User talk:JCCO

==¡Bienvenidos!== Saludos Juan! My name's Nathaniel, but I go by the username Spangineer around here. I hope you enjoy editing wikipedia and that you stick around. If you have any questions about anything related to wikipedia, just let me know – go to my talk page, hit the plus sign (+) next to "edit this page" at the top and leave me a note. You can sign your name after you're done by typing ~~~~. A few links you might find useful include: Tutorial, Manual of Style, Community Portal, Policy Library and perhaps most importantly, the Sandbox, where you can just play around and try different things. Have a great day, and again, ¡dime si tienes una pregunta! Happy editing! Spangineer ∞ 19:45, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Motto on Chile page

Hi Nathaniel,

I hope you don't object to my reverting your translation of the motto too much, but there was some discussion previously on that page over what was the best way to translate that motto and the general consenus was "By reason or by force" although what you had put might be literally correct. I have a great affection for Lima and Peru. I was previously married to a Peruvian for many years and I lived in Rimac (Ciudad y Campo) for some months and I know Arequipa, Huancayo, La Merced, Satipo and Juaja. I started articles Mantaro Valley, Casma Valley and have done quite a bit of editing on Peruvian Cuisine. I am now living in Concepcion in Chile.

Cheers..Paul Conce 00:44, 2005 August 19 (UTC)

Ditto

Yes, I have changed that also to be consistent. Thanks Conce 04:58, 2005 August 19 (UTC)

Sumac & Flórez

For both Sumac and Flórez, THEIR OWN identity was the PRIME FACTOR. Only THEN was phenotype also a contributing factor, which complimented their identity. In Perú, where around 37% are mestizo, and 45% are Amerindian, people like Flórez that have a slight non-European admixture (in his case Afro-peruvian admixture) are the ones that are classified and classify themselves as being the white population of Perú (15% of the population).

If you insist on placing Flórez as a mixed race Peruvian, which at the end of the day I admit he is (although the admixture is small, and Afro-peruvian for that matter), then I suggest you place him as an example on the Mulatto article. But as I said, for all puroses, in Perú, Flórez and people like him (with slight non-European admixture) are that country's whites. If not, then Perú has no whites. Al-Andalus 03:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC).

The other cases

Obviously identity is the most important factor, and if it fits with the phenotype, then that is what is taken. But if the identity of the person does not fit neatly with the actual phenotype they present, then it can't be said that they are that identity, if we are going to be encyclopædic about it.

If someone of distant mestizo ancestry appears white, and his identity is white, then by all means he must be presented as white on this ecyclopædia, and especially for the purpose of racial classification in Perú.

As for the surnames. Although a Spanish surnames is a great indicator of Iberian ancestry for the Hispanic countries of the Americas, it does not imply an equal amount of input from both races, especially in Guatemala, Bolivia and Perú, and particularly in regards to their contemporary racial classification systems*. Although in Hispanic America there was no systematic distribution of surnames among natives as there was in the Philippines (see Catálogo Alfabético de Apellidos), and only given names (first names) of Amerindians were Christianised (ie, Spanish names like Juan, Critóbal, María, etc.) some Amerindians were indeed given Spanish surnames at baptism, although most were not. This is why Quispe (a Quechua surname) is Perú's most common surname (according to what you yourself have said) and not surprisingly since half the population is Amerindian.

(*) In the colonial era, someone who was half Amerindian and half Spanish, then they were mestizos. Someone of a quarter Spansih and three quaters Amerindian was a Cholo, or a quarter Amerindian and a three quarters Spanish was a castizo. Then you had the quinterones, sextarones, etc... Today, the mestizos are the same as the colonial perios, but all other classifications have fallen into disuse. Those who in the colonial era would have been castizos today fall into either white or mestizo, depending on their identity, the vast majority call themselves white. Same with cholos, the vast majority call themselves mestizos (the norm being to move one step up in the in use terms, not one step down). Today, anyone who has more Spanish than a castizo would just be Spanish with no need to decide, and anyone with more blood than a cholo would always be Amerindian with no need to decide. Most Peruvians are either Amerindian or fall into the "more Amerindian than a Cholo" (and thus Amerindian). Most of Perú's mestizos are also what would have been Cholos in the colonial era, and have chosen the one step up. Most of Perú's whites are those that have more Spanish than an a Castizo, but a vast proportion are also castizos that choose that one step up, rather than one step down to mestizo. The only three working classification in modern user are white, mestizo, and amerindian (that goes for all countries of Hispanic America). In Perú Cholo may be still used, but not as a discriptor of race ratio. It has changed to mean a "westernized" unmixed Amerindian, but that's a bit too complex for this simple example. Al-Andalus 04:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC).