Talk:List of common misconceptions

Please read before proposing new entries A rigid consensus on inclusion criteria for this list does not exist, but any proposed new entries to the article must at least fulfill the following: The common misconception's main topic has an article of its own. The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception. The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources. The common misconception is current, as opposed to ancient or obsolete. If you propose an entry that does not fulfill these criteria but you still think should be included, please include your rationale for inclusion.

Blue ice

incorrect, there is one model of european aircraft that does flush waste directly out of the plane, but only when crossing sea. I suggest it be changed to reflect that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.248.117 (talk) 18:56, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

DES (talk) 09:11, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

"Common misconceptions" in evolution

I contest almost everything what is described as "common misconceptions" in evolution. Most of these are definitely not common misconceptions but rather religious-like beliefs by certain groups in the U.S. only. Nageh (talk) 08:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

This is an inherent problem with this article, and more items should probably specify among what population they are common misconceptions. For the (mind-numbingly astounding) misconception about humans and dinosaurs, this could maybe be fixed by removing the first sentence and rephrasing the item as follows:

According to the California Academy of Sciences, around 41% of U.S. adults mistakenly believe humans and dinosaurs co-existed.[103] The last of the dinosaurs died around 65 million years ago, after the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event, whereas the earliest Homo genus (humans) evolved between 2.3 and 2.4 million years ago.

In this form, no claim is made about adults outside the US.

Since there is such a lot of focus on the evolution-creationism "debate", surveys might exist on other of the items too, and they may be rephrased to give information about who these misinformed individuals actually are. Unless a source can be found that establishes that it is a "common misconception" that evolution is "just a theory" for example, it should be removed. This demand for sourcing obviously applies to all items on this list, and I anticipate that several items will be changed and/or removed as sources are sought and/or found. Dr bab (talk) 11:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The second sentence of your suggested re-write also needs to be sourced to a source talking about it being a misconception, otherwise the content is in violation of WP:SYN. Active Banana (^bananaphone

Is it really? I thought SYN is if you state a conclusion that's not stated in either source. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this depends on how we can understand 41% of americans. If we allow that "41% of americans believe..." is equivalent with the statement that "it is a common misconception among Americans that..", then the second sentence can be seen as "flavour", or "additional information" which I don't see can be a problem. However, we are running back into the "percentages-to-common" conversion problem. What if the source said 27%, 13% or 2%? I guess that what Active Banana claims is WP:SYN is that we have a source that says 41% of americans believe X", and another source that says "X is wrong", but we don't have anything that says that "X is a common misconception". It is the (correct) conclusion we deduce based on the two pieces of information. Dr bab (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The main problem with this part is that one source is cited, and it relies on one group of people's beliefs. One could easily say that "41% of Americans CORRECTLY believe..." One cannot call something a misconception if there is no proof for either side.

By that standard we could not include anything on the list. There are misinformed people who believe anything, for example that the earth is flat. Presented by any kind of evidence, it is very easy for these kinds of people to claim "that is just one side of the argument", as if these things were a matter of opinion. We must go with what is the main stream view of the matter and keep out fringe beliefs and hokum. Otherwise we might as well include the common misconceptions that earth has not been visited by calypso dancing cyber gnomes from outer space or that gravity is nothing more "than a theory". Dr bab (talk) 07:20, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Obama

I concur with this edit.[1] This item was added during the crazy period when 3 high traffic web sites in a row mentioned this article. Now that things have slowed down, I think we might need to take a critical look at some of the items that were added. In my opinion, this item is more a conspiracy theory than a misconception. It's appropriate for List of conspiracy theories article (where I'm pretty sure, it's already mentioned). A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:57, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• I added it, and the sources call it a misconception that more than 60 million people have. I also recently saw an article about this that said the belief wasn't just among tea party type people who "choose" to believe the misconception, but a good portion who believed it were democrats or African Americans, proving it is an actual misconception, not just a group of people who choose to ignore the truth. I'll have to see if I can find that again, but either way it is properly sourced as-is. I wouldn't be opposed to include additional information such as that some believe this misconception is propagated by his political opponents, should a reliable source be found that says that, but as long as it's sourced I don't think we can pick and choose and say "well, yeah, it's a common misconception, but..." Unless you're saying it isn't actually a common misconception. And it's sourced specifically as a misconception which 20-24% of Americans have (20% would be more than 60 million people) so if you aren't considering that "common" then we are going to have to have a discussion about what constitutes "common". And if you are arguing that it isn't a misconception, we have reliable sources that say it is, so you are going to have to provide equally reliable sources that dispute that. And, even if you did find that, I would still consider that worthy of a mention on this page that some sources consider it a misconception while others dispute it is a misconception. VegaDark (talk) 06:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

If "20% of americans believe..." is the same as "it is a common misconception that.." then I guess it is also true that "41% of americans believe.." also means the same? (look at the point about evolution above). Where do we draw the line here? Conversely, if we remove the Obama item, then we should also remove the dinosaur-item?

What bothers me about this is that we will end up removing what in many ways are the most verified items: the items that actually rely on a survey and thus makes the "commonness" nice and quantified. Whereas if something is described using the ambiguous term "common misconception" with no further sources or elaborations, then we can include it as reliably sourced. I'm sure there are items on the list that are held by fewer people than 41% of Americans for example. I understand that we can't easily define a percentage limit for "common", but this nonetheless bothers me.Dr bab (talk) 06:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this matter is heading towards one where we could say that it's a common belief among non-Americans that Americans are stupid. If official Americans sources publicly say he is not a Muslim, yet Americans still "believe" he is, it's hard to come to any other conclusion, unless it IS politically driven, then it's not a misconception, is it? It's dogma. HiLo48 (talk) 07:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of many Americans in question not paying attention to/not being aware of the public sources stating he is not Muslim, not so much distrusting the sources and choosing to believe he is a secret Muslim. At least I hope that's the case for the sake of the country. VegaDark (talk) 07:45, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this highlights the difficulty of properly classifying content of a political or religious nature. HiLo48 (talk) 08:02, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

How about adding that to List of conspiracy theories#US Presidency instead (with a "Main article: Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories" line similar to the "Main article: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories" line that's there now), and then adding List of conspiracy theories to the See also section of this article. Would that be a good compromise? 28bytes (talk) 17:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with adding it List of conspiracy theories. I don't think a link in our See Also section is necessary. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

It's been added back.[2] I don't think there was an consensus to add this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

On the contrary, I don't think there was a consensus to remove it. See the discussion below where multiple users are making an argument for its inclusion. VegaDark (talk) 18:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

There is clearly still a discussion underway, here and at the bottom of the page. Not a friendly move just sticking it back in. HiLo48 (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

VegaDark: The way WP:BRD is supposed to work is that you can boldly add the item, but if it's been reverted, then we proceed to discuss the change. Only after consensus has been reached should the item be restored. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

As stated above, "This item was added during the crazy period when 3 high traffic web sites in a row mentioned this article" - It's basically been in there since then (over a month?). I think this isn't the case of me adding something and someone quickly reverting it, and me adding it back, it's the case of something that's been in the article for a while and someone out of the blue removes it after no clear consensus to do so. Additionally, before I originally added it I mentioned it first on the talk page and there was no opposition to it. Thus, I think the "status quo" is to keep it in the article until consensus deems otherwise, not to remove an item that's been in there probably more than a month now and only re-add it once consensus deems it is appropriate. I'm mostly concerned that everyone who seems to want to remove this wants to based on it essentially being a "manufactured" or "willful" misconception where nobody arguing this has actually provided a reliable source stating that. Right now the only reliable sources that have been presented say it is a misconception that 20-24% of Americans have. As of now any and all assertions that it is manufactured by Obama's political opponents or a willful misconception is conjecture and original research at best. I think it's a huge double standard to require items to be reliable sourced to add, but based on a whim of someone asserting something without sources backing them up gets to remove an item. Also, even if we get a reliable source stating that this 100% is a manufactured or willful misconception, that doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be included in the article. There's no consensus that such misconceptions do or do not belong either way, and there's an ongoing discussion below. I don't think simply reverting (I'll note at this time that this was an inappropriate use of the "revert" function, as well, as that should only be used for vandalism and not good faith edits) my edit was very productive. I won't re-add it again until consensus decides one way or another, but I will say I think it is inappropriate to remove it at this time before consensus decides one way or another. VegaDark (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

You're missing the point that the reason why it wasn't quickly reverted was because of all the contant changes and edit requests. In any case, I'll bet it was reverted out. Probably more than once. I'll look it up when I have more free time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the item needs to stay. Its a common misconception in the US that fits into the article well. I don't see what the difference is between including a misconception among 41% of males from California, and 21% of Americans. The list is incomplete, we know that: I don't see the need to make "only the most common misconceptions!" part of the article; how do you quantify that? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I have an editing question. Is it necessary to have "who prays every day", (though it is mentioned in the article)? Isn't that part of being devout? As a devout Christian myself, Lord only knows I pray all the time... I know it is only a minor issue in the grand scheme of Wiki-life, but it caught my eye. Thanks!

Proof that 0.9r = 1

It might be a good idea to add a simple proof that 0.9 recurring equals one, rather than simply stating it as fact. A simple proof is that:

10*0.99999... = 9.999999...
9.99999... - 0.999999... = 9
Therefore 9*0.99999... = 9
9/9 = 1
So 0.99999... = 1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.126.186.107 (talk) 23:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary. It's properly sourced. This is not a math article. Cresix (talk) 01:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, there is a link to the article, that is sufficient. I don't think any individual item should be any longer than this one already is. Dr bab (talk) 07:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thirded. If the reader is curious to learn more, there's a "main article" link they can follow. 28bytes (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I have a different concern about this item. I'm not sure it can be called a common misconception when most of the people who allegedly have the misconception have never actually thought about it before the question is posed in some study of mathematical understanding. If you ask people to guess about something that they've never heard of before, and they guess wrong, that doesn't mean that they had a misconception before you force them to guess.Ccrrccrr (talk) 14:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this is an important point. Can we hold misconceptions based on a lack of information or must it be based on a presence of misinformation? Dr bab (talk) 11:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

For that item, we have sources that directly say it's a common misconception. That's all that matters. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with two different aspects of that argument. Firstly, I don't think we have airtight evidence from the sources that it is a common misconception. "Many people find it hard to accept this simple fact" is not the same as "many people think it is false". it is true that we have a source that uses the term "common misconception", but I'm not sure that the author of that statement had a solid basis for making it. And what it seems we have the most solid information on is a study showing that people often get this wrong when posed the question. That means that they didn't figure it out correctly, not that they were walking around thinking incorrect things about it before they were asked.

The second aspect I disagree with is the "that's all that matters" statement. There's all kinds of nonsense that can be found in lots of sources. As editors, we need to be critical readers of sources.

Ccrrccrr (talk) 02:22, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

We will rarely (perhaps never) have "airtight evidence" that any misconception is common. I think editors are on thin ice if they try to determine whether an otherwise reliable source "has a solid basis" for stating that a misconception is common. If we have to debate for every reliable source how much of it is "solid basis" and how much is "all kinds of nonsense", the debate will be endless and nothing will ever be added to the article. Wikipedia has guidelines for what is considered a reliable source; usually that works fairly well. If by "critical reader" of sources you mean does the source fit Wikipedia's standards for reliabiliy, and do the statements in the article accurately reflect what's in the source, I agree with you. But if by "critical reader" of source you mean which parts of a reliable source is "nonsense", I think that usually will be an unworkable endeavor. If a source is reliable, the usual procedure for challenging information contained in the source is to find another reliable source that contradicts it. So rather than us debating whether the information in the source has a "solid basis" or is "nonsense", the task for anyone wishing to dispute the source is to find another reliable source that disputes it. I orginally opposed inclusion of this item, but with a reliable source clearly stating that it is a common misconception, I must find contraditory evidence in order to challenge it. Cresix (talk) 02:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Cross-checking sources often solves such problems. I don't think its ours to judge, on our own, what part of a source 'has solid basis', but it is important to make sure the source has their facts straight. If two or more sources came to the same conclusion independently or by using the best available information, that is when you can rest easy. There's no harm in finding secondary sources if individuals have concern. Of course, its no one's obligation to find more than one credible source. Perhaps that should change in order to improve Wikipedia's reputation as a reliable source. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 08:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

My issue was not with the credibility of the sources. My issue was that the hypothesis the sources support is "if you ask people to figure out this question, they come to the wrong conclusion." To me that is irrelevant to what I think is the criterion for inclusion here which is whether people are already going around thinking something that is false about this. That's a subtle point, and perhaps it appears that I am playing games to avoid playing by the rules here. But I would point out there's nothing in the Wikipedia guidelines that says that a given fact has to be included in an article just because there is a reliable source for it. Ccrrccrr (talk) 22:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Hair regrowth.

I dont think the source for the hair regrowth item is a scientific or otherwise researched source. It is almost a counter "myth" that shaved hair does not grow back thicker....Is there any source which shows measured results. I have seen a person who had surgery on one leg, and 9 months later the hair on that leg is definitely longer, darker, thicker. Feebee06 (talk) 09:52, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the lecture notes which was given as citation - it doesn't say that *nails* don't continue to grow after death. The citation in the Nail (Anatomy) article is more specific and should be used here as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.164.19 (talk) 18:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Last paragraph in "Evolution" section

The last paragraph in the "Evolution" section seems to be poorly worded, if not misinformed. Many theories and general explanations of evolution hold that natural selection has some unknown property in determining what features of an organism should change, rather than all changes occurring by random chance as the article suggests. That natural selection isn't entirely random is central in explaining animals that use camouflage. That section seems to be suggesting that most people's understanding of evolution is really Lamarckism, yet the example given about Lamarckism here does not match examples given on that article. For example, Lamarckism seems to hold that evolution is very direct ("a blacksmith builds up muscles, his son will more easily develop muscles"), and yet the misconceptions article applies Lamarckism to the idea that natural selection is more than a description of random incremental change.

The article says " Evolution does not plan to improve organism's fitness to survive", but I'm prettye general theory of natural selection holds that an organism will strategically develop to survive in its environment. For example, it seems impossible that an insect would ever start looking exactly like a stick or leaf by completely random chance. The source given simply states given says similar to "no, there is no objective involved with natural selection", yet it doesn't say why. Just because its on the Berkley University website doesn't mean we have to include it; surely there are much better sources that explain natural selection than some Q&A. On a side note, please forgive me if this is hard to understand; my sleeping is messed up.--IronMaidenRocks (talk) 02:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The article does not suggest "all changes occurring by random chance". It simply dispels the myth that "evolution" has anthropomorphic characteristics such as being able to "plan" or "try" something. It's that simple. You're reading way too much into what is stated in the article. Until you can provide reliable sourcing (and your opinions or statements here do not suffice) that evolution can "plan" or "try", the sources provided in the article are quite sufficient and reliable. The article is not a dissertation on evolution; it simply dispels one of the misconceptions. Cresix (talk) 02:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The central point of that paragraph is not that there is no sentient planning or trying. The paragraph clearly states that "Evolution doesn't see a need and respond to it[...] A mutation resulting in longer necks would be more likely to benefit an animal in an area with tall trees than an area with short trees, and thus enhance the chance of the animal surviving to pass on its longer-necked genes. Tall trees could not cause the mutation nor would they cause a higher percentage of animals to be born with longer necks." This text says that change does not occur in response to features of an organism's (indirect?) environment. That goes against every concept of evolution that I've heard. Perhaps the fact that such trees are indirect features of the environment makes this excusable, though. Also, you don't need sources to add a 'citation needed' tag: neither do I really need sources to question the value of one source we are using, as long as you are familiar with the subject. If the information were presented in more than one source I would find its inclusion acceptable.

Also, I find it questionable to judge theories on natural selection, a theoretical process, as "wrong". It should be made clear that an idea is not the mainstream scientific outlook, yes; but it seems dubious to go further. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that "Change does not occur in response to features of an organism's (indirect?) environment" is correct when taken to mean change at the individual level, which is exactly what "Tall trees could not cause the mutation nor would they cause a higher percentage of animals to be born with longer necks" means. The same number of animals are born with long necks as if there were no tall trees around, but the fact that there are tall trees around mean that a higher proportion of long-necked animals will survive. Thus when talking about change on a population level it makes sense to talk about changes in response to environment, but it is important to understand that the mutations are not a response to the environment.

I agree that on principle it must be allowed to question a source without having a secondary source.

Dr bab (talk) 10:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't entirely disagree that a secondary source would improve the item; I just don't see a problem with the current sources. Let me suggest, rather than arguing about what is intended in the item, perhaps IronMaidenRocks (or anyone) could suggest a rewording of the item with source(s) to support it. Without a source to back up a challenge to the item, I don't think we can proceed. If you take each sentence in the item individually, on face value there is no mistaken information. The problem arises when we try to infer what is meant beyond the literal statements. That's why I think a rewrite would be helpful. BTW, I don't think the item is judging natural selection as "wrong"; it's just shedding some light on a misconception about evolution. Cresix (talk) 16:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to go too deep into theories on giraffe evolution, but if the paragraph's interpretation of natural selection is correct it does not seem as if the species which became the giraffe would continue having their necks grow longer. Even if they did achieve a mutated, longer neck, and that helped them to survive, why would their necks continue to get longer? According to the paragraph, the figurative force of natural selection would be perfectly content with the animal's current neck length. They're already getting the food from trees which helps them survive, so why go further? It would only be by means of another random mutation which causes the proto-giraffe to receive a longer neck. Of course, it seems fallacious to assume that the giraffe's genes/whatever would be able to detect food in tall trees. Does anyone else see this conflict? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 04:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Examining the source shows that Darwin believed it to be due to over-feeding on trees, where an animal with a longer neck would be more likely to obtain food and thus live to reproduce. But why didn't other members of the pecora infraorder develop such long necks? The way Darwin puts it, developing a longer neck would be a natural trend because it would benefit any 'browsing feeder'. And yet, giraffe is the only species which obtains the mutation. Lamarck seems to be commenting on the origin of the giraffe's long neck, whereas Darwin comments on the neck's further development after it was already a feature of the giraffe. It also seems that the same rules could not apply to the walking stick, for example; the odds of a creature looking exactly like a stick or leaf would be astronomical under such an understanding of natural selection. Well, anyway, it seems between Bab's comments and my checking the source, that my problem with the section is solved. Although, I would still recommend adding a source which accurately describes the modern concept of natural selection in detail, rather than such a "Q&A". --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 04:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a simple matter of cost vs. benefit. Longer necks require more energy and make it harder to run and drink. Therefore, longer necks grant a reproductive advantage over shorter necks only in environments where they make it significantly easier to obtain food. In other environments, the cheaper alternative (i.e. shorter necks) wins. DES (talk) 09:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Case study of superstitions versus misconceptions: Egg balancing

Are superstitions and misconceptions the same thing? A definition may be difficult, but in my mind a misconception is a wrongly held belief that you hold because you have been misinformed by bad sources, whereas a superstition is a belief you hold even though authorative sources and/or common sense tells you differently. In other words, a misconception is held because of a lack of information but a superstition is held in spite of information to the contrary. E.g. people think that most people in Columbus' day believed the Earth was flat because they have seen that description in popular culture, and they have never read "real history books" on the subject. But people who believe you should knock on wood to ward off bad luck probably know that there is no rationale behind this belief, but in my opinion the fact that they still choose to believe as they do does not make it a misconception. Also, when you hold a misconception and you are corrected, you are generally surprised and respond with "Oh really? I can't believe they thaught us that when it was wrong" or something of the sort. Whereas getting the "correct" information about a superstitious belief would not provoke that kind of reaction at all.

Which brings me to the egg-balancing. Being neither Chinese nor a reader of 1945 Life magazine I had never heard of this before seing it in this article and my obvious reaction was "Who the smeg believes that?". I think this should sort as a superstition rather than a misconception and thus does not belong in this article.

The Urban Legends link even refers to this belief as "the quaint superstitious belief". The Knoxnews source uses first "an old wives' tale that just never seems to go away" but then later calls it "misconception" and "myth".

To summarise my concerns:

1-Can we differentiate between misconceptions and superstitions in any way?

2-If yes, can it be done generally, or do we have to try each case by itself?

3-If we can differentiate between superstitions and misconceptions, should we exclude superstitions from this page?

4-Based on 1-3, Does the egg-balancing act belong on this list?

My own answers would be: 1:probably, 2:case-by-case, 3: superstitions should be excluded, 4:no. Dr bab (talk) 11:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

No one have any opinion on this? Would anyone oppose the deletion of this item? Dr bab (talk) 08:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I interpret silence as no contention, and have moved the item here:

• It is not easier to balance an egg on its end on the first day of spring. In fact, the ease or difficulty of balancing an egg is the same throughout the year. This myth is said to originate with the egg of Li Chun, an ancient Chinese folk belief that it is easier to balance an egg on Li Chun, the first day of spring in the Chinese calendar. In Chinese Li means setup/erect, Chun spring/egg. Setup spring is a Chinese solar term, literally interpreted as erecting an egg for fun. It was introduced to the western world in a Life article in 1945, and popularized once again by self-titled "urban shaman" Donna Henes, who has hosted an annual egg-balancing ceremony in New York City since the mid-1970s.

Dr bab (talk) 09:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Removed bottled water not healthier than tap water

I removed the following item:

• Bottled water, vitamin-enriched water, and sparkling water are not healthier than tap water. In fact, many studies have shown that bottled water often contains mixtures of bacteria, fertilizers, and a variety of pollutants.

The sources provided did not establish that it is a common misconception that bottled water is healthier than tap water. Furthermore, whether this is a misconception or not will depend very much on the quality of the tap water in whatever locale one is considering, as well as the bottled water available for purchase in the same area. Dr bab (talk) 11:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I concur, until it's strongly sourced as a common misconception. --Lexein (talk) 11:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it depends on locality. Finding a source for it being a common conception would be easy. Proving that it is a misconception might not be possible, as it depends on the quality of local and imported water supplies. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 08:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Drugs

There should be a drugs section, there are numerous misconceptions about drugs, like LSD being horribly dangerous and so forth —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.13.27 (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

No, not without a specific misconception that is identified by a reliable source as a common misconception. Cresix (talk) 15:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

There's bound to be reliable material that considers this topic; however, I'm sure such a search would lead to several editors linking to sources which describe marijuana as a panacea. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 07:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Mathematical Misconception that Past Events Determine Future Probabilities

It is a popular misconception that future probabilities depend on past events. For example, many people believe that since a coin flipped landed 'heads' 5 times in a row that it is very unlikely to land heads a 6th time. When in reality the probability of it landing heads the 6th time is the same as any other flip- 0.5. This seems obvious when you think about it for just a couple seconds, yet I see people make this mistake enough that I think it should be included on this list. I don't have a source for this, but seeing as this is a well known mathematical truth, it should not be difficult to find a reliable source. 130.225.166.194 (talk) 11:43, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

It's a common phenomenon that people prefer having a hypothesis to accepting randomness. This is not always unreasonable and 6 successive 'heads' gives tentative support for a hypothesis that the tossings are not fair. Even if the 7th toss is 'tail' the person may cling with confirmation bias to their hypothesis. Checking whether a coin is fair demands more stringent tossing and math that most will accomplish, and in practice it is not likely that one will demonstrate the ideal 50:50 probability. The alleged misconception could be generalized to lack of appreciation that mathematics uses abstract models (such as what the poster calls "mathematical truth") that never exactly match reality Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This misconception is known as the gambler's fallacy. It is indeed fairly common. Here are two sources: Data Matters: Conceptual Statistics for a Random World and The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Science.  --Lambiam 01:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Geometry

The point, line, plane, circle, and sphere that are defined as fundamental elements in Euclidean geometry are commonly supposed to exist but in reality are impossible to construct. Source: Synergetics (Fuller). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:38, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

... or at least Plato thought so. This strikes me as more of a philosophical or mathematical issue than a misconception. Fuller isn't exactly a neutral source, either. Hairhorn (talk) 14:50, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Removed "knives are more lethal than guns"

I removed the following item based on a lack of sources establishing it as a common misconception and a suspicion of WP:SYN:

• It is often asserted that knife attacks are more dangerous than an attack with a firearm ("knives are more lethal than guns"). While self-defense instructors often make a point of emphasizing that a knife attack may very easily result in death, there is no statistical evidence that knife attacks are more likely to result in death than an attack with a handgun. A 1968 study claimed that gun attacks are five times more lethal than knife attacks. This figure has since become a controversial point of dispute in gun politics. A review of several studies published in 1983 concluded that lethality of wounds from handguns is between 1.3 and 3 times higher than lethality of wounds from knives.

The source for the first sentence is a quote by the Chairs the Criminal Bar Association (in England?) stating "knives are more lethal than guns". The second source is Bladecombat.com which lists various myths about knives and guns which basically can be summarised as "It is really dangerous to have someone come at you with a knife, and using a gun for protection may not be very helpful". I could not obtain the third source, but based on the phrasing of the item it does not seem to ascertain that it is a common misconception that knife attacks are more dangerous than gun attacks. If it does, I suggest the item is re-written to highlight this before it is being reintroduced, and that the relevant quote is placed in the reference list.Dr bab (talk) 09:18, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Satan

Odd. There's quite a few biblical passages that refer to him being in heaven, not on earth. The Book of Job certainly implies it, but this passage says it in black and white. --Dweller (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

 Done - Removed; no evidence this is a common misconception. Cresix (talk) 01:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the wording "constantly on earth" merits removing the whole paragraph; the misconception was not about him "being constantly on earth", but that he 'lords over hell'. The wording could have been changed to "it often refers to his being in heaven and on earth" or similar. Perhaps examining the given source would help? Most people believe that the Bible refers to Satan as residing in "hell". References to "abyss" and "lake of fire" (KJV and etc. render several different Greek words/phrases as "hell") deal with him being "cast into" them rather than his living there. Perhaps commentary on the common conception of Satan which stems from (?) The Divine Comedy would also be in order? There's bound to be sources for that. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 07:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Robert Fulton

I scanned the source and can't find that it says there's a common misconception about this bloke. --Dweller (talk) 21:48, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

 Done - Removed; no evidence this is a common misconception. Cresix (talk) 01:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Baseball

I know there are a lot of Americans who use Wikipedia, but can the identity of baseball's founder truly be described as a common misconception? I'm sure it's a common misconception in America, possibly Japan, some parts of Canada... but in Europe? The rest of Asia? Australasia? Africa? South America? Is the problem here the usage of terminology by RS aimed at that RS's readership? There are some very obscure facts about cricket that cricket writers refer to as common misconceptions that would require significant deciphering for most Americans. --Dweller (talk) 21:53, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that if you can find a reliable source about a common misconception held in any country, it should be considered. Currently there is an item about a common misconception in South Korea that sleeping in a closed room with an electric fan running can be fatal. No reason any country should be excluded. Cresix (talk) 01:38, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Cresix, but I would like the items on the list to be phrased so that the source and/or the population in question becomes clear (i.e. "According to The New York Times it is a popular myth that baseball was invented by Abner Doubleday.", or "Several US media sources report it as a widely held misconception that.."). Baseball is actually such a special case that I guess everyone would assume it is a US-only myth simply by the fact that it is about baseball. Another concern I have is that when I went to the The Abner Doubleday myth on Origins of baseball it says that "The myth that Abner Doubleday invented baseball in 1839 was once widely promoted and widely believed. [emphasis added]". Does this disqualify this misconception as non-current? I would guess that plenty of sources abound, this being baseball and all, maybe some can be dug up by the US crowd? Or we could seek guidance on the Origins of baseball talk page. Dr bab (talk) 07:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The color of the Sun

A common misconception that people have is that the Sun is yellow. It can sometimes look yellow through the Earth's atmosphere. But if you were to go out into space, you would find that the Sun is actually white. This should be mentioned on the List of common misconceptions page.

Here is a good source that talks about the fact that the sun is white. http://solar-center.stanford.edu/SID/activities/GreenSun.html

appple 2011 March 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Appple (talk • contribs) 07:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

In addition to that source showing that the sun is white, you would need a source that states that it is a common misconception that the sun is yellow. Dr bab (talk) 07:42, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Only if it is likely to be challenged as a common misconception. Are you challenging that it is?AerobicFox (talk) 07:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Really? I would say that the source must always be there, or else what are we doing here except WP:OR? I also thought that was how the inclusion criteria were now to be understood. Dr bab (talk) 08:20, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

That is itself a common misconception. Per WP:Verifiability:

But in practice not everything need actually be attributed. This policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source...

It seems to me that the contention that this is a common misconception is reasonable. I myself thought the sun was yellow, and I know that most do. If you feel that it is not then that is fine also, but I'm not sure if you do or don't believe this is a common misconception.AerobicFox (talk) 16:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Dr. bab that there needs to be source that the misconception is common, per consensus regarding the guidelines for this article. And one editor's opinion that a misconception is common is not sufficient. If necessary, I am challenging whether the misconception is common that the sun is yellow. Cresix (talk) 18:12, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess that for this article at the present time, all new items are "likely to be challenged" and thus one is required to source it. Dr bab (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Kk. AerobicFox (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is a source stating that the sun being yellow is a misconception. http://www.misconceptionjunction.com/index.php/2010/09/10-common-misconceptions-dispelled/

appple 2011 March 2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Appple (talk • contribs) 08:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

You really have found an interesting source there. If that is accepted as a reliable source, it would seem logical to list every misconception from that site in this article. Do we really want to go that way? HiLo48 (talk) 10:27, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not a reliable source. Take a look at the About page: "The site is owned by Vacca Foeda Media (formerly Dazzleblab), which is my company which owns/manages a series of sites aimed at keeping me from actually ever having to get a real job. If you would like to contribute to this dream, the dream of doing nothing, or just contribute funds to my Hot Pocket and Dr. Pepper addictions, feel free to send me a donation with the button below." The owners degrees are in Computer Science.

And to AerobicFox: the requirements for this article explicitly require sources that prove the items are a common misconception, without exceptions. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:12, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Qwyrxian on both points. Cresix (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your honesty Qwyrxian. In this case it means that we don't have a reliable source. Let's drop this topic now. HiLo48 (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

[3] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's any need to challenge this as being a common misconception. The source does not use the word "misconception", but it does say that people from around the world believe the sun is a color other than white. If we only link to articles which use the word "misconception", we will wind up linking only Q&As format sources which deal with misconceptions; that's not my idea of 'reliable', especially considering that those types of sources don't usually show how they came to their conclusions. Perhaps it comes down to whether we want to hold to a specific article's rigid criteria, or to simply hold to Wikipedia's standards. We all know this is a common misconception, and the first source says it without using the words "common misconception".. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 08:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that doesn't work for this article. The problem is, everyone thinks they know what is common, and not everyone agrees. We just went through a train wreck of a deletion discussion because we didn't previously have clear inclusion criteria. The "compromise" decision was that in order to appear on this list, we must, without exception, have a source that explicitly states that it is a common misconception or a very similar phrasing. The source you provided isn't close to that, so its not sufficient for inclusion on this list. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. However, the source explains that it is a common misconception:

"It is hard for many people, even scientists, to admit that the Sun they are so used to living with is actually white... Sometimes the display color of the Sun is culturally determined. If a kindergartener in the USA colors a picture of the Sun, they will usually make it yellow. However, a kindergartener in Japan would normally color it red!"

It seems unlikely that the phrase "it is a common misconception that the sun is any color other than white" would ever be found in the wild. Its no problem to look for other sources, but we might not find one that exactly fits the criteria. --IronMaidenRocks

Do have a think about those poor kindergarteners. I'll bet they had to use white paper, so it would be stupid for them to paint a white sun! The colour they choose will be what they see someone else use. HiLo48 (talk) 09:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

As you said, they are using the colors which others commonly use; but that's extrapolation. The point is that the source clearly illustrates that the misconception is international and does not vary by age or even educational background. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 09:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

You ignored half my post. They may KNOW it's white, but are not silly enough to paint a white sun on white paper. Prove to me there's a misconception. HiLo48 (talk) 09:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I ignored it because it sounds like a joke. You're asking me to extrapolate on the source material, that's pointless. But if you want to draw something white, use colored paper? Color the background? Why don't they draw snowflakes as blue or indigo? Most kindergartners I've talked to think the sun is as big as it looks to them; I doubt they understand that the particles which make up our atmosphere tint the sun differently than it appears in space. Why do you think the "why is the sky blue question?" arises so frequently? Because everyone knows the answer, of course! --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 11:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

We are running into the "words to that effect"/"synonyms thereof" problem here. Is first writing "many people believe that the sun is yellow" and then going on to explain that it is not the same as saying that "there exists a common misconception that the sun is yellow?" I would think so. Dr bab (talk) 12:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The Sacramento City College's Department of Physics, Astronomy & Geology maintain their own list of common misconceptions related to astronomy, and the "yellow sun" is on it.[4] decltype (talk) 10:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if we should not have a debate on what we should take as sources here. I apprecieate the Sacramento City College link is better than the one given above, coming from a source related to astronomy. But on their list they also put up the following items as common misconceptions: "Looking at any eclipse is dangerous"; "Mercury is always hot"; "The most important thing telescopes do is magnify stuff"; "Flying through an asteroid field is fast and dangerous"; and the rather astounding "The Moon can only be seen during the night" which they back up with the argument that "Most people don't look up in the sky unless there's a reason to." I would certainly not classify any of these as common misconceptions.

What are good sources? Can we use snopes.com? Can/should we put demands on whose authority we are willing to accept that something is a common misconception?

Dr bab (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The article's criteria for inclusion seems to remove the possibility of quoting anything other than this type of source. 44 misconceptions is quite a lot for common misconceptions on astronomy, bound to be some weird ones? We also quote a source that contains 'Constantine made/approved the canon of the Bible' as the second 'biggest' misconception about the Bible. I don't think I've heard that one before. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 12:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The third inclusion criterion states that the misconception must be mentioned in the topic article. That is not the case at present.Dr bab (talk) 12:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The so-called "inclusion criteria" was not achieved through consensus and doesn't apply to most of the list. It's more of a goal than anything, and can't be used to exclude items. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

It absolutely can. If this list does not have a clear, well-defined inclusion criteria, then it must be deleted for lack of notability. WP:N states, "Notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." If we cannot say exactly what the inclusion criteria is, then we do not have a notable topic, and then we're back to AfD. Now, if we want to revise those inclusion criteria, we can certainly do so. But there must be a criteria, and it must be completely clear. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the quote you mention is about inclusion criteria. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

If notability is the problem, this is certainly notable. The argument against its inclusion is that it is not a "common misconception"; apparently that people know from birth that the sun is white with a very slight green tint. Time would be better spent deciding whether conceptions on the list are or are not false, rather than going into philosophical understandings of what "common" means.--IronMaidenRocks (talk) 14:37, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, we must have some source stating that it is a misconception, otherwise we would have a "list of facts". And the philisophical debate about "common" was dropped based on the assumption that we could trust our reliable sources to defining it as common. But as I said above, I would really like a debate on what sources we can and can not accept. Dr bab (talk) 15:57, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, A Quest For Knowledge is right that my reference is not clear; I was way to tired last night to have been trying to explain policy/guidelines. Let me try to be more clear now. The real problem with not having a not having a clear inclusion criteria is WP:NOT, specifically "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information". A clear, specific topic is necessary to meet this standard. For many stand-alone lists, we don't really need to be much clearer than the list title itself, because it's obvious what the list includes, like List of counties in Ohio. In other cases, the definition of the title words is less clear, and needs clarification, like List of sovereign states. Note how the latter list has a whole section in the list very carefully defining what can be on the list. One thing that was abundantly clear from the last trainwreck AfD is that there is not a clear, obvious understanding of what a common misconception is. Numerous questions arose before and after. For example, I would personally argue that any belief that is held by more than about 20% of a specific population that is considered wrong by the majority of that population is a "common misconception." Others disagree on threshold numbers. Furthermore, I believe that it would be acceptable for this list to include something like "The Christian God exists," given that, even though I agree, the very large number of non-Christians in the world would disagree and consider this a mistake, hence a common misconception.

Even if we move away from my extreme relativist position, there were still numerous points of disagreement. Can this list refer to misconceptions among only a small group (like, misconceptions held commonly by physicians in the US)? Can this list make comparisons in time (for example the prior belief in Europe that only foul elements existed in nature)? In the end, as editors, we had to make a consensus decision, and that decision was the criteria as currently written. Personally, I still don't think the criteria are clear, because we never settled on the question of what exactly we considered synonyms for "common" and "misconception". But that's the best we have. Allowing additional items in just because we, as editors, think the misconception is common is a form of WP:NOR. Allowing in entries that have vague, unspecific language is bordering on violating WP:NOT and WP:V.

In this specific case, I absolutely challenge the notion that the reference given meets the burden of proof necessary to show that "the sun is yellow" is a common misconception. The fact that children draw it as yellow does not mean they actually perceive it as yellow (counter example--kids usually draw people as pink, often because it's the closest possible in the limited set of crayons). Furthermore, I don't think that source is reliable for the assertion it makes--there is no evidence that the claim is anything more than the opinion of the authors, who don't appear to have any particular expertise in measuring this sort of thing. Qwyrxian(talk)22:12, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

We should start out by making sure the criteria for inclusion does not violate Wikipedia's standards. To openly claim that "the Christian God does not exist" is unscientific and unverifiable. Its little less than the personal opinion of a relatively infinitesimal population (not having an opinion does not statistically count for or against an argument). Who would be referenced? Richard Dawkins? Family Guy? Very few scientists go farther than sharing their personal opinion, because science does not generally dabble in the unverifiable (outside theoretical quantum mechanics). Furthermore, many scientists alive and dead, including (apparently) most astronomers, have held belief in some form of deity.

What I'm getting to is that we must first consider what Wikipedia wants, and then consider what we want. As it stands, the criteria for inclusion on this article limits sources to nothing other than blogs and unreliable Q&As about misconceptions. We must consider what Wikipedia wants and remove the blogs and any other unreliable sources. If there is an article left in the aftermath, we shall continue to build the article on reliable sources according to Wikipedia's guidelines. Guidelines first, criteria second.

My reason for quoting that text was to show that the first source understands the conception of the color of the sun to be a common misconception; not that it logically proves there's a common misconception by citing kindergartners. And you also ignored that the source says "most people, including many scientists..." not just kindergartners (but Caucasian skin is a pink-tan color :D). The source is certainly of the same quality - perhaps greater in quality than most of the other sources which have allowed 'misconceptions' to be allowed into the article. There's no difference between the second source and the source on natural selection which I discussed earlier; that was held as correct because "its from a college". So was the source above. Is there a random element in deciding which sources are acceptable? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Source contacted: page now clearly reads that the color issue is a common misconception. Link. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 23:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's another source. It calls it a "popular misconception".[5] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

That seems to solve the problem. Thanks! Qwyrxian (talk) 02:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The Sun IS yellow

No, it is not a misconception. This is what I get for not monitoring this talk page so conversations like this can be nipped in the bud. I used to teach astronomy. Our Sun is classified as a yellow star by astronomers. See Stellar_classification, or any college astronomy textbook. Quoting some non-authoritative source that disagrees with what scientists in the field actually say doesn't make for a good item to include in this article. Fortunately, I don't see anything in the list about a yellow sun. ~Amatulić (talk) 07:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that revert was quick

HiLo48: Lambiam added a new entry to the article about the Gambler's Fallacy.[6] Twenty-six minutes later, you reverted the entry with an edit summary of "No clear evidence presented that it is a common misconception".[7] Three books were cited:

• Understanding Probability: Chance Rules in Everyday Life
• The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Science
• Data Matters: Conceptual Statistics for a Random World

Did you actually check all three books or was your revert just a knee-jerk reaction to a new entry added to the article? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

We MUST have evidence that the exact words "common misconception" (or something very similar) have been used to describe the false belief. I cannot check the books. Those words WERE NOT used in the added text. In normal circumstances I apply good faith, but for this article we need much stronger evidence than sources we cannot check. HiLo48 (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

No, that's not how verifiability works. There is no requirement that sources be online or easy to check. See WP:SOURCEACCESS. If you dispute an edit, then go to a library or a book store or ask the editor to upload a scan of the pages in question. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:10, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, in Gambler's_fallacy#Psychology behind the fallacy, there are 6 references, and it is described as something "most people erroneously believe". I'd say there is clear evidence that this is a common misconception. – jaksmata 21:14, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The inclusion criteria, if valid, says nothing about using the "exact words 'common misconception'". --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I am happier about the new online reference, but not fully convinced. HiLo48 (talk) 00:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

"We MUST have evidence that the exact words 'common misconception'".... definitely not. We need only evidence that the misconception is widespread. We don't need some catch-phrase to appear in a source. A journal article that describes statistical measurements that most people react to the 4-coin-toss problem the same way, and the fact that we already have an article on the Gambler's Fallacy with sufficient references, should be sufficient. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The 2nd inclusion criterion states - "The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception." The second part of that was written (perhaps not as well as it could have been) to highlight that the words "common misconception" or something very similar MUST appear in at least one source.

If you choose to continue this fight, I will resubmit this article for deletion. It was precisely because I expected that some editors would not be able to conform to the inclusion criteria that I agreed to let it live. Your attitude proves that its existence cannot be justified. HiLo48 (talk) 01:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

As much as I think there is a problem with this article, IronMaidenRocks is correct that we cannot reject the sources simply because they are offline. I would ask, though, that whoever it was that added the statement provide us with some sort of idea just what it was that the books said, so that we can better just whether it meets the 2nd inclusion criteria. I don't need a scan--I'll AGF a quote from someone. I think HiLo48 is being a bit extreme, but the underlying point is that we have to be careful just how far we are willing to stretch in terms of the sources what counts as a "common misconception." If we're going to accept "widely held belief (that is wrong)" then I'm going to have to insist that we also accept any percentage results that are over 25-30%, as those are clearly the same meaning (to me). Qwyrxian (talk) 01:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

HiLo48: You can submit this article for AfD to your heart's content. But you're still going to have answer the same question that you couldn't before: What policy(s) does it violate and how does it violate them? Content disputes are not a valid reason for deletion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

When I first saw this section of the article it only had offline sources, and none of the wording included anything like the words "common misconception". I am now happier with the content, but agree with Qwyrxian that we must be very careful with what goes into the article. I don't want to repeat all that was said in the deletion debate, but there were a lot of awfully valid points highlighting the difficulties surrounding this article's existence. This is not simply a content dispute. HiLo48 (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian, the source from the Gambler's Fallacy article is available on Google Books. Just click the ISBN, then go down to "search for this on Google Books". --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, most of us above agreed the exact words "common misconception" don't need to be used. Also, offline sources can absolutely be used although I'll admit the possibility of abuse for sourcing something with offline sources is higher. That doesn't mean we should immediately delete it though (AGF), but rather should try and verify it (Google books as mentioned above is a good idea). VegaDark (talk) 09:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion Criteria in Text of the Article

Please don't include messages to editors in the article's text. That's why we have tags. It would probably be in the article's best interest if you sought consensus with the main body of Wikipedia that an article can have a set list of inclusion criteria. It sounds like WP:OR to me. Do you have sources that define what a 'common misconception' is? Do those details given perfectly fit your rules for inclusion?

One user said that consensus was not reached about criteria - if that is so, stop trying to force the criteria onto the article and use only Wikipedia's guidelines. Its concerning to me that editors are inadvertently going above the rest of Wikipedia and make they're own rules. As we have seen from the preceding discussions, we have not, apparently, actually defined what items should be included in the list. Its also annoying that we're vetting new information by this criteria, and yet none of the older material has been examined; many of them having Snopes and blogs as sources. Reliable sourcing is much, much more important than adhering to these article specific rules. Please show me a Wikipedia policy suggesting that guidelines for individual articles are even allowed. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:02, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Please see my description above. Also, it is common practice on lists with unclear inclusion criteria to explicitly list that in the article. That is actually not for editors, but for the reader, so that they understand what this article is defining as a "common misconception". Qwyrxian (talk) 22:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Its also common practice to avoid and delete lists like this. It would be better to have an article called "common misconceptions" (similar to the article on fallacy) and discuss misconceptions therein. Then it would have a rational to be further broken down into separate articles like "common misconceptions of/in..."; an article titled "list of common misconceptions of astronomy" would never be allowed to stay. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:55, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I strongly agree with deleting this list. But if it stays, it must have specific, clear inclusion criteria. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

My position is exactly the same as Qwyrxian's. There was a very extensive and quite painful debate on this which only reached a very begrudging agreement from me to allow the article continue to exist ONLY on the condition that we applied very explicit inclusion criteria AND listed those criteria in every section of the article as messages to editors. HiLo48 (talk) 00:50, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

"begrudging agreement from me to allow the article continue to exist ONLY on the condition"

Nobody has to follow guidelines that you set out. The results were no-consensus, not appease Hilo with his demands for explicit inclusion criteria for every section.AerobicFox (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

"me to allow the article continue to exist"

Lol, I didn't realize you were allowing this article to continue to exist, I thought you just failed at getting it deleted.AerobicFox (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad I got your attention with the strength of those points. Of course I don't have personal control over the article, but please recall that the result of the RfD was not a defeat. It was a train wreck, and that was due to the mass of poor quality of arguments presented. You will know which side I believe most of those came from. HiLo48 (talk) 02:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

You don't need arguments. In Wikipedia's perfect form, its just a collection of paraphrased quotes with attached sources. Make the guidlines conform to sources and Wikipedia's standards. No debates or rivalries needed! Work together! ~Spreads Rainbow across the sky!~ Personally, I think the best COA is to move the article to Common Misconceptions or similar. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:00, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

One of the points I made in the RfD discussion (more than once because some didn't seem able to read or understand it) was that to understand a List of common misconceptions, we need a Common misconception article where such a thing was defined. But we have the fundamental problem that while we do have an article with such a name, it redirects straight back to this article. That means that the content of this article is defined by the content of this article. Stupid really. HiLo48 (talk) 06:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

First of all, please let's wait with another Afd until we've had a few more months to see how this turns out. If it were to be nominated now, the result would most likely be exactly the same as last time, with the addition of a lot of (rightfully?) angry comments about being too quick to re-launch the Afd.

Secondly, I disagree that we should not be very strict with new items even though other items on the list may be in bad shape. By being very strict, it means that we avoid a lot of clean up later, and the items that do get added to the list will be so with much better sourcing than they otherwise might. Furthermore, people are working on re-phrasing, re-sourcing and removing bad content.

Thirdly, that we require good sources to name somthing a common misconception is necessary in order to avoid a system based on WP:OR or WP:SYN. If a "common misconception" can only be sourced to blogs etc. then it is probably not notable enough for inclusion. Many of the items on the list have been covered as common misconceptions in major media, these are probably the kinds of misconceptions that should make up this list. Not the 43rd and 44th common misconception about astronomy.

Dr bab (talk) 07:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. We should hold to the standards you just mentioned. I do think that specifically looking for the words "common misconception" is going to steer us away from misconceptions which are actually common. From what I've seen of the article, blog pages and Q&As are the commonly accepted sources. That needs to change: the items we already have need to be reviewed and new items need to be held to those standards. Its better to use reliable sources that imply a misconception is common, rather than unreliable sources which plainly state that a misconception is common. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 08:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I would say that we should use reliable sources that state that it is a common misconception, but I agree that we should not hunt for the exact phrase "common misconception". Maybe we agree, as long as the implication you're talking about is "explicit enough". From an above example, I don't think the information that children colour the sun yellow is sufficient, but the statement "many people find it hard to believe" is. Dr bab (talk) 09:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

About source quality: I favor weeding out blogs which are not affiliated with a newspaper or other WP:RS (that is, not under an editorial policy with fact-checking), and weeding out Q&As which aren't in WP:RS. We have the option of tagging any marginal sources with {{Dubious}} after better sources can't be easily found, or deleting really bad sources. In the AfD discussion and previously in Talk I advocated a thorough source review; in that light, I've reviewed several items, and found better sources for one or two, but haven't yet made the time to add them to the article. I figure patience is good. --Lexein (talk) 08:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Vitaman C Does not Prevent or Cure Colds

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5184850

http://health.msn.com/health-topics/cold-and-flu/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100172929

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/jul/18/medicineandhealth.sciencenews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.20.4.100 (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done - Please provide a reliable source that this is a common misconception, not just sources that vitamin C does not prevent or cure colds. Cresix (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The first link says:

But, contrary to popular belief, a mega-dose of Vitamin C is not an effective cold remedy.

I think that is sufficient. –CWenger (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

CWenger is correct. We need to stop this machine-like insistence that a source must contain the exact phrase "common misconception". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually I agree. It wasn't "machine-like"; just a careless error. I missed "popular belief" when I read over the sources. Cresix (talk) 20:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

While the application of the inclusion criteria need not be totally machine like, it does have to be pretty strict. The earlier failure to have strict inclusion criteria was precisely what led to the last RfD. In this case I can accept that "contrary to popular belief" is good enough, but I am still concerned that we have to have this discussion for almost all additions to the article. Very few other Wikipedia articles cause so much trouble with attempts to add garbage. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I was going to add this, and thus had a close look at the sources to see how I could create a nice paragraph out of them, but then I noticed that there may actually be two different misconceptions here. On the one hand, it is the belief that mega doses of vitamin C functions as a remedy for flu and/or cold, and another is that daily intake of vitamin C prevents flu and/or cold. I went to Vitamin C to see if something could help to clarify, and found the following:

"Routine vitamin C supplementation does not reduce the incidence or severity of the common cold in the general population, though the largest analyses suggest supplementation may slightly reduce common cold duration".

This is suggestive that there may actually be an effect after all. Going to the first of the sources given here (which seems to be the original source for the other sources also), I found:

"This review is restricted to placebo-controlled trials testing 0.2 g per day or more of vitamin C. Regular ingestion of vitamin C had no effect on common cold incidence in the ordinary population. However, it had a modest but consistent effect in reducing the duration and severity of common cold symptoms. In five trials with participants exposed to short periods of extreme physical stress (including marathon runners and skiers) vitamin C halved the common cold risk."

The last sentence I guess may be what I have seen elsewhere written as "limited effect for extreme athletes". But what about "modest but consistent effect"?

Do we have a misconception here, or is it simply a case of insufficient data? I think this comment by the author of the review may be suggestive of the latter:

Despite finding that vitamin C did little to help protect people against common colds, however, Dr Hemilä said more scientific studies were required to investigate whether the vitamin helped to treat colds and pneumonia in children. Vitamin C was not a panacea, but neither was it useless, he said. "Pauling was overly optimistic, but he wasn't completely wrong."

I don't have access to medical journals, so I can't check the second source quoted in the Vitamin C article.Dr bab (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It all depends on the wording. The title of the section says "...prevent or cure colds" I'm not aware of any evidence that Vitamin C can do that. But there are certainly studies that suggest it can reduce the severity of cold symptoms. Higher up in this discussion the word remedy is used. I'm not sure if that means cure or relieve. I would avoid it. HiLo48 (talk) 23:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this. Its giving medical advice about something that seems uncertain. Could cause some people to stop taking vitamin C when they have a cold, when it could actually be helpful in some way. Is this really necessary, How many medicinal products with "it doesn't quite have this one effect" are we going to add? The source for commonality of the 'misconception' says "a mega-dose of vitamin C will not remedy a cold". I agree that that's a common thought in the US; when people get a cold, they think they should take excessive amounts of vitamin C. But it doesn't say "many people believe vitamin C prevents or cures colds" which is pretty extreme, considering how it is a common conception that nothing can cure a cold. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 11:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I found the second source from the Vitamin C article, they sum up in their abstract that: "Doses of vitamin C in excess of 1 g daily taken shortly after onset of a cold did not reduce the duration or severity of cold symptoms in healthy adult volunteers when compared with a vitamin C dose less than the minimum recommended daily intake.". The article is available here.Dr bab (talk) 09:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Back and to the Left

JFK's head moving "back and to the left" when he was shot is often used as "evidence" that there was a second gunman on the ground. In actuality the head would move toward the shooter and not away. There's no shortage of people who believe in the conspiracy surrounding his assassination and I'm not going to address it as a whole, but this particular aspect of it is certainly a common misconception —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.69.172.148 (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Right now it reads as if it's YOUR conspiracy theory. Wikipedia depends on sourced content, so to add that content you need to find an independent reliable reference that, firstly, describes it as a common misconception (or similar), secondly, has an article here, and thirdly, presents the "correct" interpretation. Good luck. HiLo48 (talk) 05:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm

The section headed "1HSCA178" addresses the source of the misconception. The movie JFK and Bill Hicks' stand up routines played no small part either. The sections headed "1HSCA403" and "1HSCA404" discuss the actual physics and experiments conducted. I can recall watching a video in which a ballistics expert shot melons wrapped in packing tape with a rifle, much to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, it's unlikely I'll dig it up on the internet. I'm sure there are plenty other credible sources from people who ran the same experiment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.69.172.148 (talk) 05:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Again, the inclusion criteria for this article are quite explicit. Do have a look at the lead of the article. What you have presented so far does not satisfy the second of those criteria. HiLo48 (talk) 05:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

New entry in section Astronomy: Center of the universe

Many people (I did so too) believe that our universe has a center where all matter constantly moves away from since the big bang. However, there is no center. Source: http://www.universetoday.com/36653/center-of-the-universe/ I remember there used to be a wiki page dedicated to this topic, but it seems gone now. Wonder why... (Eroock (talk) 00:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC))

If you're requesting an addition to the article, you must address all of the following:

• Does the misconception's including topic have an article of its own?
• Provide a reliable source that it is a common misconception.
• Is the misconception mentioned in its topic article with sources?
• Is the misconception current, as opposed to ancient or obsolete?

Cresix (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't prove anything one way or the other, but this was not on the quite exhaustive list "44 misconceptions about astronomy" quoted in another discussion above. I couldn't find anything on Universe or Observable Universe, but I didn't read the articles thoroughly, I only searched for "center" in the article text. Dr bab (talk) 09:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Just so that I'm on the same page... They're saying that we know there was a big bang because the universe is expanding? That's a logical fallacy. The absence of a center makes the concept of a singularity false, unless they have a reasonable explanation. Are they saying the whole existing universe, except to where matter has spread, is the area of the singularity's origination? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:58, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a more than three dimensional thing. One interesting analogy I've read is that of the surface of a balloon as it's being inflated. It's expanding in many (not really all) directions, but has no centre. HiLo48 (talk) 06:32, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the source related what you said about the balloon. I think I understand what it means, but a simple analogy can only say so much about such a theory. There was no real attempt to explain the analogy given in the source (I am weary of this: sometimes analogies are purposely vague so that audiences infer meanings convenient for the speaker). As I see it, the balloon did have a place of origination, a starting point from before it expanded outwards. Scientists who support the Big Bang theory claim there was a 'singularity' were all existing matter was contained, if I remember correctly, was so dense that it achieved critical mass and "exploded" from that central location. If this is the correct understanding of the theory, how can the theory still be held as viable without a detectable point of origination? The source is not saying there is no 'center because of dimensions' its saying there 'is no center because no place of origin can be detected'. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 07:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I see now, its basically saying "the whole is the center" or that what was once the singularity is now everywhere. While I'm not sure that is a logical conclusion (such a 'singularity' left no trace, and yet it is said the big bang left high levels of radiation throughout the universe; how is that possible?), I at least see clearly what they mean. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 08:07, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Gestation gender

There is a common misconception, even amongst midwives and other medical personell, that foetuses begin life as female - this is in fact false, unless the definition of female is 'lacking a penis'. Before becoming structurally male/female, foetuses are genotypically so from the moment of conception. This should be included, but I cannot seem to add it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.173.96 (talk • contribs)

You need to find a source that this is a common misconception. I've never heard anyone clueless enough to say this about genotype, but I do hear it mentioned in relation to phenotype and morphology, where it's not entirely incorrect. Hairhorn (talk) 21:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Spelling Error

A small thing, but I think this sentence means to use "smoothing" instead of "smooth":

"They can, however, prevent damage from occurring in the first place, smooth down the cuticle in a glue-like fashion so that it appears repaired and generally make hair appear in better condition."

I don't see an edit button, so I assume this page is locked down or something, but I wanted to help. Spelling errors often make things appear less valid than they are.

Not a spelling error. It's grammatical with parallel sentence structure (using the verbs prevent, smooth, and make). Cresix (talk) 15:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

 Done: It is a grammatical error, however, and I have changed it per the request. If you want to keep "smooth" the sentence structure would have to be altered somehow. –CWenger (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not a grammatical error. It has perfectly parallel sentence structure. "Smooth" is a verb. So the parallel structure uses the verbs prevent, smooth, and make. This is fundamental English grammar. The only grammatical change would have to be preventing, smoothing, and making, which wouldn't make sense. Cresix (talk) 15:50, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I see your point now. But in that case I recommend a comma after "repaired" so it is clear to readers that these are three separate potential benefits. –CWenger (talk) 15:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem. A comma is optional before "and" in seriation. Cresix (talk) 16:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I find it helpful in this case because the benefits are so long and the comma helps the reader realize a new one is coming. –CWenger (talk) 16:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

monty hall

monty hall problem is the subject of a common misconception. Should it be added here? Tkuvho (talk) 17:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

This one has potential, although we need a source that it is a common misconception. It is similar to gambler's fallacy, which is already in the article. If it is added, it might be appended to that item. Cresix (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I know this isn't really a legitimate argument, but y'all may want to look at Talk:Monty Hall problem before adding it here--that page has '22 archives' of people debating the exact details of the various solutions, their merits, etc. I think that importing the problems there to this page might be more trouble than its worth. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, we could refer people who object (most likely because they don't intuitively consider it valid) to those archives to review all the discussion. I suspect all the arguing merely confirms how widespread the misconception is. I'll admit, when I first heard this one I didn't believe it. But after learning more about probability, I finally came to accept it. Cresix (talk) 00:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Two points... Firstly, as Cresix has said, it would need a reliable source to say it is a common misconception. Secondly, must it be named after an American game show host? Even the Monty Hall problem article says that it had been described much earlier. I recall studying such a problem in high school well before it got the Monty Hall name. (Which I had never heard of until today.) Of course, that wasn't in the USA. We MUST avoid this US-centrism. HiLo48 (talk) 00:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, I just noticed that there's an open Arbcom case related to the article. I think that spreading it here is a bad idea. If it does come, though, "Monty Hall problem" is, as far as I can tell, the standard name used, if in mathematical treatises on the subject, and certainly the most commonly used term for the problem. The treatment of the problem does postdate the show (per our article, first described in 1975). Qwyrxian (talk) 01:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

This is a common misconception, just not a very popularly known one. Most people will assume that removing all but two doors leaves their odds at 50/50, while not realising that their odds of picking incorrectly are much higher. However, probability doesn't matter in individual instances. The way I see it, if it is probable then at some point it will happen. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 06:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Are not the Monty Hall and the Gambler's Fallacy more "incarnations of human beings' inherently poor grasp of probability theory" than misconceptions? Several examples exist that shows how people will make the wrong choice when making judgements based on intuition or gut feeling rather than on careful calculations.Dr bab (talk) 07:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Most misconceptions result from a poor grasp of something, whether it's factual information or the weaknesses of intuitive decision-making. How is this one different? Cresix (talk) 01:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I see a misconception as a "wrongly held belief", often based on poor information. These probability-items are not something that in my opinion define as "held beliefs", more as "problems that are incorrectly solved". An illustration: misconceptions can often show up in conversation; someone tells you that Baseball was invented by Abner Doubleday or that the great wall of China is visible from the moon. But no one will start a conversation about the Monty Hall problem without allready knowing the solution, and using it as a kind of interesting riddle. I know that there are no demands for misconceptions to frequently show up in conversation, but I still do think this illustrates a difference between these classes of "misconceptions".

It may be that as very noteable (and named) problems, the Monty Hall and/or Gambler's Fallacy can justifiably be included here, but I think we should limit ourselves to a couple of items of this sort at maximum, since there are many more out there like them. Dr bab (talk) 08:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Again, I don't think we should get into defining what misconception means - we should rely upon reliable sources. If a reliable source supports something as a common misconception or easily identifiable synonym, that's enough. We don't need to limit ourselves to a couple of items, but rather only to the notable ones. Please see WP:NOTPAPER which states: Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, but a digital encyclopedia project. Other than verifiability and the other points presented on this page, there is no practical limit to the number of topics Wikipedia can cover, or the total amount of content. Lgstarn (talk) 05:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I still feel the two are different, but unless there is a sudden influx of items of this sort I am happy to let the matter rest. Dr bab (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I still see no conceptual difference between this type of misconception and most other misconceptions. It may be true that "no one will start a conversation about the Monty Hall problem without already knowing the solution", but that doesn't mean that people don't have opinions about how someone should make such decisions based on their erroneous understanding of probabability; for example, I have no doubt that many people who watched Monty Hall's Let's Make a Deal had opinions about which door a contestant should select. The misconception is still held, just not articulated as the "Monty Hall problem". Cresix (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Mussels

While studying biology, we were told by our Professor that the reason you don't eat unopened mussels is purely to avoid eating mussels which had been contaminated by certain types of bacteria. Ideally, you should have live mussels, immerse them in water, and after 20 to 60 minutes, they should all open a little and slam shut again when you touch them. This establishes that they aren't dead and unlikely to be diseased. Then when they are cooked, they generally all pop open providing they are healthy. Telling someone that they're safe to eat when they evidently were not testing using diseased mussels seems a little risky. Not everyone can differentiate between a normal odor and an abnormal one if they don't know what they're smelling for. The advice really is meant as a "safety first" strategy. Will try to find scientific articles to back this. --Waterspyder (talk) 16:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I removed the item because of several problems. In addition to the one you mention, the source does not identify this as a common misconception. The section on preparation as food in the article Mussel is completely unsourced. Cresix (talk) 16:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

What misconception? Every instance over my lifetime where I or someone I know ate an unopened cooked mussel, the result was a case of food poisoning. ~Amatulić (talk) 07:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Editorializing

Can we remove the word "Although" from the phrase that begins "Although fraudulent research by Andrew Wakefield..."? DrSaturn (talk) 14:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Why? Grammatically and contextually, it makes sense. Cresix (talk) 18:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Life Expectancy.

It's common to hear that in some historical era life expectancy was quite short, say 35-40 years. People always misinterpret this to mean that people aged faster back then and were dead by 40. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.128.32.170 (talk) 06:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you aware that to add something to the article we need an independent reliable source that describes such a belief as a common misconception, or similar? (Plus a fair biT more.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

And frankly, I've never heard anyone interpret it this way. Cresix (talk) 16:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit notices no longer necessary in article body

User:Mindmatrix has created a template displays the "criteria for inclusion" edit notice on any attempt to edit, so this notice is no longer necessary in every section in the body of the article, freeing up 23K of space. These edit notices have been removed (twice now) because it is now displayed automatically. This is a more elegant solution than including it over and over again in the article. Especially, if the notice requires copy-editing, it can be done in one place instead of many places. See Template:Editnotices/Page/List of common misconceptions. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Excellent solution. Thanks for the explanation. HiLo48 (talk) 01:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)