Talk:Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

Violation of WP:FRINGE

I don't think that every time there is a WP:FRINGE theory in the New York Times we have to mention it in this article. Has the scholar who espouses this view written an academic paper which establishes the Muslim roots of Jackie and published it in a reputable journal of genetics or is this just an unverified theory? Before we can answer these questions I do not think we should add this material in the article per WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 05:04, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I have to agree with Dr K here, as the article quoted has no footnotes and does not look very scholarly. Exceptional claims need exceptional proofs --Diannaa ^(Talk) 05:16, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

See my response below. I do not really think it is a grossly exceptional claim. In many parts of America including New York black people have made up a significant part of the population that they woul interact with whites is not such a hugely impossible thing. The article is hosted on the Yale website. It links back to the NY times and in the paragraph it discusses the specific episode with an embedded footnote, that is it makes specific reference to the specific episode of frontline where it occured and gave information on how to find the information (which is why no end notes appear. http://www.yale.edu/smhac/articles/family.htm is the website . "Since 1997, after it broadcast "Secret Daughter," a documentary about a mixed-race child given up for adoption in the 1950's, "Frontline" has been exploring the mixed ancestry of well-known Americans on its Public Broadcasting System Web site. One is Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, whose blood lines, according to the historian Mario de Valdes y Cocom, go back to the van Salees, a Muslim family of Afro-Dutch origin prominent in Manhattan in the early 1600's. If any branch of your family has been in America since the 17th or 18th centuries, Dr. Berlin said, "it's highly likely you will find an African and an American Indian." It actually quotes 2 different professors. So far I have provided professors or academics all of whom are saying kennedy had black ancestry from leading universities and publications like Yale, Harvard, New York Times, Frontline and Dr. Berlin, a professor of American history at the University of Maryland and the founding director of the Freedmen and Southern Society Project, so either they are all quacks, quack schools or she had black ancestry. The proof of muslim ancestry was pointed out by professor cocom "Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, whose blood lines, according to the historian Mario de Valdes y Cocom, goes back to the van Salees, a Muslim family of Afro-Dutch origin prominent in Manhattan in the early 1600's. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.18.213 (talk) 05:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

O yeah and more published book also say the exact same thing. Light, bright, and damned near white: biracial and triracial culture in America By Stephanie Rose who is a master in anthropology http://books.google.ca/books?id=BDEDuqIaKEYC&pg=PA39&dq=jacqueline+kennedy+black+ancestry&hl=en&ei=Z6NDTe-MNMK88gap-dX6AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false on page 39 she documents the history of kennedy's black ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.18.213 (talk) 05:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis black ancestry

Here is my statement that Dr.k keeps deleting "Jacqueline also had black muslim ancestry like Barack Hussein Obama '"Frontline" has been exploring the mixed ancestry of well-known Americans on its Public Broadcasting System Web site. One is Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, whose blood lines, according to the historian Mario de Valdes y Cocom, go back to the van Salees, a Muslim family of Afro-Dutch origin prominent in Manhattan in the early 1600's." According to Yale and the New York Times [1] "

You said that it had too much content from the site so i reduced it to "According to Yale and the New York Times and a frontline documentary Jacqueline had black muslim ancestry like Barrack Hussein Obama [2] "

Then you claimed it sounded like a fringe theory. I don't know if Yale, the New York Times and Frontline are considered to be fringe sources but I do not see any evidence of it I must admit. I think the onus might be on you to provide some proof here that Yale, New York Times, Frontline and its reporters are making up fringe theories about the former first lady, because these 3 sources are widely used in wikipedia. Further you better have evidence that Mario de Valdes y Cocom, an historian of the African diaspora, and Professor Hershkowitz, or Tim Beard, former head of the Genealogical Department of the New York Public Library who all are experts in their field and believe this are quacks or pushing fringe theory http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/vansallees.html "Anthony and Abraham van Salee were the ancestors of the Vanderbilts, the Whitneys, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and Humphrey Bogart.

They were among the earliest arrivals to 17th century New Amsterdam. In a number of documents dating back to this period, they are both described as "mulatto"."

yes it would also mean that Professor Joe R Feagan who is a Harvard Professor with a Ph.D in sociology and a pulizter prize winner who was the former head of the american association of socilogist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Feagin, and these many awards and honors Awards and honorsNomination for Pulitzer Prize (Ghetto Revolts) Scholar-in-Residence, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, 1974–1975. Sociological Research Association, 1986–present. Phi Beta Kappa Alumni Scholar (Baylor University) Gustavus Myers Center Outstanding Human Rights Book Award, 1995 (Living with Racism) Gustavus Myers Center Outstanding Human Rights Book Award, 1996 (White Racism: The Basics) American Sociological Association, Oliver C. Cox Book Award, 1996 (White Racism: The Basics) University of Florida Research Foundation Professor, 1997–1999 Honorary Life Member, Phi Kappa Phi Honor Society, 1999 Robert and Helen Lynd Award for Lifetime Contribution to Community and Urban Sociology, 2000 Special Award, Section on Racial and Ethnic Minorities, for Racist America and lifetime of work in racial and ethnic relations, 2002 Choice award for Liberation Sociology as one of best books of 2002 ASA Section’s Distinguished Undergraduate Student Paper Award named for Joe Feagin (2003) University of Illinois Center on Democracy in a Multiracial Society, Symposium on the Research and Contributions of Joe Feagin (April 2004). Choice award for White Men on Race as one of the best books of 2003. Sociologists without Borders (SSF) Distinguished Professor (2005) Harvard Alumni Association (HDS) Rabbi Martin Katzenstein Award (2006) Sociologists without Borders (SSF), the Richard Wright Award (2006) Center for Healing of Racism Ally Award (2006) Fellow, Center for the Study of Poverty and Inequality (Stanford University), 2006- Butler A. Jones lecture, Cleveland State University (2007) [edit] Administrative and editorial positionsVice-President, Society for Study of Social Problems, 1986–87 Chair, ASA Section on Racial and Ethnic Minorities, 1994–1995 Member of Council, American Sociological Association, 1995–2000 Editorial Board, Comparative Urban and Community Research Editorial Board, Sage Racial and Ethnic Relations Series Editorial Board, Race and Society Governing Board, Southern Regional Council, 1997–1998 President, American Sociological Association, 1999–2000 Editor, Perspectives on a Multiracial America, Rowman & Littlefield, 2003–present

is pushing a fringe theory in his book Racist America: roots, current realities, and future reparations By Joe R. Feagin when he said on page 218 "Whites with African ancestry have included prominent Americans. Among them is Jacqueline Kennedy Onasssis, who has been celebrated in the media as a paramount symbol of white womanhood"

http://books.google.ca/books?id=0stwPeRea2MC&pg=PA218&dq=jacqueline+kennedy+black+ancestry&hl=en&ei=Z6NDTe-MNMK88gap-dX6AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jacqueline%20kennedy%20black%20ancestry&f=false

I do not think this is a fringe theory seems more like a historical fact because the experts keep saying it is the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.18.213 (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Please see my post in the section above. Also please keep your posts brief. I don't think parading all these credentials really adds anything to the arguments presented. The issue here is to establish how widely accepted are the views that Jackie has Muslim roots. How many peer-reviewed publications have accepted the papers of the authors you mention and how widely accepted is the book you link to among those in the scientific community. Also please learn to spell my screen name correctly. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 05:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I responded to your above post. Well the accusation was that it was a fringe theory, I am pointing out the people who are providing this information are not fringe people, fringe organization and are not using fringe history it is actually widely excepted and fringe theorist would not have such wide creditials, ie when was the last time alex jones got half these credtials awards, etc. The view that she is the descdent of muslims seems to be quite wide spread among anyone who has studied to the subject, I HAVE been unable to find a paper/book/article that says this is untrue and the van Salees were not muslims at least historically. Also we are talking about Professors books, genealogical records and master books. They are peer reviewed and all of them provide genelogical soruces and proof that is consistently accurate "According to the documentation that people like Professor Leo Hershkowitz of Queens University have sifted through, it would seem that Anthony van Salee never converted to Christianity. His Koran, in fact, was in a descendant's possession until about fifty years ago when, ignorant of its relevance to his family's history, he offered it for sale at auction" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/vansallees.html

Basically you have 6 academic sources all saying the same thing. Either all these professors, masters, and organizations are wrong and fringe theories or they are not wrong. If they are not wrong they are credible sources and ought be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.18.213 (talk) 05:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I hope you realise that there are thousands of scientists in the fields of anthropology and genetics. The opinions of six scientists only get their validation through publication of relevant papers in peer-reviewed journals. So far I have not seen a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal and the books you cite are of unknown acceptance within the scientific community and thus they cannot yet establish notability of the subject you are attempting to insert into the article. The notability of such subject is therefore questionable at the moment. But let us wait for more opinions from other interested editors who would like to comment. When WP:CONSENSUS forms then we will be able to better evaluate the facts you are proposing to insert into the article. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 06:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Dr.K., and note that perhaps one of the reasons this addition is met with skepticism is its author's insistence on including the phrase "had black muslim ancestry like Barack Hussein Obama" (in his long version and then again in his short version) in this biography of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. Sounds not only fringe, but agenda-driven. This does not belong here. Tvoz/talk 09:54, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes there are thousands of scientist in anthropology and genetics and none of them have refuted the claim, well except Dr.K. I have shown you multiple books, documents from Yale, from a Harvard Professor, and a Professor at the university of Maryland. None of their claims are fringe because they provide proof to their claims and it seems to be widely accepted in the field, I have yet to see one article that says this is untrue. This is widespread knowledge. Most of the article is not based on peer reviewed documents, because historical figures are written about not by scientist but largely by journalist, professors, biographers and genologist. If that was the case the entry would be about a paragraph. How much information on Barack Obama comes from peer reviewed entries, probably close to nil in the article. Almost the entire Early Life section is based on [3] Davis, John H. (1995). The Bouviers: Portrait of an American family. National Press Books, which is not peer reviewed, are you going to take that out? By the way the book by the Harvard Professor who says Kennedy has black ancestry is peer reviewed, so I will add that in their and leave out the muslim like Obama part until we can resolve that issue. Further the widespread appearance of the proof of her black muslim ancestry seems to have not met any resistance by her biographers, in fact Dr. Berlin pointed out anyone who's ancestors has been here as long as the Kennedy's (1600s) would be bound to be mixed with black or indian, and its true because back then those people were the majority or sizeable minority in many places. Genology is not very complex, if someone is black named Van Salee and you are their descendant you have some black ancestry. If that person was muslim, then you have a muslim ancestor.(99.238.18.213 (talk) 04:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC))

Ah yes. The famous Yale website. Unfortunately the "Yale" link you provided: http://www.yale.edu/smhac/articles/family.htm is not really from Yale directly. It is from http://www.yale.edu/smhac a separate website which happens to be hosted on the Yale U domain but it is a student website. As far as your calling out my nickname all the time, please realise this is not about me. Don't make this personal. So please stop the personal comments. You are conveniently missing the fact that user:Tvoz and user:Diannaa agree so far with me. So it is not only me who disagrees with you. As far as your other claims it is not established to a rigorous academic standard that Van Salee was indeed a Muslim or even related to Jackie for that matter. There are no documents provided by the academics you mention other that their assertions. Believe it or not we are trying to build an encyclopedia here not an "Educatedguessapedia" or "Rumourpedia". We demand way higher standards from our sources than mere musings without rigorous proof. Your information simply does not pass muster here. And that includes your "Yale" source. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 05:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Nontheless the website is still a Yale website, it is unclear if it is a professor or a student who has published it. Those users sound suspiciously like you which is why I have not commented much because it seems like the same person. So yes you appear to be the only one in disagreement, and the others only disagreed with what they said was politically charged language saying muslim like obama, which I agreed to remove. Wikipedia already claims on the Van Salee page that all the Kennedy's from her line are desdendents of the Van Salee's so I will add it in for consistency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon under notable descendents. Perhaps the reason why the documents are not on the web is because someone would have to naturally scan in such documents to a computer and they appear to be held in that New York Library or Meuseum where that Professor who made the claim comes from, that is you would have to go to that Meseum in New York if you disagree with the Professors claim because they will not let you photocopy the document (I called in). I will put it is believed by many academics and scholars- the 6 i listed- that Kennedy has black dutch muslim ancestry through Jan Janszoon and his son Anthony Janszoon van Salee. This is true, and it is notable and therefore should be in the article. Even if you reject the Yale source there are 5 other sources, 2 of which are original research, in no other article was it required that a professor post the entire documents of geneology for any person because anyone willing to go to the library can view these but it is often not allowed to reproduce these documents because of copyright issues and the fact that people do not go to library's when they can get the thing on the net. It is really up to you to prove the professors are being dishonest because no academic source supports your view, wiki already claims Onassis is related to the Van Salees -which is why I was trying to put this article in line with the others, this passes all the test of wiki and the rest of this article with flying colors. Looking at the reference list none of those references are peer reviewed, not a single one, we have entire sections from one book or in some cases even an article of suspect demeanour. I do not see why it is so unreasonable that JKO would have black ancestry. Doesn't mean she black, but it is important to mention.