Talk:4′33″

Precursors

A letter to the New York Times shortly after Cage's death indicates that Harold Acton conceived of the idea of a totally silent piece of music in a prose work, "Cornelian" (1928). This may deserve mention in the "Precursers" section. Bill Jefferys (talk) 01:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm sorry this hasn't been noticed earlier. I've added Cornelian to the section, citing the book the NYT reader referenced. --Jashiin (talk) 15:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Missing section

Where is the section on the critical response? I'm sure at least some observers called this what it was, namely, total bullshit. 98.82.21.78 (talk) 00:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Background and influences section

In the background and influences section there's a paragraph treating Cage's claims about his experience in the anechoic chamber skeptically. All of it is unsourced. I tagged it but I was hoping someone has some ideas. If no sources are forthcoming then that stuff needs to go as it's clearly unencyclopedic OR. SQGibbon (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I guess if no one has anything I'll go ahead and remove those lines. SQGibbon (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Facebook group

Whilst Googling Cage, I noticed there is a Facebook group which (and I am not sure how serious they are about this) is called "John Cages 4.33 for Christmas no.1 2010". Is it worth adding a bit to the page about this? I found it rather amusing and kind of interesting in a slightly facile way. What do people think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dead celeb (talk • contribs) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree; this has since been noted by The Guardian, which should constitute it being mentioned. [1]
_~~NaN 10:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I also think that the current Facebook campaign deserves a mention in this article, as there seem to be loads of reliable sources writing about it. I might have a go at including a section on it later, but, if anyone else would like to, here are some of the sources that I've found: The Guardian; The Telegraph; The Sun; The Sun (again); The Daily Mail; MSN UK; The Irish Times; Yahoo! Music; Scotland on Sunday; Kuar; Exclaim; Big Top 40; [2]; [3] A Thousand Doors (talk) 02:27, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Not so sure about all this. It seems like it's only pop-cultural reference. What I don't see is how this advances the reader's understanding of the piece or of Cage in general. I don't see future Cage scholars even mentioning this incident much less analyzing it to any degree. Like I said, it's just a bit of trivia. Further, the use of 4'33" seems more of an ironic statement and/or an attempt to pull off a prank. In scanning the sources I didn't see anything to indicate that this was a celebration of the piece, John Cage, or 20th century classical music. If it were any of those things then comparing it to a similar campaign to game the "Christmas Number One" program undercuts that assertion. Putting all this together I don't see that it deserves mention in the article, but even if consensus comes out in favor of including it, and in its own section, I definitely do not think it should take up as much space as it does. This is giving undue weight to a passing pop-cultural phenomenon that has little or no value to the article in terms of educating the reader on the significance of the piece. Just because something is well-sourced does not mean it has to be included in Wikipedia. SQGibbon (talk) 03:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I drew a lot of inspiration for this section from the similar "Killing in the Name" article. I felt that the section had relevance to the article as it shows the cultural significance of the piece. Maybe it'll be worth waiting to see what the results of this "campaign" are - if it crashes and burns, then obviously the section should be removed. But if the piece makes the UK Singles Chart, then that should at least be mentioned in a 'Chart performance' table or something. A Thousand Doors (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the "cultural significance" of the piece is being illustrated by what is essentially a prank. Furthermore, in the case of the other song the band became involved whereas with 4'33" neither Cage (who is dead) nor the Cage Trust have said anything about this. Whether it belongs in the article is one thing, whether it deserves its own section and so much space is another. I think that waiting to see "if it crashes and burns" completely misses the point. Either it's something that helps illustrate the piece of music or it isn't. Whether the campaign "succeeds" or not is irrelevant to understanding Cage's work. Also, just having looked at the Facebook page, what recording are they using? I didn't see anything listed. This makes the entire thing seem even more sketchy. SQGibbon (talk) 17:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Plus, the wording for that section is confusing, and this sentence in particular is appalling: 'A recording of the piece by Cage Against the Machine was recorded by several musicians including Suggs, Imogen Heap and the Kooks, who took part in a recording session on 6 December.' A) it barely makes sense, B) the three incidences of the word 'recording' make it painful to read, C) the citation says nothing of the sort, and mentions none of the above artists. I can barely work out what it means, let alone if it's accurate...81.178.134.25 (talk) 15:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I removed that section as you are correct, the citation does not support the text at all. I'm guessing that whoever made the edit copied in the wrong reference. SQGibbon (talk) 16:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Performance by Bob Dickinson

Contentious text copied from article:

On December 5, 2010 at 2100 hours (GMT), an international simultaneous performance of Cage's 4'33" took place involving over 200 performers, amateur and professional musicians, vocalists and artists. The global orchestra, conducted live by Bob Dickinson via video link, performed the piece in support of the Cage Against The Machine campaign to bring 4'33" to christmas number 1 in 2010. Made up of many of the fans of the official facebook page promoting the Cage Against The Machine campaign (facebook.com/cageagainstthemachine), the performance was also recorded by engineers at performances across continents This was the first time Cage's piece had been performed at simultaneous venues worldwide. Full documentation of participants and their audio/video input at a multitude of global locations have been collected on an event site[4] for future reference. A second performance is due to take place to coincide with the release of the Cage Against The Machine charity single on Sunday 12th of December 2010, with many more expected to take part. Links to the event can be found at the official Cage Against The Machine facebook page (facebook.com/cageagainstthemachine)

These all appear to be primary sources thus there is not a reliable source establishing the notability of the event (needs to be reported by a reliable source such as a newspaper). The claim that this was the first such performance also needs a reliable source to back that up (otherwise it's original research). I do not doubt that this event happened but that it was notable. Until a reliable secondary source establishes notability I do not believe this paragraph belongs in the article. SQGibbon (talk) 18:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the paragraph, as it currently is, relies far too heavily on primary sources. But I think that enough secondary sources exist to justify its inclusion in the article, for example: The Independent, The Guardian, BBC News, Metro, Spinner and Yahoo! Music. Hopefully, these sources should be enough to verify any contentious material about the performance. Given the pedigree of acts that have come together to produce this recording, I think that it qualifies for inclusion in the article. Although, given also its link to the Facebook campaign, maybe it would be better placed for inclusion as part of the section below it. A Thousand Doors (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

These aren't the same things, though, are they? The original paragraph was about a world-wide collaboration whereas what you've linked to (at least the two I checked) are about a different recording. I could be missing something though. SQGibbon (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're right actually. My apologies, I should've checked the sources a bit more carefully - I assumed that, since they were both connected to the Facebook group, that they were the same thing. I've had a look for some reliable third-party sources regarding the Bob Dickinson performance, but I can't find any, so I guess that the above paragraph should be omitted. I think a mention of the other recording would be appropriate though. A Thousand Doors (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 8 December 2010 (UTC).

OK, now that a source has been found for the Dickinson performance (establishing notability) it should be combined with the the Christmas campaign section. Then all of it needs to be seriously trimmed down. It's a prank and a single recording and doesn't need over 600 words to describe it. Obviously this latest addition needs to have the inline citations converted to references, some of the prose toned down, and less detail. Update: Right now all this text is just under 25% of the total text in the article. That's a clear case of undue weight for a prank and two recordings related to the prank. SQGibbon (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering whether it'd be worth having information about the campaign in a separate article under the name Cage Against the Machine (currently a redirect to 4'33"), then just leaving a brief summary in the "Performances and recordings" section of this article. I might start drafting it out at some point. A Thousand Doors (talk) 14:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if such an article would be able to survive the deletion process. Perhaps better would be an article dealing with all the efforts to get a song to the top of the Christmas chart like the Rage Against the Machine campaign, the "Never Gonna Give You Up" attempt the year before that, and a competing campaign this year as mentioned here. I'm not positive that even that article would stand up to the deletion process but I think it would have a better chance. It might also be the case that putting all the information in the Christmas number one single page would be best. SQGibbon (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Re. 4' 33" I note that in 'Talk' the performance/recording has been described as a 'prank', however, I must take exception to this as further links have been provided to recent comments made by Laura Kuhn director of The John Cage Trust and these, surely, must be acknowledged in an objective manner alongside the link given to The Telegraph article by noted writer and critic, Norman Lebrecht. I do take exception to the rather subjective dismissal of the contributions made to this resource of material on 4' 33" and the performance/recording as a 'prank'. This appears as the expression of a personal opinion on the part of SQ Gibbon who although having an interest in Cage, with all due respect, is not an acknowledged commentator on Cage's oeuvre. An editor should remain neutral and not be judgemental. Unfortunately, this has not been the case with SQ Gibbon. The notable sources clearly counter what SQ Gibbon views as a 'prank' due to the performance/recording taking place in a 'popular culture' context and I now question the authority of SQ Gibbon to continue in an editorial capacity in relation to this article. To whom could I direct my concern (obviously I would provide my full contact details)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.37.185 (talk) 21:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.37.185 (talk)

By the way, it's "SQGibbon" - all one word; it's not a name, just a random set of letters. Anyway, I answered all this on your talk page before noticing that you had posted it all here (in addition to my talk page). If anyone is interested it's there or if someone wants to copy it over here that's fine too. SQGibbon (talk) 22:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Quite interesting that you have removed my criticisms of your judgemental stance? I give up. Quite simply, I no longer have confidence in your understanding of Cage. I've exchanged correspondence with Laura Kuhn on what you describe as a 'prank', and I can assure you, she definitely does not see it in this light. You even reference her comments. But did you read the very final paragraph? Anyhow, you're entitled to your culturally straight-jacketed opinion, that's fine by me. To describe the global performance as a 'prank' is a million miles from the truth . For now, I leave you with these words of Cage: "I have nothing to say, I am saying it, and that is poetry". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.37.185 (talk) 22:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I've responded on your talk page. SQGibbon (talk) 22:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of the Kuhn reference from the 4'33" article

(Note: this is copied verbatim from a message I left on another editor's talk page and I'm not bothering to edit it anymore here). In no way was my removal a slight against Ms. Kuhn or the Cage Trust. Let's look at the text I removed "Additionally The John Cage Trust, and in particular, Laura Kuhn, executive director of the Trust, have documented the Cage 4' 33" campaign taking place in the UK." All this is is another source documenting that the recording happened. Nothing in this text added to the understanding of the recording (or more importantly to the subject of the article 4'33"). For instance the bombing of Pearl Harbor was probably documented by thousands of newspapers all over the word but we don't need to cite all of them if they're essentially saying the same thing. We are justified in just citing some of them. Likewise the text about Ms. Kuhn added nothing to the section so removing it doesn't hurt anything. If you want to add her back as an additional reference then that's fine (or I could do it if you're unfamiliar with the process) but I don't see that we need to mention her acknowledgement of the recoding of the text itself. If you think that mentioning her acknowledgement adds to our understanding of then I would be interested in your argument noting that the text I deleted was not an endorsement of the recording just a mention of it. SQGibbon (talk) 00:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of the Beethoven Virus reference from the 4'33" article

I added the reference to the popular K-drama show, "Beethoven Virus," where there was a highly significant scene in which 4'33" played an integral role. Now, I cannot find an "official" citation in which the scene is shown. Obviously, it's a scene in the show, and the main BV site does not have a play-by-play of the entire drama like DramaBeans. My question is how to include the link from the show, if there is no "official" site that designates that particular scene? I can link to the actual production site, but it doesn't contain the particular context of the actual scene like DramaBeans. The revision for that particular scene is located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3&diff=413212550&oldid=413205385 Thanks for your help!