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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Timrollpickering (talk | contribs) at 00:12, 14 March 2011 (→Category:Isle of Man geographical coordinates: close - delete). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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March 6

Category:Films considered box office bombs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Films considered box office bombs - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Pretty subjective, and therefore not amenable to categorization. According the box office bomb, a bomb is "a film for which the production and marketing costs greatly exceeded the revenue regained by the movie studio", but how much loss we need to meet the "greatly" standard is not clear. Setting an inclusionary standard by drawing the line at any particular dollar value would be arbitrary. A list already exists at List of biggest box office bombs. Category:Box Office Bombs was deleted in 2006. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. The list is a much better way to collect this info, being one of the rare occassions where WP:CLN doesn't apply. Lugnuts (talk) 07:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Unclear definition, any need is better served by the list. —Stepheng3 (talk) 18:25, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hidden Champion

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Hidden Champion - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This is essentially an arbitrary category, based mostly on a business/marketing theory espoused by single individual, Hermann Simon, rather than a notable and recognized type of company. Dbratland (talk) 21:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Herman Simom originates the Idea, that's right, but it has lots of references as you can see in the Hidden Champions article and with some more serios research. -- Tasma3197 (talk) 21:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to know which sources specifically use this term, and what their definitions of it are. Most of your citations are to open Wikis, like German Wikipedia. These footnotes should be removed from Hidden Champions, since they fail the criteria for WP:RS, and replaced with citations of the actual sources. Other than citing Wikipedia, there are articles such as one from Business Week [1], which defines "hidden champions" as having "superior growth, financial strength, global reach, and consistent innovation, according to a study carried out by the Bonn Institute for the Study of Medium-Sized Companies". This is completely different from Simon's three criteria (market share, revenue, and public awareness), and only underscores that while the term "hidden champion" might be somewhat current, the definition of the term is arbitrary. --Dbratland (talk) 23:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the newsweek more seriously, you'll find that your citation doesn't give a definition but a description of typically ones. The difference between you may find out reading the article. A few sentences later in newsweek you find a reference to Herman Simon. You should be happy to find a business therm defined that precise because mostly it is not. -- Tasma3197 (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The list in the article is already a big problem given that half of the references are to foreign-language Wikipedia editions. I don't think this should have a category until the idea and its application see a wider consensus. Mangoe (talk) 23:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, if you prefer (hidden) interwikies instead of proper references: you can find that now. May be you are interested in some more sources (in German)? A a series in DER SPIEGEL, Financial Times Germany, former German Chancellor Schröder, University of Stuttgart having a graduate concept with hidden champions, Master program refers to hidden champions, Handelsblatt, one of the most serious German business magazins, etc., etc. about 290,000 Google matches with "hidden champions"-- Tasma3197 (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the potential spam magnet. But there are lots of categories you can tell the same about. -- Tasma3197 (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Agreed. I've done quite a bit of work on one of the pages recently added to this category and don't see how it's a useful categorisation at all. The critreria are far too subjective and it's clearly being used for spam.Letsplaydrums (talk) 11:16, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Isle of Man geographical coordinates

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: result. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Isle of Man geographical coordinates - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Not a useful category. If someone wants to see all Manx coordinates, a complete report can be obtained using [2]. The category is incomplete and more difficult to maintain. Besides, shouldn't ALL geographical features (i.e. Category:Geography of the Isle of Man have geographical coordinates? Stepheng3 (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Black peoples in art

Propose renaming Category:Black peoples in art to Category:Black people in art
Nominator's rationale: Rename. People is already plural. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Rename. While there are instances where such double plurals are correct (for instance, to refer collectively to two or more societies of "black" people) the category in question is not such an instance. —Stepheng3 (talk) 19:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • That might reflect a systematic bias of editors. I suppose indigenous Australians and Melanesians in art should be in a separate categories, because the art is not closely related. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:26, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Limbu family names

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Limbu family names to Category:Limbu-language surnames
Nominator's rationale: Rename to match the convention for similar categories. The other option is to delete since the sole article in the category is in fact a userspace page that would possibly be deleted if it was sent to AfD. Pichpich (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Disputed biographies of living persons

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: result Category:Disputed biographies of living persons to Category:Disputed biographies of living people. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Disputed biographies of living persons to Category:Disputed biographies of living people
If not, then rename:
Category:Living people to Category:Living persons (over category redirect)
Category:Possibly living people to Category:Possibly living persons
Category:Missing people to Category:Missing persons (over category redirect)
Category:Biography articles of living people to Category:Biography articles of living persons
Category:Biography articles of living people who have requested removal to Category:Biography articles of living persons who have requested removal
Nominator's rationale: These categories should all be consistant - either all "people" (preferable), or all "persons". עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:23, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, the category had two pages in it until I removed one because the tag was three years old and the editor who was entering the disputed information has not been heard from in three years. The other page is in a template's archive.
I do not think the matter is worth the effort that has already been expended much less the effort that would be involved in a rename, with its accompanying redirect. JimCubb (talk) 02:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American military personnel by war sub-category standardizxation and proper inclusion

Relisting for further discussion on the remaining categories Previous discussion here

The result of the discussion was: A mix. There's consensus and convention to rename:

However the American Revolution and (especially) the American Civil War categories are more problematic because of inconsistent use of the term "American" in the structure. They are best relisted for further discussion. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the current name of the ex-parent category exists there is a high likelyhood someone else will return the CSA soldiers category there, and the civil war category is currently named to make the return of CSA soldiers likely. My new plan is actually to remove Category:Military personnel of the American Civil War from this tree and create the category Category:American military personnel of the American Civil War as a subcategory of the category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:09, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I feel Category:Military personnel of the American Civil War should be at the top of a tree, with primary sub-cats for Confederate military personnel and Union/American/United States (pick one) military personnel. I just browsed around a bit and decided the entire ACW hierarchy is a gigantic cluster-f**k, exacerbated by the ambiguity of the term "American"; in particular, "American Civil War foos" can be taken to mean the all-inclusive "Foos of the American Civil War", or the more ambiguous "American Foos of the Civil War". Check the parent categories of Category:Confederate States Army officers for an example of why I described the situation as I did. Fat&Happy (talk) 05:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confederates should not be eliminated from this category structure, any more than the Confederacy is to be eliminated from the History of the United States. There was a rebellion, some Americans joined the rebellion and later they stopped. They were still Americans, regardless. Hmains (talk) 03:48, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"later they stopped"? No, later they were defeated and surrendered, but during the war they were not part of the "American" (United States) military, any more than during the Revolutionary War, the United States military personnel were a sub-group of Category:British military personnel of the American Revolutionary War, even though they were British, there was a rebellion, and some of the British joined the rebellion. Agree with nominator. Fat&Happy (talk) 04:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "American military personnel" is being used to mean "people in the military forces of the United States". If an American goes and joins the Taliban forces they may still be an American but they are clearly not "American Military personnel". This is also the case with the CSA forces.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fat and Happy, I was also getting the sense that there is an unjustified non-distinguishing between sides. We could try to avoid some confusion by calling one side Yankees, but that would probably be a bit much for members of US (Colored) regiments who in many cases never marched north of the Ohio/Potomac. The same could be said for many of the more of less white residents of Louisiana and Arkansas who supported the Union cause.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Various -- Unionist and Confederate personnel of the American Civil War should be kept separate. Care should also be taken that British (and American loyalist) personnel of the American War of Independence do not get merged into an American (seceding states) category. More Generally, WP uses "United States" as an adjective, because Canadians and Mexicans are also Americans. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Category:American people by occupation and its myriad subcats would tend to disagree! -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. As, of course, are Guatemalans, Tierra del Fuegans, and everybody in between. As well as, if we follow the British – European example, Cubans, Haitians and a host of other islanders. But for whatever reason (historical dominance; brashness; the difficulty of pronouncing "Unitedstatesian"?), "American" is understood pretty much worldwide to apply to the U.S.

      This part of the discussion, though, makes me support keeping "United States Military" as the prefix for these categories in preference to "American Military", since as a corollary to U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, etc. it is less ambiguous in its reference to the military itself rather than the nationality of individuals.
  • Note there are only four wars mentioned. The Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, WOrld War I, World War II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iraq Wars and maybe some other conflicts all use "American". Beyond this there is Category:American military chaplains and a whole set of other subcategories of the overall Category:American military personnell. I made a nomination to rename the whole category to use United States instead of American, but it was opposed (by one person, but no one else said anything), and since American was already the majority position in the categories, I just went with the change. The name of the country is "the United States of America" sort of like there was "the United Provinces of the Nethelands". Both assert that they create a union of the identified land. To make things worse in Brazil they are the United States and so insit on calling the country that includes Detroit and Chicago to "United States of the North". In the United States people sing "I love my land America" and "America the Beutiful" and do not intend to include Mexico, let alone Canada, in the purvey of the song. However, as I hope I have made clear, I really do not care what the result of this discussion is, we just have to agree on a univeral set of terms for all the subcategories. The Civil War and the American Revolution are a bit tricky, but the War of 1812 and the Boxer Rebellion should not be. It should also be remembered that a man born in Japan who served in the US military during World War II belong in Category:American military personnel of World War II (or whatever it ends up being named) while a man who graduated from high school in Hawai'i but then went to join the military in Japan which his parents had not been to since they were little children and subsequently was involved in the bombing run on Pearl Harbor (I know there was at least one case that specificly fits this description) belongs in Category:Japanese military personnel of World War II. The question is what military were the people in, not what their "ethnicity", "nationality" or even "citisenship" was. Thus, this is not exactly an analogous sub-category to most Fooian fooers categories. This is technically Fooers of the Fooian Foo. That is people who were x in the Fooian Thing. Thus maybe Personnel of the American military during Conflict X would be a better form. However Category:Personnel of the American military during World War II just seems a bit akward. It might eliminate some of the ambiguity. Thus Category:Personnel of the American military during the American Civil War would be fairly clear that CSA Soldiers do not belong. Some may say "is not the double use of American redundant", I would say "no more than Category:Spanish military personnel of the War of the Spanish Succession or as we would not have to make it Category:Personnel of the SPanish Military during the War of the Spanish Succession.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:13, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Timrollpickering (talk) 12:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC) [reply]

Drainage systems of Australia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Drainage systems of Australia to Category:Drainage basins of Australia
Nominator's rationale: The parent categories all refer to “Drainage Basin” and many (perhaps half) of the ariicles and subcategories refer to "Basin”, though several refer to "Division”. Hugo999 (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The category, as it stood at the time of proposal, was not fit for re-naming. I've taken the opportunity to put a few categories and articles into the parent category of Category:Endorheic basins of Australia. The remaining sub-cats and articles now meet the criteria for drainage basins and so the re-naming can proceed. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Most of the articles in this category relate to drainage divisions, rather than drainage basins.[3] This should be perhaps be renamed Category:Drainage divisions of Australia, though I'm not sure what the parent category should be, and a new subcategory created for Category:Drainage basins of Australia. Melburnian (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Query Would it not be accurate to say that, in effect, each of the 12 Divisions is no more than a grouping of things that are themselves drainage basins? If so, is this any different to grouping the rivers of the French Riviera and the rivers of the Catalan Region into a parent category of drainage basins of the Mediteranean? The Australian category would contain articles describing how the basins are organised, as opposed to containing sub-categories of articles of how they are organised. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Although I find the placement of divisions problematic, the nuts and bolts off this move will be the deletion of the not quite right and ambiguous category title Category:Drainage systems of Australia and create the validly titled Category:Drainage basins of Australia so I have withdrawn my opposition.Melburnian (talk) 10:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Possible bogus articles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Any article which may possiblyt fit here should be tagged with a {{hoax}} tag. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Possible bogus articles - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete- Duplicate of Category:Wikipedia suspected hoax articles, but the latter is better named. Empty, but a project category that might become empty from time to time so didn't want to C1 it. VegaDark (talk) 08:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:WikiProject Massively multiplayer online games templates

Category:WikiProject Massively multiplayer online games templates - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: This WikiProject is gone. Its category contains only a template which belongs under the watch of WP Video Games, and a template which is at TfD. This category is no longer needed. — This, that, and the other (talk) 03:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alumnae of women's universities and colleges

Propose renaming either
Or
(Note that Hollins University, St Hilda's College, Oxford, Trinity Washington University, Vassar College and Wheaton College (Massachusetts) all admit men to at least some courses so "alumnae" would be inaccurate. Note also that different country categories use different approaches for Alumni of Foo and For alumni.)
There's never been any consistency on whether to use "alumni" or "alumnae" for the former students of all-female universities and colleges. In Latin "alumni" is the plural for either all male or mixed-gender groups, "alumnae" is the plural for all female groups. However English generally doesn't have such a distinction and incorporated words tend to take English rules.
There's also no consistency by country with these categories; both lists contain institutions in India, the United Kingdom and the United States.
Since there are more alumni than alumnae categories, and we can't say for sure that all alumns of a women's university/college are still female, my preference is for Or - Rename to alumni. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to "alumni". In a way, using "alumnae" for some categories creates an additional burden on users (who are adding the category to an article) to know which schools are all-female and which are not. I don't think creating or maintaining the distinction is worth the hassle. (Whichever is chosen, we should use category redirects on the alternative forms, which should help.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to "alumni". As an alumnus of Wellesley College, of course I have a personal stake in this: using "alumnae" for graduates of a historically women's college that also has graduated male students renders me and others like me invisible. Since it is impossible to determine which putative women's colleges have students and alums who are men (presumably trans men in most cases, like my own), and which don't, the simplest solution is to use the gender-neutral "alumni". SparsityProblem (talk) 01:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to "alumni". Schools change their decisions on whether they're single gender. Let's use a word that doesn't.--Mike Selinker (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the existing tag of "alumnae" on Calcutta's women's colleges.The Kolkata based colleges, Bethune College, Lady Brabourne College, Loreto College have always been all-women's colleges, and there is not the slightest possibility of their being gender neutral institutions any time soon. Thus, existing nomenclature is appropriate. Patoldanga'r Tenida (talk) 09:02, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to "alumnae of ..." as per first suggestion when it is an all-female intake. Alumna/Alumnae =accurate for females. Alumnus/Alumni = inaccurate. The definition is clear in both Websters & Chambers dictionary. An encyclopaedia should reflect terms accurately and not fall for the temptation of being illiterate for the sake of simplicity. If we have problems using borrowed Latin terms then we should use an English term where one exists. E.g. Graduate is equally good and does not need declining. Ephebi (talk) 16:24, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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