination, in a suit which remains outstanding.[4] In response to a question raised as part of that suit, Comcast wrote that "… Mr. Nolan’s protest at the NATAS Award Ceremony and of William O’Reilly as the recipient of the Governor’s Award jeopardized and harmed the business and economic interests of Comcast in connection with its contract with Fox News Channel, and its contract negotiations with Fox News that were ongoing at the time."[4]

(from Barry Nolan). Now tell me again how this is "nothing to do with O'Reilly the person" and "Nolan got himself fired, end of story". Fact: the Columbia Journalism Review article is titled "The O’Reilly Factor: How the Fox host used raw corporate power to crush a critic." Seeing as Wikipedia doesn't care what Wikipedians think, but what reliable sources say, please address the verifiable facts. Rd232 ^talk 22:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Facts? Thats a good one. Just because you keep saying O'Reilly got Nolan fired doesn't make it true or what the source said. The source even admitted that it couldn't prove Nolan was fired because of BO's letter. Also you keep using your POV "threatening". I guess it's a good thing that ol Billo is smater than you and didn't directly threaten anybody. Anyways, keep this "material" at the Nolan article where it belongs. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I love it when editors start talking about what's true. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Snide comments aside, I said it doesn't make it true by repeating a questionable statement, not about the "truth" being inserted into this article...--Threeafterthree (talk) 23:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow, you're really missing the point. The concept of what is "true" has no relevance to this (or any) Wikipedia content discussion. Full stop; read again. The concept of what is "true" has no relevance to this (or any) Wikipedia content discussion. If you don't understand that, then you shouldn't be participating. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you really that brain dead? I said that repeating a statement over and over and over does not make it "accurate" or "factual" or "whatever". Is that clear enough? --Threeafterthree (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

(You know, I've never interacted with you before, and so far you have been on the rude side of abrasive, as well as given a vague impression of working for O'Reilly's PR dept. Anyway...) The CJR article (as its title makes abundantly clear) argues that O'Reilly's letter, whilst "a carefully worded, lawyerly letter" was clearly intended to be read as a threat, and as the later Comcast quote makes clear, was so read. The article goes to some effort to explain the weight and gravity of the implied threat. You are correct of course to say that O'Reilly was not foolish enough to say something as clumsy as "fire the fucker or we'll ditch you"; that doesn't alter either the sequence of events or the CJR's interpretation thereof. Rd232 ^talk 23:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

rude side of abrasive, i've been accused of alot worse, so no offense :)..seriously, did BO's letter/viledthreat/listenhereguys/whateveryouwanttocallit get Nolan fired? Well it sure didn't help the guy out, but to flat out say as FACT that it DID get him canned is not supported by RSs. The CJR article is an opinion piece about the events, timing, emails, ect, ect. I would actually have more sympathy for Nolan if he had picketed outside the event or the like. To be an invited guest and then dump some "material" on the guest tables and run doesn't impress me, and most folks would have their job in jeopardy if they had done the same after being warned to "tone it down". Anyways, I can assure you that Iam not on BOs PR team :). Also, being a past NYCer, I wouldn't have sent a lawyerly letter but would have kicked this guys azz right then and there. So much for PR :)...--Threeafterthree (talk) 23:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's not get distracted by this back-and-forth about whether it's "abundantly clear" that O'Reilly got Nolan fired or that "Nolan got himself fired". We're not here to adjudicate a hypothetical Nolan v. O'Reilly lawsuit, or to decide whether we're impressed by Nolan's conduct. The point about this incident is that it differs from the many cases in which someone has disagreed with O'Reilly and O'Reilly has fired back at his critic. It's unusual enough that O'Reilly communicated with the critic's employer, and still more notable that O'Reilly's letter mentioned the business relationships between the two corporations. Add to that the fact that Nolan was fired, and the whole incident merits inclusion.

On the other hand, to call the letter "threatening" is, as Rd232 admits, an interpretation. Granted, it's an interpretation by CJR, a well-respected source on journalistic matters, but still an interpretation rather than an objective fact. I would replace "threatening the mutual business interests" with "referring to the mutual business interests". It would be legitimate, and consistent with WP:NPOV, for us to report CJR's opinion without adopting it, but that would be getting into more detail than the incident deserves. Linking to the CJR article is sufficient. JamesMLane t c 23:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I can agree with that. "Threatening" isn't in the current description at Nolan, or in the blockquote above; I used it in my comment but not in the text, where the word is "mentioning". (Clarification: "threatening" was in the text originally, but threeafterthree changed it, and I'm OK with that.) Rd232 ^talk 00:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

To say he was fired due to Bill's letter is also not supported by the citations. Just keep this in the Nolan bio since it primarily involves him and as pointed out, there was no legal action, ect invovling O'Reilly. If more develops, maybe revisit. --Threeafterthree (talk) 12:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Pretty clear what happened. Nolan did something stupid. BOR wrote a letter complaining about it. Nolan got fired for doing something stupid. Others now blame BOR for writing a letter that exposed the stupid thing that got Nolan fired. Arzel (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Arzel, I have no doubt that it's pretty clear to you what happened. The difference is that CJR is a reliable source about events in the journalism field, and a pseudonymous Wikipedia editor isn't. Anyway, even on your view, Nolan would not have been fired but for the O'Reilly letter, so the phrase "as a result" is fully supported by the citations. (Also I note that no one has produced any source, of any degree of reliability, contending that Nolan would have been fired even without O'Reilly's intervention.)

Nevertheless, in an attempt at compromise, I will remove the well-supported statement that ties the firing specifically to O'Reilly's action, and instead say merely that Nolan was fired as a result of the sequence of events. That leaves it up to the reader to decide the relative importance of each thing that happened, along with the assessment of moral culpability (was Nolan being stupid, was O'Reilly improperly intimidating Comcast, or maybe even both). JamesMLane t c 18:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Its still undue weight/not that notable enough for this bio. Please feel free to go off on Nolan's bio since this mainly involves him. Also, see Jimbo Wales talk page where he comments about editors like yourself who let their personal beliefs/opinions override NPOV. --Threeafterthree (talk) 19:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)ps no one has produced any source, of any degree of reliability, contending that Nolan would have been fired even without O'Reilly's intervention, when did you stop beating your wife?, right? Also Nolan would not have been fired but for the O'Reilly letter, citation for that? Didn't think so, since its like the same thing you asked for, proving a negative. Anyways, all of this is non issue since this material is undue weight in overall scope of bio, except to people with an agenda to push. --Threeafterthree (talk) 19:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This part is truly amusing: "Also, see Jimbo Wales talk page where he comments about editors like yourself who let their personal beliefs/opinions override NPOV." Right, you yourself are pure as the driven snow, all edits you make are strictly for the purpose of improving the encyclopedia, anyone who disagrees with you is letting personal opinions override NPOV, and Jimbo himself said so. Believe all that if it makes you happy. The fact is that many of the NPOV disputes on Wikipedia revolve around questions of importance. O'Reilly's conduct toward Nolan is an example. The passage you deleted is reasonably NPOV, although somewhat tilted O'Reilly's way by obscuring facts embarrassing to him, so the issue is whether the brouhaha triggered by his letter to Nolan's employer is significant enough to be included at all.

You and Arzel had no interest in continuing the discussion of that question for the past several days. As long as you were getting your way, you couldn't be bothered to address the latest comments or my proposed rewording. I conclude that there's not much room for productive discussion here and we'll have to take this to RfC, because otherwise you and Arzel will just keep deleting the information and repeating your previous points on the talk page.

For the RfC, I suggest that we present participants with three alternatives:

1. A full discussion of the incident, including the CJR conclusion that O'Reilly did indeed get Nolan fired;
2. The compromise language that I put in place with this edit; and
3. Your preferred alternative of omitting all mention of the matter in this article.

There would also be a statement in support of each position. Does that seem like a good approach? JamesMLane t c 21:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

obscuring facts embarrassing to him and those "facts" would be what exactly? Also, the issue is whether the brouhaha triggered by his letter to Nolan's employer is significant, ah, no, the brouhaha was started by Nolan's actions. Do you mean was O'reilly's letter in response to Nolan's actions significant enough to warrant inclusion? Also, your "compromise" includes mention that the sequence of events got Nolan fired, which is still OR/synthesis and unsourced. Anyways, I always welcome more input, so RFC away if you want or maybe the BLP board?. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

See the BLP board. --Threeafterthree (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent):I noticed this on the BLPN, and thought I'd come take a look. I'd like to offer a 4th possibility, but first let me lay a little groundwork. First, let me say that Rd232 is very correct to refer to the fact that truth is absolutely irrelevant here (WP:V couldn't really be more clear on this). I have no idea if O'Reilly got Nolan fired. I have a guess, but my guess isn't really relevant, either. What is relevant is whether or not we can verify that someone believes this, which we can. Second, however, is that ThreeafterThree makes a good point that the real thing we need to decide is how much weight to give this issue. From the perspective of O'Reilly's career, this is but one small thing he did in the midst of building/protecting his own reputation and/or potentially attacking the reputation of others. Nonetheless, it does seem to be a small but relevant part of the story of that award, and of O'Reilly's overall perception within the field. So, I'd like to propose a third option, which you might call 2.5, as it includes the info but cuts it down even further from version 2. So try this on for size:

In protest Comcast's Barry Nolan, attending the dinner, distributed a self-prepared flier with quotations from O'Reilly's shows, and with quotations from a sexual harassment lawsuit against O'Reilly. After the dinner, O'Reilly wrote to Comcast about critical of Nolan's behavior; some sources, such as the Columbia Journalism Review, have said that O'Reilly's letter and its reference to the business interests between Comcast and Fox may have had a direct impact on the subsequent decision of Comcast to fire Barry Nolan.

Does this (compromise?) version seem any more acceptable to the involved parties? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

So, you're not accusing other editors of letting their personal beliefs/opinions override NPOV, but instead you're making a constructive suggestion of specific language? What a concept. OK, as to the details, something seems to have gotten a bit garbled with the phrase "about critical of Nolan's behavior"; it needs rewording. More substantively, your language reports the contents of the O'Reilly letter but the CJR assessment is interpolated within that report. I suggest rearranging to keep all reporting of the letter together. How about:

In protest, Comcast's Barry Nolan, attending the dinner, distributed a self-prepared flier with quotations from O'Reilly's shows, and with quotations from a sexual harassment lawsuit against O'Reilly. After the dinner, O'Reilly wrote to Comcast, criticizing Nolan's behavior and referring to the business interests between Comcast and Fox; some sources, such as the Columbia Journalism Review, have said that O'Reilly's letter may have had a direct impact on the subsequent decision of Comcast to fire Nolan.

With these changes, I could live with this version. Thanks for the suggestion. JamesMLane t c 05:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Uh, yes, on the "about/critical part." That slipped past my proofreading; I imagine I was considering both phrases and forgot to take out the one I didn't like. Your revision seems fine by me, basically moving the part about "business interests" from one phrase to the other. Interested to hear what other editors think. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Support, except I think we're a little heavy with the commas in the first and second sentences. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 11:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Both of the last two short proposed texts reduce the O'Reilly involvement to mere CJR opinion. The Comcast letter (cf Barry Nolan) makes it quite clear why they acted: they believed their business interests threatened. So at least add "..., particularly as Comcast later stated that they had fired Nolan for jeopardising its business interests in relation to negotiations with Fox News." Rd232 ^talk 11:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

After reading the CJR article more closely lets go over the events. Nolan was upset that BOR was getting an award. He tried to get the board to take back the award, he wrote at least one article complaining about BOR getting the award, he told others that he didn't think BOR deserved the award, he also tried to contact KO about coming to the ceremony (as an act of protest one would assume). Clearly, Nolan was goind beyond the normal journalistic methods with regards to BOR. He was told by several not to disrupt the awards, but he attempted to do so anyway. Clearly Nolan did just about everything he could to get himself fired. Almost two years after the event a sympathetic ear at CJR wrote an article to try and bash BOR for getting him fired, but even that article can't ignore the many facts that show Nolan is wholly responsible for his own firing. So, how is this relevant to BOR? One could easily conclude even from the CJR article that Nolan would have been fired even if BOR had said nothing. Nolan got what he deserved and has noone to blame but himself. That someone at the CJR is sympathetic to him isn't notable in the least. They don't have any proof of anything, only assumptions, rumors, gossip, and therefore not suitable for a WP:BLP. Arzel (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

You're entitled to your opinion, but that misrepresents what the CJR article says. In particular, it's quite clear that Nolan didn't disrupt the event itself, beyond quietly handing out some flyers. Equally, it's clear from Comcast's later letter that it was specifically their business relationship with Fox which was the issue, not Nolan's behaviour at the event - and their business relationship with Fox was only put into question by O'Reilly's letter. Beyond that, you appear to assume that it is acceptable for an employer to fire an employee for expressing an opinion; somehow, I find it hard to imagine O'Reilly supporters taking the same view had the tables been turned. Rd232 ^talk 22:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

RD232, you are also interjecting your opinion into this. and their business relationship with Fox was only put into question by O'Reilly's letter is your unsourced opinion unless you work for Comcast or can provide reliable sources to that effect. The CJR makes it very clear by admitting that they can't "prove" anything, which probably wasn't added to the article by accident. --Threeafterthree (talk) 23:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

really?

Other documents, however, filed in connection with Nolan’s lawsuit strongly suggest that O’Reilly’s letter to Roberts was a key factor in his firing. Once Comcast was in receipt of the O’Reilly letter, e-mails, talking points, and memos went flying from one jittery Comcast executive to another. Should they call O’Reilly? Who should call? Should they send a letter? Who should draft it? Who should sign it? And don’t forget to CC Roger Ailes. Roberts himself was very much in the loop, but waited until May 22—two days after Nolan’s firing—to send O’Reilly an apology letter of his own. (Except for Nolan, none of the other parties would agree to talk for this story. Comcast issued the following statement: “As a matter of policy we do not comment on litigation or on other legal matters, but stand by our actions and intend to defend this lawsuit vigorously.”)

In December 2009 Comcast executive vice president David L. Cohen insisted to Matea Gold, a Los Angeles Times reporter, that Nolan wasn’t fired for speaking his mind, and affirmed the importance of journalistic independence. “Professional journalists need to have the right to express their opinions without fear of correction or retribution from a corporate parent,” he said.

Perhaps he should have added—except when it involves the corporation’s business interests. Documents, filed with the court, reveal that Comcast and Fox were involved in “ongoing” contract talks at the time, with Comcast fearing Nolan’s protest “jeopardized and harmed” its business dealings with Fox. In response to a question posed by Nolan’s attorneys in his lawsuit, Comcast’s written response, dated Aug. 5, 2009, states:

… Mr. Nolan’s protest at the NATAS Award Ceremony and of William O’Reilly as the recipient of the Governor’s Award jeopardized and harmed the business and economic interests of Comcast in connection with its contract with Fox News Channel, and its contract negotiations with Fox News that were ongoing at the time.

From [11]. I don't see how you can read that without concluding that the CJR is saying that it was O'Reilly's letter which made the business relationship an issue. Especially in conjunction with "On May 12, 2008—two days after the Emmys—O’Reilly went on the offensive against what he called Nolan’s “outrageous behavior” with a carefully worded, lawyerly letter to Brian Roberts, the chairman and CEO of Comcast, which distributes Fox News and entertainment programming, to its subscribers. The letter was written on Fox News stationery and was copied to Fox News CEO Roger Ailes. Pointedly, O’Reilly began by noting their mutual business interests. “We at The O’Reilly Factor have always considered Comcast to be an excellent business partner and I believe the same holds true for the entire Fox News Channel. Therefore, it was puzzling to see a Comcast employee, Barry Nolan, use Comcast corporate assets to attack me and FNC.” Telling the Comcast CEO that Nolan had attended the Emmy Awards “in conjunction with Comcast,” O’Reilly apologized for bothering him but let him know he considered this “a disturbing situation.”" Rd232 ^talk 23:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I have to say that I think both sides are off again. Arzel, it's flat out wrong to call this " only assumptions, rumors, gossip...." As far as I can tell, CJR is a legitimate news sources, and meets all of the qualifications for a reliable source. This means that even if it is "merely" their opinion, we are allowed (assuming this meets WP:DUE) to include their opinion in this article. Excluding them because you think they draw bad conclusions is no different than someone in another article excluding Fox as a hyperpartisan source; consensus discussions in other places have shown that unless a source as a whole is clearly and definitively hyperpartisan, we can't exclude it as a source of opinion/analysis. Rd232, it is not correct to say that " it's clear from Comcast's later letter that..." followed by anything, because that's an interpretation of a primary source. We need to stick only to what CJR (and/or other reliable, secondary sources) say. Threeafterthree is very correct to note that neither us nor even CJR can prove anything, only that they strongly believe something to be the case. My "plain reading" of the CJR article is that it is very clear that they want to imply that it's O'Reilly's fault that Nolan got fired, but, at the same time, they very carefully do not say that with certainty, because they do not believe they have the proof to do so. This is why we still have to report the issue (if we report it) as CJR's opinion.

So let me clarify, again. As an outsider, I only see one issue here: is this event important enough to O'Reilly's life to be worth including, and does CJR's opinion have sufficient weight to meet the burden imposed by WP:DUE? My feeling was that it was notable enough to be worth two sentences next to the description of the award, since it's not like that's a very big portion of the article. It "fills out" the story of the award ceremony, it shows O'Reilly's importance in a corporate/economic sense, and it is connected to a lawsuit (although not one O'Reilly is directly a party of). But I can see why that position is debatable. Could I get a succinct, clear explanation of why some think this is UNDUE? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

How can you say it isn't assumptions, rumor, and gossip? The CJR states itself that.

O’Reilly’s letter and Nolan’s suspension letter went out on the same day—May 12—but because no telephone logs are among the court documents, it’s not possible to draw absolute conclusions about the connection between the two.

There you have it, that is the strongest link that Terry Ann Knopf makes. She claims a bunch of other stuff, but there is no evidence to back up any of her claims other than the word of Nolan. Nothing. That Nolan wasn't disruptive is his opinion, he clearly was trying to make a point. If Nolan had been fired for asking the board to recind the award, or for writing his comments in the Boston Herald gossip coloum Inside Track then you might have something. His own supervisor told him directly not to make a scene.

Five days before the awards, Eileen Dolente, Nolan’s supervisor, traveled from Comcast’s Philadelphia headquarters to Boston and warned Nolan not to make a scene.

But he did anyway. If Knopf is the best light that he can get for his point of view, then he should probably have kept his mouth shut as well, because the CJR article isn't doing him any favors. Arzel (talk) 01:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand...I feel I'm explaining something wrong, because you're not addressing my question. The author in the CJR is expressing an opinion. That opinion is based on an examination of evidence which we don't have access to (court filings, to be specific). The drew the conclusion, not provable, but that, in their opinion, O'Reilly's letter was in part or significantly responsible for the filings. It states explicitly, just after the part you quoted, "other documents, however, filed in connection with Nolan’s lawsuit strongly suggest that O’Reilly’s letter to Roberts was a key factor in his firing." This is not a rumor or gossip (in the sense that it's unfounded information) and it's not an assumption (any more than any other interpretation of court documents by a non-judge is an assuption)--it's the CJR author's interpretation of primary documents. It's an analysis; it's a news report. So, again, the only question is, does the CJR's opinion have DUE weight to be included? Qwyrxian (talk) 02:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The intial premise is that BOR got Nolan fired, and the CJR article was being used as a source for this. However, the CJR article does not make this statement. Nolan, through the CJR article claims that he was fired because of BOR, however there is no evidence to back up this claim as of now. Nolan sued Comcast, but that suit has not been resolved. To include the claim is a BLP violation because it is nothing more than an unproved allegation at this time. Not only do we not have the court filings, Knopf doesn't either. That Knopf's opinion is that BOR's actions caused Nolan to get fired are not notable. If Nolan were suing BOR then you could at least might be able to say that this is a notable event that BOR is involved in, but that is not the case either. If this deserves mention it is on Nolan's article and/or Comcast's article because they are the two parties involved in the suit. Just imagine how full of (more) crap wp would be if every time someone blamed someone else for something that it would be included in their article. The most important question to ask is if this is notable with respect to BOR, and I submit that it is not, certainly in relative weight to everything else in BOR's life. Arzel (talk) 04:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

While Arzel isn't phrasing it exactly the way I would, I think I'm beginning to feel we may in fact hold the same view. I agree it would be a BLP violation to include the statement as fact, since it is an unfounded accusation. What I was wondering was whether or Knopf's view, in and of itself, was sufficient to include the article. It is very common in articles to have a noted authority (individual or organization) to provide non-factual commentary (opinions) about the subject of a BLP (or other article subject). As an example of where this happens, although it may have gone too far, is all of the criticism of Helen Thomas on her page. So we can include Knopf's theory if either Knopf himself or the CJR are reliable authorities on the subject; alternatively, if the claim was repeated across multiple sources, we could include Knopf's statement as one of many.

Looking into the source further, I don't see any reason to credit Knopf or the CJR as being particularly insightful in this matter. Knopf is "just another journalist", and the CJR is a relatively small publication, even in the field, as far as I can tell. So, after researching, I don't think Knopf's conclusion hold any spectacular amount of weight. Then I checked across other news sites. Almost without exception, the only repetitions of this claim that I could find where either copies or near copies of the Knopf piece itself. So this claim does not appear to have a lot of wide currency in the reliable sources.

So, as such, I'm currently also leaning toward keeping it out of the article. I could be persuaded otherwise, but we need something to show that the hesitant conclusions of one journalist/newspaper have enough weight on the overall story. But I noticed something as I was reading through the rest of the article, which I'll mention in a new section. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Where's the Criticism?

For a figure as polarizing as Bill O'Reilly, scanning through the whole article leaves a nearly strictly positive feeling about his work. Other than the criticism paragraph about the 2007 Indiana University study, there's not a lot in here about notable other figures who have said negative things about O'Reilly. That's surprising, to say the least. The very first thing that comes to mind to me is Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them, by Franken, which devotes a whole chapter to O'Reilly and documents numerous "lies" (Franken's word) that O'Reilly told. Where's the criticism from Keith Olbermann? Note that the "feud" gets not only a whole section on Olbermann's page (Keith Olbermann#Feud with Bill O'Reilly, but also a whole section in the show's page: Countdown with Keith Olbermann#Olbermann vs. O'Reilly. And if we start to look at references in those articles alone, we should be able to find notable sources.

So, I propose to add more information of this type to this article. I'm floating the general idea first, before I start editing. It seems that we should treat O'Reilly the same way we treat other controversial figures--to show some of the controversy surrounding them. The feud seems like the easiest to start with, since we already have the info on Wikipedia, and just need to customize it for this article. Are there going to be objections to that, assuming it's sourced properly? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:07, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I direct your attention to the section entitled A tale of two articles above for an understanding of how some very persistant editors (some of whom you've already met) were able to excise and then delete virtually any negative information about Mr. O'Reilly. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe what you are looking for is in my archives Qwyrxian (first collapsed discussion). The problem, as I have found, is that in reporting disputes b/w media personalities, some editors will place virtually anything they can get their hands on if it disparages Mr. O'Reilly. Since this is the case, we try to use high quality sources and to add only those controversies that have garnered significant attention (that is, can you find the information outside of Keith Olbermann's show and Media Matters for America). Soxwon (talk) 13:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I have to take exceptions here, both to the WP:AGF violation and the assertion that we should be evaluating the "validity" of criticism. The excised material critical of Mr. O'Reilly was exceptionally well sourced (to the point that each incident could have qualified for its own Wikipedia article) -- there was no question that the material was cited to "high quality sources" that "received significant attention". There is absolutely no justification in policy to exclude the sources referenced above (MMFA and Olbermann), as long as the material has received diversity in sourcing, and the statement above clearly demonstrates a core misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies. "I don't agree with the sources, so they shouldn't count." //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:25, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

A good question. I had assumed that since 2 other articles found the topic notable and of due weight, that it would probably achieve fair weight here too. However, that is my assuming too much, given that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It will be a while, but I'll take a look through the info above, Soxwon's archives, and the other articles later when I have more time. To do work like that I need a block of time where I can commit 100% of my attention for a sustained period of time. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding condescending, let's put our thinking caps on. The Olbermann articles have whole sections on the "feud" because the "feud" was Olbermann's creation and a major part of Countdown. It was not O'Reilly's creation or a major part of the Factor. Also, since Olbermann's MO, once he gained a little momentum, has been to attack any and all things politically conservative, there's a "bears sh_t in the woods" aura to just about any of those "criticisms." Should we be anxious to include Sean Hannity's "criticisms" of Nancy Pelosi in her Wiki bio, or John Gibson's "criticisms" of Olbermann in his? I think not, because they all constitute WP:UNDUE. As for Al Franken, I realize that he is now a U.S Senator but the book written in his comedic days was hardly an academic or even a serious journalistic effort (Does it have reference pages or even an index?). Again, undue weight.

That being said, if you can find more serious criticisms of O'Reilly, who, by the way, is comparatively UN-POLARIZING these days next to several other TV pundits, then be our guest, Badmintonhist (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Badmintonhist, while I'm sure we all enjoy hearing your analysis and beliefs about the truth, it really has no relevance here. Editors aren't here to "put on thinking caps" and perform analysis on the content, but simply to discuss reliable sources and application of policy. With regards to due weight, you need to get good with the fact that weight is evaluated by prominence in reliable sources, not by how you or any other editor personally feels about those sources. The sooner you realize this, the more productive your contributions will be. Until that time, you're bringing nothing of substance to the discussion and are only contributing to the chaos. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

A user who really doesn't understand why Olbermann vs. O'Reilly sections are found in the articles on Olbermann and his show but not in the articles on O'Reilly and his show probably shouldn't be editing them. All Wiki articles either use or should use editorial discretion in determining what material and how much of it should go into a given article. A GOOD bio on O'Reilly should not be heavily loaded with material coming from the "professional left." Badmintonhist (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

We do not evaluate criticism based on who it is "coming from"; we evaluate it based on its coverage in reliable sources. We don't use "editorial discretion" to evaluate the criticism directly, but rather the diversity and quantity of the criticism in reliable sources. That is a very basic tenant of Wikipedia; based on your own words, you're being intentionally tendentious. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Limiting material to that from reliable sources IS evaluating it according to where it's coming from, isn't it? But okay Blax, can you give us, say, your TOP FIVE reliable sources for material on O'Reilly which have either not been included or else have been significantly underused in this article? I'd like to see their "diversity." Also, perhaps, two or three basic news stories on O'Reilly that have been omitted or underdeveloped. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

No, but I will take the time to help correct your misunderstandings. You're confusing the critic with the source. I apologize if no one has ever taken the time to explain the difference to you. The "critic" is the organization or person that is issuing the criticism (referred to as a primary source). The "reliable source" is the publication that publishes the criticism (referred to as a secondary source). Now, in some cases a source can be both the critic and the publisher (namely, when an organization's primary function is to publish criticism (not to be confused with "self-published" sources)). In such cases, we evaluate their reliability based on how they're referenced by other sources -- if an organization such as Media Matters is routinely cited by other secondary sources (such as NBC, Fox, etc.) then their criticism is generally accepted within the organization's scope. Generally speaking, if multiple criticisms on the same topic exist from multiple critics it is acceptable to include such an organization's criticism as part of the larger whole. Of course, MMFA criticism doesn't warrant inclusion on its own, but if other critics exist for the same issue we can include MMFA's criticism without the need that it be referenced by a third party, as MMFA is considered reliable for their own criticism. You can find all the details in the archives of WP:RSN. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

No, but here's my gratuitous lecture. How does that advance the ball, Blax? We're talking about whether and what reliably sourced criticisms should be added to the copy. You seem to think that "critical" stuff should be added to the article. What stuff? Badmintonhist (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Your statement "Limiting material to that from reliable sources IS evaluating it according to where it's coming from, isn't it?" is fundamentally incorrect, and appeared to ask for a deeper explanation. I apologized and took the time to explain the difference between "critic" and "source", and you ignore it completely (instead preferring to insult me and ask open-ended questions). Until you understand the fundamental concepts explained above I don't think you're going to be able to productively participate in the discussion. I have no plans to get sucked down your rabbit hole regarding particular criticisms until you understand the basics of how Wikipedia works; otherwise we'll just be fighting the same deficiencies that are causing us problems here. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Fascinating stuff, all this, and quite enjoyable. None of it helps us decide what to do with the article, however. I'll try within the next week to work up some preliminary text...I think that it will be far more useful to discuss actual (potential) additions to the article, rather than discussing philosophically and abstractly what makes a good source. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, it is generally the view of Wikipedians that criticism should be interweaved through out an article instead of place into a criticism section. This is due to criticism sections becoming magnets for people to overload with any criticism no matter how minor. O'reilly at one point in time had his own criticism article, but much of it was gutter-sniping by relatively unknown figures, so it was merged here and then much of it deleted. If you have criticism to add, then feel free to add it, and enter it within the article itself.
"I have to take exceptions here, both to the WP:AGF violation and the assertion that we should be evaluating the "validity" of criticism."
Is this your idea then of adhering to AGF?
"very persistant editors (some of whom you've already met) were able to excise and then delete virtually any negative information about Mr. O'Reilly."(first comment you made here with no provocation at all)
For you to know Qwyrxian AGF refers to the wiki policy Assume good faith and implying that editors who are arguing against adding criticism because it is undue weight are persistently trying to delete all negative info is a clear violation of that policy.
"The excised material critical of Mr. O'Reilly was exceptionally well sourced (to the point that each incident could have qualified for its own Wikipedia article)"
You continue to mistake amount of sources as representing notability of an article. It doesn't matter if you can find 20 sources mentioning a comment someone made about someone else, that comment is not enough for a whole article on it. To think that many of the "controversial" incidents O'reilly has been in deserves their own article is something which is only going to lead more editors to believing you don't understand due weight. Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if all of the above is directed exactly at me, but just to clarify, it was Blaxthos who brought up WP:AGF. I certainly have no reason to believe that anyone here was not acting in good faith, and I hope I didn't imply that they weren't. I just found it odd that there is almost no criticism at all of such a polarizing figure. I, too, agree that it would be better not to have a separate "criticism section." I certainly do not want a separate criticism article; while I know not everyone agrees, I actually think that almost all such articles are NPOV and are questionable inclusions at best. My thought is that I'll start by reseaching the "Olbermann feud," and try to determine if it really is of due weight to include here (my intuition says yes, but research is needed). Next I'll look for other sources and see if there's anything relevant that's missing. It may well be that I don't find anything at all worthy of including in the article; it just seems unlikely to me, given what I've heard of BOR, that he hasn't been the subject of independent, reliable reporting that is less than positive in nature. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:14, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you were not acting in good faith but that Blax wasn't exactly promoting that rule he was citing. If you do research on their "feud" then you will find that O'reilly has never mentioned Olbermann even once on his show or in the public, and that Olbermann's "feud" is generally seen as his attempt to generate publicity by attacking a well known public figure at the same time slot. As for O'reilly being "polarizing", he really isn't, no more than say Obama, Olbermann, Pelosi, or any well known political figure is.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 05:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

This is very much off topic but I just can't let it pass. Let us not put the President, or even Speaker Pelosi, in the same category as Olby when it comes to being "polarizing." I realize that Obama and Pelosi are much bigger political fish, but when it comes to sheer off-putting obnoxiousness they (particularly the President who is generally quite measured in his comments) don't rate a mention compared to Olby. Neither does O'Reilly for that matter. Maybe Limbaugh, but even that's questionable. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe the Washington Post is a credible source? The following is in the article titled "The Life of O'Reilly" by Paul Farhi published 12/13/2000: "O'Reilly actually grew up in Westbury, Long Island, a middle-class suburb a few miles from Levittown, according to his mother Angela, who still lives in the Levitt-built house Bill grew up in. His late father, William O'Reilly Sr., was a currency accountant with Caltex, an oil company; Angela "Ann" O'Reilly was a homemaker who also worked as a physical therapist.

While hardly well off, the O'Reillys--mom, dad, Bill Jr. and his younger sister, Janet--weren't exactly deprived, either. Both children attended private school, and the family sent Bill to Marist College, a private college in Poughkeepsie, N.Y., as well as the University of London for a year, without financial aid.

O'Reilly's father was a frugal man and a wise investor. His son acknowledges in his book that his father bequeathed "a very nice chunk of change" to his mother upon his death in 1986. As for Dad never earning more than $ 35,000, what O'Reilly doesn't mention is that Dad retired in 1978, when a $ 35,000 income was the equivalent of $ 92,000 in today's dollars."

Is there any reason this shouldn't be added to his early life or at least to controversy section. The man influences the opinions of millions of working-class people who believe that he himself grew up in the lower-class. (Peibiao1 (talk) 13:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC))

Umm, I think if you look in the Political views and public perception section of the article you'll find a healthy portion of that stuff in there already, Peibiao. Did you expect Farhi's article to be quoted verbatim? Badmintonhist (talk) 16:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

calm down kitty, I see it now, thanks for pointing me in the right direction, it's placed a bit like an end note though, and it would seem logical to reside under history/early life. This is my first time commenting on WIKI so I put in direct quotes for the purpose of discussion, I'll be more careful next time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.227.175 (talk) 04:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC) [[[Special:Contributions/75.49.227.175|75.49.227.175]] (talk) 04:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)] oops forgot to sign (75.49.227.175 (talk) 04:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC))