Talk:William Cragh

William Cragh is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 26, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed
December 20, 2010	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured article

Biography FA‑class

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Pics

I don't know if File:Pisanello 010.jpg is any use. There is a still more gruesome Pisanello drawing next to it on Commons. Johnbod (talk) 02:23, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's just the kind of picture I've been looking for, as that's exactly what the gallows Cragh was hanged on would have looked like. Thanks! Malleus Fatuorum 01:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, your basic medieval Ikea SNAAPËR model double gallows :) Johnbod (talk) 03:09, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Err...

The Lord of Gower in 1290 was William de Braose, 1st Baron Braose, so says the all powerful Complete Peerage. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm sure it's right. I'm not sure what happened, but the link I removed was to this William, who was obviously long dead by 1290. Malleus Fatuorum 00:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions after rereading Hanska...

Might point out that there is some controversy over whether he was a thief or a rebel (or both), and that the fact that his offer of compensation was refused by the elder Briouze lends support to him being a rebel. Also point out that he probably came from a decent social standing, as 100 cows wasn't a small ransom in this context. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:27, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also thought that 100 cows was by no means a trivial offer, added to which it's not explained why William's relatives were roped in (so to speak) to hang him. I'll have another read through what Hanska has to say. Malleus Fatuorum 23:41, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may have enough for a FA out of this... if you go into more of the possibilities and political motivations behind the scene - the proctors that might have "helped" folks remember, etc. etc. I've requested the book from U of I, and should have it in my hands by the end of the weekend. I'm thinking the St Thomas Cantilupe, bishop of Hereford: essays in his honour, ed. M. Jancey book might have something also. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I requested the Jancey also. Thomas de C hasn't been a priority of mine, but it won't hurt to do some work on him too. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd obviously need your help with that Ealdgyth. I just stumbled across William when I came across a book the title of which caught my eye in my local library. Malleus Fatuorum 00:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I love the little bits of oddness that you can stumble across in poking around. Like Hygberht - I never knew there was an Archbishop of Lichfield in the middle ages! Or good old William of York, who probably got poisoned in his communion chalice (and the suspected culprit was Osbert de Bayeux?) shortly after being reinstated as archbishop in York, and after surviving a bridge collapse? Just weirdnesses all over. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be great if Deacon came back and chipped in as well. I agree with you about the oddness factor. I've got an article waiting in the wings about some green kids who arrived on Earth when a matter transporter on their home planet malfunctioned. So much to do. :lol: Malleus Fatuorum 00:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Killings

So these were in battle then? I can see the details are a little sketchy due to lack of records. Maybe that should be mentioned in the lead? I'm a little embarrassed to admit that at first based on the lead I thought he was a serial killer, and got excited, figuring this article would be fairly lurid. AaronY (talk) 07:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is that nobody knows, but I'd very much doubt that it was in battle. Who'd be keeping count in the heat of a medieval battle anyway? If Cragh was indeed a rebel as seems likely, although some considered him to be just a thief or a brigand, then it's probable that these were men he'd killed during raids on de Briouze's lands. Obviously though there are no records of the charges against Cragh or of his trial at Swansea Castle in 1290. All we know is that Cragh was accused of killing 13 men, which he denied. I don't really think this is something that needs to be spelled out in the lead. Malleus Fatuorum 16:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cambro-Norman Lord of Gower

Any objection to changing “Captured in 1290 by the son of William de Briouze, the Anglo-Norman Lord of Gower ...” to “Captured in 1290 by the son of William de Briouze, the Cambro-Norman Lord of Gower ...”. He was, after all, the grandson of Llywelyn Fawr. Daicaregos (talk) 11:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]