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Nemerle

Nemerle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Non-notable programming language. The only hits on Google for this language aside from the main website are blogs discussing syntax and a question or two on StackOverflow. Notability tag for nearly 2 years. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More than 100 questions in StackOverflow where Nemerle is quoted. --Sergey Shandar (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. What the hell are you thinking about ? Nemerle is non-notable ? Bullshit ! Man, just check the language http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4561524/f-vs-c-vs-nemerle check the project activity. I say : "Don't do it !" You has absolutely no idea about Nemerle. You ! totalitarian programmer, Take your dirty hands off the project. I like Nemerle and sure you can't believe me. So here are the links you did not found :
  • Keep. OK, I've got the idea. We can start from Nemerle. Then we can delete Pure, Haskell, OCaml, SML. We definitely get rid of Miranda, Clean and Curry. All these languages don't seem to be popular enough on StackOverflow. Come on, how the hell Nemerle is non-notable? This is one of the most popular non Microsoft languages on the .NET platform. And one of the most interesting. Try to finish your education first before deleting the languages that you don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorov2 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Most popular, most interesting do not establish notability. Haskell, OCaml, and SML are definitely notable, as established by reliable, verifiable sources. I'm not sure what your argument is. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 15:06, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment. Microsoft Research is not reliable for you? Or Wikipedia? Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia where people can learn something new including programming languages that they've never heard before. And you are not the one to talk about Nemerle reliability as you didn't even bother to carefully check which "reliable sources" for this language are truly available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.200.24.190 (talk) 15:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment. No, coming out of Microsoft Research does not automatically establish notability. I could put an article about my own pet language on my personal website and say "Princeton University, one of the most prestigious universities in the world, is not reliable for you?" Logical fallacies do not establish notability, inclusion on Wikipedia does not automatically establish notability, reliable and verifiable sources establish notability. If I didn't carefully check which "reliable sources" for this language are truly available, then please, link some here. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 15:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment. If materials about your "pet language" are official materials published by Priceton University than this is a notable source according to the Wikipedia definition. Article from MSR is an official material. There are also a lot of articles about Nemerle published in press:

http://rsdn.ru/article/nemerle/NemerleIntro.xml http://rsdn.ru/article/nemerle/nemerleMacros.xml http://rsdn.ru/article/nemerle/SimpleReporter.xml http://rsdn.ru/article/nemerle/Amplifier.xml http://rsdn.ru/article/nemerle/NemerleStingFormating.xml http://rsdn.ru/summary/4531.xml and so forth.

There are a lot of references in press: http://news.google.com/archivesearch?&as_src=-newswire+-wire+-presswire+-PR+-release+-wikipedia&q=%22Nemerle%22 Nemerle is officially supported by Mono (which I hope is enough notable for you?) Nemerle is included in several Linux distributions Nemerle is not even an academic language, it is used in industry.

All these things does render a language as notable according to Wikipedia standards.

I hope that you have good intentions in mind but what you are doing here is *vandalism*. There are a lot really *interestring* academic programming languages here which will likely fall under your "non-notable" criteria. As a result Wikipedia will loose a lot of interesting content.

I am convincing you to stop playing in this "notability" game. Otherwise we will have to report your actions as abuse - and yes, we will have a notable support for such statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorov2 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

            • Comment. Not at all convincing. Your rsdn.ru links seem to be a tutorial. Your news.google.com link references sources talking about Mono or F#, with passing mentions to Nemerle. Mono is notable, but notability is not inheritable per WP:INHERIT. I'm not sure how "included in several Linux distributions" and "not even an academic language" are arguments in favor for this article. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 16:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep. Christopher you aren't right. Nemerle is a new word in a computer science. Nemerle it is widely known in Russia and Poland because developed by Russian and Polish developers. Nemerle has are links from http://elibrary.ru/ - Russian index of scientific citation. User:VladD2 — VladD2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Keep. Nemerle is one of the most promising languages. Although it is less popular than mainstream languages, it has remarkable first derivative of popularity. (I cannot explain it in English, so I have tried to translate it into math, IYKWIM.) And Nemerle seems to be far better than any other language in .NET family due to it's clarity and expressiveness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.58.51 (talk) 20:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC) — 109.165.58.51 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  1. Nemerle MS Research
  2. Extensible Pattern Matching
  3. Mono languages
  4. Ubuntu package
  5. Debian package
  6. Gentoo ebuild

If you need more you can search for more. And my point is :

  • How the hell you can tell about programming languages notability if you really just a student, Hell how much experience about languages you can have to desire what languages should be here ?
  • So you say it's interesting only for developers and I answer. Hell, yes ! Sure programming languages is interesting for developers ? Maybe for painters ? or for 'housewifes' ? Not man. Programming languages is for programmers.
  • You say "Covering these languages on Wikipedia makes it harder to find *interesting* programming languages". So what is *interesting* programming languages for you ? Basic ? Pascal ? Oh god ! Nemerle makes it harder to find Basic for you... Poor boy , I am sorry for you !

--nCdy (talk) 12:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment. None of those links are reliable sources. Random slides from a talk? A paper cited 29 times, according to Google Scholar, that isn't even about Nemerle? A directory of all the Mono-compatible languages? Free software package directories (that aren't specifically about Nemerle)? None of these are reliable, verifiable, independent coverage of the subject, and they surely do not establish notability of this language. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 15:06, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment. You know what ? There is no point to discuss with you about it. Your answers is not so smart. So all that we can say : Your action is WRONG. And I really don't care what you gonna do, delete all other languages and keeping freaking around Wikipedia. We can not control all goddamn inadequate kids in the world.

--nCdy (talk) 9 February 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 08:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC).[reply]

  • Keep. The language has been noted and accepted by the .NET community. Google shows about 40k search results for Nemerle, Bing about 30k. There are a lot of articles, blogs and discussions about. Are you going to claim that all of them aren't independent? Since the language is open-source and free for both commercial and non-commercial use, all facts listed in the wikipedia article ARE verifiable accordingly to the wikipedia rules. Also, again accordingly to Wikipedia rules, not each and every but only questionable articles should be attributed to a reliable, published source. I don't know why are you going to eliminate this page, but you're making an obvious mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.121.61.192 (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC) — 78.121.61.192 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep. Only future will show will this language be popular or no. So we must discuss this language at as many places as possible. It will be better if more and more people will know about this language and Wikipedia can help in it. User:Dvorkinp — Dvorkinp (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


  • Keep. Christopher, from what I see you are the only guy so far who wants the article on Nemerle to be deleted. A lot of people on this page already voted for keeping it alive. You are definitely not a majority here. Please stop fruitless argument and switch to more important tasks I'm sure you have. Thanks. Enerjazzer (talk) 06:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Conditional keep. Even though Christopher has produced some valid arguments for his case, I believe this article should be kept. Nemerle is one of the few actively developed languages for .NET outside Microsoft's ecosystem. There are at list two published books that talk about the language, and these are listed on the page. There are research papers published that talk about the language. The page should stay up, as the project is gaining momentum. I'd say, it should stay up for at least a couple more years to see if goes to oblivion or continues to exist. Dmitriid (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC).[reply]


  • Conditional delete. I really hate to step back from my usual protectionist deletion attitude, but in this case I don't want the "Christopher Monsanto, you are the only one who wants it deleted" argument to be used anymore here, along with lots of "KEEP"s from RSDN-invited Nemerle fans, who are mostly completely unaware of the Wikipedia notability policy. If this language is indeed notable, the language experts should bother to learn the notability policy and provide the sources. Taught in multiple high schools universities / discussed in reliable sources / covered by multiple printed books from independent authors (I've counted two yet, which barely fits the "multiple") / covered by articles in multiple notable printed magazines (RSDN mag fits perfectly, but it's just a single magazine, with almost every article written by the same person)? Come on Nemerle guys, find a bit more sources, improve the article and it'll stay with you forever! Improve the Wikipedia rather than go personal upon Christopher and cry for admins! Honeyman (talk) 19:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, may be my English is not so good but I know the difference between words "delete" and "enhance", "improve". If the article requires enhancements, there should be another tag. I think if the tag "delete" has been made with false comment such as "only question or two comments on stackoverflow", it is just provocation which is only make people angry.--Sergey Shandar (talk) 22:48, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • So isn'it kind of blackmailing, making people to write more and more books and articles to allow them to keep their article? It is strange but it seems you are going personal yourself on Nemerle fans right now. The article is medium good. Though it is still a good playground for future improvements. Their personal attack on Christopher is an expressive result of his own ridiculous actions. Nemerle has books, articles, notable importance and also notable attention from the .net community. These sources ARE reliable. Christopher didn't answer the question about his definition of reliability. Deletion of that article is not only a violation of Wikipedia rules but also a damage to Wikipedia spirit. Voting for Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by Habilis⊕ 20:59, 9 February 2011 — HabilisRus (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
      • No, this is not any blackmailing, this is how Wikipedia works. You write an article and you prove it worths to stay, in such terms that even a Biology freshman understands that this programming article is worthy and notable. Maybe there are lots of books and articles in the wild, but the article itself barely mentions any. The sources may even be reliable, but at the moment there is bordeline little of them mentioned in the article. Maybe some people desperate to keep the article even write more and more books and articles, that would be just better for everybody, but I believe it takes quite a time to book to be published, so it may not be in time for this AfD discussion to close. But at the moment, if the community is great and the coverage is wide, I believe it wouldn't be a problem to find some more notable references and add them to the article. Keep it cool people, nobody here wants any direct harm, even to the poor victim article, people just want the Wikipedia to be a bit better. Particularly, this article to be improved to the minimal keepable level, unless deleted. Too bad it took quite a time and an AfD proposal for it to happen. Honeyman (talk) 22:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. The only one person who crying for admins right here is Christopher itself. What are you talking about? BTW, in case of your awareness about Wikipedia notability policy, can you give us an exactly definition of "reliable source" term? Christopher didn't, although we asked him directly :xz:--Kochetkov.vladimir (talk) 06:27, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I recall there was a mention of “abuse report” above while I believe no reasonably experienced Wikipedia editor ever considers tidying up the articles and keeping the Wikipedia clean a “vandalism”. Honeyman (talk) 22:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Christopher. As all we are know, you have got an own project "Frenetic" - the programming language which built on top of functional-reactive paradigm as well, as Nemerle supports it 'inter alia'. So, our project is directly concurent to yours one. This is the fact and it's confirming by such notable sources as your web profiles. In my opinion, your destructive activity is looks like very shabby act directed against our project as concurent product. Can you prove an independency and sincerity of your intensions via reliable sources with supporting evidences? Or may be you just pursue one's own interests? Seems like this, unfortunately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kochetkov.vladimir (talk • contribs) 21:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC) — Kochetkov.vladimir (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    • Mentioning “concurrent” (while probably meaning “competitive”), you make it think that Nemerle is a priced commercial system. I'd take back your words at your place, as the Wikipedia notability requirements for the commercial products/companies are tightier than for the free/opensource systems. Which one of the two definitions better fits Nemerle? (it is not clear from the article, and while you are here you could probably make the world better and mention in the article whether it is free and/or opensourced). Also, you are mentioning the functional-reactive paradigm, but while were are discussing the Nemerle article here rather than the pet projects of some Wikipedia editor, you should probably notice that the article doesn't mention in any way that Nemerle supports functional-reactive paradigm, I hope you understand what I mean… As you've mentioned Nemerle as “our project”, I assume you are likely a Nemerle expert who could really help to improve the article rather than chit-chat on the AfD page. The votes won't help the article to keep, the article improvement will. Honeyman (talk) 22:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Christopher. I'm afraid I have to raise a question about your ban due to vandalism and efforts to discredit the Wikipedia Policies in case you can't explain your activities reason and prove good faith right now.--Kochetkov.vladimir (talk) 06:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. It seems Christopher is discriminating Nemerle purely based on its visibility in English speaking sources. Nemerle is mostly developed in Russia/Poland, so it would be worthwhile for somebody with Russian language knowledge to check notability of Nemerle, which could then be easily assured. As can be seen from responses here, it's a very well-known and active project in Russian/Polish CS academic and enthusiast community. The language needs more English exposure not less and what you are doing runs very much against the stated goals of Wikipedia project. --Novitk (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC) — Novitk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    • Since the invention of Google Translate, the Russian sources are acceptable in the English Wikipedia if they are reliable at all (proven during a number of other AfD discussions). For example, the RSDN Magazine articles (which are already mentioned in the article now) quite fit the definition. The only problem at the moment is the amount of sources. Why all the Nemerle fanboys keep coming here and writing unsupported "keeps", while finding a dozen of other reliable articles/books would close the topic forever? If the language is indeed notable, it wouldn't be long to find them. Or is it? Honeyman (talk) 22:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • The language is a darling of RSDN (probably #1 CS/IT site in Russia) with a forum dedicated solely to its development and evangelism. It's a practical language at the early stages of development, not a scientific toy. While the formal sources are not numerous, please be aware that the language changed owners/maintainer recently. I would also think the current interest (forum posts and commits) and the weight of the current maintainers (RSDN) should give a clear indication of notability. --Novitk (talk) 23:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Being a pet project for a huge CS/IT site, having a personal forum, changing the maintainers frequently, having a 7-digit number of commits and even more of forum posts, containing the interesting and unique language features, giving two millions results on Google lookup for “$insertnamehere$ programming language”, being so promising to expect a first place in TIOBE language rating in a couple of years... I have to remind that neither of this seriously counts for the Wikipedia notability. Assuming a good faith in all the voters coming here and giving these as arguments to “keep”, I truly believe that all of them have read the Wikipedia notability guidelines (WP:NOTE, also maybe WP:NSOFT though one need to pay attention to the difference between the official guideline and the unofficial essay) before voting here, because all the high-profile developers are able to find and investigate the information to defend their viewpoint themselves, so assuming a good faith I believe that all of the irrelevant arguments to protect Nemerle notability which are made by these people after they've read the documents are made because they… err… probably… forgot some of the details. In any case, I would like to mention the WP:NOTE and WP:NSOFT again, together with the WP:AFDEQ and WP:AFD#How to discuss an AfD to any people who needs to refresh their knowledge in the Wikipedia processes. Honeyman (talk) 12:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I can also mention Nemerle 2 project which is a successor of Nemerle. So Nemerle language is a thriving one. --Habilis⊕ 03:10, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This article definitely has to stay in Wiki. Nemerle is the most advanced new generation programming language of today, and I am sure it will be the first one that will implement the relatively simple way to develop custom DSLs. People should know about Nemerle and I think Wiki is the most appropriate place for that. It seems to me that you are a programmer. However I think it is strange that you are working on your own “secret” programming language, but you do not understand the importance of what Nemerle is. Chris, I can’t bring myself to believe that you would act in such a primitive way for the sake of competition. For your sake, I hope that the deletion of the article will not be the most “notable” contribution in your life that you will make for programming languages. NoAccountNameAvailable (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC) — NoAccountNameAvailable (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • RSDN Magazine articles should not count as independent reliable sources as all of them are written by the person who is both the magazine editor and the Nemerle key developer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.41.211 (talk) 13:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • By your logic MSDN Magazine should not be considered as a reliable source for any Microsoft products. NoAccountNameAvailable (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Surely they should not be, they are not independent of the subject or third-party. And this is not "my logic" but the well-defined Wikipedia policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.149.41.211 (talk) 17:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Most of the books and articles about new languages are written by authors or developers of the languages. Regarding the RSDN Magazine, the magazine is an official Russian scientific magazine. It has an editorial board with many experts (professors, PhDs, aspirants, MS MVPs, and professional programmers). RSDN is the biggest Russian community of software developers. So your statements are harmful to RSDN’s reputation and should be considered defamatory. VladD2 (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Notability is not inheritable -- just because a professor says the word "Nemerle" in a sentence does not mean Nemerle is notable. Come on, this is an interview about *Scala*, not Nemerle. Why on earth would this source establish notability for Nemerle? Christopher Monsanto (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. So, what sources do we have at the moment in the article?
1. RSDN Magazine publications. They are almost perfect for the reliable sources, but seems they are indeed not third-party/independent, as required for the reliable source: they are written by (seems) User:VladD2 who is both a developer for Nemerle integration into Visual Studio (though maybe not the "key Nemerle developer", as suggested above) and the technical editor of the magazine. One article is written by a separate person but the fact that one of the developers is the editor of the magazine really spoils the whole party.
Comment. I disagree. According to this logic, if I am an editor of a reliable source and I make a contribution to something I like, then my source automatically becomes unreliable. There is something wrong here. NoAccountNameAvailable (talk) 21:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2. "Ml Programming Language Family: Ml, Standard Ml, Objective Caml, Mythryl, F Sharp, Nemerle, Alice, Standard Ml of New Jersey, Concurrent Ml" paperback. Bordeline good, cause being a 100-page book covering 10 different languages leads to simple math expression with an unpleasant conclusion.
3. "Nemerle", Betascript Publishing. Perfect source, need more this good ones!
4. MS Research articles. One barely mentions Nemerle, and another is the document from the 2005 workshop. There are lots of workshops, public meetings and conferences going all over the world under the patronage of various major companies, so not every project honored to be represented on one worths attention. Does Deluux startup worths its own Wikipedia page? — but this project was among the ten ones selected by the famous Y Combinator business incubator in 2007. Does (LAX) Logilab Appengine eXtension worths a page? — there was a lecture on it during EuroPython 2008. I hope you get my point.
In total, at the moment we have a single good independent book and 10 pages in another one, and a bunch of articles which are not independent. Nemerle people, if this is all what we have at the moment, why are you trying to impress somebody by the votecount on this page, by the words how great and popular this language is, by the size of the community and other irrelevant stuff, while you should be looking for real good sources instead? If the language is so objectively popular as you assert, why you just don't find a dozen more sources and mention them here? Come on, check the printed "Xakep" magazine, check fprog.ru, check Computerra (while it was printed), check Murzilka (maybe it did have an issue fully dedicated to the Nemerle macro programming, dunno). There should be something, I cannot believe that the language with so fuzz inside the community has so little coverage outside. Honeyman (talk) 20:33, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Xakep" magazine? You joke? It's magazine for very young hooligan. Computerra: http://www.computerra.ru/offline/2007/676/309151/, http://www.google.ru/search?q=site:computerra.ru+Nemerle&hl=ru&prmd=ivns&filter=0 fprog.ru for the time present is not a real magazine. But it' good idea. I think fprog.ru won't refuse the publication about Nemerle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VladD2 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh... fprog.ru: http://www.google.ru/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=site:http://fprog.ru+Nemerle VladD2 (talk) 22:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I appreciate you taking the time to make this a reasonable discussion, Honeyman. However, as another commenter pointed out, Books LLC titles are reprints of Wikipedia articles, so they are never acceptable as a source. Betascript publishing also sells Wikipedia articles -- every book by them has the authors "Lambert M. Surhone, Miriam T. Timpledon, Susan F. Marseken, Mariam T. Tennoe and Susan F. Henssonow". They do not peer-review or edit external submissions (not even proofreading). Betascript is an alt. name for VDM publishing -- "VDM's publishing methods have received criticism for the soliciting of manuscripts from thousands of individuals, for providing non-notable authors with the appearance of a peer-reviewed publishing history, for benefiting from the free contributions of online volunteers, and for insufficiently disclosing the free nature of their content." "American writer Victoria Strauss characterized VDM Publishing as "an academic author mill"." In other words, neither of the books listed are acceptable as even sources to Wikipedia articles, let alone evidence of their notability. I don't think Nemerle has a *single* reliable source to back it up, let alone the multiple, independent, reliable sources necessary to establish notability. Christopher Monsanto (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Christopher, what you so worry? Your opinion here have already heard. I think that it is necessary to be very prejudiced or not to go into details of question to agree with you. VladD2 (talk) 22:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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