Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

November 8

Gender stereotypes in toys

The World Wide Web has a large number of documents about gender stereotypes in toys, for example, http://www.andrews.edu/~rbailey/Chapter%20one/9040385.pdf (The Effects of Stereotyped Toys and Gender on Play Assessment in Children Aged 18–47 Months). However, I have been unsuccessful in my search for international statistics and recent trends.

• How do various countries rank in their degree of gender stereotyping in toys?
• How do various retailers rank in their degree of gender stereotyping in toys?
• How do various manufacturers rank in their degree of gender stereotyping in toys?
• How do various media rank in their degree of gender stereotyping in toys?
• Which countries, retailers, manufacturers, and media are increasing gender stereotyping in toys, and which ones are decreasing it?
• Who or what is ultimately promoting gender stereotyping in toys, and who or what is ultimately inhibiting it?

—Wavelength (talk) 15:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have very high expectations of statistics! They are probably not collected for such things. And there are underlying definitions that you need to explore, for example how do you define a gender-stereotyped toy? What about a situation where dolls are being bought for little girls, but their brothers also play with them? Have you thought about using some kind of case study approach to your questions, where you take the largest manufacturers, download their catalogues, and analyse them using some kind of framework? Lego comes immediately to mind as an interesting case that is relatively unstereotyped. Then there are books, music and story CDs, jigsaw puzzles, educational toys generally. Tricycles and bicycles - does it matter if they are only available in pink and blue, though? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:30, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

To your four questions, I give the following answers.

• Definitions may vary somewhat among various researchers, but I anticipate that such variation would be minimal. On page 100 of the document to which I linked in my opening message, the authors mentioned a seven-point Likert-type scale, where 1 means "very male", 4 means "neither male nor female", and 7 means "very female". On page 101, M means "male stereotyped toy", F means "female stereotyped toy", and N means "neutral stereotyped toy".
• Where brothers play with their sisters' dolls, the dolls would still be considered as stereotyped for females.
• I had not thought about doing my own primary research, but that is not completely outside the realm of possibility.
• If tricycles and bicycles are only available in pink and blue, that does not matter.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising my reply by inserting the underlined word primary.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)]

[In three expressions (quoted above) where the document omitted hyphens, I would have used them in hyphenated compound adjectives: "male-stereotyped toy", "female-stereotyped toy", and "neutral-stereotyped toy".

—Wavelength (talk) 16:16, 9 November 2010 (UTC)]

persian in south asian languages

which muslim dynasty introduced persian language? mughals or delhi sultanate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.17.252 (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

AFAIK it became a lingua franca under the courts/rule of the Mughal dynasty. Dari Persian I believe is still considered the more cosmopolitan today. More an area of curiosity than expertise in my case, however. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The Delhi Sultanate used Persian as its official language, too. Marco polo (talk) 17:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The first Islamic dynasty to rule India was the Ghaznavid empire (10th-12th centuries), which originated from Persia. I, however, doubt that Persian was not spoken in the country prior to this. India was a hot bed for merchants from all over the place. I have a two volume work on the history of the Persian language in India. I don't recall the name off hand, but I could look it up if you are interested. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

For that matter, the rule of the Persian-speaking Sassanids and Achaemenids extended into India. Marco polo (talk) 01:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

New york accent

For many years listening to New York accents (mostly on tv) I have always thought there was a very strong Dutch influence. I know that the article New York accent does mention that a layering of Dutch will be there due to the early Dutch settlers. I do though feel that the Dutch accent comes very much more to the fore than any other settlers accents from the past. Would New Yorkers and others agree with this? It could also be that my recognition of accents is not as good as I think and I'm missing other accents that have as much influence on the Newyorkers way of speech. Jack forbes (talk) 17:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Can't say I agree, a Dutch accent sounds quite different to me. A "New York" (for example, listening to news radio) accent tends to be "neutral." That said, many neighborhoods or boroughs have their own distinct accent. I somehow avoided the dreaded (or lauded depending on your perspective) Brooklyn accent which either side would argue compellingly is the antithesis of the "New York" accent. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It's true that there is more than one New York accent. I think the stereotypical New York accent is the white working-class accent of, say, Queens. Having grown up outside New York and now living in Boston (an area where Dutch colonists had little presence), I have a perspective on these accents. Both the Boston and New York accents are among the few accents in North America affected by the loss of rhoticity in parts of eastern England in the 17th and 18th centuries. In the case of Boston, this is probably because the original settlers in the 17th century came from an area (East Anglia) that had probably already lost rhoticity. In the case of New York, it is probably because English settlers did not begin to outnumber the Dutch until the end of the 17th century, by which time the London region, where many originate, was probably non-rhotic. The features that most distinguish the New York accent from the Boston accent are the pronunciation of vowels written ar, which in IPA symbols is roughly [aː] in Boston and [ɒː] in New York, and the breaking of the vowel in words like law and dog. In Boston, this is pronounced [ɔː]; in New York it is a glide [ʊ̯ɔː]. The first feature might just be connected with the backing of /a/ in Dutch words like Amsterdam. The second, though, has no connection to Dutch that I can see. The only foreign connection that occurs to me is the similar breaking of Latin /o/ in Italian words such as buono, though I think that this feature is more likely to have developed indigenously than as a result of Italian influence. Likewise, the backing of ar could be an indigenous development as well. Marco polo (talk) 17:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Not quite on-topic, but it may be of interest... Gangs of New York mentions this: "Particular attention was also paid to the speech of characters, as loyalties were often revealed by their accents... To develop the unique, lost accents of the Yankee "Nativists" such as Daniel Day-Lewis's character, Monich studied old poems, ballads, newspaper articles... Monich concluded that native nineteenth century New Yorkers probably sounded something like the proverbial Brooklyn cabbie of the mid-twentieth." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.235.97.146 (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It probably varied a lot by class. My grandmother, who was of upper middle class English and Scottish descent, grew up in Brooklyn in the first and second decades of the 20th century. Her accent was very similar to that of Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR), who was likewise of Protestant white descent and grew up in the New York area in the late 19th century. Here is an audio clip of FDR. Marco polo (talk) 00:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing the consensus is that there is no strong Dutch influence in the New York accent. I do hear it but then it may be that it's all in my head. lol Jack forbes (talk) 16:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing the OP knows about New Amsterdam? 05:01, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

other explanations

what are other explanations for this: http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9100 Than the conclusion the article reaches regarding the reason for the attack? (i.e. other than the explanation that the attacks took place because he 'looked like an arab', and that the attack was of a 'nationalistic' character). Secondly, how likely is the article's conclusion to be accurate? (0.0-1.0) Thirdly, insofar as there is a significant chance that the article is accurate, I would like to know where in Nazi Germany 1920-1945 this sentiment expressed in this way could be placed? In other words, when is the earliest time during that period that nationalistic German youth would have attacked someone for looking Jewish (without that person actually being Jewish)? Thank you. 84.153.236.235 (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Given that you're editing from a German IP, I'm guessing you probably read and write German. I think you'll probably get a better answer faster at our German counterpart, w:de:Wikipedia:Auskunft. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:16, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I think they don't like to always have everything compared to the Worst Thing That Modern Humanity Has Ever Done, the Holocaust, i.e. that they did. So I wouldn't ask them... (It's just rude.) 84.153.236.235 (talk) 19:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

84.153.236.235—you say, "I think they don't like to always have everything compared to the Worst Thing That Modern Humanity Has Ever Done, the Holocaust." Where in your above explanation did you compare anything to "the Worst Thing That Modern Humanity Has Ever Done, the Holocaust."? I don't see that. Bus stop (talk) 19:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Good questions, OP. I'm sure you've already thought that one possibility is that it could have been an incident of "non-ethnic" hooliganism pure and simple. The victim is reported to have said "they said I looked like an Arab" (in a language he could understand, while they were kicking and beating him...). There does not seem to be any other evidence of that being the real cause. It does seem at least plausible that that really was the cause, though. (I am not familiar enough with German social history to know the answer to your final question). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't really see that - the article is vague enough on the point of who said the guy looked like an Arab that my assumption was that the friends he was visiting told him that. Presumably in either English or Spanish. Or he may even speak Hebrew (remember, the friends were Jewish), in which case he might have understood his attackers. Also, in my own opinion, it's quite likely that this was racially charged - after all, unfortunately no society is completely without angry, hostile, violent racist idiots. I don't see why Israel would be an exception. TomorrowTime (talk) 20:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

An attack like that isn't unique to a Nazi environment. One could easily find an example of Jewish looking people attacked in Germany in 1919 or earlier. People have been attacked in recent years in Germany for looking foreign or Turkish. A few similar attacks are mentioned in the Racism in Germany article if you're interested in an actual reference. --JGGardiner (talk) 23:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The terminology of "nationalistically motivated" crimes seems to be used by Israeli police on other occasions as well, see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3632504,00.html . --Soman (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

When seagulls follow the trawler

What meaning or point was Eric trying to convey? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3221471.stm Unlike us Brits, the Froggies have philosophy lessons at school apparantly. 92.24.186.80 (talk) 21:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

According to our article on Eric Cantona, he was "[p]erhaps referring to how journalists would constantly monitor his behaviour" ("Cantona said, in a slow and deliberate manner: "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much." He then got up from his seat and left, leaving many of the assembled crowd bemused.") So, Cantona is the trawler, the journalists are the seagulls, and the newsworthy gossip are the sardines. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there's an implicit suggestion that reporters are opportunistic scavengers willing to squawk and squabble loudly over any smelly refuse that falls into their grasp. which may in fact be largely true... --Ludwigs2 22:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean, maybe? I'm thinking of a certain Don Henley song right about now... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:23, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

While I agree that the interpretation of the quotation given by Sluzzelin is the most obvious one, I do think that Cantona's main point was made not so much by the content of his remark, but by the absurdity of it; by saying something seemingly nonsensical to a room full of journalists and cameramen waiting for a statement, he perfectly ridiculed the media hysteria surrounding him at that time. Ooh aah Cantona. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

November 9

Skinner

2 questions about BF Skinner: 1) Is the Professor Burris in Walden II the version of the author himself in a story (I forgot what that's called)? 2) WHo is the second most famous writer or philosopher or statesman, etc (pretty much any non-entertainer) who is also known by the surname skinner? (your Skinner article is not very helpful in that repsect, it is only a list Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 03:23, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding #2, how could we possibly rank all the Skinners listed by popularity? There is no objective scale for "most famous". Dismas|^(talk) 05:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously you want Seymour Skinner, the educationist. Rmhermen (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Any ranking by order of "most famous" is bound to be subjective, but if you wanted a sheen of fake objectivity, you could perform a Google search on each name and see how many hits you get. This is certainly not a good indication of how famous each person is in any particular corner of the world, or even how many people in the world know of each person; but it does shed light on how many times they've been mentioned on the Web, which is a sort of fame, I guess. Personally, and this is OR, but I have to second the nomination of Seymore Skinner as the second most famous, at least to me. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Oldowan tools experiment

The author of this book review states, in passing, "Experiments have shown that Oldowan tools can be made using just the part of the brain that was available back in Homo habilis times." Is that true? What was the nature of these experiments? I can't find anything at the Oldowan article. LANTZY^TALK 06:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, well, the first google result for oldowan brain was a UCL text that I couldn't access, but which told me the answer is using PET scans. Then I tried google books, which has a lot of results for oldowan positron emission topography, and the first result there told me one Dietrich Stout is responsible for the experiments. Here's an article about it from his university's site, [1] which links to this [2] PLoS ONE paper. It was only at this point that I realized I'd already read about it here [3]. 81.131.31.223 (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Word for three joint rulers

Not sure if this should be posted here or at the language desk but I am looking for a word that describes the rule of three persons over a state. I believe it begins with 'Tri-' and I believe the word also contains a 'V' but I can't for the life of me think of the name of the word. I'd be very greatful for any help, my dictionary hasn't yielded any information so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.224.196 (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Triumvirate is what you seek. DuncanHill (talk) 08:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.224.196 (talk) 08:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Next time try reading the dictionary entries in reverse order, starting with triz-, then triy-, etc., and you'll find it sooner. --Anonymous, 09:40 UTC, November 9, 2010.

I don't see why reading it from "triz-" to "tria-" would be any faster in a general sense than reading it "tria-" to "triz-", if you don't know any more of the word than the opening "tri-". GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 09:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"It's a joke, son." --Anon, 23:16 UTC, November 9, 2010.

Troika is another name for 3 joint rulers if the rulers in question desire a Russian flavor. Googlemeister (talk) 14:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Nabokov on Dostoyevsky

As I understand it, Nabokov prized the writings of Tolstoy very highly, but considered that Dostoyevsky was wholly overrated. The idolisation of Tolstoy is apparent from many of his writings, but I can't seem to find anything that explains why he disliked Dostoyevsky. Can anyone help? 84.93.169.198 (talk) 12:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a lecture on Dostoyevsky in Nabokov's Lectures on Russian Literature. To name all the things Nabokov disliked about Dostoyevsky would be difficult; he thought the style was banal, the characters were merely puppets or illustrations of ideas, the religious mysticism in D.'s work was vulgar and nauseating, D. lacked sense of humour, etc., etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.166.72.254 (talk) 14:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

A quote: "I must have been twelve when I read Crime and Punishment for the first time and thought it a powerful and exciting book. I read it again at nineteen, during the awful years of civil war in Russia, and thought it long-winded, terribly sentimental, and badly written. I read it at twenty-eight when discussing Dostoevsky in one of my own books. I read the thing again when preparing to speak about him in American Universities. And only quite recently did I realize what is so wrong about the book. The flaw, the crack in it, which in my opinion causes the whole edifice to crumble ethically and aesthetically may be found in part ten, chapter 4. It is in the beginning of the redemption scene when Raskolnikov, the killer, discovers through the girl Sonya the New Testament. She has been reading to him about Jesus and the raising of Lazarus. So far so good. But then comes this singular sentence that for sheer stupidity has hardly the equal in world-famous literature: "the candle was flickering out, dimly lighting up in the poverty-stricken room the murderer and the harlot who had been reading together the eternal book." "The muderer and the harlot" and "the eternal book" --what a triangle. This is a crucial phrase, of a typical Dostoevskian rhetorical twist. Now what is so dreadfully wrong about it? Why is it so crude and inartistic? I suggest that neither a true artist nor a true moralist--neither a good Christian nor a good philosopher--neither a poet nor a sociologist--should have placed side by side, in one breath, in one gust of false eloquence, a killer together with whom?--a poor streetwalker, bending their completely different heads over that holy book. The Christian God, as understood by those who believe in in the Christian God, has pardoned the harlot nineteen centuries ago. The killer, on the other hand, must be first of all examined medically. The two are on completely different levels. The inhuman and idiotic crime of Raskolnikov cannot be even remotely compared to the plight of a girl who impairs human dignity by selling her body. The murderer and the harlot reading the eternal book--what nonsense. There is no rhetorical link between a filthy murderer, and this unfortunate girl. There is only the conventional link of the Gothic novel and the sentimental novel. It is a shoddy literary trick, not a masterpiece of pathos and piety. Moreover, look at the absence of artistic balance. We have been shown Raskolnikov's crime in all sordid detail and we also been given half a dozen different explanations for his exploit. We have never been shown Sonya in the exercise of her trade. The situation is a glorified cliche. The harlot's sin is taken for granted. Now I submit that the true artist is the person who never takes anything for granted."

It seems from this quote that Nabokov's failure to understand (or share) Dostoyevsky's interpretation of Christianity is transformed into a literary critique, when it should remain a religious debate. Rmhermen (talk) 15:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that, in fact Christianity or Dostoevsky's understanding of it, it seems to me, plays a minor role in this quote. What he's saying is that the crimes (or sins, if you will) of the two are of completely different qualities and are forcefully stuck together in a banal way, making the scene a cheap shot. To put it differently, I think he feels infinitely more sorry for the prostitute than he does for the murderer, and is disgusted at the way they are made out to be two peas in a pod. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Which is exactly the misunderstanding; as the Christian doesn't see any "completely different qualities" and does see them as "two peas in a pod" Rmhermen (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you meant "as Dostoevsky's Christianity doesn't see "completely different qualities" and does see them as "two peas in a pod"." I take no position in this discussion, but this is hardly a universal Christian position. 86.166.42.171 (talk) 18:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Good answer, though, Rmhermen! :) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 19:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Early literary examples of time travel

The Chinese novel Xiyoubu (Supplement to the Journey to the West, 1640) mentions Sun Wukong traveling through time from the Tang Dynasty to the Song Dynasty. I imagine there are earlier examples of time travel in either eastern or western writings. If so, what are they? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 12:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Time travel in fiction has some other examples. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Early Irish literature is full of journeys to strange places where times passes differently, which could be considered an early form of time travel. In Adventure of Nera, referred to in manuscripts of the 12th century and possibly dating as early as the 8th, for example, the hero takes a break from a feast at Cruachan and witnesses it being destroyed by a fairy army, which he follows into the fairy mound. After a year in the otherworld he returns to the real world to discover that it's the same night he left and Cruachan has not yet been destroyed, so he is able to forewarn the king and queen, who destroy the fairy mound and prevent the attack. A later, and better-known, example, is Oisín in Tir na nÓg, in which Oisín spends three weeks in the otherworld, and returns to Ireland to find 300 years have passed. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Some persons in the Bible experienced time travel by means of divinely inspired visions.

• http://www.multilingualbible.com/daniel/7-13.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/daniel/7-14.htm
• http://www.multilingualbible.com/acts/9-11.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/acts/9-12.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/acts/9-17.htm; http://www.multilingualbible.com/acts/9-18.htm
• http://www.multilingualbible.com/revelation/1-10.htm

—Wavelength (talk) 19:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

See Time travel in fiction and List of time travel science fiction.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

[I just noticed that Adam Bishop has already linked to the first article, and that one has a link to the second.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)]

Those lists noticeably lack Louis-Sébastien Merciers L'An 2440, rêve s'il en fut jamais from 1771. Though still not earlier than the example mentioned by the OP, in the 1700s timetravel was often used in literature (especially the utopian kind), to be able to criticise current conditions under the guise of a utopian future society (in the same vein as the trick of using strangers as outside commentors of European customs like in Montesquieus Persian Letters). --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Rip Van Winkle is a famous American story that features "time travel" of a sort; the title character time travels by sleeping for a few decades, essentially what later sci-fi writers would term "suspended animation" or something like that. --Jayron32 16:32, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Ernest Coffin - English illustrator

There are many of his illustrations on the web - eg at http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/4266687091/in/photostream/ - but finding information on him is difficult, even his birth and death dates don't crop up. Does anybody know anything more about him? Androstachys (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC) Ernest Maitland T Coffin 1868-1944. He appears in the 1911 Census in Westminster where is listed as aged 43 and born in Stoke, Devon and describes himself as an artist. The Ernest Maitland T Coffin birth is in 1868 which is roughly right and the district is Plymouth which include Stoke Damarall. His wife is Almeida Coffin aged 38 and he says they have been married 10 years, although the only marriage that matches is in 1910 Ernest Maitland T Coffin and Almeida Roberts which was only a year before not ten! This is the artist. He was married to my Great Aunt, Almeida Roberts,formally known as Amelia Roberts,from Kinver, Staffs. She was many years his junior. The family story is that Amelia, as she was then, won a newspaper beauty competition, and the prize was to go to London to get her portrait painted, - whether by him or an associate we do not know. This trip to London was obviously where she met him. My mother recalled them visiting her mother, Beatrice Roberts, Amelia's sister, and them having what she considered to be quite a grand lifestyle. My Aunt had several pieces of Ernest Coffin's originals, they were water colors of seascapes as I recall. There were no children of the marriage, and I have been unable to find him on any census. Almeida's father left his wife and children and went to live in America. We wonder whether Almeida and Ernest went out there later.

The quality of his illustrations is such that the museums and art galleries are bound to be aware of him. I have not information as to whether he formally practiced medicine in favour of art or did he practise both? Androstachys (talk) 21:18, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Native American tactics

You see it all the time in western movies: the Indians ride around and around a wagon train that has formed a circle. This seems like a poor idea, exposing yourself to fire rather than taking cover or attacking at one point. Did they actually ever do this? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

According to Wagon train, it was "rare". But it does make some sense; if there is no cover (and on the plains, where would they go?), it could have been a way to protect supplies and non-combattants. Allowing the wagons to be exposed to fire is better than allowing people to be exposed, isn't it? Adam Bishop (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

(I think the OP is questioning the American Indian tactics, as portrayed in film, when attacking a circle-of-wagons, yes?)

An encirclement of wagons is essentially a basic and classic military tactical formation: the Infantry square, which has a very long history, and is particularly effective against cavalry attacks. (Napoleon, for example, put it to notably good use at the Battle of the Pyramids). I doubt that all American Indian attacks on wagon-circles always went the same way, or at least not in the way that they are "always" portrayed doing in film. It's just difficult to attack a circle of wagons from horseback no matter what – but, of course, attacking anything that can shoot back at you is always risky – I imagine they did what they thought they needed to do, but whatever it (tactically) was did not, in the end, keep the pioneers from settling the West... WikiDao ☯ (talk) 03:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about attacking wagon trains, but of course some Native American warriors deliberately exposed themselves to the enemy for the honor of the thing. —Kevin Myers 04:33, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, prior to the kinds of firearms that were beginning to be developed in the late 19th century, that kind of cavalry tactic was fairly standard - the Indians probably picked it up from US troops. The advantage of the horse lies in its size and speed: a good rider is a difficult target for civil-war era rifles (not to mention for bow and arrow), and the rapid movement allows the riders to scope out and take advantage of weaknesses in defenses faster than the defending forces can adjust. the horse opera image of Indians riding around in circles and getting picked off at a distance one by one is nonsense. The tactic would be to keep moving at the far edge of the range of the settler's weapons, and then charge in at different points looking for an opening and firing off volleys. Once the indians found an opening the settlers were pretty much toast: rifles and handguns are not a lot of use at close quarters against 800 pounds of horse traveling at 30 miles per hour (almost as bad as trying to use a gun to defend yourself against an onrushing car, except a horse is a lot more maneuverable). --Ludwigs2 16:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

That makes more sense. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

This is true further back in history too, with arrows and swords. A medieval example of an army being surprised on its march, and "circling its wagons", is the Battle of Dorylaeum. (They didn't literally have wagons but the idea is the same, armed combattants surrounding and protecting baggage and non-combattants.) Adam Bishop (talk) 23:09, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Probably the largest scale attack of Native Americans against circled wagons was the Battle of Birch Coulee. 150 or so US soldiers were on a mission to bury whites killed in the Dakota War or Sioux Uprising of 1862 in Minnesota. The US forces circled the wagons when they camped for the night, and surrounded the camp with soldiers as pickets or lookouts. Wagons were tied together by ropes, with the horses tied to the ropes of the circle of wagons (in one account) or all staked out at the open end of a semicircle of wagons, backed up against a ravine(in another account). A far larger force of Sioux surrounded the encampment and attacked, killing almost all the horses and a large number of soldiers. Indians definitely did not ride around and around the wagons, but approached on foot using whatever cover they could find, until close enough to fire accurately with rifles or shotguns. The soldiers improvised rifle pits and made breastworks of dirt dug with bayonets, dead horses, and dead soldiers. The soldiers each expended the 40 rounds of ammo they had been issued, then found that the 3000 reserve rounds were too large a caliber to fit in their rifles, so they had to whittle down the bullets to fit. The siege continued for over a day, with relief expeditions finally sent out from Fort Ridgely with artillery, finally able to drive away the Sioux. Accounts by leaders of both sides were written up years later [4]. The Sioux leader said they had very few killed compared to the soldiers. The typical western movie shows dozens or hundreds of Indians attacking a wagon train with no soldiers, only poorly armed civilians. A wagon provides little cover when the attacker is shooting from ground level hiding behind weeds or bushes or in a depression in the ground, since the wagon bed is so high up. Indians attacking wagons were more likely to just ride up while the wagons were in motion, without giving the drivers the opportunity to circle them and unhitch the horses, which would take a significant time. This was how they attacked and killed civilians of Minnesota seeking to flee to Fort Ridgely in that war. Deception was also a common tactic in 1862, telling the whites that they were only seeking to protect them from the "other Indians" who were slaughtering hundreds of civilians. It would be usually be possible to have a couple of attackers ride up alongside each wagon, to "get the drop" on the wagoneers before defensive formations could be achieved, or the attack could be made at a point where the geography would not allow wagons to form a circle. An Indian attack on horseback against an encamped wagon train might just seek to end the battle quickly by riding into the interior of the circle through any gap and conduct a quick slaughter like a cavalry charge. The attackers get to choose the site of the battle. "Human wave" attacks, like riding around and around shooting from the saddle with little regard for accuracy, while the defenders shot from cover, with no regard by the Native Americans for their own losses, were not typical. Birch Coolee was more like any Civil War battle than the movie version of an Indian attack on a wagon train. Edison (talk) 17:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

November 10

Why is Scandinavia so liberal?

--75.33.217.61 (talk) 01:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know enough to venture an answer to this fascinating question, but I would point out that Scandinavia has a political tradition that is largely "liberal" in U.S. terms. (The questioner geolocates to the United States.) U.S. "liberalism" involves what in other political traditions would be called a mix of social Liberalism and social democracy. Why this mix has dominated Scandinavia since the mid-20th century, I too would love to know. Marco polo (talk) 02:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Typically when people refer to the Nordic countries as "liberal", they're referring to their Mixed economys, high union representation, and extensive social security programs. It's an interesting history. Scandinavia has been heavily affected by both the Second World War, as well as the Cold War. After World War II, they occupied an interesting location, being geographically (and in some cases, historically) close to Russia, but also being very connected to Western Europe. We have several articles that touch of this history, including Economy of Finland, Social security in Finland, Economy of Norway, Economy of Sweden. You can also learn a lot from the "History of ..." articles as well (not to mention the parent articles themselves). Buddy431 (talk) 02:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Historically, the U.S. political spectrum is dominated by two basic interests: social justice and business interests. For people for whom keeping the government out of their wallets is paramount, they tend to be of the party of the right (Republican). For people for whom correcting social injustices is important, they tend to be of the party of the left (Democrat). Other interests ping-pong off of these. For example, because Democrats tend to be pro-choice, in protecting the rights of women over their own bodies, that tends to make people for whom the rights of the fetus are more important Republicans by default, even if the Republican party's actual legislative record shows that they are far more interested in protecting corporate business interests than fetus rights issues. On the other side, since the Captains of Industry tend to be overwhelmingly Republican, organized labor tends to be Democrat by default even if they aren't particularly interested in social justice issues, if only because labor and management tend to have opposing interests. Thus you get the so-called "broad coalitions" making up the two main parties: Democrat = Labor + civil rights warriors while Republican = Business + Religious right. Strange bedfellows indeed. Why I went through the troubles explaining all of this is because in places like Scandanavia, these issues are not at play. Scandanavia has, historically, lacked the racial component that existed in America (no slavery, relatively homogenous population compared to the U.S.) that gives the U.S. left it's basic core values, and they also have lacked the sort of corporate history America has (which is not to say they don't have corporations, or politically active corporations, it's just different.) The result is that the Scandanavian political spectrum is established along an entirely different set of values, which have no correspondance in the U.S., and visa-versa, which is why it looks so different. The same sort of issues exist when comparing poltical systems from other parts of the world as well; i.e. what constitutes the left and right in, say, Fiji wouldn't necessarily make any sense to someone familiar with politics in Azerbaijan. --Jayron32 02:33, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Possibly because they were the last Europeans to adopt Christianity. Paganism, with its many female deities offered women more freedom than the male-dominated Church.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure it goes back THAT far. These sorts of political developments have a life cycle on the order of a few generations. See Party system for a general discussion of political party ideologies in various parts of the democratic world. --Jayron32 07:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of possible explanations:

• The countries are small, open economies aligning the interests of the workers with those of the capitalists (workers would not want wages too high, as that would make industries less competitive on the world market). This lead to more class cooperation and less class conflict since the early 1900s
• A strong Lutheran (Protestant) heritage, giving in particular high literacy at an early point in time, inducing equality of opportunity when "modern society" came along
• Ethnically homogeneous populations (I'm not sure I believe that one, but it is frequently put forward)
• Geographies that do not make large land-holdings feasible (except southern Sweden and Denmark); consequently, self-owning farmers became the norm. In addition, large emigration (in particular to North America) during the late 1800s and early 1900s relieved the countries of population pressure. Without emigration, we could imagine that there would have been large groups of poor, landless people
• All these things lead to low inequality, making it easier to agree on what the original poster calls "liberal" policies.

Jørgen (talk) 09:13, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the agricultural situation as an exception in Denmark as compared to the rest of the Scandinavian countries, one could mention the Danish cooperative movement and the Folk high school movement, both of which allowed for an increasing political awareness of the peasantry from the mid 1800s onward. This probably made up for the Danish lack of a long history of small independent farmholders (up until early 1800s it had mainly been large estates and tenant peasants). And they eventually managed to gain government control in 1901. Regarding the emigration to the new world, as compared with the emigration from Sweden and Norway, the figures for Denmark are also fairly low. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

And I agree with Jayron32 that paganism has nothing to do with it. The intermediate period in Scandinaniavian history between the 1000s and modern history has mostly been a period of autocratic governments, conservatism and militarism. The notable exception being that very interesting time in Swedish history called the Age of Liberty, where one could infer, perhaps anachronistically, a lot of the elements that make up modern "liberal" society - (some) women's suffrage in voting matters, (relatively) free press, (at least nominal) political influence of all estates. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Jørgen's points, I think, do an excellent job of explaining this phenomenon for Sweden, Norway, and perhaps Finland. Denmark differs in the historical predominance of large landed estates and a disfranchised peasantry as well as in the lack of substantial emigration as a "safety valve". That situation seems to have changed during the 19th century though with urbanization and the rise of the urban bourgeoisie in Copenhagen and other cities to power relative to Denmark's landed aristocracy, which lost relative power during that century. By the early 20th century, Denmark's political situation was similar to those of the other Nordic countries. This suggests that emigration was not such an important factor in Sweden or Norway. Regarding ethnic homogeneity, Jørgen doubts its importance, but, from a U.S. perspective, it seems quite crucial. In the United States, social democracy has historically failed to gain traction because, to put it in blunt class terms, the ruling class has been able to coopt the racial anxieties and resentments of the white working class in order to bring about the opposition of the white working class to social democratic measures that could benefit the black working class. This has been especially true in the U.S. South (not coincidentally the region where blacks make up the highest share of the population). The Democratic Party—the party whose principles have historically included mild social democracy—held the strong loyalty of the white working class, especially in the South, until it began to back racial equality. As soon as the Democratic Party took this stand, in the 1960s, it almost completely lost the support of the white working class in the South and much of the support of the white working class in other regions. The more authoritarian, militaristic, arguably plutocratic Republican Party was able to subtly present itself (somewhat deceptively) as the defender of white privilege. Because Scandinavia lacked this racial antagonism, the owners of capital have not been able to divide and dominate the working classes there. Beyond this, until very recently, the owners of capital and even the upper bourgeoisie in the United States were largely Protestants of British or Germanic descent. Many looked down on people even from other European backgrounds. They therefore saw other Americans as not really "their kind of people" and therefore not worthy of social benefits. This kind of ethnic division did not exist in Scandinavia until recently with immigration since the late 20th century. Not coincidentally, the rise of immigration in Scandinavia has eroded social solidarity there and promoted the rise of rather illiberal anti-immigrant political groups. Marco polo (talk) 19:06, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I want to throw in one more hypothesis on this, and this is a feature that might distinguish Scandinavia not only from the United States but also from many other parts of Europe: community solidarity rooted in religious homogeneity and historic churchgoing patterns. Historically, the churches in predominantly Christian countries were the sources of most forms of charity and social welfare until the 20th century. The United States has always had multiple religious divisions, both between Christians and Jews and among Christian denominations. Beyond this, U.S. Christian denominations and congregations have historically been segmented by class. The very wealthy tended to attend a few Episcopal, Congregational, or Presbyterian churches in a few coastal cities. They largely looked down on Jews, Catholics, and even Baptists and did not see why their charity should extend to the undeserving members of less enlightened churches (or synagogues). In Europe, some countries, such as Germany and Britain, have had religious division. Even in Catholic Europe, while all may have belonged to the same denomination, the rich tended to have their own congregations in places like Versailles, Rome, Milan, or Madrid. In Scandinavia, by contrast, historically everyone was Lutheran, and wealthier families typically attended congregations with considerable income diversity, which may have given them a greater feeling of obligation to their less fortunate compatriots. While religion ceased to play a central role in Scandinavian cultures during the early to mid-20th century, this feeling of community solidarity and/or mutual obligation may have survived as part of the culture. Marco polo (talk) 20:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

From my perspective you would ask: "Why is the US so right-wing?". I guess that the OP and most of the people reading this are from North America. 92.29.125.32 (talk) 10:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think that's a much better question, yes. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I thought Jayron had some excellent analysis. I would add a few thoughts. First of all what is meant by "liberal" is not clear. There is Social liberalism and Classical liberalism which roughly correspond to Democrats and Republicans (U.S.). The Liberal tradition goes back to Locke and the US founding fathers before there were Ds and Rs. Socialists wouldn't call themselves "Liberal" in this regard. Second of all, the number one reason for Scandinavia being the way it is (i.e. whatever the original question poser meant) is EDUCATION. Scandinavian countries have a very high level of education, and that makes a culture tend toward communitarian, anti-fascist, anti-corporatist, and humanist values.Greg Bard (talk) 15:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There's more to it than that. Students in the Canadian province of Alberta perform exceptionally well in international tests, yet Alberta is one of the developed world's most conservative jurisdictions in many senses, behind only some U.S. states. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:40, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The reactions to the Sweden general election, 2010 may partly answer this query.Lihaas (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

In what sense? --Soman (talk) 21:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

L'internationale

Hello. Where can I find a freely-accessible online recording of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th stanzas of the French song L'Internationale? I've already found the 1st, 2nd, and 6th. Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried the links from our article The Internationale? DuncanHill (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Titans v. Olympians

It strikes me, while reading the article about Greek goddess Selene v. Artemis, that the Titans were the pantheon of some previous ethnic group, who lost power to some other arriving group. I guess they might be both Indo-European, but it occurs to me that there may be a historical or sociological explanation for why one set of gods supplanted the other, esp. since some of the gods (like Selene v. Artemis) seem to overlap. I note that there are many Indo-European cognates for Zeus, but not Cronus. This makes me wonder if the Titans were non-Indo-European in origin.

"Like most moon deities, Selene plays a fairly large role in her pantheon, which preceded the Olympic pantheon. However, Selene, a Titan, was eventually largely supplanted by Artemis, an Olympian; the Romans similarly deemed Luna predecessor to Diana. "

This seems to imply that Selene used to be fairly popular, but then the Cult of Artemis took over, or something. Wouldn't change in power among human groups cause change of power amongs their gods? John Riemann Soong (talk) 04:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Something like that did happen, there was some group of people living in the area of Greece before Greek-speakers arrived; they may have been different Indo-Europeans, but they may have been something else. We have some sparse info about this at Pre-Greek substrate and Pelasgians, the name the ancient Greeks gave to those people. It also happened within Greek-speaking groups; there was (well, maybe) a Dorian invasion, which affected mythology and demography. I'm sure there are plenty of books about this subject, but one that springs to mind is The Greek Myths by Robert Graves. It's full of crazy speculation and it's not really a reliable source, but if I remember correctly Graves talks about this very idea that you've had. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

You remember correctly; Graves talks quite a bit about this. I don't know if I'd classify it as crazy speculation, but it's definitely speculation based upon his own interpretations of myths, which is a pretty dicey way of reconstructing history. Our article at The Greek Myths talks a bit about its reception among other classicists (who also seldom get confused with professional historians, FWIW). 64.235.97.146 (talk) 15:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Titanomachy mythologizes the archaic conflict that was resolved in favor of the Olympians. Robert Graves reads pre-literate socio-political struggles into the background context of Greek mythology: most scholars would agree in general, and then come to blows over the details.--Wetman (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Who is "sworn auditor"?

Pursuant to the German Code of Criminal Procedure, Section 53 (Right to Refuse Testimony on Professional Grounds):

"(1) The following persons may also refuse to testify: ...

3. Attorneys, patent attorneys, notaries, certified public accountants, sworn auditors, tax consultants and tax representatives, doctors, dentists, psychological psychotherapists, psychotherapists specializing in the treatment of children and juveniles, pharmacists and midwives, concerning information entrusted to them or which became known to them in this capacity. In this respect other members of a Bar Association are deemed to be attorneys; ..."

Who are the "sworn auditors"? Do the term define the auditors who are sworn in? Thank you.

182.52.97.6 (talk) 08:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

In German, it's Wirtschaftsprüfer, basically an accountant who operates in an official capacity as auditor of corporate accounts. "Sworn" here means, I think, that they have taken a professional oath. The German WP has more.--Rallette (talk) 10:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Some details in the post above are unclear. IMHO Wirtschaftsprüfer are Certified Public Accountants but 'sworn auditors' seem to be something else. Flamarande (talk) 10:24, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I have found the German article but some details escape me: the sworn auditors aren't regular Certified Public Accountant (German article) but I don't understand the precise difference (one of the small differences seems to be that they can't audit the books of large companies). The article clearly states that no new sworn auditors are allowed since 2005 and that this job is going to default to the Certified Public Accountant (please notice that I'm not vouching for accuracy of the article). Flamarande (talk) 10:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. Vereidigter Buchprüfer it is.--Rallette (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Children's City Maps in Canada

Hi there, I wonder, if in the cities of Canada so called Children's city maps are common. In Germany we have such Kinderstadtpläne which many cities in Germany have designed for children and their families for better getting along in their cities/neighborhoods. Are these special city maps known in Canada or not? Are they perhaps named otherwise? Greets --193.174.232.30 (talk) 10:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is a special name for them, but I have seen maps like that in Canada. I've seen them in museums, for example, or maps of a city labelled with sites of interest for children and families. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Norman surname

Would anybody happen to know how this Norman surname is pronounced: de Neufmarché? I need to add it to an article. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I would say something like "deh-noof-MAR-shay" (the de is not quite "duh", its a shorter vowel than that, and the é is not exactly "ay", it's a monophthong, not a diphthong, so its said more like a cross between the vowel sounds in the english words "bay" and "big". It's hard to explain french vowels unless you've practiced saying them.) I'm also terrible at IPA. (Unless you mean This IPA.) I like that one. You may want to ask at the language reference desk instead of here. --Jayron32 16:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Quasi-standard French IPA transcription [də nœfmaʁʃe]... AnonMoos (talk) 16:57, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

A frenchman would adjust Jayron's pronunciation very slightly by making the "noof" syllable into "nerf". Gurumaister (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, a Frenchman would phonetically spell it neuf. It is only an Englishman who would use nerf as a phonetic spelling. In most parts of North America, that spelling would be further from the French pronunciation than noof because it would insert a consonant. Marco polo (talk)

Right, if the double-o is taken as in book, then noof is actually pretty close. The problem is that I want to read it like the double-o in toot. I can't think of any way to make that clear with respelling pronunciation. Maybe it depends on how you pronounce roof (I use the "toot" vowel). --Trovatore (talk) 19:00, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it may also be relevant that I do not round my lips when pronouncing book. Someone who uses a rounded vowel for book might find it not so close to the vowel in neuf. --Trovatore (talk) 19:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I have already enquired at the Languages desk as I need the 12th century Norman pronunciation which would have been vastly different from standard French.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Homosexual panic

Resolved

I stumbled upon this article today; it seems rather ridiculous to me. I read through the history of it and looked over the Gay panic defense article. Is this really something any court (at least in America) would take seriously? 129.3.178.208 (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

U.S. courts operate on a combination of written law, common law, and case law (this is quite different from countries that operate on strictly civil codes, such as Code Napoleon). As such, it is quite hard to say what a court would take seriously. All you need is a lawyer willing to try it, a judge willing to let it go on, and a jury with a sympathetic ear. There have been stranger defenses. --Jayron32 16:22, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I marked if for a merge. we can discuss the issue further over at its talk page. --Ludwigs2 16:33, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it rape?

If someone consents to sex with someone based on a lie, is it rape? For example, if a woman consents to have sex with a man because he leads her to believe he is more successful than he really is, and she is attracted to that supposed success, but later finds out he was lying about it, and she certainly wouldn't have consented to sex had she known the truth, then is she a victim of rape? Can consent be revoked retroactively? This is a serious question. Please no answers of "it is certainly wrong/slimy/douchebaggy" because I don't think anyone would dispute that. My question is "Is it rape?" The Hero of This Nation (talk) 18:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

A theft/confidence scam analogy may be apt. Is a person who tricks someone else out of their money any less guilty of theft than someone who forcibly takes someone else's money? The Hero of This Nation (talk) 18:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there is a reason why robbery, theft, and fraud are different crimes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:35, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Asking whether something is a crime requires a jurisdiction so you can know which laws to use. See rape by deception for some cases. --Sean 18:34, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Rape by deception is what I was looking for. Note, I have undone the archiving as this was not a request for legal advice. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 18:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

• This case may be of interest – an Arab man was found guilty of rape after he had sex with an Israeli lady who was under the impression that he was a Jew. It's especially interesting as it's not equivalent to the confidence-trickery analogy: her decision not to have sex with an Arab was based largely on racist principles, of which one should strongly disapprove, but he was nevertheless involved in deception. Complicated one! ╟─TreasuryTag►draftsman─╢ 19:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

  Oh, OK, it was in that article already! Sorry... ╟─TreasuryTag►CANUKUS─╢ 19:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Something that I heard about that case is actually what prompted me to ask the question. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 19:32, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, this is all presented from the perspective of the woman being conned, but I saw another perspective, that of a woman who performs sex for money. There is a very old word for that. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

This is a very thoughtful discussion of this topic. Bus stop (talk) 01:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The technicalities of rape (the "edge cases", if you will) can be quite complicated. Here's a case going before the Supreme Court of Canada right now regarding a couple that had engaged in what was supposedly consensual rape-play involving an apparently voluntary loss of consciousness. Can sex be consensual if one of the partners is unable to protest at the time of intercourse? How far in advance can consent be given? It seems like a bizarre one-in-a-million case, but the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund has pointed out that a not-guilty verdict could greatly affect the enforcement of rape within marriage laws. Does a guilty verdict mean that even more mainstream sexual relations require constant and continual consent, even months after the fact? A messy, messy, case. Matt Deres (talk) 03:30, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused. You linked to marital rape, and then ask if this recent case of dubious consent could mean "mainstream sexual relations require constant and continual consent, even months after the fact?" _{I'm assuming your meaning 'even months into a sexual relationship', but took a moment to get there} As the marital rape article says, it is already the case in the US and much of the world that you do indeed have to have consent for each act, even months (or years) into a relationship. And rightly so: just because someone wanted sex with you yesterday, doesn't mean they want sex with you right now, and they have a right to refuse that, without you assuming. Did you mean to say something else? It sounds like the concern is for what a not-guilty verdict would mean, not what a guilty verdict would mean. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I meant months after the sex took place. In the linked case, the woman only complained months after the incident allegedly took place, apparently as the result of an unrelated argument. If the man is found guilty, what does that do to anyone in a position of regret over their actions a month ago? Would all tie-up games played between apparently consenting adults be retroactively classified as sexual assault? The spousal rape concern runs the other way; LEAF is concerned that a not guilty verdict could be used to roll back the relatively recent laws in place to protect against marital rape. If I understand it correctly, their position is that if consent can be given in advance, it could mean that a woman in a marital relationship has necessarily given prior consent purely as an act of being married. Hence, a woman complaining of spousal rape could have her case thrown out because she had, at one time, given her consent. I don't think that's necessarily so, but I can see their concern. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 20:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There was a case in U.S. in the 1980s where a woman had sex with a man perfectly willingly at the time, under the misunderstanding (intentionally created by him) that he was his identical twin, and the district attorney said that there might be difficulty finding a clear law under which to prosecute (not sure how that case turned out). AnonMoos (talk) 05:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The Ref. Desk cannot and will not answer about any particular alleged rape. The article Rape defines it as "sexual intercourse with another person without that person's consent." which is almost always interpreted as "that person's consent at the time". Rape is a seriously under-reported crime, not least because the conviction rate following rape allegations is alarmingly low. The victim in reality has the multiple burdens of convincing a court of who is the culprit, what was the act, and of their non-consensuality to it. Simply casting doubt on the non-consensularity will often gain an aquittal. A court that ab initio is sceptical of the victim will likely be convinced only by strong evidence that sex was protested from its very start, because without exculpatory witnesses any suspicion that the plaintiff encouraged or enjoyed the intercourse sinks their case. The claim "I only decided it was rape later when I learned something" is likely to fall on deaf ears, regardless of whether a non-existent witness would conclude the intercourse was rape. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I assume this is covered in most first year criminal law courses in American law schools. The general rule is that fraud in the inducement is not rape, whereas fraud in the factum is. In other words, a man can trick a woman into having sex with him (by claiming he's rich, or famous, or whatever) and as long as she understands that she's actually having sex, it's not considered rape. On the other hand, if the woman is tricked so that she doesn't even realize she's having sex (for example, the man claims he's performing a medical procedure) this would be considered rape. Obviously I'm just assuming a man is raping a woman for the ease of explanation. --GreatManTheory (talk) 04:31, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Woodrow Wilson Quote

The phrase "The war to end war" (or "The war to end all wars") is typically associated with Woodrow Wilson. Our article (the first one I linked) says that he only actually said this phrase once. I'm having trouble finding him saying it at all. Can anyone provide me with the source of this quote (from Wilson, that is. I'm well aware that Wells made use of the phrase earlier). Buddy431 (talk) 18:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

According to the Memoirs of Wilson's second wife, Edith Bolling Galt Wilson, he said to her in August 1919: "I promised our soldiers, when I asked them to take up arms, that it was a war to end wars; and if I do not do all in my power to put the Treaty in effect, I will be a slacker and never be able to look those boys in the eye." Perhaps he did use that phrase in 1917, or perhaps this is his sole usage. I'll look further. Antiquary (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Think the quote more often associated with Wilson is that WWI would be a war to make the world safe for democracy... AnonMoos (talk) 05:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

approximate ticket cost form Paris to Brussels or vice versa?

If you buy your ticket like 3-7 days in advance, how much would the fast train between Brussels and Paris cost? An approximate price is okay. Also, how long is the trip: I read somewhere that it is approximately 1 hour 10 minutes, is that accurate? Thanks. 92.229.13.29 (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I did a rough search on the TGV website, which suggested £60 ($100) each way. 1h20 was its timetabled time, so your source is approximately correct. To be any more specific, I think someone whose actually done this might be required. Cheaper trains (£45, $75) typically took 2 hours, with a 30 minutes change in Lille. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 22:32, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I checked the SNCF website and found prices between €53 ($73) and €64 ($88) for a one-way (single) journey 7 days from today. The direct fast train takes 1 hour, 20 minutes. Marco polo (talk) 02:04, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Thalys suggests from 44 to 138 euros one way. Grsz¹¹ 02:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

And the Eurostar starting at 45 pounds. Grsz¹¹ 02:14, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Huh? The Eurostar connects Paris and Brussels with London, not with each other. --Anonymous, 23:55 UTC, November 11, 2010.

The Eurostar website will quote you for and sell you tix Paris-Brussels, but the service you travel on is a Thalys. DuncanHill (talk) 00:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Book about an Italian Priest

Resolved

My mother wants to find the title of a humourous book that was popular in the UK in the 1950s. It is about an Italian village where the parish priest is always in conflict with the mayor and leading citizens who are communists. The priest has long conversations with the crucifix in the church, from which he gains devine inspiration to outwit his parishoners. It rings a slight bell with me - I may have seen a film or TV adaptation. Can anyone help please? Alansplodge (talk) 22:35, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Don Camillo. I was thinking of these books earlier today, as it happens. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Tagishsimon. It was the 1980 BBC TV adaptation that I remember. Alansplodge (talk) 09:34, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a little more information on the cast and production details here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Childhood novels

Resolved

I'm trying to remember the title of a novel I read as a child. The story centered round a family living in a city controlled by a number of deity-like siblings. The siblings control different parts of the city like e.g. sanitation, the police, energy, water, etc. They were all fighting for influence over the city, and the family's house was in the centre of the conflict. I read it during the 90s, so it has to have been published at least before 1998. I read it in Swedish, but I think it was originally published in English or German. I think the author was female.

I think the same author wrote a novel about a dog, that turned out to be an alien looking for a green star.

Also looking for a series of Treasure Island style "boy-adventure" books. I think the main character was called Wilde.

Thanks in advance. P. S. Burton (talk) 22:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you thinking of the works of Diana Wynne Jones? She wrote Archer's Goon and Dogsbody. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 23:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. Thank you, I've been looking for this for so long. P. S. Burton (talk) 23:44, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem. She's one of my favourite authors, and it's nice to point someone back to her. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Found the Wilde series on my own, turns out it was called Johan Vilde P. S. Burton (talk) 13:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

November 11

Burial at Church of the Holy Apostles

What happen to all the bodies of the Byzantine emperors and empresses after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453? Were they descecrated or destroyed? Also does the body of Constantine the Great still exist?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:53, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

It is an interesting question. The relationship between the Muslim states and Christians under their rule has been a complex one. Consider the fate of three major churches, the one you mentioned was demolished to make way for a mosque. However, the Hagia Sofia was spared, but converted into a Mosque, as were some other christian churches. Still others were left intact as Christian sites, c.f. the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, which has remained a Christian church throughout its long history. The custodians of said church have been a Muslim family, the Nusseibeh, for over 1300 years. All of which does not directly answer your question regarding the fate of the Emperors interred at Holy Apostles, but it just bears thinking that there would not have been a "standard" attitude of the Muslim states towards Christians and Christian sites. It varied considerably, and still does today. --Jayron32 04:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed by the "mad caliph" in 1009... AnonMoos (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and rebuilt a few decades later under his son. As I said, it is a complex relationship. Relations between Muslim states and their Christian subjects has, historically, varied from cooperation to tolerance to animosity. It depends on when and where one is discussing. --Jayron32 05:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the tombs were desecrated by the Venetians during the Fourth Crusade. A lot of other relics were destroyed by the Turks. I'm working from memory, so watch this space. Alansplodge (talk) 09:30, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Me again. This result from Google Books[5] Byzantium and the Crusades by Jonathan Harris says "Another group (of crusaders) was reported to have burst into the Church of the Holy Apostles... They opened the tomb of the Emperor Justinian. Finding that his corpse was uncorrupted after over six hundred years, they left it alone but stripped off everything of value...(p 168). This impassioned but rather-less-than objective page[6] says "The Latins plundered the imperial tombs and robbed them of gold and gems. The glorious tombs were completely destroyed in the fall of Constantinople to the Turks (29th May 1453) by fanatical dervishes of Sultan Mehmet II. According to the historian Kritoboulos, the dervishes smashed for 14 hours with clubs and steel rods the relics. After smashing them, they threw what was left in a lime furnace. In 1461 sultan Mehmet II demolished the church and built a mosque over its foundations, the Fatih (Conqueror) Mosque." Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

It's hard to be objective about that, 1204 was pretty terrible. Lots of contemporary sources verify it anyway. Nicetas Choniates wrote about the destruction, and even the Pope was shocked. Booty and relics show up all over the rest of Europe, obviously being sent back home by the crusaders. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Philip Glass

I've recently taken a liking to Philip Glass. Can anyone recommend other composers of a similar style? Thanks a lot. 76.68.247.201 (talk) 06:14, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Try some of the composers listed at Category:Minimalist composers. Steve Reich is frequently compared with Glass, though the two have some significant differences. I haven't kept up with Reich's more recent music, but of his older stuff I like Music for 18 Musicians, Tehillim (Reich), Electric Counterpoint, and Different Trains. I'd also suggest Michael Nyman and John Adams (composer). Adams isn't listed in the minimalist category, but some of this music certainly is. I'd suggest Shaker Loops and The Chairman Dances. Terry Riley is another possibility. I don't know as much about him. His piece In C is particularly famous and groundbreaking. Hmm, perhaps also Arvo Pärt. I quite like his work Fratres.Pfly (talk) 06:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever tried exploring http://www.allmusic.com ? They can be very helpful in this regard. --Jayron32 06:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll second Michael Nyman. He had a "greatest hits" album[7] a few years ago that would be a good taster. Alansplodge (talk) 09:23, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll second John Adams, and suggest Nixon in China, which worked well for me. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:34, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Prez/PM

In countries with both a president and a prime minister - which has more power? Are there counterexamples? Is there a list of either case? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 09:52, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

It varies from country to country. Look in Semi-presidential system, Parliamentary republic and List of countries by system of government. Let me point out that you could have found the answers for yourself in 5 minutes. Flamarande (talk) 10:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Only if they knew what to look for, which they clearly didn't or they wouldn't have asked. This is why the desk exists. Thank you for helping this person (your first two sentences are a very good answer), but please don't be rude to people for not having the knowledge or skills you have. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 10:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't rude, Sir/Madam. I just pointed out that the answer was/is extremely easy to find. So please do not defend those who are more than able to defend themselves (and more than able to find their own answers). Flamarande (talk) 11:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Rude or not rude: it all depends on what cultural background you are from. Flamarande's answer would be construed as rude in the US/West Europe, but not in Germany/Eastern Europe. 80.58.205.34 (talk) 12:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Wait, what? What do you mean by that? Are you saying that because Germany and a lot of Eastern Europe has a parliamentary system where the president is mainly a figurehead or did you mean something else? In fact, I'm not sure if I understand what you meant even if my first assumption is true. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:23, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There is the possibility that User:TheFutureAwaits is a very young child; see this archived question. If so, those of us who are at the RDs regularly should try to keep that in mind. (And being snappish with children is, I think, considered "rude" in most cultures, but that's a good point 80.58.205.34:). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 17:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion about rudeness or not goes on on Flamarande's talk page: [8]. If TheFutureAwaits is a child, then Flamarande is wrong, and he doesn't have the abilities of defending himself. There is no point is supposing that everyone here is an adult (equally, there is no point of supposing everyone here is a male from the US, although some users fall into this mistake sometimes). @TomorrowTime: I suppose 80.58.205.34 was talking only about social norms of people with different cultural background, independent of the political background. Quest09 (talk) 17:36, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

You suppose that, or do you know it, "Quest09"...? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Mhm. Different social norms. Cultural background. I'd still like the IP to explain what he meant by his grandiose assumption spreading over two continents. You see, I don't believe the world is just easily explained away with sweeping statements like that, so I'd like to know what the IP is basing his statement on. "Cultural background" is not really a good answer, because there is ridiculously more than just two cultures (even broadly speaking) in the equation USA/Western Europe vs. Germany/Eastern Europe. TomorrowTime (talk) 06:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Flamarande, for taking the trouble to answer questions at the Reference desk. Plain speaking is always best.--Wetman (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I said above could. I didn't make any generalizations. Just based on my OR, having met more than one Central-East European that were rude when he actually meant to be honest. Things that are considered rude in one country count as honesty on others. People (besides me) are just speculating that that is the reason of our misunderstading. Flamarande could feel treated unfairly now, and his critics could be completely sure that he was rude. Citing from Flamarande's TalkPage: 86.164.144.120" I am saying that the words you used, in the way you phrased them, read as rude to people (as the other user has pointed out) who come from the US and the UK, and probably other western European countries (but I am unsure of that)." User:Marco Polo"I agree that Flamarande's wording reads as rude and/or arrogant to people in English-speaking countries. (Having lived in Germany, I can also vouch that many behaviors that would be considered rude in English-speaking countries are normal in Germany.) Apart from variable cultural definitions of rudeness, I would point out that Flamarande cannot know that the person who posted the question could have found the information in 5 minutes." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.34 (talk) 11:50, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Secret Ballot of Hobbyist Society in UK

Im trying to establish if any "laws" exist in the UK that govern the conduct and rules of secret postal ballots in a non-political society of a group of hobbyists in a society. The ballots are held every two years. I am particularly interested in the scrutineer part of any LAWS (not custom and practise but LAWS)86.133.71.157 (talk) 11:18, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it a registered charity? If so, you would need to look at the role and requirements of the Charity Commission - here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe most societies that are not registered charities are governed by a written constitution approved by the membership which can be amended at general meeting by a majority vote of members. You would expect any rules about ballots to be in that constitution. I dont think it is covered by law as the society is not normally a legal entity. MilborneOne (talk) 13:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

It would be a legal entity, at least in UK law, if it is a limited company or similar. I think other organisations could be legal entities even if not companies, but I'm just guessing. 92.29.112.73 (talk) 13:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Any society has to follow its own rules, laid down in its constitution, Articles of Association or similar. If you aren't sure whether the rules have been followed, or a situation has arisen that isn't covered in the rules, then you need to get qualified legal advice. You might be able to get advice from a federation of associations in the hobby. As already said, if it is a registered charity, go to the Charity Commission. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

You might be interested in Electoral_Reform_Society#Electoral_Reform_Services_Limited, but they conduct ballots for larger organisations, not usually for hobbyists. I think it would be overkill to go to those lengths, but the society could follow the methods. As far as I know, no laws exist to cover ballots in small organisations, just their own constitution, as mentioned above. Dbfirs 21:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Generally, organizations hold elections according to their bylaws which are the rules by which an organization agrees to operate itself. Such bylaws are laid out in accordance to their Constitution (or differently named document serving a similar purpose). While bylaws are not strictly "laws" per se (as in they do not derive from the government), there may be, depending on the jurisdiction, legal ramifications for organizations that do not follow their own bylaws (for example, in violations of implied contracts, or something like that). Before any intelligent answer can be given, you'd need know what your local laws are, and what the bylaws of your organization are. There may be a civil violation, without there being a criminal one, as well. --Jayron32 21:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, these would be called rules or regulations, not "bylaws". See Byelaws in the United Kingdom. Dbfirs 09:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. The rules of The Scout Association of the United Kingdom are certainly bylaws, but that may be because it is incorporated by Royal Charter - this page says "Once incorporated by Royal Charter, amendments to the Charter and by-laws require government approval". Alansplodge (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it does say that in the general article on Royal Charter, but I wonder what "by-laws" were meant? I don't think it means the rules of the organisation. Dbfirs 18:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I have to amend my previous answer. In the Scouts, the rule book which regulates commitees, elections etc (Policy, Organisation and Rules) states "The Scout Association exists by authority of a Royal Charter, granted by King George V in 1912 and supplemented by further Charters granted by King George VI and Queen Elizabeth II. These Charters give authority to the Bye Laws of the Association, which are approved by Her Majesty's Privy Council. The Bye Laws, in turn, authorise the making of rules for the regulation of the Association's affairs, and thereby give authority for the Rules printed in Policy, Organisation and Rules."[9] We may be drifting off the point here, as a local club for enthusiasts of a hobby is unlikely to have a Royal Charter. Alansplodge (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Millions paid for art

Why are tens of millions paid for art? See for example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11732551 It seems senseless for several reasons such as 1) the same amount of money would pay for the production of thousands of art works; 2) the people or institutions wealthy enough to afford it ought to therefore be clever enough to have more sense; 3) if just an investment then the value could decline with changes in taste or fashion, and so on. What is so odd is the combination of having lots or money but seemingly little sense.

Is there any evidence for a "Rich Widow" theory of top-end art prices - that the partner of a wealthy person just sees money as numbers and recklessly buys things? Has this happened more than once? Thanks 92.29.125.32 (talk) 11:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

You can speculate with any thing - useful or not - as long as you suppose that others will buy it from you at a higher price. That might be a reason for those inflated prices. However, there are other explanations for those prices: some works of art are also Veblen goods and the more expensive they get, the greater is the motivation to buy them. Buying a Picasso will definitely bring you more status than buying work from a starving artist. And a last reason to buy important works of art at amazing prices is the possibility to monetize them through museum entry fees, which seems as a reasonable economical decision for me. Quest09 (talk) 12:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Fair market value, though the Wikipedia article takes no view beyond real estate, is based on a willing buyer and a willing seller. This is part of what free market means. "Value", driven by culture, is not necessarily directly linked to basic practicalities--Wetman (talk) 19:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The combination of money and little sense is not so unusual. They just don't stick together for long. An artwork whose provenance and significance within a particular genre are well established, as is its uniqueness (especially if the artist is both well known and dead) and which with reasonable preservation is expected to appreciate rather than depreciate, can serve its owner as a strong hedge against inflation plus being a trophy that signals both their refined taste in art and financial clout. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Typically the works that command those kinds of prices are not just works of art, they're historical artifacts. Historical documents and such are not much to look at (unless you like calligraphy and long 's's) but they often command very high prices. APL (talk) 22:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Medal?

What is Iain Duncan Smith wearing below the poppy? [10] Kittybrewster ☎ 14:43, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what it is, but he was an officer in the Scots Guards and served in Northern Ireland which would entitle him to wear the General Service Medal with the Northern Ireland Clasp[11]. It may be the lapel pin of his regimental association, but that's just a guess. Alansplodge (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Could be this one[12] but turned upside-down? Alansplodge (talk) 15:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

No. Royal British Legion badge. Kittybrewster ☎ 21:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes - this one [13]. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Religious conversions in Northern Ireland

Are Protestant-turned-Catholics and Catholic-turned-Protestants a factor in the Troubles? Imagine Reason (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, the conflict is between communities, not religions. When someone from the mostly-Protestant community converts to Catholicism, or vice versa, there will almost certainly be repercussions, but they would still be a member of the mostly-Protestant community. As the (possibly apocryphal) quote goes from an atheist being asked his religion in Northern Ireland, "I'm atheist." "Ah, but are you a Protestant atheist, or a Catholic atheist?" 86.164.144.120 (talk) 20:04, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

See the Wikipedia article The Troubles for an account of the factors involved. There were long-standing religious and political issues that cannot be represented simply as a Christian schism. The Troubles are usually referred to in the past tense since they were considered ended by the Belfast Agreement in 1998. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel able to refer to it in the past tense, since it hasn't really ended and has been reviving more recently. But I don't expect other people to do the same. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 13:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Religious conversions were not a serious issue during the Troubles, if that's what you were asking. No doubt, a few conversions happened, probably mostly as a result of marriages, but they were relatively rare, as inter-communal marriage and conversion were generally frowned upon (to put it mildly) by both communities. The first commenter is basically correct that the conflict was not about religion but about the distribution of power between the group identified as Protestant (not all of whose members were at all religious) and the group identified as Catholic (again including many individuals with no interest in religion). At its root, this was really an ethnic division, with the so-called Catholics seeing themselves mainly as descendants of the indigenous Irish population and the so-called Protestants largely seeing themselves as British people whose ancestors arrived during the Plantations of Ireland. Marco polo (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is an example of a Belfast Protestant woman who converted to Catholicism on account of her marriage to a Catholic: Jean McConville. Remember the Pope (I forget off-hand which one) back in the early 20th century did a lot of damage to Protestant-Catholic relations by issuing the Ne Temere decree which stated that in all mixed-marriages the Protestant partner had to promise to bring the children up Catholic.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to confuse things further, there have been significant, though hardly huge, numbers of both Catholic Unionists and Protestant Irish nationalists. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. And to add to the chaos, there's Kevin McGrady, an IRA man who turned informer after becoming a Born-Again Christian.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:25, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Armistice Day

I heard an interview on CBC radio today from a Canadian legion veteran stating that the 2 minutes of silence was actually to be observed at 10:58 a.m. The reason being is at 11:00 a.m. the armistice was signed and the celebrations began ending the war. Has anyone ever heard that view before? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.55.30.100 (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I've not heard that view before, and it sounds like it's describing a more triumphalist view than I generally associate with Remembrance Day, Remembrance Sunday, or the two minutes silence (in that it suggests 11:00am is a time for celebration?). But I'm sure these things vary from country to country, as different cultures have different associations. Here in the UK, the moment of the end of the war is a moment for (sad) remembrance, not celebration. 86.164.144.120 (talk) 20:57, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The 11:00 AM time was actually agreed upon as the official armistice time because of the nice pattern it made (11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month), see Armistice Day. Reasons for choosing that day and time are explained in the article. --Jayron32 21:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Quite poignant that 10:58 a.m. is mentioned in the question when the last man said to have been killed in action, George Lawrence Price (a Canadian), died at that exact time. Any connection? It's also a pity that not all commanding officers sat it out till 11:00 a.m. Jack forbes (talk) 23:01, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The armistice was actually signed at 5am on the 11th November - see our article on Armistice with Germany. I heard in a recent television program that the German delegation wanted it to come into effect immediately, but Marshall Foch insisted it should not come into effect until 11am because he wanted the Allies to capture some final strategic objectives. As a result, several thousand more lives were needlessly lost. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like the same programme I saw recently. There were many officers who did sit it out till 11:00 a.m. though the programme did concentrate on one particular American officer (who's name I forget) who ordered his men to take a town, fighting till the very last moments. Jack forbes (talk) 12:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

That would be Stenay, taken by the troops of General William M. Wright. I saw the programme too. This is a fascinating and depressing roundup of those last-minute deaths before Armistice Day, and the various reasons why attacks continued right up to the end. Karenjc 12:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, (1) the armistice was signed some time after 5 am British/French time (which was 6 am German time), but they rounded it off to 5:00 officially so that the end of the 6-hour delay would fall at a time of day that was easy to remember and communicate. And (2) the 6-hour delay was to give time for communications, so that everyone on both sides knew there was an armistice before it took effect. It was feared that if troops on one side knew about it and those facing them across the front line did not, a difficult situation would arise with the ones who knew perhaps compelled to violate the ceasefire in self-defense. When they heard that an armistice was about to be effective, different units reacted differently. Some took it as a last chance to attack with all the firepower they had, others stopped firing unless fired upon, some stopped firing until the last minute and then give a final blast with all guns.

My source for this is probably November 1918: The Last Act of the Great War by Gordon Brook-Shepherd (1981, Collins, ISBN 0-00-216558-9; Little, Brown, ISBN 0-316-10960-6); but I had A Stillness Heard Round the World: The End of the Great War: November 1918 by Stanley Weintraub (1985, Oxford University Press, paperback 1987, ISBN 0-19-505208-0) out of the library at the same time, and I can't be positive as to which facts I read in which book.

Before the advent of accurate personal timekeeping it would be difficult to halt before the hour. The tolling of a bell to mark the eleventh hour would have been a more universal signal for people to stop and reflect. Nanonic (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Two minutes silence on Armistice Day

Do people in public places or elsewhere actually observe the two minutes silence? Do people stand still or does the traffic stop? I was indoors at that time today so could not see. 92.15.3.20 (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I was in the terminal at London Gatwick Airport today and everything in the terminal stopped and went silent for the two minutes - which was amazing for such a busy place. We will remember them. MilborneOne (talk) 22:47, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I have never known any traffic to stop. Most drivers would not realize it was that time, and they would soon get irritated with anyone who stopped. Also it is not usually practical to stop activities at a railway station for example. However, shopping malls in the UK are likely to stop their muzak for two minutes and perhaps make an announcement. Now if only they would permanently cut the muzak....--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Stopping on Armistice Day in the UK is a fairly recent revival. Post WWII, Remembrance Sunday was created to avoid disruption on a working day and Armistice Day itself wasn't observed. From memory it was revived in the 1990s after a campaign by the Royal British Legion. Before WWII, observance was nearly universal. My father remembers newspaper reports of people being beaten-up (after the 2 minutes silence of course) for carrying-on walking. They were usually trying to make a political point, like yesterday's poppy burners[14]. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The entire war was a series of needless deaths and bloodshed, and few heroics; it should never have happened-a debaclé from start to finish. And the outcome of all the corpses in the trenches, the pain, the slaughter: Adolf Hitler! What a mess. Sorry for the melodramatic vitriol, I just had to get this off my chest--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a common view of the conflict. However, what course would you have had France follow when they were invaded? Should the UK have stood aside and allowed Belgium to be violated? Where would it all have ended? It's easy to be wise after the event. Alansplodge (talk) 16:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

All buses in my local town stopped for 2 minutes at 1100 on Thursday and will again on Sunday.[15] Nanonic (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Racial homogeneity and liberality?

A similar question above somewhat reminded me of this. I am half-Swedish and half-Norwegian (2nd generation), so I know that there is very little racial diversity in many Scandinavian countries. However, when my friends and relatives visit, even though they have probably never seen a black person, or any kind of person other than a white person, they seem perfectly at ease around my American friends, most of whom are not white. Not only that, they are surprisingly (in my opinion) tolerant of things that America (with hundreds of years of diversity) still considers controversial, such as homosexuality, and also of other religions and even controversial political groups (for example, as long as a party did not engage in violence they were willing to listen to its views (although not necessarily agree). This did not suddenly disappear even when the Communist part was brough up. My school (~60% nonwhite) also hosted German exchange students, and they also did not seem disturbed by these things, although predictably they expressed some discomfort at political groups reminescent of the Nazi Party. Why would this be? I don't think racial homogeneity is the key to promoting tolerance, but my experiences show otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.78.167 (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Having grown up in New Hampshire (which, especially 25 years ago, has a racial profile similar to Scandanavia) my experience matches yours regarding racial tolerance, at least among my own generation. However, I think a big part of it is the specific relationship between blacks and whites in America (vis-a-vis Slavery in the United States that makes a part of the situation. Its not just racial homogeneity, its the historical context that led to the racial diversity in America, and the completely different history in Scandanavia. And Scandanavia isn't entirely clean regarding this issue, see Vidkun Quisling. --Jayron32 00:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the original question is more along the lines: "why are the citizens of Scandinavian countries more liberal in issues like race, homosexuality, religion and politics than the citizens of the USA?"

The answer has probably something to do with wealth, security, hope for the future versus fear-mongering and religious self-rightousness and condemnation. Flamarande (talk)

There is certainly a connection between the perceived homogeneity of a place and its views on certain political topics. In America, the poor are often as seen as a "them" by middle-income whites rather than an "us" because of the racial dynamic (whites may identify poverty with racial minorities, even though most blacks aren't poor and most poor Americans aren't black). This was discussed in the famous study of the so-called Reagan Democrats of Macomb County, Michigan, next to Detroit, where middle-income whites voted overwhelmingly for the right-wing candidate Ronald Reagan. These voters had far more racial consciousness than class consciousness -- even though they were part of what Europeans call the working class, they saw social welfare programs as helping blacks, a "them," rather than "us." In a homogenous country, presumably that ethnic animosity is absent, and the middle-income are more likely to identify with the poor. However, this cannot be the only explanation. Idaho, Montana and Wyoming have tiny black populations, so it's unlikely that people in those states are hung up about race like those who live in the edge of Detroit may be. Yet those are among the most-conservative states in the union. Also, the racial factor wouldn't explain the social conservatism of the U.S. compared to Scandinavia. Members of racial minorities in the U.S. are often very socially conservative. While whites were split on the 2008 California referendum that overturned a court decision legalizing gay marriage, blacks overwhelmingly voted yes. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:08, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

In the US, racial desegregation of public schools was based in part on the idea that children who grow up in racially diverse environments will learn to be less racially prejudiced. Surprisingly, according to a recent cover story in Newsweek, this turns out to be untrue. One study "found that the more diverse the school, the more the kids self-segregate by race and ethnicity within the school, and thus the likelihood that any two kids of different races have a friendship goes down." Few would advocate segregation to address this problem; rather, the authors argue that more frank education about race is needed. —Kevin Myers 04:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

You may be interested in Bandwagon effect, the idea that when people see other people doing something, they do it too. This would go both ways. Scandinavians see their fellow countrymen being tolerant, and they don't want to be the odd one out who hates homos or blacks, so they are accepting. Your stereotypical southern baptist sees his buddies making fun of the effeminate guy in gym class or steal the little black boys 2% milk, so he does it too. There is a veritable myriad of explanations. schyler (talk) 04:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. You may also be interested in Richard Wright's Big Black Good Man. A terrific short story that takes place in a Danish Hotel in Copenhagen. schyler (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure racial homogeneity is the only factor. Slovenia is almost 100% racially homogeneous, and while we may not be particularly intolerant of black people (although the writer of this blog, a black woman living in Slovenia might disagree), homosexuals or (god forbid) the Roma ethnic minority - we're talking an actual ethnic minority here, they've been here for generations - are still very hot issues here. I wish it weren't so, but it is... TomorrowTime (talk) 07:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The people you meet in the US (whether from Scandinavia or Germany) are people going abroad, often to study. These will be a selection of the more open-minded and higher-educated people from their country. After all, if you have a narrow-minded view of the world, what have you to learn from going abroad and seeing diversity? Compare, for example, Norwegian exchange students in the US ("liberal") to Norwegian-Americans in the Midwest ("conservative"). This doesn't explain it all, but I can tell you there are a lot of people in Norway being sceptical towards people with different skin color. Jørgen (talk) 08:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The U.S. has a prison system that distinguishes it from many other countries that might seem similar. This video shows a pretty brutalizing scene. I couldn't say that the prison system perpetuates racism and related ills but I don't think it contributes to alleviating them. Bus stop (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

November 12

visa question for short story

Does a hungarian citizen today require a special visa for up to 3 months in america or can they just go with their visa without doing anything first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.31.236 (talk) 00:48, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

This web site should help you with your question. --Halcatalyst (talk)

East york and york

Are former cities of east york and york are considered the southern part of Toronto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.17.161 (talk) 01:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so...East York is, well, in the east, and York is sort of in the middle. The "southern" part of Toronto is Toronto proper, pre-amalgamation; "downtown" is in the south, from (let's say) Bloor to the lake. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The reason I ask that because Toronto has North York which borders with East York and York in the south and borders with Scarborough in the east due to Victoria Park Avenue and borders with Etobicoke in the west due to Jane Street. I want to if they were considered as south or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.43.187 (talk) 14:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on the former city of Toronto, before any of the amalgamations. I think that is what you're looking for, but I wouldn't say that all of that was "south" either. We just don't really talk about Toronto having a "south" portion, we just say "downtown". For definitions of that we also have the article Downtown Toronto. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Some departments of the amalgamated city divide it into 4 districts, corresponding roughly to the old cities of Toronto, North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough -- but they tend to use a simplified version of the boundary between Toronto and North York, and to reflect this fact, some departments do refer to the "south district" and "north district". As far as I know this districting has been decided on independently by each municipal department (parks, schools, water, etc.), and so the boundaries as well as the names vary -- for example, one department may use Eglinton Avenue while another has something more complicated. Thus the treatment of York and East York may also vary.

By the way, before the amalgamation the boundary of Etobicoke was the Humber River, not Jane Street. A small section the Toronto/York boundary did more or less follow Jane, though. --Anonymous, 23:45 UTC, November 12, 2010.

Scandinavian flags

Why do the Scandinavian countries, which are generally liberal, use blatant Christian symbolism in their flags? --75.33.217.61 (talk) 02:27, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Because "liberal" and "Christian" are not mutually exclusive. The flags also date much further back than liberalism (and, actually, further back than the Lutheranism that is currently predominant there). See Nordic Cross flag. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)...well, 1) you can be both a liberal and a Christian, 2) Scandinavia was not, by any means, particularily liberal when these flags were first adopted. The flag of Denmark originates from the 14th century. The flag of Sweden has roots to the 16th century. Btw, the separation of church and state in Sweden took place in 2000. --Soman (talk) 02:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Liberalism doesn't preclude being religious, but it does preclude state endorsement of a particular religion. --75.33.217.61 (talk) 02:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The cross is not necessarily Christian, and hasn't always been so, even. See Ankh, a symbol concerning Egyptian Theology. For future refernce, the word used in The New Testament for the execution of Jesus is stauros, literally "an upright stake, esp. a pointed one" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament, p. 586). schyler (talk) 04:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the Scandanvians weren't thinking about the Ankh when designing their flags, and I am also pretty certain that the cross was well established in Christian iconography (regardless of its true origin) when the cross flag motif found its way into the Scandanavian countries. --Jayron32 05:08, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Scandinavian cross conspicuously lacks the closed-loop component of the Ankh, and the "torture stake" thing is a JW-specific theory which is conspicuously unsupported by the consensus of Classical scholarship. AnonMoos (talk) 05:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

See Dispute about Jesus' execution method (permanent link here).

—Wavelength (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure many definitions of "liberalism" preclude state endorsement of a particular religion; however, the social organization of the Scandinavian countries certainly went hand in hand with state religion. Norway, for example, still has a state church. The Faroe Islands is (I believe; this is based purely on anecdotal evidence on my part) the most Protestant Christian country in the world. The coupling of Christian politics with US Republican-style parties, I think, mainly a North American thing. Sure, continental Europe (meaning Europe less Scandinavia and UK/Ireland) has a lot of strong Christian Democratic parties that can be socially conservative, but not "small-government" in the US sense. Jørgen (talk) 08:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, it's not as if we don't have people here in the Nordic countries (as a Finn I must insist on this) who think the cross violates their rights or something. But unlike France or the U.S., the Nordic countries never had a revolution. Therefore we lack revolutionary traditions such as the separation of church and state, and indeed republicanism (Finland became a republic almost by accident). Our liberalism has developed slowly and more or less peacefully, like in Britain.--Rallette (talk) 08:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it is as much about "not having a revolution" as "the revolutionaries not being as radical". After all, the Norwegian Constitution of 1814 represented a break with history and was strongly French Revolution - inspired, and Sweden and Denmark also had constitutions introduced in the 1800s. Jørgen (talk) 08:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

A matter of taste I suppose. At any rate, three of the major Nordic countries remain monarchies, if ever so constitutional, and republican Finland still has its official church (although some pedants will insist it's not a "state church"). In Sweden it was actually illegal until the 1960s for commoners to change their name into something that sounded too much like nobility! No "hanging the last nobleman by the entrails of the last priest" then. In all our breaks with history, we've held on to symbols of continuity.--Rallette (talk) 08:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

No revolution in the Nordic countries? Finland was on the verge of becoming a socialist workers republic (see Finnish Civil War), a revolution only crushed by foreign intervention. --Soman (talk) 12:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

This is drifting off topic, but of course what I meant was no successful revolution, that is to say, none of these countries is constitutionally founded on a revolutionary act, the way France or the U.S. are.--Rallette (talk) 14:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Turkey makes a huge point out of being a secular country, and yet it has what is generally thought to be the most common symbol of Islam on its flag (although it's often pointed out that Islam doesn't have symbols per se and that the crescent and star are historical symbols "of the land"). These flags were adopted way before the Nordic countries became a haven of irreligion, and they are kept as a uniting symbol reminiscent of common history and common culture. The Nordic cross is a symbol for a country's "Nordicness", that's why Estonia tried to adopt such a flag a while back, and in my mind has little to do with Christianity anymore. I'm sorry to hear that some people in Finland (and probably in the other Nordic countries too) have a problem with the cross, thinking it violates their rights, because even though I'm not from a Nordic country I love the flags and I think it would be a huge mistake to give them up. Sorry for this turning into a rant. Rimush (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I assure you, it's a very small minority, and hardly even vocal. No need to worry.--Rallette (talk) 09:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The Danish flag is the Dannebrog, the original of which (legend tells) fell from the sky during the Battle of Lyndanisse against the pagam Estonians in 1219. It was accompanied by a celestial voice saying ""When you raise this banner against your enemies, they will yield before you". The banner fell into the arms of the Danish archbishop who presented it to King Valdemar II. The tide of the battle turned and the Danes were victorious. It is claimed to be the oldest flag in the world in continuous use[16]. Not a tradition to be given up lightly. Alansplodge (talk) 10:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Why do the Scandinavian countries still have state churches and, except for Finland and Iceland, monarchies? --J4\/4 <talk> 15:13, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what sort of an answer you're looking for; presumably "They have state churches because it seemed like a good plan when the churches were set up and they haven't since been disestablished" isn't going to cut it. It might help if you explained what you find incongruous in the existence of state churches in the Nordic countries. Marnanel (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

When the Danish constitution of 1849 was instituted, it was decided, on account of disagreement, to postpone the question of separation of church and state until a later date by adding a clause that said that the position of the church in regard to the state should be specified by law (§66). Until this date no politician has deemed the cause of taking this issue up as being beneficial for their careers, so the issue has been postponed in all the subsequent constitution revisions as well as in the regular lawmaking. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the a state-mandated church violate freedom of religion? --75.33.217.61 (talk) 23:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

An "established" or state-supported church can be very different from requiring all the inhabitants of a country to belong to a specific religion. AnonMoos (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

successful therapy per Freud

When asked to describe the outcome of successful therapy, Freud is supposed to have said the patient was returned to the cold, gray world that everyone inhabits, or something like that. Can anyone point me to the actual quotation? --Halcatalyst (talk) 03:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a famous sentence at the end of Studies on Hysteria, where Freud writes:

"...much will be gained if we succeed in transforming your hysterical misery into common unhappiness." ("...viel damit gewonnen ist, wenn es uns gelingt, Ihr hysterisches Elend in gemeines Unglück zu verwandeln")

Might this be what you are looking for?--Rallette (talk) 08:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, "common unhappiness" is the phrase I was half-remembering. Thank you. --Halcatalyst (talk) 14:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Health Insurance Premiums

On any given year (preferably the most recent), how much money is spent on health insurance premiums as a whole in the United States (not per family)?

Please provide sources, preferably internet articles. Your timely and informative answers will be most appreciated. 66.229.203.112 (talk) 09:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Not quite answering your question, but this search revealed lots of evidence that US healthcare is the most expensive in the world, including the first link - this PDF from the University of Maine - which indicates "the United States spent $4,178 per capita on health care in 1998", a total of around $1.2 trillion. Quite how much of that is only insurance premiums, I don't know. 212.123.243.220 (talk) 18:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Is child prostitution really being ignored in the U.S.?

I keep hearing media reports (there was another one on CNN just now) saying that incredibly large numbers of young children in the U.S. have been forced into prostitution on the streets. A figure in child prostitution is 162,000 and I've seen even higher figures - figures that would mean that there are several child prostitute liasons per capita each year in the U.S.

Now I have a hard time reconciling this with all the crazy stories about prosecutors going after children as "child pornographers" for "sexting" each other, going after businessmen who end up with one underage image among thousands on their hard drive, district attorneys threatening companies for carrying Usenet, legislation and prosecution targeting anonymous remailers and encryption software and torrents because something might slip through, and now media companies chastising Amazon for not reading every single vanity e-book anyone tries to sell on their site. It sounds like the country has a vast excess of highly trained technical enforcers looking for political prisoners to lock up, while kids are out on the streets right in the open every single night getting raped to profit the people who kidnapped them. And I've seen some sources saying that even when the "johns" get caught they don't get imprisoned and branded as sex offenders. Are things really that blatantly, flagrantly fucked up here? Wnt (talk) 11:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

There are at least three different things here:

• Sexting. Classic middle class anxiety about their kids' sexuality — a common panic and every 5 years there is a new one (remember the rainbow party fears?). This one happens to be centered on the new power of social networking.
• Heavy prosecution of child pornography or sex offenders. A more general "save the children" impulse that has in the last 10-15 years taken a complete "zero tolerance" thread in the US, leading to increasingly restrictive laws, heavy minimum penalties, and often counterproductive measures. What you are describing is a secondary effect of heavy enforcement of a zero tolerance policy — picking up borderline cases and putting them in the same category as the hardcore offenders.
• Actual child prostitution. Hard to detect, hard to break up, hard to prosecute (prosecuting the prostitute gets you no progress at all; prosecuting pimps is hard; prosecuting "johns" is a fairly inefficient way to go about it), primarily affects outcasts (runaways, homeless, etc.), potentially has a lower awareness level amongst the middle class. American attitudes towards the homeless are generally pretty bad; Americans equate poverty with failure and many think that the homeless are just "lazy" and enjoy spending all day begging for scraps. (Or worse, they have ludicrous fantasies about how good they have it off, living off of charity.) If this gets recast as a "child" issue and not a "homeless" issue, perhaps there would be room for better attention and remediation. I've seen the figure that it takes on average only 48 hours for a child runaway to be approached by a pimp.

I focus on the middle class here because it is generally speaking the middle class who seem to be responsible for the "morality legislation" in the US. This is just a generalization on my part, though. It's not surprising to me that would find different levels of media attention, and thus prosecutor attention (prosecutors have political ambitions, too), towards these three different things. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree with 98 - there's a NIMBY class distinction here. The same distinction that results in the JonBenét Ramsey murder getting literally years of national press (and its own wikipedia page) while the deaths of inner city toddlers in drive-by shootings might merit a page six paragraph in the local paper. Standard bourgeois attitude: bad things shouldn't happen to anyone, but they shouldn't happen more to some people than to others. --Ludwigs2 17:39, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Without having read any report on this, I'll also offer that most people would think there's a difference between the calamity of a 13-year-old being a prostitute, as opposed to a 17-year-old being a prostitute in a place where 17 is the age of consent. The latter may well still be called "child prostitution". I mention this without wishing to trivialize the problem for either. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Deaths of inner city toddlers in a drive-by shooting would merit only a paragraph in the local paper? Can that really be the case? How inured to violence has the US become????? In the UK, I bet also in Canada, Australia, NZ and Europe, it would definitely make national TV news. Probably also a high profile police investigation. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, Ludwigs2 didn't cite a source for his claim about the hypothetical toddlers. Though I don't disagree that there's a class distinction in how the US media blares crime news. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not that the US is inured to violence so much as that violence against Black kids is not considered to be very interesting or newsworthy. There is a "you know how they are" aspect to those stories, even if it is sympathetic with the victims. If a white girl is abducted or dies under unusual circumstances, expect massive regional or even national attention. If a Black girl has the same happen, at most you'll get fleeting local attention. It's a race thing, it's a class thing. I doubt it is limited to the United States, though. Scrape away and practically every place has people whose plights are ignored, because if you really reported on them what they deserved, there'd be no room for anything else... --Mr.98 (talk) 20:58, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why it would be seen as hard to prosecute. There was just a huge flap about sex ads on Craigslist. If the prosecutors were interested in stopping prostitution, rather than scoring points against the First Amendment, all they would have had to do was post some ads for "barely legal escorts", then offer responders the opportunity for an encounter with someone younger if they want. Just setting up a sexual liason with a child puts the john in the position of those people you see in To Catch A Predator, while the adults can be ticketed for soliciting a prostitute and fined to pay for the operation. I don't see where they'd have any difficulty doing this at all, if they wanted. Wnt (talk) 21:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

That's called entrapment, and is illegal. It's also anti-productive. You may end up with a lot of people in jail, but how many of those would have solicited child prostitutes if they would not have been actively encouraged? And how many of those that do engage in sex with child prostitutes do not use ads to select their victims? Success is not measured by the number of convictions, but by the reduction in the phenomenon. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not a function of race, though race plays into it. The JonBenet case got a ton of press because they were a wealthy family training their daughter to be a socialite. She was someone with "prospects", and bad things are not supposed to happen to people with prospects. People without prospects are (largely) ignored by the press unless they do something outrageous. based on 1990-1995 data [17] (and doing a little calculation) there are roughly 150 child homicides in the US every year. It's safe to assume that most of those involve low SES minorities, but a casual search of your favorite news archives will show you that only a tiny proportion of such homicides get national attention (1 every couple of years, perhaps), and those invariably involve upper class caucasians. do the math. --Ludwigs2 22:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Treason in medieval England

While editing an article, I discovered that treason was not officially a crime punishable by death until 1351. I never knew that (I have read loads of books, editing numerous Wikipedia articles and watched countless documentaries on medieval England). Can someone please elaborate on this? I know that Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March was not executed for the act of treason (which is what he did), but rather for having assumed royal power and other crimes punishable by death. Yet the word treason was not mentioned. I find this curious.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Where did you discover that? I can tell you all about treason in crusader Jerusalem, if that helps; there are probably similarities. In Jerusalem, there was two types of treason, "apparent" (for example if someone allied with a Muslim state) and "non-apparent" (basically an accusation without obvious proof). Accusations of treason could be solved by judicial combat, and although death was certainly possible in combat, the punishment was normally disinheritence and exile. This is specific to crusader Jerusalem and Cyprus, but in the thirteenth century there were two political factions who went around accusing each other of treason and had to constantly fight judicial duels. However, there is at least one example in the twelfth-century where the king considered an action (in this case an attack by the Templars on a Muslim ambassador) to be an attack on himself, lèse majesté, and that was punished by execution. Sorry, I blathered on there, that's probably not even relevant, haha. England, of course, is different because it had an older tradition of common law, and the laws and courts developed much differently than those in France and elsewhere. I would guess that treason was punished by exile or disinheritence in England as well, and for whatever reason it was upgraded to a capital crime in 1351, if what you read was correct. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I read it here: Hanging, drawing and quartering and here: Treason Act 1351. As I had mentioned before Roger Mortimer was not hanged for the crime of treason but rather for having assumed royal power.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Prior to 1351, treason was a vaguely defined crime. Treason and traitors in Norman and Anglo-Norman history, c.1066-1135, which examines the topic in detail and would be well worth organising access to, describes treason in Norman and early Plantagenet England as betrayal of an overlord or friend of noble or royal rank, particularly in a deceitful manner. During the twelfth and thirteenth century, high treason became more closely associated with attacks on the king. It states that a typical punishment would be exile and disinheritence, as Adam Bishop suggests. Warofdreams talk 16:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

a bit on the original research side, but I think you're getting tangled in different governance models. Treason (in the modern sense) is a crime against a state: a person is assumed to be bound to a state as a citizen, and so acts against the state one is bound to are categorized differently than 'acts of war' (acts against a state one is not bound to) or 'crimes' (acts against other citizens of a state). the modern concept of 'state', however really isn't more than a couple of hundred years old - prior to that there wasn't a clear distinction between the state and its ruler, and so treason was much more of a personal breach of trust than an abstract act of sedition. compare the related word 'treachery', which still carries to older sense. treason as an idea goes back to Cain and Able; treason as a legal construct doesn't really come into its own until the distinction between ruler and state solidifies. --Ludwigs2 17:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the English Common Law is that by definition it wasn't written down as a statute, but it was a practice of custom that had developed over time. As a result, we don't have any statutes but only limited examples in a few sources. Fordham University has a good collection of early English Common Law. It would take some research, but apparently, King Alfred's Dom speaks of "treason against his lord." It is unclear if this is treason in the sense we know of it. I can only read Latin and I'm not sure where we can find the original language source for this dom. However, Bracton also mentions treason against the lord king:

Habent etiam servi personam standi in iudicio contra dominos suos de seditione domini regis, et aliis quae fiunt contra personam eius, quia ibi admittitur quilibet de populo, et contra dominum suum de atroci iniuria, ubi agitur de vita vel membris, vel roberia

"Bondsmen even have a standing in court against their lords, for heinous wrongs, where life and member are involved, or for robbery, and for treason against the lord king and other acts committed against his person, for in that case everyone is allowed to speak."

The word he uses is seditio, which is where we get our modern word for sedition. Since ancient times, this word has meant "insurrection." The domini regis/Lord King qualifies the type of sedition of which the serf/bondsman has standing in the courts against his lords. This is a very clear, 13th Century English reference to treason in the same sense that we know of it today. What is interesting to note is that Bracton qualifies sedition against the Lord King to be a felony. All felonies were punishable by death (hanging) or exile at Common Law according to Bracton. What happened to the land of felon was a complicated matter of great interest to heirs, wives, lords, and the king. I would have to argue that treason was punishable by death earlier that 1351, but I cannot say exactly when it was established as a capital offense. At least a hundred years earlier, it was firmly established in Bracton's time and not a new principle. The English translation of Bracton on Harvard Law School's website is actually quite good. I would be curious to see if the Dom of King Alfred also used the word seditio; if he did, one might be able to make an argument that the penalty of death for "plotting against his lord" was a 9th century recognition for the death penalty for treason. My feeling is that 1351 is way too late and the concept and punishment had several hundred years of precedent. It may take some digging, but I am confident it could be established as earlier. Gx872op (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The Assize of Northampton from 1176 lists treason as an offense. I can't find the Latin at the moment so I'm not sure if it's traditio or seditio or something else. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Bear in mind the distinction between High treason and Petty treason (clarified in some links included above but not explicitly mentioned), and possible confusions arising from omissions of the qualifiers in context. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:49, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

This guy Bartholomew de Badlesmere, 1st Baron Badlesmere was hanged, drawn and quartered in 1322 for rebelling against Edward II, which was of course an act of treason. It seems that in 1351 the law specified what crimes actually constituted treason and promulgated the Act of Treason. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the English flag a Nordic Cross flag?

The red cross on a white background. Does its design come from Nordic roots of centuries ago? 92.28.248.229 (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

No. They are all Christian crosses but the Nordic crosses are all offset towards the hoist. Alansplodge (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Nope. The flag of England is of medieval origin and predates the first Nordic cross design, the Dannebrog which is said to be from the 13th Century.--Rallette (talk) 18:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It most likely doesn't predate the Dannebrog, as they are both of medieval and crusader origin (the myth of Dannebrog falling from the skies should of course be taken with a big spoonful of salt). But yes, Alansplodge is correct that it is not a Nordic cross flag. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, both their origins are obscure. But based on our articles, the red cross of St. George has been acknowledged as the symbol of England since the early days of the crusades, while the first sources connecting the white cross on red to the king of Denmark are from the 13th and 14th Centuries (although the article on the Danish flag mentions as "possible" some coins of an unspecified earlier date).

Curiously, our article on the Scandinavian cross gives no theory on the origin of the asymmetrical design (the Dannebrog is a square banner in the earliest depictions). And a quick search fails to bring up any commonly accepted theory either. Some say it developed from the asymmetry inherent in a shield, but I have another idea: if you take a square banner with a cross and then make it into a swallow-tail by adding two triangular sections, you get an asymmetrical flag that's only one pizza slice away from a basic rectangular Scandinavian design.--Rallette (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Did Isidore Gluckstein enclose a park?

In the fifteenth chapter of Chesterton's book The Flying Inn we find a poem named The Song of Quoodle. The second stanza runs:

"They haven't got no noses,

They cannot even tell

When door and darkness closes

The park a Jew encloses,

Where even the Law of Moses

Will let you steal a smell."

In the tenth volume of The Collected Works of G.K. Chesterton, it is claimed that the fourth line of this stanza originally said "The park Old Gluck encloses" (Old Gluck being "Sir Isadore Gluckstein") and that Chesterton's wife emended the line without his knowledge because of her worries about a possible libel case (these worries arising from Cecil Chesterton's part in the Marconi scandal) thus "making a valid comment on the exclusion of the public from parkland seem like an antisemitic diatribe".

So, dear Reference Desk, my questions to you are:

• Who was the mysterious Sir Isadore Gluckstein? Could he have been Isidore Gluckstein, the co-founder of J. Lyons and Co.? If so, was he ever knighted?
• What and where was this parkland that Gluckstein brought Chesterton's wrath upon himself by enclosing? Marnanel (talk) 18:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

A brief biog here[18]. He was the eldest son of Samuel Gluckstein, the co-founder of Lyons. No mention of a park but I 'spect he could afford to have one. Maybe some confusion with Sir Isidore Salmon (also connected with Lyons) who was knighted in 1933. Alansplodge (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Me again; could be a connection with Cadby Hall, the Lyons HQ in Hammersmith, which apparently expanded in all directions. Just a guess really. Alansplodge (talk) 21:03, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The missing Louis

A few years ago, my French teacher mentioned something about French monarchs being poor with numbers. As an example, she said that one ordinal number was accidentally skipped when naming Louis the new king. I don't remember which number was skipped (13 has been considered unlucky for ages so in that case it could've been intentional) but the category[19] reveals nothing about such omission. So, is the "missing Louis" just a legend? Thanks! 88.112.51.212 (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Louis XVI's son was considered Louis XVII by royalists, although he died in prison during the revolution, so the next Louis was Louis XVIII. Is that what she meant? That wasn't because they were bad with numbers though. Was she referring to the Merovingian and Carolingian kings? They are sometimes not numbered, and there were numerous kings in different territories that make up modern France, so it can be confusing. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's a List of French monarchs, FYI. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you! 88.112.51.212 (talk) 20:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it could be argued (in fact I'm sure I have seen it argued...but where?) that the name of Clovis or Chlodovech I, King of the Franks should be modernised as Louis I, the name Louis being derived from Chlodovech. In that case Louis the Pious would be Louis II, and all subsequent kings of that name would be bumped up by one. There's a good short discussion of the name at Clovis I#Name. Antiquary (talk) 20:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Also there was no Napoleon II (or at least he didn't really reign). 109.170.169.29 (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

There's also the famously non-existent Pope John XX, though he perhaps takes us rather too far from the OP's question. Antiquary (talk) 21:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Your teacher's observation likely refers to a famous poem by Jacques Prévert called "Les belles familles [20]" which lists all the kings named Louis, then ends: "qu'est-ce que c'est que ces gens-là qui ne sont pas foutus de compter jusqu'à vingt" (what's the matter with these people who can't even properly count to twenty). --Xuxl (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

What is the history behind Christmas programs?

Can someone help me find the origins of the Christmas Program where children provide the information about the Christmas story in a worship service, usually around Christmas time? I assume it was after Dr. Martin Luther's time, so I wondered if he began them. If not Luther, then who and when? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JerSanMax (talk • contribs) 21:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I searched Google book search and could find nothing on the custom, but given the love of folks in medieval times to do plays and pageants regarding the Bible, I would not be surprised if Christmas reenactments (stable, babe,mother and father, shepherds, Wise men) did not have an origin before 1000 AD. The "Christmas Pageant" enacted by children might well date to the 16th century as you surmise, but I could not find a history of the custom. Edison (talk) 03:31, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Nativity play is relevant. schyler (talk) 04:05, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Mosque

Where was the first mosque built and does it still exist? Lexicografía (talk) 23:11, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The Ka'ba exists, still. Hipocrite (talk) 23:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

The Ka'ba was NOT built as a mosque. It seems to have been a pagan site which was later converted into a mosque. Perhaps the first mosque was built in Medina? Flamarande (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Apparently the first mosque was the Quba Mosque in Medina. However the current mosque on that site is from the 20th century, as the old one was torn down to make way for the new. --Saddhiyama (talk) 23:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that was presumably the first one, but the oldest one in continuous use is, I think, the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:37, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

This would be one of those places where religious doctrine and the history of architecture diverge; so, for the benefit of those who may be confused, let's note that basically, the Kaaba is considered to have been the first mosque as a matter of doctrine (whatever secular historians or archaeologists may say), while the one in Medina was the first one built by Mohammed or his followers. At least as far as I understand.--Rallette (talk) 06:24, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

separtion of family

does a localcounty government have the right to tell you who can live in your house or property,such as your parent or children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.171.26 (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Where in the world are you asking about? Note also that we are not allowed to give legal advice here, so if this is more than a matter of curiosity, we probably can't help you. --Anonymous, 23:49 UTC, November 12, 2010.

The original poster geolocates to somewhere in the US. The answer to the question is "sometimes". It could be possible for a local prosecutor to obtain a judge's order to remove a child from a home, though I think in most states, the state's Child Protective Services agency would argue this before the judge, rather than the local prosecutor arguing. In turn, most courts use the best interests of the child (according to that article) as the standard of making decisions. As for a local government ordering an adult to eject a parent from the house, I think this would be by means of a restraining order, though I think it would be unusual for a restraining order to be issued by a judge in a situation where one of the two people isn't requesting the order. I suppose a judge could issue a restraining order that forces a parent and (adult) child to stay away from each other (including not living together) if they're both in a violent gang or something, and the judge is attempting to break up the gang. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Note also that you can be charged with "harboring a criminal" even if the criminal you are harboring is a relative. --Jayron32 02:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

There are jurisdictions where the number of people in a residence (house or apartment) is limited by contract, as in a lease. There may also be guidelines of "maximum occupancy" for health purposes even in freehold situations. If there are illegal relationships between family members, incest for example, the law may intervene.There are also frequently restrictions on increasing the size of buildings on a lot in order to accommodate more people, relatives or not, though parents are sometimes excepted. Bielle (talk) 03:50, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

United States Balance of trade

Can it just keep on getting bigger and bigger ansd bigger without any problems? Where does thwe money come from to pay for it? 92.24.183.233 (talk) 23:56, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you may be misunderstanding what a trade deficit is. This is simply the value of stuff that US citizens and companies sell to other countries, minus the value of stuff that US citizens and companies buy from other countries. If that number is negative (which it has been in the US for decades) then you have a trade deficit. If you combine your thinking about every citizen and company in the US into one big blob, then I suppose who "pays for it" is those citizens and companies; but this doesn't mean that the US as a whole actually loses money every year; see the Money creation article. As our balance of trade article states, many economists think a trade deficit is good for the economy. Others disagree. Sorry for the vague answer but there are competing points of view on this topic. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:23, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The money to pay for the trade deficit is lent to the United States by foreigners. When dollars leave the United States to pay for imports and those dollars are not returned to the United States to buy imports (which is what happens as the result of its trade deficit) those dollars typically end up buying U.S. debt, including U.S. government debt and other U.S. securities. As a result, a persistent trade deficit results in a growing foreign debt, as you can see in this article. Can it keep getting bigger and bigger without any problems? Up to a point, yes. Beyond that point, no. Nobody really knows at what point problems begin (or began). Some would argue that part of the cause of the recent (and, some think, ongoing) financial crisis is in fact the imbalance resulting from the U.S. trade deficit and growing indebtedness. This was one of the topics of discussion at the recent 2010 G-20 Seoul summit. Marco polo (talk) 02:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

On the long run a trade deficit is a bad development for a country. The USA has endured thus far because foreign investors keep on investing in the US economy by either buying stocks of US companies, lending money to US firms and banks and by buying US government debt (as the post above already explained). This flow of (foreign) money is VITAL for the US economy. As everthing in the universe this will not continue forever. A possibility is that a new "national economy" promising more or/and safer profits will appear. Then the majority of foreign investors (smelling better profits) will predictably invest their money in the other country. This will diminish the flow of (foreign) money to the USA. Many of the money-lenders (investors who lended their money) will collect their money to invest it in the other country. This just MIGHT diminish the value of the US dollar to a point in which people start to panic creating a run against a plummeting US dollar. Another possiblity is that all this happens, but slowly, safely and without creating a panic. Flamarande (talk) 03:04, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Please take all our posts with a grain of salt. Remember that a couple of decades ago many were predicting that the Japanese economy would buy and dominate all others. It just didn't happen.

What if all countries switched and let Somalia or Haiti mount a huge balance of trade deficit, so that they all bought new cars, imported food, designer clothes, and big screen TV's financed by foreign loans such as presently benefit the US? Why do the various creditor countries find it beneficial to themselves to loan all this money so the US consumers can splurge year after year? What is the catch, or when does the reckoning come due? Edison (talk) 03:18, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

The catch is that all of this is based upon human trust. Human economy needs human trust in order to function properly (remember that humans sometimes behave irrationaly and, worse of all, unpredictably). The foreign investors will invest their money into the USA only as long as they expect/trust that they are going to make a handsome profit. In the second they lose this trust and start to fear that they are going to lose their money they will withdraw/reclaim their money asap (every one of us would do the same). One or two losing this trust is negligable. If the majority of the investors suddenly lost their trust would create panic collapsing the market.

As for why do investors keep investing in the heavily-indebted USA the answer is complicated. First, most are not investing in the 'whole country' per se but in individual companies (especially choosing those which are making profits and are NOT indebted). Other companies are indebted but are creating/developing new products which they plan to sell in huge numbers, generating more than enough profits to pay the loans (it's a gamble: will the product be good enough, or not?). Other companies are indebted and have no way out (and will disappear). In final analysis ALL companies need to sell their products to customers. The problem is that way too many US citizens are increasingly indebted. If/when a large protion the costumers decide to reduce their spending or become unable to get credit the companies will not sell their products in quantities large enough to make profit. This creates a problem. One of the solutions is to simply sell abroad. In order to sell abroad the product needs to be possess a good quality/price balance.

Money-lenders who are buying US government debt either: A) trust that the interest will be paid and that they can recuperate their money. B) are lending their money for other reasons.

As for Somalia and Haiti you have realize that we are not talking about individual companies (Somali telecom companies seem to be profitable). We are talking about hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of companies, banks, etc. In other words most investors will NOT invest their money in Somalia or Haiti because there are simply way too few Somali or Haitian companies, banks, etc make enough profit to be considered valuable/worthwile. Those few that make large amounts of profit probably already have foreign investors behind them.

It's also a matter of political stability which goes hand-in-hand with economic stability. The investor has to trust that his investiment will generate profit. A company needs political stability in order to operate/sell and make profit (unless it sells guns or amunition :). Neither Somalia or Haiti (and so many more) are stable enough to be trustworthy in the eyes of foreign investors. Let's be honest here: Most of us simply would never invest our money in a Somali or Hatian company. Why? Because we do not trust that a company could make any kind of profit in such a shitty country and we don't want to lose our money. Investors basicly think as we do. They might have more information, know more insider tricks, etc but they will invest mostly in companies operating in countries with political stability and a market large enough to generate profit. Flamarande (talk) 04:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

November 13

US Libel Laws and the Truth

It's my understanding that stating facts is an absolute defense against charges of libel/slander in the US. So, if I call Mary Walker a whore (as in, paid money for sex) in the New York Times, she has no grounds for a suit if she is in fact a whore. But suppose I believe Mary Walker to be whore, and call her one in the Times. If Mary Walker is not a whore, does she have a case? It seems odd that libel suits would rest on the state of mind of the defendant. 96.246.58.133 (talk) 03:57, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Libel laws do not depend on the state of mind of the defendants. It doesn't matter what you believe as a person, if you publish something that defames the character of an individual (or sometimes a group), it is your responsibility as the author/publisher to ensure that you are publishing something that has a basis in fact. Calling someone a whore would generally not pass muster in any case (whore is an intentionally derogatory term beyond its implications as a sex worker); calling someone a prostitute would require factual evidence (police arrest records, video tapes, or some other investigative approach that demonstrates the person in question is receiving money for sex). If you don't have solid evidence, and the person can show that your published statement caused personal, social, or financial harm, you're liable.

In fact, I believe that even if the person actually is a prostitute, they can still sue you for calling them one if you don't have sufficient evidence. They might even be able to get you for loss of income, which would be ironic. --Ludwigs2 04:11, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Who introduced the horse in India?

What is current accepted answer to this question. What is the mainstream view about the discovery of horse remains in Surkotada and Hallur? 180.149.48.246 (talk) 04:42, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Jackson / Rosas

Andrew Jackson's enemies generally characterized him as an uncouth tyrant. But was he ever explicitly compared to Juan Manuel de Rosas, his Argentine countarpart? The two seem quite similar in my mind. They were contemporaries, both had a rural base of support, both were military men, both had despotic tendencies, and both served as bugbears for centralist, liberal movements in their respective countries. Were comparisons drawn between them, either in the U.S. or in Argentina? LANTZY^TALK 04:54, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

At the time Argentine-American relations seem to be mainly focused on a dispute over the Falkland Islands; Argentina claimed that American warships had destroyed Luis Vernet's settlement in retaliation for Vernet's seizure of seal-hunting ships in a dispute over fishing rights. For more than a decade after this, "the United States chose to ignore the Argentine Republic. After the withdrawal of Francis Baylies in 1832, the Jackson administration waited two years even to replace George W. Slacum, the refugee consul. Three successors, appointed to Buenos Aires in 1834, 1836, and 1837, retrieved identical admonitions not to exercise 'any functions of diplomatic character.'" (p. 121, Harold F. Peterson, Argentina and the United States, 1810-1960). You may also want to look at Argentina and the United States: an alliance contained (David Sheinin).

difference between a king and a bully

what is the difference between a king and a bully? Why is the bully hated so much more than the king? --95.88.20.6 (talk) 07:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)