Talk:Doom Patrol

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Removed text regarding a "notable distinction"

I removed the following text as it is not correct.

"However, it enjoyed the distinction of being only the second DC title to start publication as a mainstream DCU series but then shift to the Vertigo imprint (the first being Saga of the Swamp Thing). "

When the Vertigo imprint was launched, Animal Man, Shade, the Changing Man, Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Sandman and Doom Patrol were the comic books that shifted from publication by DC to publication by the new imprint, and that shift happened simutaneously. Whether this snippet above refers to publication order within that month of shifting is unclear, but even if it does I do not think that position is notable. Hiding 15:55, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the writer was referring to how old the title was at the time of the shift - IIRC, it had been running longer than anything else except Swamp Thing. It's just badly phrased, is all. Lokicarbis 02:03, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, got it. However, it's not a notable distinction, is it? Hiding talk 10:19, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The key term here is not "Vertigo," but "mainstream DCU series." None of the four titles that supposedly contradict the statement were launched as "mainstream DCU series"; even if the Vertigo name/imprint did not exist when those comics put out their respective first issues, the style and audience-marketing ('New" physical format, direct distribution, "mature audiences" warning) did, and they all had it. There was a perfectly valid point there, but it was very poorly phrased. (Just for the record, in case somebody comes along and reads this as I just did; don't want to mislead them.) Ted Watson (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Teen Titans animated series

User:Angie Y. added the following assertion: "In this version, Elasti-Girl and Mento are Beast Boy's real mother and father." I cannot find a source to verify this. Can anyone help? —Theo (Talk) 19:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's not supported. I watched all those episodes and that was never stated. I am going to edit that now. Chris Griswold 15:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Teen Titans (animated) section says that TT defeated the Doom Patrol. Shouldn't that read Brotherhood? Having not seen the ep, I don't think I'm qualified to make the change. -- Ipstenu 16:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching that. Chris Griswold 17:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Danny the Street??

A "sentient, transvestite boulevard (which was typically illustrated through the presence of pink curtains on, for example, hardware stores)." ????? What the HELL? You're telling me one of the members of the Doom Patrol was... a street? A street of buildings? THAT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT OMG WTF DOES THAT MEANS!!?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.118.230.154 (talk • contribs) 11:22, September 24, 2005 (UTC).: Please sign your posts!

That's not vandelism. One of the members of Doom Patrol was indeed a cross-dressing piece of real estate! A what a character he was! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.46.22.195 (talk • contribs) 20:47, September 24, 2005 (UTC).: Please sign your posts!

Brotherhood of Dada

The Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files & Origins Handbook bring the Brotherhood of Dada at least back in-continuity. The Secret Society of Supervillains are said to be in talks with said group. The implications of this are either that the Brotherhood of Dada existed without the DP (which I find extrememly hard to believe, with Mr. Morden/Mr. Nobody relying heavily on the group and other various plot points) or that Morrison's run on DP, at the very least, existed. The only complicating fact is the appearance of Byrne's DP at the end of OMAC, during the desert battle. Why they did that, I don't know, but it serves to just complicate things. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DoctorWorm7 (talk • contribs) 03:12, December 9, 2005 (UTC).: Please sign your posts!

Back in continuty

OK I've had a quick stab at trying to update the status of the doom patrol in regards to their history (as of the moment, it turns out that byrne's retcon is out of the windows and those are all the original - see Teen Titans 32 for more details). However the explaination given in the issue is not that easy to provide a summary for (because it's pretty vague). Someone else want to take a run at it and overwrite my stuff?

--Charlesknight 11:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WTF????? I haven't read Teen Titans #32 yet, but jeez! Elasti-Girl seemed like one character meant to stay dead. Robotman even found her oversized skeleton to stress the point. I know it's a comic book and, as they say, only Uncle Ben, Bucky, and Jason Todd stay dead in the comics . . . Well, Uncle Ben and, um . . . Okay, just Uncle Ben. But jeez! Wryspy 08:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to break it to you... Chris Griswold 15:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC) (Just kidding.)[reply]

Kupperberg's Doom Patrol

The section on Morrison's Doom Patrol includes a very brief mention of Kupperberg's more superheroic Doom Patrol for the first 18 issues. Some characters were introduced during this run that were significant in the Morrison run (such as Rhea Jones, whose original superheroic name I can't recall). Also, a couple of other new Doom Patrol members were introduced and discarded by the end of Kupperberg's run. One of them died during the Invasion! crossover. The Doom Patrol was also based in Kansas City for awhile. I haven't read Kupperberg's run since they were published many years ago, so I don't remember much more, but the Kupperberg section could definitely be expanded upon. Also, I think the individual revivals could use their own (sub-)sections. The Legion of Super-Heroes article organizes everything very well and could serve as a design model for a revision of this article. Kaijan 15:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Altered text regarding Superpunching continuity changes

I wanted to clarify that Superboy Prime's punching didn't overwrite history; it merely remixed it. Instead of a world where Jason Todd never died, Superboy created a world where Jason Todd died but was replaced by one who had lived. The fact that he died never changed.

However, things do get murky on the Doom Patrol. Nobody seems to remember them, although the effects they had on other people never changed or reversed. And during the Superboy-Prime fight, they regained memories of the adventures they had after the original line-up. So it may not be that those adventures never existed, once the original DP was back, only that no one remembered clearly until the Prime fight. (Beast Boy was having some nagging feelings in Teen Titans). Chris Griswold 15:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My reading of that bit of Infinite Crisis was that everything happened — the original '60s stories, the Kupperberg, Morrison, Pollack and Arcudi runs, and the Byrne run. Just as Superboy-Prime brought Jason Todd back to life, he also restored Rita Farr, Larry Trainor, Cliff Steele and the Chief to (roughly) their Silver Age statuses and made everybody forget about their previous lives. Ironically, this creates a double-memory/multiple-life status for the Doom Patrol which is sort of similar to what Byrne did to Donna Troy.

I think we're saying the same thing here; I may just not have phrased it well in my first attempt. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

X-Men

I will be adding a section about the similarity to the X-Men. This is a widely held notion; the two teams, made up of a bunch of freaks led by a wheelchair-bound genius, were created only months apart, and their popularities both waned around the same time in the late 60s. Chris Griswold 15:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The quote from Arnold Drake at the end of this section is misleading. While he may have thought that the similarities were a coincidence, it is clear that he no longer does and is convinced that Stan Lee ultimately stole his concept as indicated by the following (quoted from the same Newsarama interview):

Over the years I’ve became more and more convinced that he knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. I didn’t believe so in the beginning because the lead time was so short.

He goes on to say:

Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between the two offices [Marvel and DC]. Therefore from when I first brought the idea into the [DC editor] Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that this guy Drake is working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months.

The information as presented in the article appears to be misleading and should be changed.24.163.208.79 16:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)RB[reply]

If you think the information is misleading, you should change it. That's the whole point of a wiki. Rray 16:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just thought I was following protocol. Consider it changed. 24.163.208.79 16:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote this section to more accurately represent the similarities of the two comics and Drake's feelings toward them. RB 24.163.208.79 20:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect to the concept of not speaking ill of the dead, I think Drake was being disingenuous, as I have always seen the DP as a rip-off of Marvel's Fantastic Four. Robotman=The Thing, Negative Man=The Human Torch (admittedly, this parallel is not so exact, but it's pretty close), Rita is Sue with powers similar to Reed's (she even marries the very Reed-like—down to the hair!—Steve Dayton), their HQ is is a well-known big building in the middle of a city, and there are no secret/double identities (until Beast Boy comes along, but with his animal forms always being green-faced, that was absurd). Sure, the Chief/Professor X similarity is there, but there has never been any doubt in my mind that primary development of the DP was as a copy of the FF. Ted Watson (talk) 20:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oops! I see that the article covers this too. Not as detailed, though I have added Cliff's and Ben's similar bitterness over their bodies. But the lack of secret identities and the very public HQ, both being parts of the DP from the outset (unlike the Reed-esque Dayton), probably should be put in, too. Ted Watson (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

For the ones who may want to include them in the article:

KetinPorta 19:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please note, the actual images have been commented out per WP:FU, as copyrighted images may only be used as fair use within articles. To see the list of images, edit this page. Hiding Talk 20:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, I've formatted the list better, so as not to contravene policy. Hiding Talk 19:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Morrison-era villains

Much as I love Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol, I'm not sure that this article needs to list every villain the team encountered on his watch. Should this be removed, perhaps to a daughter article? Should there perhaps be a List of Doom Patrol villains, organized by era? I think that would be more in the spirit of WP:FICT than, say, an article on Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Disproportionately long in this entry but would work in a willains article. --Chris Griswold 08:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right. I don't know that much about the Silver Age DP, but I'll try to whip something together this week. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This obviously never happened. If anyone else wants to take the lead on this, please feel free. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Morrison Doom Patrol" or "Vertigo Doom Patrol"

An anonymous AOL editor recently changed the heading of the Grant Morrison-era DP to "Vertigo Doom Patrol". This isn't really accurate, though — although the Grant Morrison DP was certainly one of the titles that was responsible for early Vertigo (along with Sandman and Shade, the Changing Man), all of his Doom Patrol work was originally published under the DC label. The Vertigo label didn't come along until Rachel Pollack's first issue, IIRC. Although I quite like some of the things Rachel Pollack did with the title, it's Morrison's work that's best known, so I think we should change back to "Morrison Doom Patrol". (After all, we've also got "John Byrne's Doom Patrol", so it's consistent with the rest of the article too. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I meant to revert that myself. --Chris Griswold 07:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit/impending potential snippage

I just gave the article a once-over, fixing grammar and whatnot and generally (hopefully) making it flow a little better, but I gotta say that it seems like there's a lot of extraenous stuff there, and the whole thing with, what, four or five different team rosters and lists of villains and whatnot just strikes me as confusing. Honestly, I think the article would benefit from a lot of cutting and reorganizing, but I don't quite want to do that without bringing it up here first. What do you guys think? -- Captain Disdain 04:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since the notice above was up for about a week and no one objected, I got to work. I started out by cutting away the rogues' gallery list and the allies list, although I did add a summary about the Morrison villains (and Flex Mentallo is now mentioned under Danny the Street's entry). I also moved the trade paperback section way down, because right now it was just in a kind of confusing place.

I'm still thinking on how to deal with the team rosters, because they're just very long and unwieldy and unfortunately make reading the article a kind of a chore at best. (I think this is a prime example of a fairly common phenomenon on Wikipedia -- someone comes up with a certain way of organizing things, and when others continue along the same vein, it eventually snowballs into something that is no longer convenient.) As you can see, I ended up taking the entire team rosters away and putting them into one bigass "Members of Doom Patrol" section below everything else, but I don't think it's a terribly elegant solution, either (you can really see just how much stuff they take up in the article now, though!). Still, I do think it's a definite improvement, since it makes following the actual chronology a lot easier -- that kind of flow is very important to readability. Perhaps a separate article, along the lines of List of Avengers members, would be the best solution here? (I was going to make this into a table, as in the Avengers article, but frankly, the way Wikipedia does tables is such a pain in the ass that I couldn't find the energy to do it right now...)

If you guys disagree with me here, feel free to voice your concerns! -- Captain Disdain 03:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ages ago, I was going to try to create separate articles for the members and villains, but never got around to it. I still think it would be a good idea, and would streamline this entry considerably. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More pictures

Does anyone know where to find pictures of:

Coagula, Scissormen, Rhea Jones, Number None, the Toy, the Candlemaker, Nudge, Grunt, Vortex, The Bandage People, Charlie the Doll, Dorothy's imaginary friends, the Men from N.O.W.H.E.R.E., and the Decreator? New here and having difficulty with the upload link. From -- Cardsharp21 at 22:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Main Picture

Please add at details "who is who" referencing each member at the picture. 89.0.139.33 21:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question of facts

Coming to this article late, but I’ve got a big question… Is there a factual reference to the statements that the intent of all of the subsequent teams was to catch the spirit of the original? If not the paragraph sounds, in part, like opinion. Should this be flagged, rewritten, or dropped? — J Greb 01:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit

Should this flag now be removed? — J Greb 15:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

John Arcudi's Doom Patrol Roster

I quote from the article as it is as of this post: "Rounding out the four new members and Cliff were Elongated Man, Doctor Light, and Beast Boy, another former Doom Patroler."

Excuse me, no. Those were the replacements that Jost tried to use when they got the copyright. While I haven't seen Kid Slick, Fever, Flash Forward/Negative Man and (the Indian woman's name escapes me at the moment) used since the title was cancelled, that was the Doom Patrol.

It becomes a quibbling point. Jost was the one behind the new version of the DP. His first strategy was was to use Slick, Fever, FF, and Freak as the team. When they, and the faux-Cliff walked he hired replacements, as he saw as his right.

The article needs the point clarified though, as written it makes it sound like all 9 were in from the start. The role the "replacements" played needs a few more lines. — J Greb 23:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And the "four new members" should be named, at the very least. --Noclevername (talk) 04:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew Cable

The page for Matthew Cable claims that he was a member of the Doom Patrol. If so, when (what issueS)? --Scottandrewhutchins 14:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cable appeared in the three-issue story arc in Showcase #s 94-96 that launched Paul Kupperberg's "New Doom Patrol" in 1977. Seems to be his entire connection to the DP. Never a member, apparently. Ted Watson (talk) 19:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Doompatrol1.JPG

Image:Doompatrol1.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 01:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Showcase94.JPG

Image:Showcase94.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 11:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Complaint about the article

Hi, I came to this article to learn the origin of the Doom Patrol ... and that's the one part you didn't write! The description of the first series is interesting, historically, but doesn't actually explain who the characters are. Later on, in the article, you refer back to characters, like Niles Caulder, but there has never been any initial description of them. ThatGuamGuy 23:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)sean[reply]

I suppose the problem is that the origin changes - not sure quite how many times they have been retconned, enough times to make attempting this a tad confusing. There are more details of the characters on List of Doom Patrol members and the character pages hold more details on their respective histories. (Emperor 00:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Bob Haney as co-creator--maybe not!

The article flatly credits Bob Haney as co-creator of the Doom Patrol—in fact, it gives him top billing—which he may very well not truly deserve. Here is the evidence, mostly courtesy of a "Hero History" of the feature, "The Life and Death of the Doom Patrol" in Amazing Heroes #6, November 1981, Zam Inc., (not Fantagraphics!), Stamford, CT, by George Guay, pp.36-54.

[V]eteran editor Murray Boltinoff asked writer Arnold Drake to develop a feature suited to the book [that is, My Greatest Adventure]. Drake remembers one Friday outlining the idea for the characters and the series to Boltinoff, who then asked for the finished script the following Tuesday. Drake decided he could use some help in meeting the deadline, so he turned to another DC freelance scripter, Bob Haney, for help in fleshing out the concept and writing the first story. As Drake recalls it, Haney contributed one of the male characters, "probably Negative Man, although it could have been Robotman, I don't remember. Bob didn't have an assignment and I was overworked, so I went to him and said 'let's plot it together, then you write one half of the story and I'll write the other.' I believe he ended up writing the second half." (p. 39, last paragraph of column one)

Let me stop for a couple of points. Nowhere in the entire article is there an acknowledgement of DC's earlier Robotman character, who was as close to this one as the Flash and Green Lantern of that 1940s era were to Julius Schwartz's then-current characters of the same names and powers. If Drake's memory was a little off and Cliff rather than Larry was Haney's work, that obviously restricts Bob's level of creative imput. There is a similar aspect to Drake's claim of who scripted what in MGA #80. While the story is divided into three chapters, this was not done evenly. The opener, the origin of the team, takes up exactly half of the 24-page story-&-art allotment. The remainder depicted their first battle against recurring villain General Immortus. If Drake's version/memory is accurate this time, Haney's input in the creation of the feature itself is limited. Back to Guay's article, picking up exactly where we left it.

Haney remembered an 'almost 50-50' involvement in the beginning of the series. But he never did get too enthusiastic about it and left after 'two or three or four issues. After I dropped out, he did a fine job,' Haney said of Drake's work. Drake, however, remembers Haney being involved in only the first issue. 'I think Bob may have been unhappy that I didn't use him again,' said Drake. 'Maybe I didn't make it clear that I wasn't offering him a partnership on the series. I just offered to split a paycheck.' (p. 39, first paragraph of column two)

A further fact working against Haney's credit is that on a few occasions, someone would write to the DP book's letter column, asking just who created the feature. The response was invariably Boltinoff, Drake, and regular interior artist Bruno Premiani. No mention of Haney, ever (Murray was probably responsible for those text pages). One thing working in his favor, however, was the Flash/Doom Patrol team-up he wrote for The Brave and the Bold #65, April-May 1966. From the beginning of that feature/format, Haney had a bad habit of ignoring existing continuity for these B&B team-up stories and, worse, making up his own (I can give examples if they are needed, but won't bother right now), but not here. While the Flash could have been any character with the power to move at near light-speed, Bob's fidelity to the Patrol's feature is, for him, mind-boggling; in fact, it reads like the speedster was guesting in their title. Most telling, Haney has Rita mention something here that upon its one and only use in the regular series seemed to have been created as a throw-away excuse for a plot development. In DP #95, May 1965, "The Menace of the Turnabout Heroes," the Chief announced that he had found a possible cure for both her and Larry's conditions as Elasti-Girl and Negative Man. I don't remember the exact details, but it involved playing their respective energies off against each other, and Caulder explained that it was very risky, that it could prove fatal. This led Cliff to ask why Rita, who had simply gained super-powers from her accident, would take that risk. The answer: she was dying from the same thing that had given her those powers (the attempt resulted in the two temporarily having each other's powers, although the presence of the radio-energy being in her body—which sported her silhouette, "figure" and skirt, on emergence!—didn't render her radioactive, and Larry never checked his own level beneath his bandages). Haney's B&B story had Rita mention this terminal condition, and as far as I know, it's never been brought up in any DP story since! But even by Haney's own account here, his name doesn't deserve to come ahead of Drake's in the creator credit. So just how do we work this into the infobox and text? Ted Watson (talk) 21:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly four months have passed with no comment here from anybody, so I've added Drake's alternate version of Haney's contribution to the text and moved Haney to the bottom of the infobox's list of creators with a "disputed" note, and cited Guay's article at both places (my edit summary includes a link to this thread, as well). Don't know just when, but I'll get my copies of the 60s run out of storage and cite each letter-column instance of listing the Patrol's creators with no mention of Haney, and I mean in the article. --Ted Watson (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

X-Patrol

a mention of the merging with one of the x-teams during the Amalgam saga perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.98.111 (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Enemies--bad idea?

I am making adjustments to the "Enemies" list in the article, feeling that the absence of Mr. 103 aka Mr. 104 aka John Dubrovny was significant, and having noticed that the "League of Challenger-Haters" (a group of Challengers of the Unknown villains) contained the typo "Challenge-Haters" (no "r"). When the Wikilink for that remained red, I checked the article on the Challengers themselves, only to find that this group isn't mentioned there at all. And their only DP appearance was in a cross-over with the Challengers—one issue in each series. If they haven't been deemed worthy of mention in that article, they certainly don't merit it here. The already present Kor doesn't have an article, and appeared in only one story. Mr. 103/104 doesn't have one either, and appeared in two stories (#98 & #s 105-106), was referenced in the finale (#121), and subsequently appeared in Teen Titans Spotlight #9, April 1987 and Doom Patrol and Suicide Squad Special #1, March 1988. I've added him, left Kor and corrected the "Challengers" typo, but I strongly feel the section is a bad idea, and am leaving it only pending further discussion. Anybody? --Ted Watson (talk) 20:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC) P.S.: I forgot to say that since several members of the (listed) team the Brotherhood of Evil initially appeared as solo villains and in a few cases (at least General Immortus and Garguax, off the top of my head) did again, that works against simply listing that group.[reply]

C-Class rated for Comics Project

As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/Assessment#Requesting_an_assessment and list the article. Hiding T 13:56, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beast Boy Ret-Con, Please?

Garth is probably one of the most misunderstood superheroes characters in the DC universe. To wit: He is the only juvenile (later teenager) that had his own (adult)superhero team. Who else but Johnny Storm can claim this? As with many things, DC comics has often overlooked one of their formulas for success regarding the lives of their characters, either personal or otherwise. Spiderman's appeal is his wide-ranging "Spider (family) Gallery" of associates, allies and rogues. Likewise, Batman has an extensive roster of proteges and enemies that necessitated multiple titles out-pacing Superman's. So what in Garth's history can we cull to make him more intersting and dynamic? Well, start from the beginning. Garth is born with a rare congenital disease from his father, who remedies it with a potion that saves the infants life but turns him into a trans-morphic creature. Now, let's stop right here. Hadn't Levitt and Janet Kahn ever consider that Garth had more in common sympathy with J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter? I would think that J'onn and Garth would have hit it off immediately, and possibily would have formed their own "dynamic duo" of green-skinned crime-fighters. See how easy that was? Secondly, what would have been more intriguing is to put a little intrigue and mystery into Garth's origin, rather than making him the clownish character he's been for nearly FIFTY YEEARS??? How do we do this? Quite simple: What if it were revealved that Garth's father was in fact a renegade D-U-R-L-A-N??? Or at least a half-breed whose misegenation with an Earth woman (Garth's mother) produced an unstable mutation affect in which Garth had to take an injection to stabilize him. In other words, HE WAS LIED TO BY HIS FATHER! Or, coming back to the ambiguity thing, it could also raise the question that Garth may otherwise have a link with the floronic sphere of sentinent plant life (like the Swamp Thing, the Floronic Man, or the ret-conned BLACK ORCHID). How's that for a character action roster? With this new definition, Garth could be naturally compelled into a number of situaions regarding his origins from information hidden from him by the late Dr. , and his adopted father, who could reappear as an arch-enemey, to exploring possibilities with J'onn J'onzz, (maybe even taking trips to Mars, questioning if Garth might otherwise be part Martian, if not Durlan; or are the two species related? One could forsee-in this new iteration of "Beast Boy"-a visit from both R.J. Brande, and Chameleon Boy. Fights with "white martians", etc. This would finally give a great measure of dignity and driven purpose to the character, to say nothing of inspiring writers. (Oh, and lest I forget, one of the reasons I put down T.T. tiles in the 70s and 80s was the goofy and clumsy way Garth, Mal, and Cyborg were treated.)Garth has an amazing power to immulate virtually any carbon-based life form by touching and replicating the DNA of other life. Now, can he do the same in replicating the powers of meta-humans, or would he "overload" or "burn-out"? Can he replicate (even temporarily, the powers of a Kryptonian or Daxamite. What would be the implications and perils)? Or is it that he can only mimic lower life forms? What would happen, for example, if he tried to "sample" a creature of silicon-based life? Or floronic? You see, this is the right way to get old characters out of the doldrums. I made suggestions on how to improve Daredevil's power definition in ways no one has thought of. The trick to to see both the hidden eloquence of these so-called "seconday characters", and how their lives can improve, or at least become more compelling in aiding the narrative. Fianlly, rather than hving "heroes" butt heads in endless battles, dynamic inter-charcter development (as mentioned above) can drive a story as much as a ho-hum slug-fest! (Does Garth have flash-backs and regrets bordering on survival guilt of his dead former colleagues of the Doom Patrol? Well, if not then he should! And by the way, does Beast Boy's relationship with Cyborg remind him of Robot Man? Have they ever re-united since the later survived the explosion? Inter-character links. "Family"-like formationand relationships, as defined with comic book characters! (CRISES, WE DON'T NEED NO MORE STINKIN' CRISIS!!!) Veryverser