Talk:Magnetic water treatment

I have e-mailed Prof. Parsons (June 2010) (now head of school) asking for more current update Timpo (talk) 09:16, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

POV

The dispute regarding this article's neutrality appears to surround what may be a very transitory, but possibly real effect. (e.g. Spear, M. 1992. The growing attraction of magnetic treatment. Process Engineering. May, p. 148)

In industry, where water use occurs immediately after being subject a VERY STRONG field, certain chemical processes are reported (albeit unscientifically) as occurring in a different way, e.g. .

Even if these unscientific observations or opinions are indeed true (and we really do not yet know), almost certainly this technique is not very useful in domestic systems, since removing the calcium presumably returns the water to its original (carbonic acid) state without extracting the calcium (which allegedly precipitates as powder, rather than sheets). Therefore any calcium precipitated would soon redissolve, since particle size would be small compared to regular limescale sheets, and surface area correspondingly large. The effect was first reported in the 1930's and provoked a rash of silly quack medicine products, giving this particular dog a bad name. Perhaps it is deserved. But scientifically, the jury is still out, and research continues. Since serious research IS in hand, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a vehicle for pedaling orthodoxy or private opinions, the neutrality of this article IMHO should really remain disputed......Timpo (talk) 08:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this article but it is obviously very biased. Are there any magnetism advocates out there? If not, perhaps it shouldn't exist at all. There are articles on real water softeners. Robertcornell68 (talk) 08:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

???? I am a plumber and I know so many other plumbers that swear by magnets and regard conventional ion exchange softeners as fallacious and wasteful. I sell water treatment not gimmicks and I am really confused on what to now that conventional water softeners are illegal where I live? The flash water heater manufacturers void warranty if there is no water treatment before the heater and they recommend these magnets as water treatment. The people who sell these claim that the ions in water are pulverized into tiny little pieces then ionized so they cant stick to anything. They sell them for around $600, the same as a conventional softener. Supposedly the oil company's use this technology to lower the oils viscosity therefor pumping it easier? I am very confused, do they work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.185.248.160 (talk) 19:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Not POV, but NEUTRAL POV!

This debate has been going on for years! The problem is that technical things are reported in the popular press, and quack manufacturers jump on the bandwagon. An effect was reported at high magnetic fields produced in a laboratory. Soon, ineffectual magnetite bangles and magnetized iron beads were sold to artritus sufferers, and seemed to help, probably by the placebo effect - like gold injections and blood-letting - popular, but not exactly proven! I hope my edit helps! Regards, Timpo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpo (talk • contribs) 11:13, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

Ref: Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute Since the evidence for and against this technology is disputed, the uncited "scientifically proven" claim is insupportable. Nothing is ever "proven" in science. This is a highly complex area of physics which deserves a more substantial article. Although laboratory evidence is scant, and the balance of probability suggests the process may be illusory, it is certainly not proven. There is a substantial market for these things for industrial users, so presumably some well-informed people believe they have obtained some benefit.

There must always some doubt, otherwise the claim is not "scientific" but "religious" certainty! Medicine is mostly religious, because medical researchers do not usually refuse speculative treatment to a control group for supposedly ethical (i.e religious) reasons! I suspect the editors who insist it is pseudoscience may convinced by medical orthodoxy. Why? only because Keepcalmandcarryon is an expression widely used by medical staff (because, traditionally anyway, doctors could literally bury any adverse evidence with their dead patients).

Legally (and medically), we need to consider the "harm" aspect. Would using this technology harm the user? Medically, it may have placebo benefit, but is unlikely to damage the user. Medical use of strong magnetic fields (in EMR scanners, for instance) is well researched, widely practiced and appears to have no adverse biological effect on human patients.

In water treatment (which is what this article is supposed to be about) certainly some fairly substantial users seem convinced, whilst others are not. Therefore it is for the reader to decide on the available evidence. An encyclopedia provides evidential resources, not opinions. For that reason, in April, I inserted a section explaining a simple analogous method of verifying if the apparatus proposed would be effective in the intended application.

The point is, calcium will dissolve in water, and (as every plumber must know) can certainly be precipitated by ion exchange and heat. If the precipitated (solid) calcium is not then physically isolated or removed from the 'treated' water, then, over the course of time it will soon re-dissolve, leaving no tangible evidence of any effect. In water-heaters and kettles, there is always a fresh supply of calcium laden water, and an accretion of visible lime-scale accumulates and must be removed periodically (in ion exchange softeners, more salt has occasionally to be added).

I have reviewed all the contributions and will try to rework this article, time permitting. Timpo (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I've had a look and the article seems to follow WP:NPOV. You can request further review at WP:NPOVN, or (more on topic) WP:FTN. I'm afraid the screed above about the limits of science isn't wikipedia policy. Interestingly there is a problem with MRI scanners in the EU as recent directives seem to outlaw their use on health and safety grounds! Silly, but there you go. Might be a tabloid story, and is probably resolved by now. Returning on topic, we follow the WP:RS - and we have little RS in support of your position. Verbal chat 12:02, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I reverted User:Timpo's edits because they appeared to contain synthesis and original research. I also judged the language to be unencyclopaedic, but that was secondary. The tag was reverted because tag addition should be supported by consensus or some sort of cogent link to guidelines. As an example of why I reverted, consider Timpo's sentence, "Klaus Kronenberg PhD appears to be the most quoted authority to support this effect, or at least, tries to offer some rational explanation." What's wrong? We don't use academic degrees in the text (MoS), "most quoted authority" has no RS and appears to be original research, and "at least, tries to offer some rational explanation" is unencyclopaedic editorial opinion. For a second example, the section "Fortunately a simple consumer test is available" is unsourced, POV and goes against what Wikipedia is not: a how-to guide. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall going through this back in January and again in April, but apparently not on this talkpage. The basic issue is that for statements of scientific fact, we require sources reliable to make the statement. It is also better to rely on independent sources inasmuch as possible. In the absence of such independent sources indicating a controversy over this method, it is inappropriate to present the article as though there is one. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Another view: Some capable and curious engineers I know have had clear successes with this technology in buildings and factories. I have also seen (but cannot find, alas) German-language literature on mechanisms, showing convincing photomicrographs of how magnetic treatment causes waters that previously deposited sticky scale to form instead fluffy aragonite that washes away. Having just looked again at the newer literature (but not reviewed in detail the Cranfield symposium), I am confident this article is nowhere near neutral. I agree that there is much nonsense and hucksterism among the vendors, and that the mechanisms of action are controversial and poorly understood, but the article's statements to the effect that the technology doesn't work and that the scientific literature doesn't support its efficacy are clearly outdated and unbalanced. Science Direct, for example, easily turns up many detailed and apparently competent peer-reviewed articles finding the contrary, of which these are a typical but far from exhaustive sample: 1998 -- doi:10.1016/S0043-1354(97)00277-7 2001 -- doi:10.1016/S0304-8853(01)00432-2 2001 -- doi:10.1016/S0043-1354(01)00010-0 2003 -- doi:10:1016/S0927-7757(03)00133-X 2005 -- doi:10.1016/j.watres.2005.11.019 2006 -- doi:10.1016/j.watres.2006.03.013 These all show clear and reproducible effects consistent with reduced or less tenacious scale formation, and go some way towards understanding why. Coloradophysicist (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism?

My user:timpo revised page and the dispute banner has been removed by user:keepcalmandcarryon without explanation. I replaced the banner and have sought policy advice. the change is here [[1]] Like cold fusion this is a disputed technology. something seems to be happening, and readers deserve both sides of the debate. and a simple test method, which keepcalmandcarryon seems anxious to suppress. It would be nice if s/he would contribute to this talk page (and update theuser:keepcalmandcarryon user profile). Timpo (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

To open a new section on this talk page, please select the "new section" tab at the top. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Timpo, I've had a look at the references in the article and to me they support the assertions made, in particular that the scientific evidence available shows magnetic water treatment to have none of the benefits/effects the proponents claim. In that light it seems appropriate to conclude that this is a psuedoscience. On what basis do you claim this article lacks neutrality? Crafty (talk) 06:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I explained my edits in more detail above. Timpo, WP:RS and WP:NOR are two guidelines that may help you avoid reversions in future. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 13:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The dispute appears to surround a very transitory, but possibly real effect. In industry, where water use occurs immediately after being subject a VERY STRONG field, certain chemical processes are reported as occurring in a different way. Even if this is true, almost certainly this technique is not very useful in domestic systems, since removing the calcium presumably returns the water to its original (carbonic acid) state without extracting the calcium (which allegedly precipitates as powder, rather than sheets). Therefore any calcium precipitated would soon redissolve, since particle size would be small compared to regular limescale sheets, and surface area correspondingly large. The effect was first reported in the 1930's and provoked a rash of silly quack medicine products, giving this particular dog a bad name. Perhaps it is deserved. But scientifically, the jury is still out, and research continues. Since serious research IS in hand, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a vehicle for pedaling orthodoxy or private opinions, the neutrality of this article IMHO should really remain disputed......Timpo (talk) 08:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Timpo do you have reliable secondary sources to hand which would support your assertions? Crafty (talk) 07:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The only content you've provided to present an alternate side to the story comes from either unreliable sources or sources that have nothing to do with magnetic water treatment. Thus, everything you've added is either insignificant or original research. Keep in mind that the neutral point of view is the point of view that can be explicitly supported by reliable sources. The neutral point of view is not about balancing negative information with positive information. Unless you actually present reliable sources to support your claim that "scientifically, the jury is still out," this will continue to look like your personal opinion, and your changes will continue to be reverted with extreme prejudice. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Timpo has had four different opinions but continues to maintain that other editors have not discussed these edits on the talk page. I endorse Crafty's and Someguy's statements above, as well as Verbal's assessment. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 13:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Timpo has one opinion on this subject, which is multi-faceted:

• We appear to agree the science is unclear, but disagree with the way this article implies it is more or less proven to be pseudoscience. Maybe it is, but serious engineers use this technique, and believers spend good money on installing such things in industrial applications (but then serious people believe in lots of imaginary things: user:Timpo believes in Gremlins such as the ones raising this issue)
• This is engineering (suck it and see) not science (demonstrate repeatedly)
• It is impossible to prove a negative - if it does not work in labs, maybe there are too many variables?
• There is a difference between 'proof' (belief) and 'proof' (mathematical probability) which lawyers call 'balance of probability' [[Syntax (logic)]
• My version of the article I have placed here User:Timpo/MWT because I hope some user of this technology will comment on this page or on
• # ^ London South Bank University, Prof. Martin Chaplin. "Water Structure and Science". http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html#212. says:

"There are many devices on the market for the magnetic treatment of water for the removal of such limescale. The sales success of these devices would seem to indicate that some work as promoted, at least under some circumstances. " Maybe London South Bank University is a joke and Prof. Martin Chaplin is a fake academic, but he makes perfect sense to me!

• The European Physical Journal Applied Physics, AA Institute of Nuclear Physics, Kraków, Journal of Physics Universities of Harvard and Wisconsin (US) seemed to be fairly reliable, neither insignificant nor original research. Water treatment means adding something or removing something. those somethings are part of the story, not irrelevanciesTimpo (talk) 07:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Mark Chaplin, self-published sources don't suffice when discussing controversial topics, even if the author has the appropriate credentials. And this is because you can find "established experts" supporting any variety of ideas, from the mainstream to the batshit insane. Someguy1221 (talk) 18:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The Original Wildbear seems to have done a good repair! I added some information relating to patents & listed some of them under the references, since these are really the claims at the core of this article Timpo (talk) 11:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Additional References

In regard to recent editors comments, I did a little research. It appears that efficacy of these devices are disputed, however, I found the following at this site. Perhaps they can be used to better the article?

Bruns, S. A., V. I. Klassen, and A. K. Konshina. 1966. Change in the extinction of light by water after treatment in a magnetic field. Kolloidn. Zh. 28: 153-155. Busch, K. W., M. A. Busch, D. H. Parker, R. E. Darling, and J. L. McAtee, Jr. 1986. Studies of a water treatment device that uses magnetic fields. Corrosion 42 (4): 211-221. Busch, K. W., M. A. Busch, R. E. Darling, S. Maggard, and S. W. Kubala. 1997. Design of a test loop for the evaluation of magnetic water treatment devices. Process Safety and Environmental Protection. Transactions of the Institution of Chemical Engineers 75 (Part B): 105-114. Chechel, P. S., and G. V. Annenkova. 1972. Influence of magnetic treatment on solubility of calcium sulphate. Coke Chem. USSR. 8: 60-61. Daly, J. 1995. Miracle cure. Motor Boating and Sailing. October, p. 36. Denver, E., executive ed. 1996. Magnets that don't do much to soften water. Consumer Reports. February, p. 8. Donaldson, J. D. 1988. Magnetic treatment of fluids -- preventing scale.” Finishing. 12: 22-32. Duffy, E. A. 1977. Investigation of Magnetic Water Treatment Devices. Ph.D. dissertation, Clemson University, Clemson, S.C. Gehr, R., Z. A. Zhai, J. A. Finch, and S. R. Rao. 1995. Reduction of soluble mineral concentrations in CaSO4 saturated water using a magnetic field. Wat. Res. 29 (3): 933-940. Harrison, J. 1993. WQA Glossary of Terms. Water Quality Association. Lisle, Ill. Hasson, D., and D. Bramson. 1985. Effectiveness of magnetic water treatment in suppressing CaCO3 scale deposition. Ind. Eng. Chem. Process Des. Dev. 24: 588-592. Higashitani, K., and J. Oshitani. 1997. Measurements of magnetic effects on electrolyte solutions by atomic force microscope. Process Safety and Environmental Protection. Transactions of the Institution of Chemical Engineers 75 (Part B): 115-119. Joshi, K. M., and P. V. Kamat. 1966. Effect of magnetic field on the physical properties of water. J. Ind. Chem. Soc. 43: 620-622. Klassen, V. I. 1981. Magnetic treatment of water in mineral processing. In Developments in Mineral Processing, Part B, Mineral Processing. Elsevier, N.Y., pp. 1077-1097. Kronenberg, K. J. 1985. Experimental evidence for effects of magnetic fields on moving water. IEEE Trans. on Magnetics, vol. Mag-21, no. 5: 2059-2061. Krylov, O. T., I. K. Vikulova, V. V. Eletskii, N. A. Rozno, and V. I. Klassen. 1985. Influence of magnetic treatment on the electro-kinetic potential of a suspension of CaCO3. Colloid J. USSR 47: 820-824. Liburkin, V. G., B. S. Kondratev, and T. S. Pavlyukova. 1986. Action of magnetic treatment of water on the structure formation of gypsum. Glass and Ceramics (English translation of Steklo I Keramika) 1: 101-105. Lin, I., and Y. Yotvat. 1989. Electro-magnetic treatment of drinking and irrigation water. Water and Irrigation Rev. 8:16-18. Lipus, L., J. Krope, and L. Garbai. 1994. Magnetic water treatment for scale prevention. Hungarian J. Ind. Chem. 22: 239-242. Marshall, S. V,. and G. G. Skitek 1987. Electromagnetic Concepts and Applications. 2nd ed. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, Inc. Martynova, O. I., E. F. Tebenekhin, and B. T. Gusev. 1967. Conditions and mechanism of deposition of the solid calcium carbonate phase from aqeuous [sic] solutions under the influence of a magnetic field. Colloid J. USSR 29: 512-514. McNeely, M. 1994. Magnetic fuel treatment system designed to attack fuel-borne microbes. Diesel Progress Engines and Drives. November, p. 16. Mirumyants, S. O., E. A. Vandyukov, and R. S. Tukhvatullin. 1972. The effect of a constant magnetic field on the infrared absorption spectrum of liquid water. Russ. J. Phys. Chem. 46: 124. Parsons, S. A., S. J. Judd, T. Stephenson, S. Udol, and B.-L. Wang. 1997. Magnetically augmented water treatment. Process Safety and Environmental Protection. Transactions of the Institution of Chemical Engineers 75 (Part B): 98-104. Raisen, E. 1984. The control of scale and corrosion in water systems using magnetic fields. Corrosion 84. Conference proceedings, Nat. Assoc. of Corrosion Engineers, Houston, paper no. 117. Singley, J. E. 1984. Municipal water treatment. In Kirk-Othmer Encyl. of Chemical Technology. 3rd ed. Edited by Martin Grayson. New York: John Wiley and Sons. Vol. 24, pp. 385-406. Skripka, N. I., A. A. Litvinov, and I. G. Tretyakov. 1975. Influence of operational factors on oxidizability of liquid hydrocarbons. Operational Properties of Fuels, Lubricants and Technical Liquids Used in Civil Aviation [Kiev] 1: 11-14. [In Russian.] Spear, M. 1992. The growing attraction of magnetic treatment. Process Engineering. May, p. 143. Tretyakov, I. G., M. A., Rybak, and E. Yu. Stepanenko. 1985. Method of monitoring the effectiveness of magnetic treatment for liquid hydrocarbons. Sov. Surf. Eng. Appl. Electrochem. 6: 80-83. Tretyakov, I. G., E. S. Denisov, and A. N. Solovev. 1975. Effects of magnetic field treatment on electrophysical properties of aviation fuels. Operational Properties of Fuels, Lubricants and Technical Liquids Used in Civil Aviation [Kiev] 1: 41-42. [In Russian.] Welder, B. Q., and E. P. Partridge. 1954. Practical performance of water-conditioning gadgets. Ind. Eng. Chem. 46: 954-960. Wilkes, J. F., and R. Baum. 1979. Water conditioning devices -- an update. Int. Water Conf.: 40th Annual Meeting, paper no. IWC-79-20. Yarows, S. A., W. E. Fusilier, and A. B. Weder. 1997. Sodium concentration of water from softeners. Arch. Intern. Med. 157: 218-222. Neuromancer (talk 03:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Magnetohydrodynamics

In the "Mechanisms" section, various proposals are cited but not this one:

At least one vendor claims the mechanism is Magnetohydrodynamics (see also their diagram on "How does it work") for a change in crystal shape.

I'm not sure how best to include it, if at all -- unsurprisingly the vendor provides no independent reference for their claims, so I'm left with only their site to cite, which I don't want to do on the main page. Having tried hunting down pages and coming up with the experience-based "it works" and no significant research from the science community that seemed to address what the "it works" people are experiencing, I resorted to Wikipedia only to find it's a bit of a mess... (Even the Magnetohydrodynamics page seems to be some borderline science that's still hotly debated...)

188.220.56.222 (talk) 11:05, 15 January 2011 (UTC)