Talk:United Church of Christ

Lutheran Connections?

I see that two different editors have made the unsourced claim that the UCC is within the Lutheran tradition. Can anyone provide a source for this? If not, I think it should be removed. Reform tradition and Lutheran tradition are the not the same thing. Neither the Congregationalists nor the E & R churches are part of the Lutheran tradition, so I'm really not sure where this comes from--unless you're trying to claim that anything not Catholic is Lutheran? WeisheitSuchen (talk) 01:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

"The denomination, therefore, looks to a number of historic confessions as expressing the common faith around which the church gathers, including:

• the Apostles' Creed,
• the Nicene Creed,
• the Heidelberg Catechism (inherited from both the German Reformed and German Evangelical heritages),
• Luther's Small Catechism (inherited from the German Evangelical heritage),
• the Kansas City Statement of Faith (a 1913 statement in the Congregationalist tradition),
• the Evangelical Catechism (a 1927 catechism in the German Evangelical tradition), and
• the Statement of Faith of the United Church of Christ (written at the founding of the denomination)."

"The Evangelical Synod of North America traced its roots to later waves of 19th- and early 20th-century German immigration, which settled primarily in the Midwest (especially Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Michigan). Members of this group largely came from the Evangelical Church of the Union, which formed in 1817 as a union of the Lutheran and Reformed churches in Prussia. The group often identified as primarily Lutheran (usually depending upon a local pastor's preference and/or background), but held a mixture of both Lutheran and Reformed beliefs and practices—so much so as to prevent this group from merging with other Lutheran bodies. Evangelicals looked to both the Reformed Heidelberg Catechism and Luther's Small Catechism as their confessions (and eventually developed an "Evangelical Catechism" for confirmation training of youth, which merged views of both)." Also note that when "Evangelical" is used it refers to Lutheranism.Ltwin (talk) 03:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Using Luther's Small Catechism does not demonstrate that the UCC is "generally considered" to be within the Lutheran tradition today, as the lead implies with the use of present tense. I'm afraid you're going to need a stronger source than that to refute what the UCC says about itself, which is that it is from the Reform tradition, as in Our Reformation Roots. Conflating evangelical with Lutheranism simply confuses the point further, and doesn't support your argument. Who is it that you believe "generally considers" the UCC to be part of the Lutheran tradition? WeisheitSuchen (talk) 04:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok well take a look at the page on the UCC site explaining the Lutheran/Reformed Formula of Agreement] of 1997. Skip down to the last paragraph and read where it expressly says "The United Church of Christ is the only church in the relationship that has roots in both the Reformed and Lutheran heritage. Our "German Evangelical" tradition drew from the wells of both Reformed and Lutheran Christianity. Many UCC congregations of our "German Reformed" tradition—especially in historically German-American communities in Pennsylvania—have lived together with Lutheran congregations as "union churches" since the 18th century." Ltwin (talk) 04:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you; that's what you should have used in the first place. If you feel strongly enough about it to edit war on it, I expect you to be able to back it up with a reliable external source. However, I don't think that shows that the two are on equal footing, as your current phrasing in the lead implies. What about "primarily in the Reform tradition, but also historically influenced by Lutheranism," which seems to more accurately reflect how the UCC tells its own history? After all, there's a section for "Our Reformation Roots" but no parallel section for Lutheranism. The current phrasing gives undue weight to Lutheranism. If it seems too complex to tease out that relationship in the lead, then I'd prefer to just see it cut and dealt with later in the article. WeisheitSuchen (talk) 12:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with saying it has roots in Lutheranism. Ltwin (talk) 17:00, 2 November 2009 including this is unclear. The referenced document stands by itself. --Albany45 (talk) 01:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)