Talk:Irony

Not a huge deal but...

Truman wasn't breaking the forth wall. Realizing your the subject of a secret reality show is not the same as a character acknowledging the fact that they are a fictional character in a story or show or movie or whatever. I also don't see how the situation is ironic, i could be wrong about that one though (so many definitions) I can accept that irony is changed because a bunch of hipsters didn't feel like looking it up, but I'm not letting them take "forth wall" too. Maybe I'll let it slide if we can all agree to return "literally" to meaning...you know...literally. No more "He literally bit his head off for it"

Give an example of Irony:

Oil caused global warming is raising hopes of Greenlanders who see the ice retreating from their shores as a chance for financial betterment by creating opportunities to drill for offshore oil. ~ Betaclamp (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

What is ironic about this situation? I would think it would only be ironic if the Greenlanders worked hard to stop global warming, thinking it would harm them, only to find in the end that it benefited them.70.179.92.117 (talk) 04:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Photo illustrations

The first photo and its caption don't seem appropriate. The caption mentions a 'caustic protest' sign. I don't see how it is either caustic or a protest. Here is the OED 2d ed on the relevant sense intended here:

fig. That makes the mind to smart: said of language, wit, humour, and, by extension, of persons; sharp, bitter, cutting, biting, sarcastic.

How does 'I can't afford an actual sign' 'make the mind smart'? It doesn't seem to satisfy any aspect of the definition. As for the sign itself, how is that ironic? It seems more like something out of Magritte. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sneedy (talk • contribs) 12:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• • You're right. The picture should be removed. But I can't think of anything that would serve as a replacement. The article is about an abstract concept. How would you illustrate that with a picture? Wahrmund (talk) 20:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.141.76 (talk) 07:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Sneedy: I don't know what you were looking at for that quotation, but it's not the OED. Where does it say "makes the mind to smart" or anything like it? Myrvin (talk) 13:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the "I can't afford an actual sign" sign is lacking in irony. One reason is: The sign looks hand-made, so it is quite possible that the sign-carrier really cannot afford an "actual" (professionally produced) sign. A more ironic sign might be "Down with Signs," or maybe "Nobody Ever Reads Signs," or "I am not carrying a sign."70.179.92.117 (talk) 04:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Post-Irony -- Where did it go?

Looking at the history I didn't see where this was removed. I think it's especially important now to have the ACTUAL definition of what post-irony is here on wikipedia, as there are a lot of completely incorrect definitions running around. People are getting the wrong idea, being led to believe that post-irony refers to a timeline of sorts, a state of mind without irony intead of what post-irony actually is.

This used to be on the page:

“a technique that uses the juxtaposition of empty symbolism and loaded evocations to create humor whose roots lie not so much in the mocking of any one ideology proper so much as in mocking the stupidity that lies at the roots of the propagation of modern ideologies.”

I have no edit history nor am I an expert so I'm not going to make the change, but I'm surprised it's been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.211.67.204 (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Me too, though it seems to be so intellectually powerful and post-modern that I cannot understand it. Doubtless other smarter people will be able, to, though, so I have no objection if you'd like to create another article about it, perhaps a stub which can later be expanded to full article length, employing just this kind of language. As a modern concept, it needs propagation, and you appear just the person to do it. Best, SBHarris 04:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Opening Too Broad?

Does anyone agree that the opening paragraph defines irony too broadly, and might be generally off the mark? To define irony as (any) "discordance or incongruity" seems to be going too far. Also, what is to be made of the sentence "This sentence is not ironic."? Where is the discordance or incongruity (or irony) in that sentence? I'm thinking the sentence would only be ironic if it meant something contrary to what the words would indicate, but it doesn't.70.179.92.117 (talk) 04:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

That sentence has been deleted as I agree with you. However, it can always be salvaged in our planned article on Post irony, where we can always say: "This sentence is not post-ironic."

As for the rest of the paragraph, I think that irony is about communication where the sharpening of truth is via constructing or pointing out a naturally occuring contrast between reality and ideality. I think it either has to be done deliberately, or else some "found irony" has to be pointed out deliberately. Things aren't ironic in and of themselves. Irony is like art: there's something about the presentation to somebody else in an attempt to make them understand something, that is critical. Or course, I don't have an immediate reference for this. But it fits everything else that is in the article, so perhaps our editors will agree that it's an improvment. Otherwise, feel free to change it back, and try something else. Irony is not easy to define. And post irony is even worse, but (thankfully) THAT task has been taken up by others who are eager to make sure we all understand it. I have modified that page in the meantime to inform readers that post irony is irony that has to do with the mail. WP:SOFIXIT. SBHarris 04:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this is an improvement. I'm going to try to elaborate on it a bit further.70.179.92.117 (talk) 17:58, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Better Definitions and Examples

I think we need better definitions for cosmic and historical irony, and better examples all around. I propose:

Cosmic irony: A form of situational irony wherein the situation is created by “fate” rather than by other specific actors. Example: A fireman retires after 35 years to a peaceful mountain community, but lightning starts a forest fire that threatens the community and involves the fireman in the greatest firefighting challenges of his life.

Historical irony: A form of situational irony wherein intentions in the past are the opposite of the later realities. Historical ironies play out over long periods of time, so that the particular individuals involved in the beginning are not necessarily involved at the end. Historical ironies focus not on individual actors, but institutional or national actors over an extended period of time.

I think the New York Times example is a good example of historical irony. The World War I example is OK, but would be better if it were emphasized that World War I (most specifically in its terms for peace) has come to be seen as hardly the War to End All Wars, but as actually a major cause of World War II. The Vietnam War example is also OK, but should be worded to emphasize that attempts to thwart imperialism (via the Viet Minh) are now seen to have led to imperialism (by the Viet Minh).

The examples:

• "Stay Awake" sung by Mary Poppins to magically put children to sleep.

• Fat Joe saying "it's amazing that you need a license to drive a car, but anyone (you) can procreate."

should be labeled to indicate what they are supposed to be illustrating, presumably an irony that is not sarcastic, and a sarcasm that is not ironic.

O. Henry’s Gifts of the Magi is a situational irony, but not a cosmic irony, because the irony is created by the specific actions of the main characters, not by an external “fate.”

The story of Krishna is not an irony at all. Kamsa’s attempt to thwart the prophecy, though the attempt failed, did not cause the prophecy to be fulfilled. Every failed attempt is not an irony. It’s also not a “self-fulfilling prophecy,” but more an example of “inexorable fate.” Same goes for Kronos and Perseus. They attempted to avoid their fate and failed, but it was not their attempt that caused them to fail, so their stories are not ironic (and the prophecies were not self-fulfilling). The story of Oedipus has irony, but not in the way expressed in the article. Oedipus, hearing the prophesy he would kill his father and marry his mother, deliberately leaves home (thinking his adoptive parents are his real parents) in order to thwart the prophecy, and only because of this does he meet (and kill/marry) his real parents, fulfilling the prophecy. So his situation is ironic (and his prophecy is self-fulfilling, in that if he hadn’t heard the prophecy, it (probably) would not have come true).

The “In History” examples of Irony of Fate (Dangerous “toy safety” buttons, cane toads to Australia, kudzu) are (imho) not good examples of “cosmic” irony. I don’t see in any of them an overriding stroke of “fate.” They are all examples of people making simple mistakes, but not the intercession of any highly-improbable “fate.” These could all be considered situational ironies, but I don’t think they rise to the level of “cosmic.”70.179.92.117 (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Thinking up examples is all very well; but you need someone to cite who says that such and such IS an example of x-irony. Otherwise it's just your own opinion. This article suffers quite a lot from that. Myrvin (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Irony as infinite, absolute negativity

I don't think that this section has its argument right. According to this book:

Kierkegaard Studies Yearbook 2009: Kierkegaard's Concept of Irony By Niels Jorgen Cappelorn, Hermann Deuser, K. Brian Söderquist Found here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=InItJiOvaJ8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=infinite%20absolute&f=false

It is Schlegel's Romantic irony that K and de Mann say is "infinite absolute negativity" - whatever that means. Is there a quote that says that Schlegel agreed? We need a citation for Kierkegaard - perhaps the one I have here (because the wording is similar to the text in the section); or his "The Concept of Irony". And we need a correct formation of the argument. I do not know that this refers to all literary irony or only Schlegel's. Myrvin (talk) 08:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The phrase itself would appear to be originally from Hegel Lectures on Fine Art - but he only used it once. Myrvin (talk) 10:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Dramatic Irony

As a point of discussion, would it be fair to understand "Dramatic Irony" as a situation in which the reader knows that a character is doing or saying something ironic, but the character him or herself does not?--MonkeyPundit (talk) 13:48, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

re: Better Definitions and Examples

I'm an English teacher, and this is the definition of irony that I give to my students:

"A situation or a choice of words in which the truth is the opposite of what you expect".

Dramatic irony, in this case, I define as:

"A situation or a choice of words in which the truth is the opposite of what a character expects".

The example I use to illustrate irony is a hypothetical situation in which The Human Torch freezes to death.

I also use hypothetical situations involving The Human Torch to illustrate common misconceptions of what irony is:

• If The Human Torch burns to death, that's not ironic; its coincidental. The Human Torch is a flame. You expect him to be aflame.
• If The Human Torch gets killed by a stray asteroid, that's not ironic; its improbable. As much as you don't expect The Human Torch to get hit by a stray asteroid, you don't inherently expect him not to, either.
• If The Human Torch gets killed by a stray asteroid, that's not ironic; its improbable. As much as you don't expect The Human Torch to get hit by a stray asteroid, you don't inherently expect him not to, either.
• If The Human Torch gets killed by a stray bullet while flying over a war zone, that's not ironic; its unfortunate. As much as you don't expect The Human Torch to be killed by a stray bullet, such an event isn't entirely improbable given that he's in a war zone, and you don't inherently expect him not to, either.
• If The Human Torch scolds Hollywood stuntmen for being on fire in movies, that's not ironic; its hypocritical.\

--MonkeyPundit (talk) 14:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you have come late to this, but some of us have spent many happy hours arguing about it. The discussion has now been archived. I was an advocate of your definition of irony, but I came to the view that it is perhaps too narrow. There are versions of irony that are not exactly the opposite of what is meant. I think it is the most common though. I like your counter examples for what some think of as dramatic irony; it's a pity you do not give a few examples of what you consider to be actual dramatic irony for poor old Torchy. Myrvin (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Addendum to "Human Torch" illustration of concept of Irony; now includes dramatic irony

Good point, Myrvin; I'll add that below:

• An example of a dramatic irony (involving The Human Torch) might be if he asserts that he will never have to worry about freezing, but doesn't know (unlike the reader/audience) that a villain with an ice-gun that can overpower his flames is en route to shoot him.

Such a situation might actually be dually ironic, not only because the aforementioned possible fate is the opposite of what a reader expects (for reasons mentioned above), but also because it's the opposite of what The Human Torch himself expects.

Such a situation is similar to The Cask of Amontillado because Fortunato's fate is the opposite of what he expects, and his name implies the opposite of what the ideas that the reader would expect to attribute to the name Fortunato.--MonkeyPundit (talk) 22:46, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Irony and the semantics of the word "opposite"

While I agree that some understandings of irony doesn't necessarily involve something that's universally agreed to be a direct opposite, I think this boils down to a semantic discussion of the word "opposite".

For example, Steve Irwin's death would probably be considered ironic if your understanding of "opposite" allowed you to think of a Stingray (being comparatively small and diminutive) as being the opposite of a Crocodile (large and imposing).

If, however, your understanding of the word "opposite" doesn't allow you to think of a fish being the opposite of a reptile, then Steve Irwin's death is simply unfortunate.