Talk:7.92×57mm Mauser

Derivative Cartridges?

I wonder if something should be mentioned about the derivative cartridges made from this one. Examples: 9x57mm, 10x57mm, 10.5x57mm, et al.

COMMENT: It would be helpful is this article depicted both the SAAMI and CIP drawings of this cartridge. They are not identical. Also, the drawing dates should be included. These sporting arms standards (SAAMI & CIP) have been revised over time. Since this cartridge was originally developed for military purposes, original dated milspec cartridge drawings should be included as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.217.228.118 (talk) 06:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

REPLY: SAAMI drawings are copyrighted. RCBS went to the lengths of hiring their own draftsman to recreate SAAMI drawings in their reloading manual, even though they are a SAAMI member. Don't know about CIP. HangFire (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Re derivatives - it would be fine to have a section with them all in it. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 22:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

"German origin"

Just a little annotation: The German flag ist black-red-gold not black-white-gold as shown in this article. user: tabalooga (German Wikipedia) 2th Oct 2010 9:37 CEST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.84.193 (talk) 07:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

As you should know from Geschichtsunterricht, the German Flag from 1888, when this cartridge was created, was black-white-red (black-white from Prussia, red for the Hansestädte). --Dingo (talk) 12:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

"Citation needed" - Tags

Removed two Template:cn-Tags by GraemeLeggett. Reasons:

Sometimes, the cartridge is called 7.92x57mm IS; this, however, seems to be a misnomer as no sources can be traced to Germany.

That there are an awful lot of references to the 8x57 JS cartridge as "7.92" (or other 8mil cartridges, like 8x33 Polte etc.) seems to be above any doubt.

I can, however, not provide proof that "no sources can be traced to Germany", and that's also not how it works.

I know of no sources in pre-war Germany that call the 8mil "7.92", and the C.I.P. dimensions do not include 7.92 mm (0.312 in) anywhere. Sources calling the cartridge "7.92" until now all have proved to be translations from US literature, quotations of US literature, or rip-offs of US literature. Neither C.I.P. nor SAAMI know of "7.92" as an official designation.

No one must provide quotations that show that there are NO sources calling something this-or-that. That's neigh impossible. One must provide, however, proof that there ARE sources calling something this-or-that. No such proof was found (and believe me, I did search) that 8x57JS was EVER called "7.92" in Germany w/o above exceptions in any context. Prove me wrong, and I am VERY MUCH oblieged, as it is a great mystery to me where the frack this "7.92" comes from.

So, this is no viable place for a "Citation needed"-Tag. A place where somebody explained where the 7.92 came from would be; and a good source for that would solve a real mystery.

The 8x57mm ("8 mm Mauser") and 7x57mm ("7 mm Mauser") cartridges are not interchangeable; attempts to do so may cause damage or potential injury.

Please reread the paragraph; it is trivial. Of course, two calibres that differ in one whole millimetre are not interchangeable. No proof needed there. I am a little bit confused that there had to be any mention of that. 8x57JS is also not interchangeable with 8x68S, 8x64 Brenneke, 7x64 Brenneke, or 9(x19) Parabellum, for that matter. --Dingo (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

This article was hit by a bot that clearly is not able to see what images and drawings show and using further common sense like looking at the mentioned bibliography. A main problem with the article however is that it deals with 4 different cartridges (the 8 x57 I(R) and 8 x57 I(R)S) according to CIP. CIP rules the origin country of these cartridges now and since their rulings have the force of law in CIP countries it is futile to complain on what CIP rules. Amongst hunters the I(R)S variants are still common and an excellent chambering choice for relatively short barreled hunting rifles. If we would follow the Wikipedia cartridge nomenclature system, which I found out not easy to change, the article should be named 8x57mm. The 4 cartridge variants can be explained in the text.--Francis Flinch (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

That was not a bot, that was an editor (perhaps being a bit heavy-handed with the tagging - opinions may differ) noting problems with the referencing on this article. The bot follows up by dating the taggings. It is still a requirement that statements are attributed to a source, else we do not know whether they are verifiable or not. It is not sufficient to say "look at the source list" facts should be attributed to the sources (and page numbers are important here) so that they can be checked. GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:26, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, but the editor should start to tag the .30-06 Springfield and many other Wikipedia ammunition articles likewise. They are generally not much better/comfortable referenced.--Francis Flinch (talk) 18:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

They may choose to do so, and then again they may not. Equally if you feel that an article needs its shortcoings flagged up then you can do, or not as you wish. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry. This cn-orgy is a little bit excessive.

Also rimmed 8x57mm IR and 8x57mm IRS variants were developed for break barrel type rifles and combination guns.citation needed

Beside the 8x57mm IS rifle cartridge also a rimmed version for break-action rifles exist.[citation needed] The rimmed 8x57mm IRS variant is offered as a chambering option in European break-action rifles.[citation needed]

This is so trivial, look at ANY European reloading manual. What should be cited? That there ARE 8x57 IR and 8x57 IRS? Or that flanged cartridges are developed for break-action rifles? Both is trivial and can be confirmed by the search engine of your least mistrust.

The mainly European arms standards body Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives ("Permanent International Commission for portable firearms testing") - an organisation for standards in ammuntion for civilian use - currently designates two 8 mm cartridges of 57 mm case length.[citation needed]

Look at the C.I.P. catalogue. Trivial.

Sometimes, the cartridge is called 7.92x57mm IS; this, however, seems to be a misnomer as no sources can be traced to Germany.[citation needed]

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for responding to my remarks above. <sarcasm off> And HOW should that be cited? "It is not in the Bible. It is not in German military instruction books ("Patrone 7.9"). It is not in Götz, Die deutschen Militärgewehre und Maschinenpistolen 1870-1945. It is not in "Harry Potter". It is not in..."?!? You find a source, and delete the sentence. You find none, and the sentence is viable.

Please, be reasonable with the cn-tags. --Dingo (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

In order of importance as I perceive it.

• Sometimes the cartridge....misnomer...no sources..." - this sentence makes a statement that relies upon absence of evidence to make an assertion. Now it may be that this sentence came from a source that says it is a misnomer and that the source of that misnomer is unknown but otherwise it is a potential synthesis. Your statement "You find a source, and delete the sentence. You find none, and the sentence is viable." reverses a stated policy of Wikipedia (Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence).

Other cites - again the purpose of citing sources is for Verifiablity. It may be trivial to an editor in the know to be able to look in the CIP catalogue but the location in the catalogue - or an edition of that - should be given. This becomes more necessary as other sources are added to the Bibliography - an editor checking the sources has to know at the least which source the information comes from.

On the number of cite tags - as I said above, the previous editor may have gone over the top (there is an essay on the subject). GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:54, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Misnomer: see below. I have tried to disprove it. I don't know where "7.92" came from; it is a nomenclature not found in contemporary sources, i.e. a misnomer. You may alter the sentence if you find it made the claim it was stated anywhere as a misnomer. Fact, there could not, since november, be found any sources for the 7.92 designation. Fact, if it were such a commen designation, then you should find sources by the dozen. I can even find you a source that "the sky was blue" by finding a page that explains why.

WP:Verifiability: I differ. Someone put the 7.92 nomenclature in, and MFIreland claimed rather vehemently this was the "official German military designation". The "burden of evidence" is also such that the claimant has it because it's very easy to say: "In HDv 123/45, the calibre is called 7.92mm". For the sources compilation below, I used up THREE HOURS, and it's not even remotely complete, nor can it EVER be. Like said above, if you would rather the sentence was phrased differently, please, by all means, alter it. Fact is, and fact rests, that there are no sources calling the calibre 7.92mm, C.I.P. and SAAMI don't call it that way, and in contemporary literature, it is commonly (that much I hope is proved beyond reasonable doubt now) named otherwise.

C.I.P.-quotes: Practical problem: [1] - The C.I.P. remodels its web presence, hence the archive is now offline. I can look it up when the page comes back up.

Number of cite tags: Yes, I second that. Now, there was added an unsourced claim the British called it 7.92mm. Here, a contemporary primary source would really add to the article's quality. I think all those cn-tags should be thinned out rather quickly. --Dingo (talk) 21:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

For good understanding I add that the C.I.P. TDCC is an extensive PDF document that shows no page numbers at the individual cartridge datasheet level.--Francis Flinch (talk) 21:34, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

That's because every new calibre can be inserted into the compilation without further alterations. I have given the PDF-page-numbers.--Dingo (talk) 22:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

7.92mm dispute

Proper designation should be 7,9 mm Mauser istead of 7,92

Reading this text about German military arms I have noticed constantly repeated mistake in designation of ammunition used for K 35 rifle or MG 18, or MG 42 machine gun. As far as I have learned the original designation of the caliber should be 8x57mm IS where 8mm stands for rounded measure of the bullet in milimeters, 57 for length of case, I for "Infanterie" - the infantry, and S for "Spitzgeschoss" or pointed nose bullet. Shorter name should be 8mmS, or concerning the artillery habit to designate caliber according to the diameter over fields of the barrel: 7,9mm. In addition to the famous inventor and manufacturer of the bolt action rifle military designation should be 7,9mm Mauser. 8x57IS stays more as civil designation for sporting/hunting rifles and ammunition. Just before the WWI German army introduced new ammunition and chambering 8x57IS for standard Mauser Model 1889 bolt action infantry rifle, till then chambered only for 8x57I. New caliber differed from previous, by slightly larger diameter (7.89mm over fields and 8,20mm over grooves) and another more obvious feature - pointed full metal jacket bullet, demanding new extrusion/pressing manufacturing technologies, but offering better ballistic performances compared to his predcessor with slightly smaller diameter (7,81mm over fields and 8,10mm over grooves) with prominent round-nosed bullet and "civil" designation 8x57I. Important consequence that distinguishes this two calibers, which was the probable intention of the designer, was interchangeability: you could shoot 8x57I from both rifles (chambered for 8x57I and 8x57IS), but if you try to shoot 8x57IS round from 8x57I chambered rifle, damage to the rifle, with severe consequences for the shooter are inevitable. Still ,mostly in some private collections you could find rifles chambered for 8x57I cartridge, and famous German ammunition factory RWS still produces this ammunition. Mistake in designation 7,92mm probably was caused by byrocratic inertia, due to the often, but quite correct transcription of the famoust US .30-06 Springfield caliber in metric measures as 7,62x63mm (0,300 in x 25,4mm/in = 7,62mm). The same is with Soviet/Russian standard rifle caliber from both WWs 7,62x54R (R is for "Rand" in German or "flange" in English), more recent well known 7,62x39AK47, or modern NATO machine gun ammunition caliber 7,62x51mm originally .308 Winchester cartridge designed in 1951 to replace .30-06, with same bullet but shorter, more compact case where .308 stands for diameter of the barrel measured over grooves (.308in = 7,82mm) which is, in fact diameter of all .30 or .300 or .308 designated bullets. Please avoid the mistake; designation "7,92mm" just doesn't have any sense. For now on choose between 7,9mm Mauser or, more correct 8x57IS as designation for certain firearms caliber.

Kind regards,

George B. Vukovic M.Sc. Mech.Eng. Beograd, Serbia

There sure seem to be an awful lot of books that refer to it as 7.92 - in either case where we have two or more names with redirects, as many of the cartridges do, the redirect will handle getting the reader to the correct article. If you think we're missing a redirect just let me know. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Article moved, listed for over 3 weeks with no objections ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

---

7.92x57mm Mauser → 8x57 IS — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Correct C.I.P. Designation. "7.92x57" seems to be a USA-speciality, probably due to shooting regulations (caliber < 8mm?) Dingo (talk) 12:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be no discussion, so I will try to summarise the reasons again:

• The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives, the permanent commission regarding firearms, lists this caliber as 8x57(mm) IS. The C.I.P. with members like Russia, Great Britain and many European and American states, is something like a standardisation commission.
• As far as I could find, the caliber 8x57IS was never known as "7.92". Even the military designation was "Patrone 7,9mm", "Cartridge 7.9mm". Barrels of two Gewehr 98 I could find are stamped "7,9".
• The brass length, "x57 IS", was never used in conjunction with the field diameter "7.9mm"; it's either "Cartridge 7.9mm", or "8x57 JS".

As a conclusion, the military designation was "Cartridge 7.9mm", and the CIP-approved caliber designation is "8x57 IS" (no mm there, because generally all numbers greater than 1 are considered metric, and all below 1 imperial: 7.62x39M43 -> metric, .30 Carbine -> imperial).

7.92 seems to be a mistake so often repeated that now it is, here, preferred to the correct designation. 7.92mm has neither any significance in the measurements of cartridge or barrel; neither can it be translated to a round imperial number (7.92 millimetres (0.312 in)).

Therefore, I will ask for a speedy deletion of 8x57mm IS and move the article.

--Dingo (talk) 21:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

German military designation?

I'm a little at a loss about the "German military designation"-part.

I heard about "7.92x57mm" only in US-based publications. I have consulted now "Reibert, Der Dienstunterricht im Heere", 1940-edition, and "Der Karabiner", Heinz Denckler-Verlag Berlin C2. Both call the caliber of the lands in the barrel of the rifle "7,9 mm"; the ammunition is just "Scharfe Patrone S (Spitzgeschoß)" (Life Cartridge S (Spitz(er)-Bullet)). In a tract about the different bullets for the cartridge (sS - schweres Spitzgeschoß, SmK Spitz mit Kern, Leuchtspur - heavy Spitzer, Spitzer with (steel-)Core, Tracer...), the caliber is called just "7,9mm".

In the civil sector, the caliber was just called "8x57 IS", or, as in German capital I and J were often synonymous, "8x57 JS".

Now:

• Anybody a source where the "2" in "7.92" comes from?
• Anybody a German military source pre-1945 where the "7.92x57" or "7.92x57mm"-designation is used?

There are some sources (normally civilian) post-1945 who use "7.92x57" (eg, German wikipedia) - this is, however, just from US-sources.

I will make a paragraph about the cartridge in the Wehrmacht. From the main paragraph, I will delete the "German military"-part until further sources.

So long, --Dingo (talk) 13:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Contemporary sources for the 8mm designations

After MFIreland began an Edit War in 7.92x33mm Kurz, here are my sources and how they represent the 8mm cartridges:

• see paragraph above for military instruction books of WW2 and Kar 98k
• Kürschner, Joseph: ARMEE UND MARINE o.J. (um 1905), Hamburg, Hansa Template:De-icon: 7.9mm (no length)
• DVP Nr. 69 "Die Maschinenpistole 44", Hauptverwaltung der deutschen Volkspolizei, Ministerium des Inneren der DDR, Berlin 1950: 8x33 Polte - Template:Lang-de. 8x57 IS: Template:Lang-de. (P.28, Die scharfe Patrone)Template:De-icon
• D 1854/3 Sturmgewehr 44, Gebrauchsanleitung vom 3.6.44, Veränderter Nachdruck Dez. 44, p.3 "A. Allgemeines - 3. Munition": Template:Lang-de, 6. Maße und Gewichte, Kaliber: 7,9 mmTemplate:De-icon
• D 1853/1 Maschinenkarabiner 42(W) vom 25.02.1943, p. 15, J. Munition: Template:Lang-de P.5: Kaliber 7,9mm.Template:De-icon
• Der Karabiner 88 nebst Munition, Berlin 1891: p.3: Der Durchmesser des Laufes von Feld zu Feld gemessen - das Kaliber - beträgt 7,9mm. 8x57 I: "Die scharfe Patrone 88" (p.31) Template:De-icon
• Hans-Dieter Götz, Die deutschen Militärgewehre und Maschinenpistolen, Stuttgart 1974, ISBN 3-87943-550-X:Template:De-icon
  • 8x33 kurz: p.199, Polte: "Polte solved the problem by shortening the 7.9mm standard cartridge.
  • 8x57 IS: p.81: Patrone 88 (8x57); p.134: S-Patrone (8x57)

Conclusion: By all those sources, it can be statet that:

• in instruction manuals, the calibre was deemed unimportant. It was given as the calibre of the barrel, field-to-field.
• nomenclature of the cartridges was by name: Patrone 88 (8x57 I), S-Patrone (8x57 IS), Pistolen-Munition / Pistolenpatrone 43 or Kurzpatrone 43 (pistol cartridge / ammunition 43, short cartridge 43).
• ALL metric or imperial diameter naming was "civvies".
• By comparing all sources, a common military designation of 7.9mm can be established (WITHOUT cartridge / brass length).
• Unknown is where the "2" in 7.92 comes from - but if you read the discussion, you knew that already. Even if it can be found in a source, at least regarding Germany, it was very uncommon.
• The claim that the calibre name of 7.92mm was the "official German military designation" has been disproved. It is wrong.

I hope that brings the discussion back to the subject and averts further Edit wars and cn-orgys (WP:DND). No, this was NOT all the literature there is about the weapons and calibres. But I dare say that it is a very good sample. --Dingo (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2010 (UTC)