Talk:Military brat

On several occassions, the question of why a this article needs (U.S. subculture) after it as compared to writing it in a more global perspective.

• Initial military history peer review where somebody from England and Germany discussed the problems with making this a global article.
• Initial discussion on name.
• Discussion on the article name.
• First FAC review, during which time the article name was changed from Military Brat to Military Brat (U.S. subculture).
• Second FAC, again DAB discussed and appropriateness thereof determined.
• Discussion on U.S. bias vs original research if effort made to globalize.
• Section from article exploring research into how military brats has only been done on U.S. brats.
• Discussion on the use of (U.S. subculture) when no main article exists
• Analysis on why a single generic article for military brats is impractical.
• Discussion leading to creation of stub for Military Brat

Before moving this page or questioning the need for the (U.S. subculture) disambig, please review the previous discussions.

Etymology

I've removed this from the article:

"The term may be an acronym for British Regiment Attached Travelers. Adams, Leah; Kirova, Anna (2006), Global Migration and education, Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Inc., p. 263–4, ISBN 0-8058-5838-5"

The cited book does indeed suggest this, but I'm pretty confident it's wrong. Acronymic origins for words are exceptionally rare before the twentieth century, and "brat" as a (perjorative) word for "child" dates back to circa 1500 - it's in William Dunbar's writings, according to the OED. The term may have 'adopted' that meaning, but it's a bit misleading to say it is actually an acronym per se. Shimgray | talk | 13:57, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Then perhaps we could reword it. I am uncomfortable removing cited text because another editor thinks its wrong without any alternative sourcing. Karanacs (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand that popping up and saying "sorry, but this is wrong" looks a bit implausible at first... but it's almost certainly the case. Had it been more than a single bare sentence, I'd have reworded it, but, well, it's just a bald claim, there isn't really much more we can do without heavily annotating it to the point that it becomes a self-negating statement. In cases like this, I feel the best approach is to remove it and have the meta-discussion about whether or not it's appropriate to use it on the taklkpage rather than in the article text. So, to the analysis!

I can only find three quotes of the purported originating phrase - that book, another 2006 book which notes it as 'possible', and the title (but oddly not the text) of an article on the British Educational Research Journal, June 2004 (jstor), which reviews some books on the military-brat topic. The first book gives no source, and the second cites it to MG Ender's Military brats and other global nomads (2002), one of the books being reviewed in the third - this book seems to be the earliest of the reputable print sources.

Google Books doesn't let me see Ender's book, but we get an intriguing snippet view - the one hit for the word "Traveler" is the BRAT acronym, in large text on an early page... and a source of "from can.military-brats NEWSGROUP". Which lets us go and dig through Google, and we end up with exactly one hit - this post from 1997. This is as far back as I can take the chain - someone on Usenet forwarding someone else's post about something a third party (who isn't named) said he heard a long time ago!

The word "brat" (for "child") is attested as early as the start of the sixteenth century; it's probably derived from a Northumbrian dialect term for clothing more than a thousand years old. The OED cites "military brat" as an explicitly North American term first recorded in 1981, and makes no reference to an acronymic or British origin for the term. As to the general plausibility of early acronymic origins, there's a good discussion quoted in Acronym#Historical and current use, which is what originally made this seem unlikely to me. Hope this explains my reasoning... Shimgray | talk | 19:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally, as the author who did most of the research for the main article, I don't think this acronymn should be there either. There are several other (imo more plausible) explanations, but the fact is that nobody knows for sure what the origin of the term brat in this context was. I do find Shim's statement that the earliest recorded use of the phrase "military brat" was in 1981 interesting---I'm not doubting his finding. The sources I've read, however, indicate that "brat" was used to describe military children as far back as the US civil war. But that might be part of evolution of the term. (I also know that military families used the term long before 1981---my dad who graduated from HS in '65 grew up with the term.) My suspicion is that the term brat was used to describe children of military families long before 1981, but that 1981 was the first time that the term brat was explicitly used in conjunction with the word "military" thus making the moniker we know today as "military brat." My guess is that prior to that the term brat just stood on its own (*MY* first encounter as a child was that I was a brat---heck I remember calling myself an Army Brat (despite my dad's being in the Air Force) long before I started using the term Military Brat. *I* didn't like the term "brat" at first unless it had the modifier "army" (and later Military) in front of it.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

There are now two citations on British Regiment Attached Traveler.

"Traveler" is actually a very old British term and I would argue that resonates with "old British Empire" language. Perhaps the term evolved, with "Traveler" in the originating moniker and then later it got worked into an acronym. That's just a guess though.

I have re-entered the passage (and now the two citations) but with more tentative language then was posted years ago. Since the language is now tentative it's left as an open question, which I think is better than leaving it completely out.

On a personal note: I was called a Military brat as early as 1968 and my mother (also a military brat) remembers being called that in the mid-1940s.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I've removed it again, I'm afraid - I think we're doing the reader a disservice by quoting something which is patently implausible and suggesting it might be true, when it's almost certainly not. We could hedge it around with qualifications to try to indicate this, but then we'd end up with a self-negating claim which just looks messy; better to have it out entirely and be done with it.

Those qualifications would be: "Brat" for child dates back several centuries, and the concept of "formally recognised" military dependents (wives & children "on the strength", etc) really doesn't exist before the nineteenth century, meaning that they'd have to have formed an acronym to fit an existing word which already meant "child". However, forming acronyms like this is a fairly modern process; even assuming the mid-nineteenth century would be pretty anachronistic. The OED provides no indication of an acronymic origin - and very sparse citation even for a modern use - which strongly suggests it isn't a historic British term; the ever-useful Google Books corpus confirms it only emerges c. 1940. Two sources do quote the claim that it's an old British use, but one of those provides no citation for the claim and the other (see note above) can be traced to a posting on a Usenet newsgroup quoting something someone heard once.

In short, the claim simply isn't plausible once we look at the details. Shimgray | talk | 20:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Pushing Origin of Term Back Farther

Here is a Wikipedia article (with citations) that dates the use of the term "Trenchards Brats" (British RAF Brats) back to 1922. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat

That not only places it firmly in Britain, but raises another question. Would the modern American military so easily adapt the term "BRAT" from the British?

Wouldn't the point of entry of the term be more likely prior to the formation of the United States, during the time of British rule?

Telemachus.forward (talk) 17:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

From National "Geographic Traveler Hong Kong" By Phil Macdonald, Rory Boland, on page 76, "Hollywood Road: Carved along the hillside above Western Hollywood Road was built in 1844 for the British regiment attached there..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ewuxIdF47AC&pg=PA76&dq=%22british+regiment+attached+traveler%22&hl=en&ei=290cTeD9BpCusAOynJ2dCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=regiment%20attached&f=false

(British Regiment Attached Travelers?)

If anyone else finds anything (stronger) that supports a citation of "brat" in this usage from before 1920, please post it here in this section...

98.245.148.9 (talk) 19:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

That use of BRAT is an acronym for British Regiment Attached Travelers and is unrelated to the colloquial usage described in this article. It's a name for an elite group of adults and not related to the children of career miliary personnel, so it's existence has no bearing on the date of origin of the term "military brat". Yworo (talk) 20:36, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you taht Trenchard's Brats which were cited above as an example from 1922 is unapplicable, because the term was clearly referenced to a specific group of airment. But I'd need to see sources related to British Regimented Attached Travellers. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but if you are correct then there are a lot of sources out there making the same claim and doing so for year. Morton Ender, one of the premier researchers, on US brats has used that as a possible explanation (although it is not the one that he seems to favor.) Another is Grace Clifton. Grace did a study wherein he looked at Morton Ender and Mary Wertsch's research and hypothesized if their conclusions would be applicable to British brats. He clearly attributes the British Regimented Attached Traveller theory to the origin of the term. See: Clifton, Grace, "Making the Case for the BRAT (British Regiment Attached Traveler)", British Educational Research Journal, Vol. 30, No. 3 2004---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:05, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, some speculation by non-linguists. I see Hayden says nothing stronger than "possibly". I don't see it referenced in any Ender I can currently search. Don't currently have access to the Clifton article, but the key word is I'm sure "hypothesize". I suppose it's possible, but you'd think it would turn up in some historical document or letter if it'd become a common colloquial phrase. Yworo (talk) 21:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The article by Clifton was a hypothesization on the affects of growing up in the British Military. Would the findings of Ender/Wertsch hold true for British brats as well? Clifton seems to take the name origins as a given (but he is not a linguist)---and numerous other sources cite that as an origin as well. Personally, *I* am dubious of the claim. I find Ender's hypothesis more compelling/plausible, but don't remember where I read it. Ender hypothesizes that the term came about during the 1800's, when family members would accompany military units on campaigns. That the soldier would have some kid tagging along, cleaning his shoes, doing some odd chore, when somebody would ask, "Whose that kid?" And the soldier would respond, "Oh that's my brat." I didn't include it when I first worked on the article because it was purely hypothetical on his part, and he admitted as such, but to me it makes more sense than a convient acronym. While a number of sources use the British Regiment Attached Traveller's origin story (it is probably the most widely accepted hypothesis) *I* find it questionable.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You can't prove that the term "trenchards brats" is unrelated. You can only hypothesize.

However there is another academic source claiming that the term "military brat" originated from the same (military community) where the "Trenchards Brats" school was located. The academic source also says that the term "military brat" originated from the same place.

Given however that there is also historical documentation that describes children following regiments as being "attached" to those regiments (cited as early as 1775) I'd say there is a good chance the term may go back a lot farther than 1920.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

More to the point, you can't prove that it is. You can (maybe) cite some people who say that it might be. Using "historical documentation that describes children following regiments" is called original research and such speculation isn't permitted in the article. Yworo (talk) 21:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Have you seen me adding this (as an incontrovertible fact) to any article? No you haven't.

I posted here (above, in the discussion area) a request for citations of stronger evidence.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 21:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Um, yes, we can easily prove that Trenchard's Brats is unrelated to military youth. Simply read the definition and how the term Trenchard Brat was used to reference specific airmen who were trained as aicraft mechanics and named after Hugh Trenchard. You undermine your case when you hold to an untenuable position.

As for the origin of the term, any hypothesis has to be done with the caveat that it is just that. Nobody knows the true origin. Personally I find Morton Ender's hypothesis most compelling.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is the academic source stating that the term "military brat" was also used in the same military community that the Trenchards school was based in, and as early as 1920--

Cranston, CA. "Challenging Contemporary Ecocritical Place Discourses: Military Brats, Shadow Places, and Homeplace Consumerism". Indian Journal of Ecocriticism, V. 2, 2009. pp. 73-89. ISSN 0974-2840

Telemachus.forward (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting source, it does do a few things. First, it addresses Scott's question below about the international flavor as this is a source from India with somebody from the British Military background. Second, it does seem to argue that Trenchard's Brat was the origin of the term. Which is interesting because that would place the term early 20th century and mean that it has undergone a significant evolution (although not unheard of.) I think this source is worth citing.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:05, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't say that. The author identifies himself as a military brat, and states that the Aero Engineering Apprentices were called "Trenchard's Brats". It doesn't say anything about the contemporaneous use of the term "military brat". If you think it does, quote the sentence that makes the statement. Yworo (talk) 22:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right it doesn't say that the term "Military Brat" was used by Trenchards Brats, but it does give an interesting notion as to where the use of brat came from and that it might have originated with that group of airmen. How it made the jump from airmen to dependents would be interesting, but I think the hypothesis is worth mentioning. (To me it is more believable than the more often cited British Regiment one.) The term DEFINITELY had a different meaning for Trenchard Brats than the current usage of Brat in the military context. (Personally, I never heard the generic term Military Brat until I was an adult---it was always Army Brat despite my being an Air Force brat.)---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:29, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Also the Wikipedia article on "Trenchards brats" says that the age of the students started at "15".

That would describe a military childhood.

There are no perfectly precise lines in sociology or culture, take for instance children of American National Guard or Reserve soldiers. They can be called military brats, but their upbringings are different in some ways from "mobile" military brats. And yet (on the other hand) they also have some important things in common.

What you have are overlaps (and areas of influence), not exact, precise, rigid definitions.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah, now you're speculating. In Europe, it's common for young adults to start vocational training earlier than in the U.S. I knew a German who had been working for a major U.S. corporation in Germany since about the age of 16. The further back you go, the earlier the "working age" at which people were considered adults. Yworo (talk) 22:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes I know, I lived in Europe for 7 years, 5 of those years in Germany.

One however may be legally an "adult" but in reality still a child.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

That's actually a relative cultural determination and not an absolute. (In other words, spare us your personal opinions.) Yworo (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

When I lived in Europe in most ways a 15 year old would be considered a child.

The statement about the origin of the term in the paper is on page one.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no such statement on page one. Again, I asked you to quote such a statement. Yworo (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Balloonman, I agree with you that is a usable source. I've also got some more (new) sources to share on the subject (I'd like to draw on your Wikipedia experience to see what you think).

But I've got to go take care of some things right now. I'll post other (new) sources that I have found later.

Have a great day!

Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is her statement on page one. It not only mentions that community (where the school was) was the origin of the term, but she also goes on to say that her father (who was in the RAF at the time) was stationed there (and her mother was there).

So it suggests a personal knowledge of the the use of the term there.

Statement (below):

"Current use, however, is said to have originated in England, at RAF (Royal Air Force) Halton, in 1920 where Lord Trenchard initiated training for Aero Engineering Apprentices as young as fifteen. Their knowledge beyond their years challenged the senior members who referred derisively to the boys as Trenchard’s Brats (Tams 2000). By way of establishing my speaking position as a brat I confess to being born at RAF Halton; that my mother was ex-WRAF, and :my father (a single parent with four dependents from a previous marriage) was :a lifer in the RAF."

Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

That's what we call weasel words: "is said to" without a citation. So, we are going to be citing that somebody says that it is said? Is said by whom? Yworo (talk) 22:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and that's simply not "page 1". It's the 4th page of the PDF and labeled page 76 of the journal. Yworo (talk) 22:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

This isn't proof, but it's interesting, here is a book on the American Revolution describing 'children attached to a regiment' (is not the only one about that time period that uses that phrasing) It actually shows two examples of this, the second one is very interesting because it distinguishes between Children attached to the regiment and children who are just visiting the regiment. That would be a strong implication that the ones who were "attached" were traveling with the regiment.

Also interesting, the first one is a British regiment, but the second one is an American regiment, which shows that the concept of "regiment-attached children" is being applied to both American and British regiments by this historian, http://books.google.com/books?id=hnAy4zEe3SAC&pg=PA67&dq=attached+child+camp+followers&hl=en&ei=8hYdTdaNEY3CsAP4taStCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=attached%20to%20them&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Telemachus.forward (talk • contribs) 03:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Telemachus.forward (talk) 03:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

There are also blogs out there by Indian "Fauji brats" that talk about being "attached to the infantry" as children. Again, not proof, but interesting. http://mymindcreeks.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-last-days-being-bratty.html Here's one: Telemachus.forward (talk) 04:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Correction. Sorry on my link to the Revolutionary War source, there are 10 sample pages talking about women or children attached to regiments. It is the 4th (fourth) and 10th (tenth) sample page that contain references to children attached to American Regiments. The others are British.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 06:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not a forum for you personal research. Unless any of those sources relate the term "military brat" to what they are writing about, you are just wasting everyone's time. Yworo (talk) 06:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Original research

Does any reliable source say this is a global term, or has significant use outside North America? Otherwise what we have here is original research based on Wikipedians finding the term in one or two sources. That's unacceptable.

"It has been documented" is also weasel wording. By whom? Has a study been done? Or is it simply that wikipedians have found a few usages and drawn a conclusion from their own research? Has any reliable sources documented the various international usages and drawn an independent conclusion that we can record?--Scott Mac 17:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Scott, on the Category deletion discussion page (for this topic) you have been presented with a list of "military brat" organizations (using that exact term) from several different countries, including New Zealand, the Philippines, Canada, Britain, Australia, America and India.

That alone shows the term to be in use in all of these countries^^.

So you shouldn't comment on something unless you read what has been presented to you thoroughly.

Also, please do not make personal attacks, by using the term "Weasel words", when debating Wikipedia editing issues.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. First, I made no personal attacks. I commented on the wording - see WP:WEASEL. Second, pointing to a source here and a source there and drawing a conclusion none of the sources individually support is the nature of original research. Please don't personalise this. If no source suggests this is an "international term" then Wikipedia must not do that either. I have read what has been presented, and it is not adequate under our policy.--Scott Mac 17:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you haven't read this as thoroughly as you think.

Over there (and here) are cited articles describing "Canadian military brats as an institution", Indian military brats as having "a different way of life", academic citations citing the British use of of the term ("British Regiment Attached Traveler") and a Wikipedia article citing the use of the term "Brat" in (In Britain, associated with the RAF) in relation to this subject as far back as 1922. Also cited are books that focus on the subject of "military brats" in American culture.

This is all in addition to the fraternal organizations in numerous countries that I have mentioned above.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 18:03, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Also I'd like to mention a common mistake that many people make in failing to understand "military brat" cultures: They will think about children of veterans that they know (and their lives) and assume they have the whole story.

Second, most "military brats" are children of career military families who serve for 20, 30 even 40 years. So (in terms of the "subcultural" use of the term) they are not the children of "Joe" or "Michael" down the street who only served in the military for 4 years. They are the children of career military families who grew up totally immersed in the culture and rituals of the military in a way that many civilians do not understand.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought. The answer to my question is "no".--Scott Mac 19:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

That's right... if we disregard international organizations that use the term, international news papers/news media that use the term, international scholars that have used the term, etc then you are entirely correct. But only after we disregard the numerous sources that do use it. Give me a break.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Balloonman no. I do not believe this is an international term, I suspect it is a US term that has (like other bits of US culture) been occasionally transmitted into other spheres. If you want to say it is an international term, you will need to provide a source to support that. Pointing to occasional uses, and inviting a conclusion, does not support that. Indeed it is the essence of a synthesis towards original research. It is, of course, entirely possible that I am wrong and that this is an international term, but so far I've seen no source to support that assertion, and for myself I find it somewhat unlikely. However, my opinion is not relevant - nor is any inference you or I may or may not draw from such usage as we might find, since we are not doing research. So, is there a source saying that this is an international term? I will keep pressing that question.--Scott Mac 21:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

But therein lies the point though Scott. You have tens of thousands of people from England, Australia, New Zealand, India, and Canada joining various face book groups dedicated to Brats. You have several organizations from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc that date back to the 1990's that use the term brat in reference to children of military personell. You have various media outlets and (especially in the case of Canada) governmental agencies using the term to reference brats. You have international scholars (albeit not many) who use the term. The very existence of The Australian and New Zealand Brats of Singapore which has been in existence since 2001 and had annual reunions since 2003 shows that this term is international. As does the Canadian Air Force Brat Association which started its website in 1996 and claims over 10K members. You have similar terms (pad brats and scale-e brats) that have no American antecendent, but are used elsewhere to describe military brats.

The existence of the term and usage around the globe can't be disputed; it is fact and easily discernable. You do not need a source that says, "This term is used internationally" when you can show sources that prove it. Frankly what you are asking for is absurd and not necessary. What you are saying is, "I need a source that says, 'military brat is a term used in canada.'" When provided with multiple sources showing that the term is used in Canada, you are saying, "No no, the fact that the term is used in Canada isn't enough, I need a source that says it is used." That's ridiculous.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You have demonstrated that an American slang term is occasionally used in other contexts. Congratulations, that is true of most American slang terms. To draw an inference from that is original research. We don't "demonstrate" hypotheses in Wikipedia - no matter how obvious they may seem to you. We document what the sources say. No more, no less. --Scott Mac 23:11, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I have shown that it is used internationally and has been for at least 10-15 years, and even if originally a US slang, it has been co-opted on an international level. I've also posed a question, if the term "brat" were used exclusively by the US to reference military brats, please explain the terms "Scaley/scalie/scale-e brat" and "PAD Brat"? Those terms are used by the children of British military personell and have no US antecedent.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 23:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

You've presented a case, yes. That case may well be be correct. And your research in presenting that case is obviously extensive. My question is: ss this research original, or has someone else done this documentation and reached this conclusion first? If it isn't original then there's isn't a problem.--Scott Mac 23:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not a "case", it's the way things are. We don't need to cite every sentence, only those that are questionable/dubious. Those that are plainly discernable/provable, don't have to have individual citations. I don't know how long (or widespread) the term has been used in England/Canada/New Zealand/India/Australia, but it is incontrovertable that the term is used internationally and has crept into their lexicons. It is also incontrovertable that at least two derviations (pad and scale-e brat) have no US antecedent. Now if I were to argue that the terms scalee and pad brats were more common in the 1960s'/70's, then yes that would be original research. And yes, based on what I've seen, I suspect that to be the case (people who use the terms appear to be older). The international usage of the term, however, is merely acknowledging the fact that brat is used in other countries to denote children of military service members---it is easily discernable and verifiable. No "research" is required.

I am interested in seeing how this article evolves... as I have not seen enough reliable sources to merit writing a full article on the concept of military brats outside of the US that would not involve Original Research. (But I haven't really looked since I worked on the US subculture one.) Using Wertsch/Ender's books to talk about military brats in foreign countries is dubious at best (those were dealing with US brats and in Wersch's case Cold War era brats)---some countries don't move around as much, some countries the military member moves around while the family stays put, others don't go off to war as much, for others it is a constant state of life. I never felt like I could write a comprehensive article/definition that adequately answered those variances in military life.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 00:21, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah, Scott, I would consider it original research if this were based solely upon blogs/individual websites, but the fact that it has been used by major media sources and researchers elsewhere speaks to the usage. The fact that it has attracted not just a few hundred followers on websites, but that the India/Canada/British brat facebook groups have attracted thousands of followers speaks to its usage. If all of the facebook groups for India/Canada/Britian showed a few hundred followers and the US cite numbered in thousands, then that would say something. The fact that tens of thousands of non-US brats have joined various groups does say something about the usage outside of the US.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 02:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I think those are all great points. And I agree that the case for International use of the term is overwhelming.

I also think Balloonman is absolutely right that there is a variance of "mobility" in the lifestyle from country to country. The article might benefit from detailing (with sources) some of those variances, as well as highlighting commonalities.

I'm still pretty busy today but I'll say briefly that I have been able to dig out information on mobility among military brats (also called "Fauji brats" in India) The mobile lifestyle is internal to India, but still cross-regional and given India's diversity, cross-cultural in nature). Perhaps this is due to British influence, since British military brats have been very mobile, especially were so during the time of the British Empire (up to the 1940s) and the Indian military was previously a part of the British empire.

Canada, Britain, New Zealand and Australia also have degrees of mobility in the lifestyle. I don't know about the Philippines. Or Pakistan.

There are now two Filipino military brat subcultures, one has assimilated into the US military, (is multi-generational) and there is academic writing about it.

There is also a subculture of current children of the Philippine military.

I can totally understand how one could spend huge amounts of time on American military brats alone, there is a lot there to spend time on.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 00:48, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

That's your opinion. There are plenty more sources available as well, academic sources, news articles, literature, electronic media, government studiesTelemachus.forward (talk) 20:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

My opinion, or my interpretation of some sourced instances, is irrelevant - as is yours. We are not doing research. Is there a source saying this is an international term?--Scott Mac 21:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

When there are acceptable sources for referencing the use of the term in several countries then yes, that is proof of International use of the term.Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

No it's not. It's proof that it as been used on those few occasions, that's all. It does not prove that it is an international term at all.--Scott Mac 22:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Few?

98.245.148.9 (talk) 03:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Article Structure: Areas of Common Patterns Versus Areas of Difference

The article currently describes common-ground areas, but there should also be a section (or sections) that then outline (cited) areas of difference between "military brat" subcultures".

(In terms of structuring the article), here is an outline of similarities and differences that I have seen (in citation sources not yet posted to the article), including academic, news sources, etc,

Similarities: The primary common ground (in my citation sources) is "militarization of childhood" (in both positive and negative ways, as well as neutral ways). Along with this, (in the citations I have seen, not yet all added to the article), resulting "Feelings of difference" between brats and civilians are in citations I have seen, but have not yet posted, in many countries.

This could also be described as an international pattern of "military brat identity" in many of these countries.

This seems to be the common thread that justifies the article, or stub.

A secondary common ground (which has more variance) is mobility. It happens in a number of these countries, but at varying ranges in comparison to the USA, which is at the highest level and range of mobility--

Canada and USA are at the highest mobility extreme, with India at mid-level (by comparison) and Britain, Australia and New Zealand (current generation of brats) at the lower end.

Along with this are multicultural identities (Third culture kid patterns) that are described in a number of military-brat countries.

And there are also older British military brats who lived extremely mobile lives.

Differences A (few) more sections could be added on (cited) (and clear) individual differences. For example In India and Pakistan, I have seen academic journals and news articles that paint a wider gulf between officers corps and non-commissioned soldiers, than in more fully industrialized countries.

For example: The descriptions of the lives children of officers corps in India and Pakistan look more similar to American and British military brats, but the (academic and news) descriptions of non-commissioned Indian families are described as often struggling with Third World poverty conditions. There is also a great stigma (particular to India) on absent fathers (in the less educated classes, not the higher classes-- a cultural stigma goes on women who don't have men at home).

In the Philippines there is discussion of corruption in the officers corps and third-world poverty at the non-commissioned level (deeper than American poverty). Also there are a number of news articles reporting AFP (Philippine Armed Forces) pressing children into intelligence and dangerous combat support roles. (More a lower-rank-and-class phenomenon with again officer-corps looking instead much more like Western military brats).

Overall article structure: These patterns suggest an area-heading describing "Common Patterns" and then specific country sections that cover "individual country differences"-- under a second area-heading of "Differences").

Also, in-depth psychological research seems to be almost exclusively American, which is also very extensive, covering a very wide range of studies, certainly requiring the separate (already existing) article (along with the other already-existing descriptions of the US military brat subculture).

Telemachus.forward (talk) 08:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Boldface (above) only added for clarity.

Thanks!

Telemachus.forward (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. On the issue of pay for non-commissioned India soldiers, I need to do a little more reading to get a clear understanding. I'll get back to the discussion here.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 23:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem that you are going to encounter is that of Original Research. Again, I haven't researched this subject since originally getting it promoted to FA ca 2006/2007 so this might not be true today. But 4 years ago, there was almost nothing written about military brats in non-US countries. I actually could cite people lamenting the fact that cross cultural studies was impossible because nobody besides the US had adequately studied the subject. The only article that I was able to find was by Grace Clifton where he hypothesized how British Brats might be different from US brats, but his paper was pure speculation based upon the factors that he felts resulted in the specified outcomes. There was no solid research. Now that may have changed over the past 4 years, but unless you can provide sources documenting the differences AND how they affect people raised in those military environments, you are going to be dealing with a lot of wp:synthesis and wp:original research. Frankly, I am dubious, but as this is a work in progress and you're willing to put in the effort, I'm willing to see where it goes.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 06:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I should also point out, that most studies on TCK's that I've read further accentuate this point---several sociologist, namely Ann Cotterell, indicated that when talking about Military Brats as TCK's, you are almost exclusively talking about US Military Brats because very few non-US brats qualify as TCKs. Thus, using international research on TCKs to talk about their MB's will again be SYNTH and OR

Just to put a time stamp on it, http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201900,cd_max:Jan%2031_2%201940&tbo=p&q=%22army+brat%22&num=10 Keith Henson (talk) 21:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Time stamp? I don't understand.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a pointer to how long the term has been in used in books. Dates back to 1938 at least and probably much further. Keith Henson (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!

Telemachus.forward (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Balloonman, I just wanted to say that I appreciate your input, and the Wikilinks that you shared and have read both wp:synthesis and wp:original research carefully.

I already did understand these concepts but it was good to review them nevertheless.

One thing that has changed over the last four years is that a lot more material from other countries has been put onto the Internet. So more is search-able in the academic realm today than there was, even just a few years back.

For example: India has a very extensive body of (general) sociological research (by Indian scholars), and within this body there is work by Indian sociologists, on not only the Indian military, but also Indian military families.

Some of this work is more available through Indian (online) sources rather than Western (online) outlets.

On another point--

Expressions of "Indian military brat identity" (also called "Fauji brat" in India) are ubiquitous on the internet. Including mention of growing up with mobility-- (for example Indian military families do move around growing up, and have a strong and often even a fond sense of "military brat" identity, along with a sense of having absorbed military culture into their personal identities much like American military brats do).

I agree however that sources should be cited with an eye to avoiding wp:synthesis and wp:original research. Based firmly in wp:verify.

What I am not seeing is a Black-and-White pattern, though. It's not either "they are like us" or "they are not like us". Rather there seems to be a core area of commonality ("military brat" identity in India is a real thing, and it seems to have a lot in common with American military brat identity")--

But India and the United States are also two different countries with different cultures and different religious traditions. So there are areas of difference as well.

In any case I agree that working this into the article should follow these guidelines and should be cited with an eye to avoiding wp:synthesis and wp:original research. And be based in wp:verify.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 22:33, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I've been very busy with other things over the last few days, but something else that I forgot to say before is, I have (not) found any Overseas equivalent to Wertsch or Musil. But I have found enough to add dimension and support to what is currently here. But yes there is definitely more (today) about brats from other countries than was (previously) available just a few years ago.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 03:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

2009 BBC News Article Says that the British "Forces children" change schools up to 11 times while growing up. I am only focusing on this (mobility related) citation in the article, not agreeing or disagreeing with the headline.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 05:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the delays (I've been extremely busy), I have the citations from three Sociologists specializing in Indian Military families and also Indian "Army brats" (two of the sociologists use the term "Army brat" in their writing) and I'll have them in the next few days, (as time allows).

Citations also coming soon on a sociologist discussing Filipino military brats.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 07:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Notes

Telemachus.forward (talk) 05:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

.

Indian Forces Children (Fauji Bacchas)

Indian forces families also refer to their kids as Fauji Bacchas. Quite literally meaning Forces Children. DO let me know how I can contribute to the wiki — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cashmere lashkari (talk • contribs) 05:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Cashmere, welcome to Wikipedia. To contribute to the article you should start by registering a Username (of your choice) (see upper right corner of this page to register/sign in).

Once you have done that you may help to edit the article. Here are some tips--

1) You will see the word "Edit" above each section of the article and you may click any of those to start editing.

2) Rules of editing: Wikipedia articles follow rules very similar to writing a (simple, not advanced) college or university paper (you must provide footnotes that reference reliable sources for any facts that you claim). You may reference news or magazine articles, books or journal articles, or websites that have high credibility.

3) NOTE: You can freely create/author the wording of your own sentences, but you must then support the facts that you add with a (footnoted) citation reference (as shown below).

4) Here is how you cite a footnote (just as an example):

Lets say you want to add the following sentence (created by you) to the article: "Indian Army Brats are also called 'Fauji Bacchas'."

To add a supporting reference: (required to to prove your new fact), you then (after your sentence) add the tag "<-r-e-f->" (Without the dashes) followed by the information about the source material (authors last name [followed by a comma] then authors first name; title of article or chapter, name of book, magazine, newspaper or journal; then date published; then the name of the publisher; then [if a print source] what city and country published in).

You then must add the closing tag "<-/-r-e-f->" (again, remove all the dashes-- I am just doing that so it doesn't create a footnote here). This will automatically create a footnote and will also automatically add your reference info in the "Notes (or "References") section at the bottom of the article.

That's enough for a good start. But here are just a few more suggestions--

5) Don't worry too much about making mistakes--

It's not the end of the world to make a (technical Wikipedia-rules) error because there are plenty of editors watching the pages to correct you and guide you. So don't let not knowing all of the Wikipedia-editing-rules keep you from contributing, you will be quickly corrected if you make a technical mistake and then you can ask that editor more questions to get your material into the right "Wikipedia" form.

In terms of writing, it's not as restrictive as you might initially think. You still have latitude for what you write, so long as you support your facts with good citations/sources and keep the article in a "news-reporting" writing style (Reporting what is known and prove-able from citations).

The one key thing to always remember, though, is that you must always cite any new facts that you add to the article--

For example, knowing (first hand, from life) about "Fauji Bacchus" is not enough to support your adding it to the article-- you must first (as mentioned above) find a newspaper, or magazine article, or book or journal article that supports your claim that this term is widely used in India.

7) You don't have to go to the library to find sources: Many Newspaper articles, magazine articles and journal articles can now be found online, and you can add the "link address" to the citation (after all of the other info) to put that into a reference (between the <-r-e-f-> and <-/-r-e-f> tags [remove the dashes]).

You can even find the complete text of many entire books online, if you do a search in "Google Books" now fully available on the Internet.

8) Please also keep the main "theme" of the article in mind--

The International use of the term "military brat", and how this represents a life-style (way of growing up) and also a unique subculture. And also military brat subcultures in individual nations, like India.

The article is reporting on two general areas: A) What "Military brat" subcultures from different nations have in common and B) what are also the (unique) differences between these subcultures (what is different and unique to each nation).

So it's discussing both the areas of common-ground similarities between military brats of all nations and also the unique national differences (what is unique and different about the 'military brat' culture of each individual nation).

(That doesn't mean the theme of the article can't be changed)--

But that's where it is now, and you'll need good cite-able materials to change or modify the theme, and it must relate to the the title (according to Wikipedia editing rules).

How to sign your discussion area posts: One last thing, here (in the discussion area) you must always sign your posts with four tildes (four of these "~" in a row-- that will pull, and place, a "signature" from your Username.

However you do NOT sign your contributions in the front (main article) area (Wikipedia will still note you as the source contributor there, but adding four tildes, [four of these-- "~"], in the main article causes an error in the article)-- it is only useful (and required) to sign with four tildes (here in the discussion area).

Regards and again, welcome to Wikipedia,

Telemachus.forward (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. You can also create new sections in the article by typing "=-= Title of New Section =-=" (remove the dashes, and use only equal signs [I have included the dashes here to keep a new section, plus its headline, from being created]). Two of these "=" on each side (of the section title) create a larger section headline than three on each side.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 05:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Writings by Sociologists About "Indian Army Brats" / "Indian Military Brats"

I have been meaning to post these, here are some references, (writing by Sociologists about "Indian Army Brats" that I came across some time back). http://books.google.com/books?id=wA5yZfuJ4_cC&pg=PA72&dq=cohen,+army+brat,+India&hl=en&ei=GzImTYPGFoX4sAO20Mj6AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=army%20brat&f=false

(I found these in "Google Books", which has full-text online scans of many books and articles).

There is more out there as well.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 02:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I've also seen sociological and news writing about certain Indian ethnic groups with a strong Forces affiliation, and researching those often military-affiliated ethnic groups also runs up information on Indian military families.

For example, this book delves into the sociology of Indian military families of the Gurkha ethnic group (there is more out there as well). As I understand it, Gurkhas are North-Indian as well as some being Nepalese.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zmskAAAAMAAJ&q=%22IndiaN+army+families%22&dq=%22IndiaN+army+families%22&hl=en&ei=2ks6TaCsJJG6sQO818nGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw.

By way of example, here is another source on the military upbringing of Gurkha children: http://books.google.com/books?ei=RVY6Tff7K4LSsAOQ1-2BAw&ct=result&id=hChuAAAAMAAJ&dq=gurkha+upbringing&q=upbringing#search_anchor

Telemachus.forward (talk) 03:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Writing on Canadian Military Childhood

Here is another good cite-able source.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FdLalU6wCswC&pg=PA139&dq=%22military+childhood%22&hl=en&ei=Cmk6TdCBGoXCsAPV6qDHAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22military%20childhood%22&f=false

98.245.148.9 (talk) 05:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Writings on Australian Military Childhood

Book on the social history of Anzac (Australia-New Zealand Army Corps) families of war disabled veterans. Includes over 80 references to the affects on/and or lives of, military children living with a war-disabled veteran parent (including those with PTSD). The writer is a social historian (a sociologist and a historian)--

http://books.google.com/books?id=1LyiKxTWXGQC&pg=PA224&dq=anzac+children&hl=en&ei=OQA9TeOcNoassAOm89S4Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=children&f=false

Telemachus.forward (talk) 04:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Another Australian social history book that has passages describing the lives of Australian "army brats" (Note: although the title has the word "memories" in it, it's really an analysis of social history, by a social historian)--

http://books.google.com/books?id=XsAhAQAAIAAJ&dq=anzac+children&q=brats#search_anchor

Telemachus.forward (talk) 04:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. with the top source (children of disabled vets book) you have to dig down deeper below the linked citations to see the ones that are more clearly vet-military child related issues. There is also a lot of discussion of TR infection from vets affecting their children, but digging below those references gets to the other stuff.

98.245.148.9 (talk) 19:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Report and Study on Issues/Problems Encountered by British Service Children (Military Children) in Schools

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y7uDkk-xrDIC&pg=RA1-PA57&dq=%22forces+children%22&hl=en&ei=lhc9TaKiAoS8sQPitICYAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22forces%20children%22&f=false

Telemachus.forward (talk) 06:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Again (much like some other sources the sections above), it takes some digging into this report (below the apparent/immediately linked part of the source) to see the full extent of the relevant areas covered. Although not at the level of Wertsches or Musils work, it is comparable to some US DOD studies on different dimensions of UK brat life. However this British report (to Parliament) is rather narrowly focused on a range of education issues faced by mobile British brats (although it also does cover some bereavement-counseling issues and some other psychological dimensions of British Forces children populations). It also puts a number on the size of the (non-adult, or in-school) population at (approximately) 186,000 children and teenagers.

98.245.148.9 (talk) 19:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I forgot my password for my Wiki-username. I will try retrieving it soon, but for the time being, the IP listed here is also Telemachus.forward (my username).

Sorry, I just have a few minutes today.

98.245.148.9 (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2011 (UTC)