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26 November 2010

User talk:GiacomoReturned/User:Demiurge1000/Second enquiry into the Rlevse affair

User talk:GiacomoReturned/User:Demiurge1000/Second enquiry into the Rlevse affair (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Procedural.Several users have objected to the close at deleting admin's talk page. See reasoning below. -Atmoz (talk) 23:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And those users all know where this page is. Stop with the "procedural" nominations - if you yourself think it should be overturned, nominate it. Otherwise all you are doing is rubbernecking. A talk page discussion may have resolved this, and there is no "procedure" that means it has to be nominated by you or anyone else. This isn't helpful.--Scott Mac 00:34, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete: Overhwelming consensus was to keep, if not speedy keep.  Giacomo  23:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and restore. No consensus for deletion is present in the MfD, indeed rather the reverse. And the rationales given for deleting in the face of a keep consensus are not convincing. The material is attributed sufficiently for license purposes and is not an attack page in the G10 sense. For the record I don't like it and would rather Giano slap a G7 notice at the top, but that is not a rationale to delete given the lack of consensus to do so. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn, restore and ignore. the page is in my opinion both useless and drama-inducing. However, you don't fight Giano's conspiracy theories by conspiring to silence them. Hiding things in dark corners simply leads to more drama. Best to shine a light and demonstrate that there are no monsters under the bed (see also WP:TINC) Those genuinely wishing to reduce drama ought to have ignored this page. Sending it to MFD simply added to the drama and the impression of a desire to silence the critics, closing that MFD against consensus and with a rationale that looked like a vote is more of the same. Now, undelete this and move on. Poor close.--Scott Mac 00:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was the deleted page not a duplicate of User talk:Demiurge1000/Second enquiry into the Rlevse affair? If so, why can't that page be used and linked to instead of a copy? Thank you, -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think that those commenting above are aware it's merely a copy. I added a notice at the top to read my talk page in the interest of clarity. I hope it helps. - jc37 04:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)- jc37 04:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I at least was aware that it was a copy, though not that the original had been restored. However, looking at the log I see that the restoration is specifically for a limited period. No speedy criterion that would justify ignoring the consensus of the MfD applies and so my Overturn recommendation stands. Of course, if the original is kept then the copy can simply redirect (or even transclude) it but if the original is to be deleted now or in the future, then I don't see any pressing reason to prevent Giano from keeping a copy. Eluchil404 (talk) 22:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, for two reasons:
    The page was a duplicate of a talk page of a page which was deleted at MfD. It is, therefore, a "sufficiently identical and unimproved copy, having any title, of a page deleted via a deletion discussion" and falls under CSD G4. It simply does not make sense to delete the original and keep the copy.
    As for the consensus of the discussion ... well, there was a numerical majority in favor of keeping the page (5.5 to 3), but consensus is not just a vote-count. To be honest, I think that a good case for keeping was not made. Except for the comment by SmokeyJoe, who suggested keeping or redirecting (technically, neither one is necessary for a duplicate page), the rest of the "keep" comments were: sarcasm(?) by GiacomoReturned, an assertion of harmlessness by GoodDay, and three comments (by Jenks24, Scott MacDonald, and Collect) that seemed to be motivated more by a fear of drama and disruption in response to deletion than any desire to actually retain the page.
    -- Black Falcon (talk) 06:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn I don't see a consensus here, particularly in light of the arguments of Jenks24, Scott MacDonald, and Collect. As for G10, there is a difference between an attack page and political shit-stirring, the latter being regrettable but not deletable.--Mkativerata (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a clear consensus even here to overturn, what are you so afraid of?  Giacomo  10:09, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is all too weird. I admit to being confused at the MfD. I still don't understand why this copy was, or would have been, created. Why are we discussing this MfD, and not the one which this page was a copy of? Why is this page undeleted, but not the one we are discussing (even if they are identical? I would like to know more about the Rlevse departure, and while the page in question doesn't explain anything to me, I am sure that deletion is not the way to clarification. If there is a place with an explanation of the Rlevse affair, I still think that a redirect would be helpful. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and restore. Deleting this kind of thing isn't very clever. All it does is drive the drama offwiki. Let Giano have his say and his talkpages, and pay him as much or as little attention as you want. The fact that it's a duplicate of another talk page is entirely irrelevant because this isn't encyclopaedic content. It's to do with Wikipedia's governance and rules. And that's all DRV should have to say about it because it doesn't matter whether Giano's reasons for wanting a copy of this page in his userspace are valid or not. All that matters is that a good faith user thinks there's a valid reason.

    I don't agree with Giano's reasons for keeping this page but you won't persuade someone to think differently by purging his userspace.—S Marshall T/C 11:24, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    So, to be clear (and this is a sincere question) - Fear of potential drama is a valid reason to not do what we would normally do? How is that not a case of: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"? (quoted from Animal Farm) - Are we really setting up a situation where being an editor who others see as causing drama, gives a carte blanche pass for that editor to do whatever they want, regardless of the policies in place? I find that difficult to believe, and really difficult to endorse as a wikiphilosophy. - jc37 19:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No we are talking of an editor who knows Wikipedia policy inside out, and how to apply it better than most Admins. The page was created becase I suspected the original would be deleted to spare two Arbs' blushes (which it was - and will be again). Now be a good chap and restore the page before you begin to look even more foolish and we have to take this matter elsewhere.  Giacomo  20:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Wait a minute. What?
    "The page was created becase I suspected the original would be deleted..." - how is that not an intent to game the system? And following up on that, doesn't that become a WP:POINT situation, confirmed by everything that has thus followed?...
    As for "...spare[ing] two Arbs' blushes" - Shrugs, not my intent, and honestly, you would have to work VERY hard twisting fact in order to even TRY to suggest that I am anything but an advocate for transparency. See my current concerns at this year's arb election, for just one recent example.
    From your tone, I might guess that this may come as a shock to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you, Giacamo. People can actually take neutral actions merely for reasons related to policy and practice.
    I'm sincerely sorry for you that (as you seem to indicate) you feel otherwise. - jc37 20:59, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No, fear of potential drama isn't a valid reason to avoid doing what you'd normally do. But if you'd normally delete material out of someone's userspace when that user has a good faith belief that it relates to Wikipedia's governance, then the problem isn't with the user.

    First, matters relating to Wikipedia's governance absolutely do belong on Wikipedia. They do not belong offwiki. Deleting people's userspace won't stop the discussion, it'll just drive it elsewhere, to nobody's benefit.

    Second, Giano does have latitude in these things. The purpose of everything that isn't mainspace is to support the people who write the encyclopaedia and like it or not, writing the encyclopaedia is exactly what Giano does. And that absolutely does entitle Giano to latitude and tolerance, because Wikipedia without Giano would be Wikipedia with less drama—but also Wikipedia with a great deal less content. And encyclopaedic content is what we're here to provide. Kindly treat those who produce it with great respect.

    The emerging consensus at this DRV is that we need to put up with this page. Good faith users need to discuss Rlevse's various errors and mistakes because it's a serious issue and it ought to affect how we choose our most trusted users in the future. We need to let the discussion flow naturally.—S Marshall T/C 20:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    We typically give more latitude in userspace to editors. I don't disagree. But this is about a closure of an MfD. As I'm fairly sure you know, DRV isn't XFD-2. So I'm not sure how your comments apply to this discussion. (Though I have little doubt you'll clarify shortly : ) - jc37 21:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you fit to be an admin, you are starting to seem otherwise? The page needs restoring, now go and get on with it! Do as you are told and we shall say mo more!  Giacomo  21:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, Jc37, there are several possible lines of argument at DRV. The most common one is that the closer failed to close in accordance with the consensus, but there are others. Sometimes, one can also reasonably argue that the !votes were not in accordance with policy, or that the closer failed to weigh the !votes correctly. What this boils down to is the argument that whether or not the closure was in accordance with the consensus, the consensus itself was wrong in some important respect. DRV does consider these instances, even where it means that to a certain extent it's necessary to re-argue the XfD.

    In this case, my position is that to whatever extent that there was a consensus to delete—a matter that other users have already addressed adequately—the arguments supporting that consensus were untenable in the light of the facts.

    Finally, my position is that the purpose of DRV is to make Wikipedia a better place. DRV contributors have wide latitude to make any analysis or engage in any discussion that serves that end.—S Marshall T/C 22:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    That was actually a nice summary of DRV (in my opinion at least).
    Thank you for clarifying.
    Let me ask this...
    My assessment as this being G10, is the fact that this is rather clearly intended to be "disparaging". (Based upon the word disparage specifically being used under G10 and CSD.)
    So since you say there is no policy reason for the deletion, is your position a.) that the pages in question were not intended to be disparaging (or for that matter, you do not see the pages themselves as disparaging). And therefore you feel that G10 didn't apply for that reason. Or b.) Is your position that you feel that "disparage" should not be part of the G10 criteria, and should instead only use the term "attack". And is it the possible semantic difference between "disparage" and "attack" which may be causing a confusion here? (and c.) something else, could be possible too, of course : ) - jc37 00:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    G10 reads "Pages that disparage or threaten their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose." I think the argument here is that the page DID serve another purpose - that is to allow a debate of the issues by troubles users. Whether it did that well? ymmv.--Scott Mac 00:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you'd be hard pressed to call that a civil debate on issues... - jc37 07:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's true that there's an extent to which this page disparages Rlevse. And I think it's true that there's an extent to which it meets the criteria for G10. But there's always a judgment call to be made: just because something can be made to fit a speedy deletion criterion, does that mean the speedy deletion should automatically happen? In this case there are shades of grey.

    First, those who're in high office can expect a degree of scrutiny, and some of that scrutiny may be hostile. It goes with the territory. In accepting a post as arbitrator, Rlevse was also accepting that he would be held to high standards and open to criticism. The fact that he's resigned and RTVed doesn't entitle him to escape a close examination of what he said and did while in post.

    Second, there's a serious discussion to be had about copyright on Wikipedia and Rlevse is an excellent example of why. It would be arguable that Rlevse has broken the law. We take copyright seriously and we need to take it more seriously, and discussions about this need to be encouraged. Not censored.

    Third, Wikipedia has a culture of openness that it's important to respect. Giano has good faith suspicions about what's gone on and attempts to delete the content he's examining justifies Giano's suspicions. In other words, there's an extent to which deleting the page makes Giano look as if he's in the right—it has exactly the opposite effect to the one intended.—S Marshall T/C 00:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, actually, based upon the comments in the discussions, the disparagement of the page was towards Giacomo. The intent, as described, was "making fun of" his making User:GiacomoReturned/Enquiry into the Rlevse Affair; which was (presumably) "tracking" events that he seemed to feel were important in relation to Rlevse.
    So most of your comments in this latest post (I believe) aren't directly relevant.
    But let's pretend that what you were suggesting was the case. Specifically: "In other words, there's an extent to which deleting the page makes Giano look as if he's in the right" - I simply shouldn't care. And in my opinion, neither should you or anyone. At least as far as whether a speedy criteria applies or not. How many pages are speedied? And if the person who created the page were to cry out that:"this is a conspiracy against me and mine" (Or here's a "fun" example from other recent events: "This is an attempt to white wash opposition to (or support of) Climate Change"). Do you honestly suggest that such pages which would normally meet a speedy criteria should be retained/restored regardless, based upon that? I really don't believe that you would suggest that under such circumstances. So why should this be any different?
    I reiterate: fear of on-wiki drama should not be a factor in deciding.
    But anyway, as noted, this is about it being intended to disparage Giacomo. And obviously he considers it so, else he wouldn't want it kept "visible" for "evidence".
    So, with all that in mind, again I ask: Why should this be any different than any other page which disparages? Why do you feel that this (I'm referring to the original page, and which would also apply to the copy) does not meet speedy deletion G10? - jc37 07:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's not logically tenable to G10 a page for disparaging Giano, when Giano vocally wants to retain it. The only rational basis for a G10 is that it disparages someone who doesn't want it kept.—S Marshall T/C 11:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    We are concerned about what the target of a page feels about the page when dealing with BLP concerns. This isn't about BLP concerns. And I still have not seen any argument which suggests that the page is not disparagement. And that was true in the two MfD discussions, and it's true here. Rather than looking at bolded votes, I'm looking at what is actually being said.
    And you even suggest that the page is somewhat disparaging to Rlevse.
    A page which is designed to directly "make fun of" another specific Wikipedian, which is intentionally disparaging. That's a G10.
    According to WP:NPA: "These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done" (Bolding mine, the italics are on the page.)
    It's just contrary to what we are supposed to be attempting to achieve here.
    And then when looking at:
    Statement of principles
    Simplified ruleset
    The orange pillar at Wikipedia:Five_pillars
    and even looking at #4 here: meta:Founding_principles.
    To use your term, I think your position that this is appropriate (or even that it's merely not contrary to existing policy) is just not logically tenable. - jc37 17:07, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm confused. I thought it was your position that Giano was the target of the disparagement?—S Marshall T/C 20:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. I was merely noting that you (and for that matter, the nominator of both MfDs) also felt that the page was disparaging, though you each suggested it was disparaging towards Rlevse. So that still makes it disparaging to a specific individual. Sorry for not being clearer. - jc37 20:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    No, no need to apologise, that's okay. What I said about disparagement of Rlevse was that there was "an extent to which" it was taking place, but then I explained the reasons why I didn't think that trumped Giano's wish to have this page in his userspace. You came back and said that in your view, the disparagement was towards Giano. I said that it didn't make sense to me to delete material out of Giano's userspace, that Giano wanted to keep, because it was disparaging of Giano. And I think that's where we are with G10, aren't we?

    You've now introduced a question about whether the page was appropriate in view of the five pillars and Jimbo's statement of principles, and I understand that argument but disagree with it. This is a userspace page that's (at least tangentially) relevant to Wikipedia's governance and copyright on Wikipedia. Such material strikes me as reasonable to keep in userspace.—S Marshall T/C 22:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    For the first part, let's be clear: I was and am talking about the original. The closure was based upon both discussions, applying comments from both to the question of whether the original should be kept. (Forcing people to copy/paste comments which are relevant to both discussions, or at least not acknowledging that comments from both discussions applied to the question seems to me to fly in the face of attempting to discern a true consensus. Do you disagree?) And so by extension, the copy should be deleted if the original was. That is to say, if the content of the original is G10, then any direct copy of the original would also be G10. (one of the fundamentals behind G4.)
    And so, Giacomo keeping a copy of the original in his userspace, because he wants it as evidence- obviously because he feels it's disparaging - only helps confirm the application of G10 to the original. And again, if the original goes, so too should the copy.
    And by the way, I personally think this DRV would have been more appropriate to be about the original, rather than questioning whether the copy of a deleted page should exist. (Which merely makes it a G4, as Black Falcon notes.)
    And I wasn't introducing something new (AFAIK), I was re-affirming the policy behind G10, as well as affirming the applicability of G10 in this case - as a direct response to your suggestion that there was no policy reason to delete. Which, to me is simply incorrect. One may argue whether "disparagement through humour" may be allowable in userspace, I suppose, or may argue whether the page in question was indeed disparaging. But I find it ridiculous (sorry again) to suggest that G10 is not policy, and to suggest that "disparaging" is not a part of G10, when it states that clearly. But if you want to argue whether disparagement should be included in G10, I suggest an RfC on the matter at the VP or CSD.
    But if you agree that a.) disparagement is a part of the G10 criteria and b.) that the page was disparaging of one or more individuals (regardless of how it was being done), then I would presume that you would endorse the deletion, under G10. To do otherwise would seem to be directly contrary to every policy and guideline we have on civility/NPA. - jc37 22:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jc37, this is now entering the realms of the ridiculous, there was an overwhelming consensus to keep this page at AFD. Here, there is an overwhelming consensus to restore it. It seems to me that you are now being obstructive. Just restore the page please.  Giacomo  22:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that disparagement is part of the G10 criteria and I agree that there's an extent to which this page was disparaging of Rlevse but I don't endorse the deletion. There are times when someone's so senior and their actions are so unfortunate that it becomes acceptable to allow mildly critical or disparaging material; see Essjay controversy for an example of this that's survived in the mainspace. I would not endorse a G10 deletion of Essjay-related material and to my mind, the same applies to Rlevse.—S Marshall T/C 00:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    So to make certain I understand your perspective: You agree that disparagement is part of G10, and that G10 is policy and is appropriate in most cases. But that, because you see this as being in relation to recent events around Rlevse, this should be considered an extraordinary situation? And therefore, essentially, you feel G10 doesn't apply per WP:IAR? - jc37 02:23, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I honestly don't think it's ever policy that an administrator has to perform a speedy deletion, whether it's under G10 or any other criterion. All kinds of speedy deletion were originally specific applications of IAR. Nor do I agree that G10 is "appropriate in most cases". My position is that where a speedy deletion criterion applies, the administrator must then make a judgment call about whether, in view of all the circumstances, it's appropriate to actually press the "delete" button—in other words, the deleter must have made a positive decision to delete. The closer is then accountable to DRV for that decision. DRV will not necessarily just assess whether the closer strictly applied policy; a judgment call has been made and DRV contributors may take into account a wide range of factors. This is what I'm doing.

    I've explained why, although you have an arguable case based on strict application of one particular policy, I believe that the correct judgment call in the circumstances would be not to delete the page. (Meanwhile, others have been explaining why the deletion wasn't in accordance with the consensus either. I haven't addressed that because the matter is well covered already.)

    Quite aside from these things, I also think the circumstances around Rlevse are exceptional and will need to be considered with the absolute maximum of transparency. Our position on copyright violations is as vulnerable as our position on BLPs was after the Siegenthaler incident and blindly following the letter of the rules is inappropriate in the circumstances. I think it's quite possible that there will need to be some rule-ignoring in order to get a fully transparent discussion going.—S Marshall T/C 10:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn no consensus to delete at MfD. no policy-based reason to delete. -Atmoz (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sad overturn I'd have !voted to delete had I known of it, but I don't think it meets speedy guidelines and the !vote was clearly in support of keeping. Bah. Hobit (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with building an encyclopaedia. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Issues of policy raised by the closing administrator were already considered in the discussion and the consensus at AfD was for retention. There is no evidence that G8 speedy deletion is justified here. Alansohn (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • overturn Essentially per Scott Mac's remarks. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn as there was no consensus to delete. GoodDay (talk) 23:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OneSavings (closed)

ItsLassieTime deletions

ItsLassieTime deletions (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

Requesting review of one's own deletions here as there seem to be some (belligerent) opposition to them, as one went as far to recreate himself. On 17 November 2010, I deleted about 120 files and 39 articles that were created by Susanne2009NYC (talk · contribs), who was blocked as a sock puppet of banned user ItsLassieTime (talk · contribs). Persuant to the banning policy and the speedy deletion policy, I deleted the following files and articles:

deleted files
articles deleted

Also see the following previous discussions pertaining articles created by socks of ItsLassieTime:

Keep in mind, even if the articles are restored, they would still be subject to scrutiny under creator copyright investigations as this user was discovered to have had a long history of plagiarism; see Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/ItsLassieTime. Moreover, if these are to be restored, I will be proposing an unblock and unban of ItsLassieTime, as the ban and blocks would be virtually worthless. –MuZemike 03:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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