Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher

Bloody Footprints in the hall, Filomena's room, and Amanda's room

The following quote from Judge Massei’s report (motivation document) page 256-257, indicates there were no bloody foot prints compatible with Amanda or Raffaele and there were no bloody footprints at all except for one print on the bath mat....

NOTE: To understand this paragraph one must consider that the so-called bloody footprints were found with Luminol in the hallway, Amanda's bedroom and Filomena's bedroom. Also if a sample in question did not contain a genetic profile then it's not possible blood was present the area sampled. Blood contains a genetic profile, so it is not possible the area sampled was blood. Does anyone dispute that?

From Massei report page 256-257: “With respect to the Luminol-positive traces found in Romanelli's room, in Knox's room and in the corridor, she stated that by analysing the SAL cards "we learn, in contradiction to what was presented in the technical report deposited by the Scientific Police, and also to what was said in Court, that not only was the Luminol test performed on these traces, but also the generic diagnosis for the presence of blood, using tetramethylbenzidine, and this test, gave a negative result on all the items of evidence from which it was possible to obtain a genetic profile" (page 64 hearing Sept. 26, 2009).”Turningpointe (talk) 20:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The facts are a) We don't know for sure whose footprints were in the hall--the police did not take reference samples and all we really know is that Amanda cannot be excluded as a donor; b) luminol is only a preliminary test for blood, and when the confirmatory test was done it was negative; c) there was no DNA in the prints. To summarize: no blood or DNA in the prints and we don't know for certain whose prints they were. Note too that 14 luminol hits were found in Raffaele's apartment. Those weren't blood either.PietroLegno (talk) 21:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

This is getting far too deeply into original analysis of a primary source. Turningpointe, what you are selectively quoting is Massei himself quoting something put forward by the defence. You're missing out that the court expert said that the traces were blood and the defence witness said that the results were "not easy to interpret", partly because the test used is only 50% reliable. It is agreed by both sides that the traces contained DNA. The defence witness appears to be questioning whether the traces are blood, but agreeing that they must be something that would contain DNA, such as spit or excrement. Since it is known that someone was stabbed in the flat, Massei, not surprisingly, concludes that the traces probably are blood. --FormerIP (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Rather than analyzing the data here, it might be preferable to expand or start new articles on the many blood tests in use ([1] seems like a beginning) so that readers who are interested can do their own OR. For example, some sources list the DMB test as only 1/5 as sensitive as the luminol ([2]) - however, bear in mind that the development of colorimetric signals is an art form and there are many protocols meant to get a little more oomph out of the procedure (which would make nice meat for an article about the test). I think someone would have to have the product number of the kit they used to even have a prayer of figuring out such details for himself. (And the experts cited by the media? 50-50 chance they'll get it right...) Wnt (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we might be getting wrong-footed in several places here. First, I want to make sure that no one suggests that it is reliable to interpret luminol findings on the basis of color. There was an old wives tale to that effect but it has never been accepted in modern practice. Here is a useful source:

"If the result of the presumptive testing is negative, the analysis is terminated. However, if the result is positive, then a more definitive confirmatory test is performed. The reason for this that there are a number of substances that can produce false-positive observations including bleach, plant peroxidases, chemical oxidants such as potassium permanganate, copper, brass, lead, zinc, bronze, iron, or cobalt."

"DNA: Forensic and Legal Applications" Lawrence Kobilinsky, Thomas Liotti, and Jamel Oeser-Sweat John Wiley and Sons, 2005, p. 36

The point is that luminol is always to be considered only a preliminary test and a luminol "hit" is NEVER to be accepted as an indication of the presence of blood absent a positive finding from a confirmatory test.

As for the DNA/luminol issue, it is important to distinguish, analyze, and not lump everything in together. The footprints in the hallway (which have not been shown to belong to Amanda) did not test positive for blood and contained no DNA--hence the defense suggestion that the idea that these were Amanda's "bloody footprints" is wildly illogical and unsupported by evidence. Just a few of the luminol stains found elsewhere yielded DNA profiles but these were strictly non-probative. PietroLegno (talk) 10:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Do we have a source that the jury in this particular case was wrong to believe that the traces were made in blood, or is this just OR? --FormerIP (talk) 20:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The negative results of the blood tests need to be included in the article. Then the reader can make up his or her own mind about whether the jury was right or wrong to believe that. Does that sound reasonable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CodyJoeBibby (talk • contribs) 08:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

A secondary source needs to be found for the information first, at the very least. --FormerIP (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Candace Dempsey covers this. I will get the citation. In the mean time, I have taken the liberty of summarizing the points made in the Knox appeal. This is surely enough to demonstrate that the point is vigorously disputed:

~---There is no evidence that any of these tracks were made in blood and there is nothing to link them to the murder.

---Evidence shows that there were no footprints or shoe prints found inside the murder room that could be attributed to Amanda.

---Only 3 of 9 luminol tracks had the positive profile of Meredith. Meredith’s DNA profile was NOT found in any of the claimed bare footprints (nor was anyone's).

--Initially, Stefanoni claimed that no additional testing was done. The information she was compelled to release in July 2009 revealed otherwise. The luminol findings were all tested using using TMB and the tests were negative for all tracks.

---Massei’s speculation that the negative test results occurred because the sample was just too small is silly and wrong as a matter of science. Any error in this type of testing usually provides a false positive, not a false negative. This same type of testing was able to confirm blood in tests of the bathroom samples of far smaller in quantity than the bare foot print findings.

--Massei appears to accept the claim the luminol stain was blood based upon a subjective assessment of the color of the reaction. This is completely unscientific and flies in the face of established protocols everywhere. The bottom line is there was no proof that the footprints were made with Meredith’s blood. PietroLegno (talk) 11:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The luminol evidence was central to Knox/Sollecito’s conviction. I think letting the reader know why and how this conclusion was reached is important to understanding Knox’s conviction.

Knox’s DNA recovered from the lumiol traces could only come from pressure or sweat, because she had no cuts on her feet. But whereever she walked with bare feet she would leave DNA via that same process, and she walked around her own home barefoot plenty. Recovering Knox’s DNA from any given patch of floor would simply be incidental. That would also have to be true of Meredith’s DNA found on the floor. Well, perhaps that is OR.

Still, I think one of the problems with explaining the luminol traces is being overly brief. It’s easy to create the false impression that the traces are easily identified as foot prints, and that the placement of the traces leads to a logical connection with the crime. Reading the Massei report shows that neither of these statements are true. We should be willing to devote enough text to explain the luminol traces in some depth - exactly what was found with luminol, how the court came to decide the traces were connected to the crime, the strengths and weaknesses of the luminol traces as evidence. Moodstream (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

The only thing the luminol footprints prove is that there was no cleanup of the crime scene. That's it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CodyJoeBibby (talk • contribs) 07:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP, I"m confused. I can't find the information you mentioned in your post about: 1) the test only being 50% reliable, 2) the test results "not easy to interpret" 3) something that would contain DNA, such as spit or excrement 4) Massei concluding that the traces probably are blood. If you don't mind would you please copy and paste the paragraphs here from where you found this information, along with the page number where I can find the information. The following is your comment from April 2.

"This is getting far too deeply into original analysis of a primary source. Turningpointe, what you are selectively quoting is Massei himself quoting something put forward by the defence. You're missing out that the court expert said that the traces were blood and the defence witness said that the results were "not easy to interpret", partly because the test used is only 50% reliable. It is agreed by both sides that the traces contained DNA. The defence witness appears to be questioning whether the traces are blood, but agreeing that they must be something that would contain DNA, such as spit or excrement. Since it is known that someone was stabbed in the flat, Massei, not surprisingly, concludes that the traces probably are blood. --FormerIP (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)--Truth Mom (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if some sense of proportion is being lost here. Should an encyclopedia article really be delving into such specifics? Is the article going to re-try the evidence and come up with its own judgment on what it all meant and how it should be interpreted? I think that if the article were to be truly neutral it would necessarily be frustrating to advocates on all sides. The goal here should be to produce something encyclopedic that frustrates everyone at least a little. I'm pretty new/ infrequent on Wikipedia but it seems clear to me that NPOV means the article can say that "this is what they were convicted for, this is what the court said, this is what they're saying in their appeals" but not "the traces found with luminol clearly were not made in blood." The latter is OR. And impossible for anyone who's not a forensic expert to know, by the way. And even forensic experts disagree. It's tempting to play amateur CSI here but that's not what an encyclopedia article is for. What is knowable--and appropriate for an encyclopedia to report--is that a conviction was made, an appeal is being made, the court said X, the defense said Y, etc. Grebe39 (talk) 03:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Grebe39, I see that you are new to wikipedia, welcome. If you don't mind would you please delete your comment or revise it because nobody suggested an edit to the article that reads "the traces found with Luminol clearly were not made in blood." Also I suggest that you start a new topic to discuss what wikipedia should be, which BTW is an excellent topic to discuss. I prefer to keep this topic focused on the bloody footprints in the hall, Filomena's bedroom, and Amanda's bedroom. My comment will be deleted after this issue is resolved. We have to do things a special way here and the Admins do that stuff. Thank you kindly.--Truth Mom (talk) 14:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm just overlooking it, but is there a specific suggestion under consideration in this thread for an edit or change to the article? I see a discussion of the so called 'bloody footprints' but I dont see what specific changes are being proposed. I do think the subject is important as the presence of 'bloody footprints belonging to Amanda' has long been one of those inaccurate red-herrings that appear damning but have no real basis. The bare footprints in the hall that fluoresced with luminol were later determined (Stefanoni's notes) to have been tested with TMB and did not react. i.e not blood, The presence of DNA, if it existed, meant nothing more than that bare feet made the prints. So what change is being proposed. We need something concrete to work toward consensus on.Tjholme (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP would you please answer my question.--Truth Mom (talk) 02:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Tjholme, we have a statement in the article that says “Luminol revealed footprints in the flat, which the prosecution argued were compatible with the feet of Knox and Sollecito.” This would lead one to believe that the footprints were of blood. As we can see from Massei’s report this is not true. I think we should include the entire paragraph from Massei’s report (posted above) verbatim to clear up this misleading statement.--Truth Mom (talk) 02:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP you said " defence witness said that the results were "not easy to interpret", partly because the test used is only 50% reliable."

Is this what you was referring to? I found this on page 258 of Massei's report: "She added that, in her own experience, analyses performed with TMB on traces revealed by Luminol give about even results: 50% negative, 50% positive,”

Also I found this on page 256 of Massei's report: "...During the hearing, Dr. Sarah Gino also explained that from reading the SAL schedules, information emerged which indicated the personnel who performed the analyses, the file number, the bio code, and the identification numbers of the items being analysed. She added, however, that "there is missing information or rather, information which is not easy to interpret".

Is this the information you found in Massei’s report that you mentioned in your comment? If not where did you find the information? --Truth Mom (talk) 23:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Would someone please help me make this edit because I don't know how? --Truth Mom (talk) 14:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is currently locked, so I think only an Admin could make an edit. What precisely do you want to add? I would write it clearly here (meaning, the actual proposed text, with citations) and then ask others to add it.LedRush (talk) 14:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Improving house concept diagram

File:Kercher Knox house Perugia concept.gif

Improved variation for concept diagram of upstairs flat.

Several editors have commented that the prior concept diagram, of the upstairs flat, needs improvement. As a result, I have created a variation (see image at right), by copying and altering the February 2010 diagram, while replacing the green bathroom fixtures (with architectural style drawings) and moving the clothes dryer to match the photos. To help gain consensus with other editors, it is important to show that changes are being made.

Originally, the diagram had been kept extremely basic (to nearly stick-figure level) to avoid claims of copyvio, where people might insist on a world-wide image hunt to find who "really" created a more intricate diagram. However, now that the original crude diagram has been accepted as new, I think it is safe to create this variation which can have more sophisticated detail, and refer to the old diagram as the early version which is wikilinked to numerous talk-page discussions. Meanwhile, this new variation can be improved to include a greater range of graphic styles.

We already discussed that the diagram cannot have true, reduced-to-scale dimensions, due to the requirement to source each wall-segment length (and furniture measurements) to reliable sources. Also, the wording below the diagram is needed (per policy WP:OI) to avoid any perceptions of misleading the readers about the actual size of the rooms. However, we can make other changes. What other major improvements which should be discussed? -Wikid77 05:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. It is a wonderful aid to the article. I am wondering if we can find reliably sourced wall and furniture measurements.PietroLegno (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks, but this isn't really any better. That's an interesting interpretation of WP:OI. I noticed it also has "Any manipulated image where the encyclopedic value is materially affected should be posted to Wikipedia:Files for deletion." I think the encyclopedic value of this diagram is materially affected by the manipulations. Rather than improving it, we should probably delete it. We certainly can't use it. Sorry. --John (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Your "thinking" it doesn't make it so and a subjective interpretation of very general language is never impressive. In my opinion the diagram materially improves the encyclopedia. I am sure this is not the only wikipedia article where a highly useful diagram like this has been included. Be not daunted Wikid77. PietroLegno (talk) 16:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you describe the added value you believe it would lend to the article? Maybe you can help me understand why you want to include something like that. I don't like the quality of the diagram, I dislike that it uses the wrong words (we don't talk about a "map" of a house but of a "plan"), I dislike the disclaimers (which are confusing and seem to contradict each other), and I dislike the idea of posting a very obviously user-generated picture like this on so controversial an article. See if you can convince me why we need a house plan at all on this article. --John (talk) 01:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I support the addition of a floorplan. It's of obvious value in visualizing the crimescene and the relationship between locations within the flat. I cannot believe that anyone could argue, with a straight face, that an illustration has no value. That being said, perhaps the floorplan could be reduced to a simple, clean line drawing.. very minimalist... and user:John's concerns regarding clear labeling and wording could be accommodated. Admin:John, with respect, rather than continued and changing criticism of the diagram, why dont we approach this backward and see if we can reach consensus. What WOULD be acceptable to you in the form of a floorplan? Please let us all know your 'must haves'. No disrespect intended but I have to say, arbitrary complaining about something as simple and common as a floorplan illustration comes off more like obstructionism and foot dragging rather than proper WP: cooperation. Regards, Tjholme (talk) 02:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we are making progress. What I had particular problems with was the suggestion that the floorplan involved some egregious violation of Wikipedia rules. This seems silly to me. This is mainly a dispute about aesthetics and what makes a readable article. All of the floor plans that have been published were based on the diagrams in the case file. I respectfully suggest that you have been told a number of times why the inclusion of the floorplan is useful: it helps a reader better understand the narrative. It is neutral on the question of guilt or innocence but it has the signal virtue of adding to the intelligibility of the article. I personally find the introduction of visual elements to break up text to be a useful strategy in any publication. My guess is that if I went through the Britannica or the Americana I would find lots of visual elements. As user Tjholme points out, your other objections can be ironed out. PietroLegno (talk) 10:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support adding the drawing as it does aid the reader in understanding enough about the crime scene. It may or may not need to be tweaked but the idea of having one is good and the opposition has not brought forth a compelling argument founded in policy to exclude it. Indeed, the efforts should be applauded. Our American Civil War battles have user-generated maps and those battles are more controversial than this trial will ever be. Commons has a category called Crime scenes and it has a user-generated floorplan in it for a murder...File:Sogen Kato Room.jpg.
  ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose the current proposal. With no offense meant to the author, it is not of sufficient quality to meet our needs, assuming there is a consensus that we should have a plan, something I am still uneasy about but will go with the flow on. If we are to have one, let us have one that is as true to the real dimensions in the sources as possible, and without all the disclaimers which mar this one. I am sure someone can make a better one; maybe I will even do so. But this one, with the stated inaccuracies, will not do. --John (talk) 03:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I've already given my reasons more than once. The diagram adds value to the article. Issymo (talk) 04:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I have just read this entire thread about the floorplan. As a Wikipedia novice I think it is an appalling disgrace. It is clear that there are editors who will use every possible filibuster activity to prevent any change to the page at all. How adding a diagram showing the flat layout and the relationship of one room to another, can be anything other than helpful to a neutral reader, is quite beyond me. Editors who are opposing this are displaying bad faith on a breathtaking scale and this must be obvious to everyone who reads the thread. It is no surprise that some previous editors have been blocked in the past when they have overreacted after having been driven to distraction by these tactics. If Wikipedia is to have any credibility as an information resource, editing in good faith must be restored and those who are responsible for Wikipedia must act. I had naively thought that the intervention of Jimbo Wales in person would cause some of these editors to pause and change their behaviour, but while some have withdrawn, many of the current crop have responded with renewed energy and are as disruptive as ever. It is as though they get a perverse delight in winning an argument at all costs and have absolutely no interest in working towards a consensus to provide an informative, comprehensive and comprehendable article for the neutral reader. This must raise questions about the motives of these people. NigelPScott (talk) 10:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for not having a floor plan. Though I would like to see some tweaks to the currently proposed images:

• • The text above and below the images should be black and in smaller/cleaner font
  • The text labels should probably be a little smaller (and not bolded) as well
  • At the proposed size the image displays a little blurry, mostly because it is a Gif. PNG format of the agreed size (better yet a SVG, but that might be a bit of a stretch) would be nice to have.

If those tweaks were made (I am quite happy to make them myself if there is agreement and Wikid77 is not able to make them) then I see not problem with inclusion. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I think the floorplan does contribute to the article. I don't have problems with the current form but if it can be improved to satisfy the concerns of others I am fine with it.PietroLegno (talk) 13:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I think it is an asset to the viewer and should go in. I also agree the current form is fine, if the minor changes need to be made that is also fine. lets get it in there and move on. --Truth Mom (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support Because there are no OR or copyright violation issues, and because it clearly adds to the article in a NPOV manner. If people want the plan improved, those changes can be made on the fly. Let's not make perfect the enemy of the very good to the detriment of the readers.LedRush (talk) 13:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Poor diagram per ErrantX's proposed changes. Make them, rotate the diagram so the main entrance is at the bottom, and that's fine. Hipocrite (talk) 14:33, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and draw it to scale, as opposed to narrowed for no good reason. Hipocrite (talk) 14:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support Let's get the diagram back into the article immediately since it is necessary for understanding the case. We can worry about trivial concerns about fonts etc later. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment For those of us who are invested in maintaining the quality of this resource, concerns about the quality of the graphic are not trivial. If we use a diagram, it must be well-drawn, sourced, and free of distracting text. The current proposal does not meet these criteria. --John (talk) 14:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I find it very odd that the text of this article needs so much attention, and there is this continual feuding over text upon a diagram placed for a simple visual concept. I actually have visual issues, and I can see it clearly. --Truth Mom (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Neutral - perhaps still leaning towards oppose. Although I agree that the image is not the biggest problem facing this article, the absence of scale means that I feel unable to offer true support. The attribution could also be much improved. Since the image serves to educate the reader about the interior of the apartment (i.e. it is not simple illustration of article text), the sourcing should be robust - currently, the firmest attribution is to the Friends of Amanda website. Nevertheless, I would not object to re-insertion pending assured changes (in particular, I would urge that ErrantX's recommendations are implemented). SuperMarioMan 15:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - Serves little purpose other than to advance a particular point of view. Quality and accuracy are, at best, suspect. Tarc (talk) 16:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

  Please explain HOW the diagram advances a particular POV or remove your assertion. Issymo (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - A floor diagram is useful when you are playing Cluedo, but this article should be moving away from that approach. --FormerIP (talk) 17:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I agree that the diagram should be included. It is helpful to the reader to understand the events being outlined in the article. Turningpointe (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Copied Turningpointe's vote to this section of the discussion as it was in the wrong place. Hope that's OK. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. How do we know where the frig (fridge) was located, or if the flat even had one? Not mentioned in the article, or the reference supporting the description of flat and contents. Neither is the couch. OR? Moriori (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

There is an official police diagram that shows where everything is located - http://friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/fingerprint_map_small.jpg Issymo (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You're right. There are no sources given that indicate where the frig the fridge was, or whether the bidet was to the right or left of the toilet basin. It just seems to be what one person 'conceives' the layout of the flat to be, (but compressed horizontally, for no good reason) pablo 17:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Totally unsourced, for one. For another it is a 'conceptual diagram' which has been 'conceived' by someone with a very strong point of view on this article, which seems to further indicate that its accuracy is at best limited. pablo 10:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Another editor commenting on the diagram's POV, please explain how the diagram pushes a POV.Issymo (talk)

• Neutral I dont like the idea of putting under scrutiny the house where the murder took place. It seems to me an attempt to do original research. BTW it seems to me a NPOV element, thus I dont side with any part. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 15:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Call to close

• Comment 8 in favour of reinstating the diagram immediately, 2 against. Carried. Reinstate the diagram please. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. It hasn't been 24 hours from the start of this consensus yet. We allow time for other involved editors to see and comment on this. An uninvolved admin will tally and close when the time is right.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how you can claim a consensus to reinsert the material when addressing the concerns of those of us opposed to the current diagram are so easily assuaged. Why not let ErrantX clean up the picture so it meets our standards of quality? Hipocrite (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]First of all, WP works by consensus, not voting (though there is an obvious relationship between the two). Numbers of votes don't matter (supposedly), only the quality of the arguments. Also, the majority of the voting has been done in the last 12 hours. Let's see if we can't pump out one more version of the floor plan that addresses the concerns. It shouldn't take long. Having said that, it seems to me that if the only concerns are cosmetic, I don't see the problem with adding the diagram and changing it per legitimate aesthetic concerns. The article is worse without it than with it, regardless of font size and color. LedRush (talk) 15:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(re Hipocrite) If you read my support statement above, you will see that I'm supporting having a map in the article with no objections for tweaking/cleaning/making a new map. The map shown in the article may change but I'm supporting the idea of getting one in. I believe we can use the current one until it is superseded (just like revisions of our articles). It is a start. It doesn't need to be perfect and we can work on it. This is a means of moving forward.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me suggest that we can't use the current one until it is superseded, because the current one is not to scale, and it does not rise to the standards of professionalism we insist on having in our articles. A means of moving forward would be to correct the diagram. Hipocrite (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No, in Wikipedia, we have humble beginnings for articles from barely sourced stubs to problematic starts and so on. The idea that it must be perfect and fully professional is incorrect. None of our featured articles started out having nearly the level that they would eventually achieve. This consensus is striving at getting the map in so that we get beyond that hurdle and then the map can be improved. If someone gets a new one complete before this consensus closes - great..
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a long distance between "fully professional" and "minimally competent." I am suggesting the second, not the first. To scale, and not looking like an MSPaint drawing. Hipocrite (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Define 'consensus' in terms which indicate 80% of people being in favour of something is not a consensus, thank you. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus means that the entire body agrees. In fact, in functioning consensus discussions, consensus means that everyone either agrees with the decision or stands aside (see Consensus decision-making) - "Any group member may "block" a proposal.") We can get full agreement if you'd let the image get fixed before you rush it into the article. That is a proposal that I said I was willing to accept in an attempt to consent to a compromise, as opposed to merely acceding to the wishes of your off-wiki organized pressure group the new, single-purpose, editors. Hipocrite (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Edited Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I would also point out to Cody that Wikipedia has no deadlines - as Berean Hunter has urged, please allow more time. SuperMarioMan 15:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You're suggesting i am part of what you define as an 'off-wiki organized pressure group'? Given that that statement is a blatant lie, I can only interpret it as a personal attack. Could someone please let me know where to complain about this user, thanks in advance. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You can complain about me to WP:WQA or WP:ANI. Are you sure you're not participating in off-wiki discussions regarding this article? Hipocrite (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Struck accusation Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, I'll be putting a complaint in for that lying personal attack as soon as i work out how to effectively do that. There's a lot to learn here! Thanks again! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

@Hipocrite. Sir, if you’re alleging that one or more of us is a sock/meatpuppet or engaged in off-site coordination then say so plainly, name names and present your evidence. Slurring your fellow editors with that broad suggestion might well be seen as an attack of sorts. Please make your case by strength of your argument not by attacking others. Common wisdom states that “once you’ve said ‘Nazi’, you’ve lost the argument”. In WP I’d restate that as “Once you’ve said ‘sock’ or ‘SPA’ you’ve lost the argument”. 155.70.23.45 (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)155.70.23.45 (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me (above) Tjholme (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I am in agreement that the diagram as it stands, is "productive", as well if those minor things can be addressed in a short amount of time, that is also validated by me. I am not in agreement to drag this thing on and on, nor to be thought of being in any sort of group, simply because i would like to see fair productivity upon this subject. Would you really like me to point at I have from the start the circus of events that has taken place in this? My point as well, many have made mention of professional, well then lets show it by all. I hardly think Dear Meredith is concerned with an article concerning her horrific death, to be argument over font on a diagram. let us not forget WHO this whole thing is concern of.--Truth Mom (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have been told that 'consensus' requires every user in the group to be in agreement for a decision to be made. Could somebody tell me whether SuperMarioMan had 'consensus' for removing the diagram in the first place, thanks in advance. I'm know I'm slow at learning all these rules! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The correct document is WP:CONSENSUS...and no, it doesn't have to have everyone in agreement. I would suggest that you simply wait. Questioning about SuperMarioMan's removal is not helping here. We need to get the editing environment moving towards collegiality. Specific discussion on improving the already existing drawing would be productive; complaints & questioning motives are counterproductive.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• support I agree that the diagram should be included. It is helpful to the reader to understand the events being outlined in the article. Turningpointe (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(@Turningpointe) Your support does not belong in this subsection. It belongs in the thread above this one. This subthread is discussing a call to close.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

mostly off topic discussion which descended into sniping and argument. Discuss the image, be polite. Please --Errant (chat!) 17:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I was just wondering if someone could explain to me how the concept of 'consensus' works here given that it would appear it's a somewhat flexible concept depending on the user. I'm sorry if you don't like people questioning double standards. I just want an explanation of why the concept of 'consensus' as it has been explained to me does not apply to the action of SuperMarioMan's which caused this topic to exist in the first place. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Reading our policy on it might be a good place to start. --John (talk) 16:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Could you refer me directly to the section which states that a consensus requires the approval of all parties, not just a majority, thanks in advance. Could you also refer me to the section stating that an editor is entitled to make radical edits to a controversial article in spite of the objections of other editors, thanks in advance. There sure is a lot to learn here! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Cody, there is nothing more to be explained - instead, please calmly read through the responses of Berean Hunter and others. I removed the image from the article four days ago - why am I receiving all this condemnation days later? It was not the first revert on the subject of the image, nor the last. These attempts to catch me out are a fruitless and unproductive endeavour - could you please heed Berean Hunter's advice and drop it? Thank you. SuperMarioMan 16:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I have so far received no satisfactory explanation as to why the rules on consensus which have been explained to me do not apply to you. But thank you very much for your input. It's a nice technique of yours the way you try to hide behind perceived authority figures such as Berean Hunter by dragging them into your evasive statements. Well done! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for that. You still haven't got round to looking at WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, I trust? Also, what is so objectionable about citing what Berean Hunter (and not to mention quite a few others) have said when it makes perfect sense? You would do well to listen to their recommendations and really take them to heart. I'm sorry, but this persistent sarcasm and aggression does little to advance your argument and much to harm it. SuperMarioMan 17:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Thank you for your patronising tone and veiled threats directed towards me. I would normally see your sycophancy towards perceived authority figures as a nauseating display of self-abasement in order to align yourself with the 'authorities', but in this case I'll make an exception and assume good faith. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC) You haven't assume good faith from your very first post on using this account [3] and nothing has changed to date.TMCk (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I'm sorry if you're offended by my exercising the right to free speech. I can imagine that must be difficult to deal with for someone like yourself, TCMK. But keep on Wiki lawyering. Maybe you'll be able to get me banned! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I sure don't have a problem with free speech at the right place.TMCk (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I would argue that the First Amendment does in fact apply on Wikipedia. I saw nothing convincing on the page you cited to say that it doesn't. How could the First Amendment not apply? The Constitution overrides any other arrangements. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 22:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Uh, oh, not this perennial discussion! The right to free speech applies to government censorship. The right to participation or expression on a privately owned website is not covered :) --Errant (chat!) 22:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Errant is correct. These are private servers and you agreed to abide by the terms of usage. Please read WP:FREE. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I'm still not seeing anything which states that the US Constitution and its Amendments do not apply within the United States of America. I must be missing it. Not to worry! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC) The US constitution's position on free speech applies only to government actors. For example, I have the right to swear however much I want. But if I go to a movie theater and do it, they are completely within their rights as private citizens to kick me out. The same concept is true here. This doesn't even address the idea of WP being governed by US law.LedRush (talk) 23:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Consensus is a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised. All editors are expected to make a good-faith effort to reach a consensus aligned with Wikipedia's principles. Sometimes voluntary agreement of all interested editors proves impossible to achieve, and a majority decision must be taken. More than a simple numerical majority is generally required for major changes. Maybe the hardest thing to understand is that it is not a vote. Arguments count, not numbers. You'll pick it up if you stick around long enough. --John (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC) All interested parties have by now voiced their opinion. Some more than once. We’re simply repeating ourselves. It’s obvious we’re at loggerheads and will not reached a true consensus. The majority is clearly in favor of re-adding the diagram. The most reasonable/neutral POV among us, user:Berean_Hunter, even sits in favor of adding the diagram and tweaking the layout as necessary for aesthetic reasons. Only one user truly opposes. We need a neutral admin to make this call, otherwise this amounts to simple filibustering by an aggressive, non WP:NPOV minority. 155.70.23.45 (talk) 16:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC) I think this debate highlights a serious question that remains unanswered. Why was the floor plan removed and then discussed? It was already in the article when the questions arose. Why isn't the same action taken for all information that is disputed? If the general approach is to remove anything that comes into question, and then discuss its validity, then this entire article should be taken offline until a consensus can be reached on the content. Berean_Hunter and DreamGuy are clearly neutral here. I would like to hear an explanation from one of them. I am surprised that this debate has gone on this long. It is obvious that filibuster tactics are used here making it impossible to resolve anything. The problem with this situation is that action was clearly taken before any type of consensus was reached. I know that Wikipedia has no deadline but 2 people are currently on trial to determine whether or not they will spend a quarter century behind bars. It is unacceptable for Wikipedia to continue to misinform the public about this case, especially as the trial is ongoing. If the article cannot be corrected, then I suggested for Wikipedia to mimic the action of both SuperMarioMan and John (the action of removing disputed information as it is being discussed) and take this article offline until it can be corrected. If this action is not going to take place, then the floor plan should remain in the article, as it was, until a consensus can be reached. BruceFisher (talk) 02:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Exactly. SuperMarioMan had no consensus to remove the diagram but did it anyway. Then he and his friends filibuster and demand a complete consensus to reinstate it. If it is reinstated, one of these people will no doubt remove it again, ad infinitum. If anyone tries to add anything to the article the same people prevaricate and refer people to various noticeboards. Then they refuse to accept any decision coming from any such noticeboard. They also post in the noticeboard request themselves recommending that it not be approved. This article has been hijacked by a group which is determined to withold information from the reader for propagandistic purposes. These people are experts at gaming the Wikipedia system and have a lot of time available to do it. Jimbo Wales's intervention has not deterred them. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Cody, I seem to recall giving some quite clear reasoning for my past actions only yesterday - Wikipedia has a fair few policies and guidelines, to be sure, but I am disappointed to see that you have yet to familiarise yourself with the pages that have been linked for you. I also seem to recall that you have been warned on multiple occasions not to indulge in attacks and accusations of this nature. Note to Bruce: Berean Hunter for one has not objected to the revert that I made - sorry about that. I have already pointed out that the onus of ensuring that article content complies with policies and guidelines rests with the user who adds or restores the material, not the one who removes it. Being over-dramatic about the fate of the article (e.g. the proposal that it be taken off-line - sorry, that isn't how things work around here) adds little to the discussion and does not help it to progress smoothly - I would strongly urge that you re-read WP:DEADLINE. I'm not too interested in claims of "filibustering", if I'm being completely honest - that certain users continue to refer to a single revert that I made no less than five days ago, blowing it out of all reasonable proportion, seems to me to be filibustering of an altogether different sort. SuperMarioMan 12:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC) I'm not interested in whether technically the burden of proof lies on the person restoring material. That is not the point which was raised. What I am interested in is whether you had consensus to remove the material. Did you have consensus from the other editors here to remove the diagram or did you not? Your actions would seem to indicate that anything can be removed from the article without consensus. Is that the case or not? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 12:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC) I'm not interested in whether technically the burden of proof lies on the person restoring material. That is not the point which was raised. It is, however, the point that I am raising, and until you understand this most vital of points I see little benefit to be gained from prolonging this conversation. Why must you debate all of this in accordance with your own rules and preconceptions rather than the tried-and-tested policies and guidelines that Wikipedia has developed and that multiple users have presented to you? I will not further indulge this childish and irrelevant game of "Who Did What?", which constitutes a classic example of refusing to get the point. Is there a particular reason why it is only in the last couple of days, and not immediately after I made the revert, that you have started throwing around and repeating this allegation of impropriety? SuperMarioMan 13:27, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Your point does not answer my question as to whether you had consensus from your fellow editors to remove the diagram. It is an evasion of the question. Let me ask you the question again - Did you have consensus from the other editors here to remove the diagram or did you not? There is no need to get angry. I apologise if I have been out of line recently. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC) The cycle is bold, revert, discuss, which means that the person who reverts a bold addition does not have to have consensus for that action. Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Thank you very much for the information, Salvio. Unfortunately that didn't answer my question. I did not ask whether a consensus was technically required for SuperMarioMan to remove the diagram. I asked if there was in fact a consensus of editors in favour of SuperMarioMan removing the diagram. So far that question has not been answered. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Rather than spelling out again what has already been spelt out for you countless times before, I'll attempt a different approach and use that last response as the basis for this answer. Salvio has stated that consensus is not "technically required" for a bold action, such as the removal of a diagram, and you seem to acknowledge this fact in the third sentence above. I therefore fail to understand the purpose of the fourth sentence - since consensus is not "technically required", whether there was consensus "in fact" is irrelevant to the discussion. To address the fifth sentence, there is therefore no answer to be given to the question referred to in the fourth sentence, because the third sentence renders it meaningless. Now, do you accept this refutation, or must this tendentiousness continue indefinitely? Considering the warnings that you have received, I don't think that the latter option would be wise, and I advise that you just drop it forthwith - the expression "making a mountain out of a molehill" comes to mind. Lastly, although your concern about me being "angry" is appreciated, I am not in actual fact "angry" - just a bit confused at how understanding something so simple could turn out to be such a challenge. SuperMarioMan 15:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC) SuperMarioMan, as you are well aware, many small details contribute to the whole. "molehills" as you call them become mountains when accumulated. If your argument is applied to every single detail of this article, it obviously has a drastic affect on the meaning of the content. I suggest for everyone here to take SuperMarioMan's lead and to remove every single detail that is disputed. Do a "bold revert" on every detail that is disputed and let the burden fall on those who would like to add the information back. That's the rules here. Let's follow the guidelines as viewed by SuperMarioMan. Wikipedia has strict rules about "living persons" but doesn't seem to mind pushing misinformation out to the masses that could very well influence a trial that is currently ongoing; a trial that will decide if 2 people spend a quarter century behind bars. So I repeat the request that all participants take SuperMarioMan's lead and remove all disputed information from the article. If we are to follow the guidelines set forth by SuperMarioMan then this should be done immediately. BruceFisher (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC) Your willful and pointed misinterpretation of just about all that I've said above does nothing to help matters, Bruce. Attempts at gaming Wikipedia are often not worth the effort, and calls for others to do so are not sensible. Sorry, but twisting my words into something absurdly counter-intuitive and counter-productive simply isn't a clever tactic. SuperMarioMan 17:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC) SuperMarioMan, you should run for public office. You are a pro at talking endlessly with out ever answering a question. You don't seem to have a problem with the diagram other than the fact that those who you disagree with believe it should be included. This "molehill" has been added and removed at least 8 times. All this does is keep people running in circles and allows those who control the article to maintain the content they desire. I don't think you took great care in deciding to do a "bold revert," instead you pushed your agenda knowing full well that it would annoy those you don't care for. Feel free to report me again. I know you will be itching to do so. I am speaking the truth and anyone with a clear head can see it. Where are the neutral administrators to clean up this disaster? BruceFisher (talk) 17:50, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus for the diagram to be there. When it was removed there was no consensus to remove it. At this time the only thing preventing it from being there is crass WP:WIKILAWYERING which tries to claim there must be 100% agreement to do something the people who don't want it there doesn't agree with while at the same time they insist they do not even need a simple majority to do the things they want to do. This is unacceptable, and not how Wikipedia's policies work.

I have restored the image. There is no need to wait any longer, both because the people who removed it did not wait for consensus for their side (which never came) and because we currently have a clear consensus.

Now of course, that consensus can change later should more or better arguments for why it should not be there be presented or so forth. DreamGuy (talk) 18:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I still think the image needs improvement, not going to get chance tonight to do it. Does anyone else (DreamGuy?) have chance to make the improvements (in case my !vote in the above section is not clear I don't think the current image is adequate to go in "as is") --Errant ^(chat!) 18:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant,the diagram has been discussed endlessly and the majority think it belongs in the article. SuperMarioMan removed it and he doesn't even seem to have a strong opinion against it. I find that odd. How many do you need to agree in order to consider it a consensus? We are told that discussing why it was removed isn't helpful? I don't follow this logic at all. Many aspects of this article are disputed yet still remain in the article. Why not remove every detail that is disputed and leave the burden on those who want to attempt to reinstate it? I don't think honest answers to these simply straight forward questions will be a distraction to this discussion. I am curious where the neutral administrators have gone. This article needs their attention immediately or it needs to be taken offline completely until the ongoing trial has a decided outcome. BruceFisher (talk) 18:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

or it needs to be taken offline completely until the ongoing trial has a decided outcome.; you won't find me disagreeing there. Preferably for a couple of years until those with super strong views have lost interest in the matter. On the subject of the image; numerous legit problems have been raised with the current example. I think they need to be resolved before placement. There is no rush, if it takes a week it takes a week. *shrug* Don't worry about it. The slower it moves the better really, on contentious subjects like this (in my experience anyway). --Errant ^(chat!) 18:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

"SuperMarioMan removed it and he doesn't even seem to have a strong opinion against it. I find that odd." In the time that has passed since I removed the image, I've changed my opinion to a certain extent. It won't be re-inserted by me, but neither will I remove it again. How is all of this "odd" or in some manner unusual? I resent how in the last two to three days my username has been clumsily dragged through the mud on this subject as if to have some sort of punishment handed down. Please leave it. SuperMarioMan 18:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Dreamguy, thank you for your attention here. I had not had the chance to read your comment when I posted above. I am asking that you please continue to give the needed attention to this article. You are clearly a neutral voice. BruceFisher (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Dreamguy mentioned above that he reinstated the picture but I do not see it in the article. Why is that? BruceFisher (talk) 19:19, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

A quick look at the article history indicates John deleted it. I agree that the diagram isn't perfect, but strongly object to his check in comment that indicated that certain editors opinions don't count on the talk page. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would ask that DreamGuy take action against John for deleting the diagram once again without any discussion whatsoever. Is this really how Wikipedia is designed to operate? BruceFisher (talk) 04:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed it for the second time (I did not delete it) because I still think it's important that if we are to have a plan of the flat it should be as accurate and as well-sourced as possible. On a high profile article like this, we cannot use an image that is the wrong shape and is plastered with disclaimers. See also the objections from four other established Wikipedians. Regarding consensus, as I have said before, everyone's opinions count, but on a matter of what does and doesn't meet our criteria for inclusion, I take users like Tarc, Errant, Hipocrite or FormerIP more seriously than someone who has only ever edited this article. And of course, the onus is on those wishing to include something to demonstrate consensus; we don't ever need consensus to delete poorly sourced or suspect material. I hope that makes sense. --John (talk) 05:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

John, someone will draw a diagram to scale and you will come back and say that we have no idea what the exact measurements are because we weren't inside the cottage taking measurements and you will delete it again. This debate has very little to do with the diagram itself but rather what side of the debated added the diagram in the first place. This debate over a minor detail highlights the problem with this entire article. If FornerIP added the diagram we wouldn't be having this debate. Its really that simple. Before someone takes the time to do the work, please let us all know if you will accept a drawing of the floor plan without exact measurements. Keep in mind that this is a simple floor plan to give readers a general sense of where the murder occurred. It also shows the reader that the cottage had 2 bathrooms. Please be honest and upfront with your answer. Do not allow someone to take the time and effort to create a better floor plan only to come in and delete it again. BruceFisher (talk) 11:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

John Bruce is absolutely right. No cogent argument has been made against the diagram other than regarding it's image quality. A clear consensus believes it is helpful to the article, so let's not bicker about font size and color while the article suffers for its non-inclusion.LedRush (talk) 13:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, LedRush - don't you mean "Bruce is absolutely right"? SuperMarioMan 13:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Um...I knew SOMEBODY was right. Thanks SuperMario.LedRush (talk) 21:33, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought SuperMarioMan was now neutral on this issue? Has his position changed again? It's clear that the majority feel the diagram belongs in the article. From what I can tell, consensus only applies to certain aspects of this article. The group cannot even agree on what the term consensus means so the apparent confusion causes the diagram to remain out of the article therefore allowing the minority to prevail. Can someone show me the link to the Wiki guideline that states that the minority vote rules? BruceFisher (talk) 16:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus is determined through strength of arguments, not through a simple numerical majority - the stronger arguments of a smaller group can therefore outweigh the weaker arguments of a larger group. And no, my opinion hasn't "changed again" - I was simply remarking that LedRush appears to agree with you much more than with John, and was therefore slightly confused by his declaration that "John is absolutely right". On a side note, the slow edit war that has started to rage over the image has forced the article to enter another period of full protection... SuperMarioMan 17:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Led Rush is confused about anything. I think he sees exactly what's going on. Thanks for being there for him tho. I am sure he appreciates your kindness. Maybe he will send you some Wiki cookies. Yes, the article is under full protection again and if you take notice, the diagram is back in the article. My best guess would be that the full protection was caused by the diagram being repeatedly removed. BruceFisher (talk) 17:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is under protection because certain editors were edit warring, rather than discussing. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Your vicarious gratitude is appreciated, Bruce. Thanks also for the recommendation about Wiki Cookies - I'm not desperate for more of those right now, but thanks for putting in a good word for me nevertheless. One important point, however: according to the notice at the top of the article, "This protection is not an endorsement of the current version". Furthermore, an uninvolved user has still not determined the consensus with regard to inclusion or exclusion of the image. Most users at the topic have voiced their opinions; it is now a matter of waiting for an external judgement to be made, in accordance with Berean Hunter's guidance at the head of this section. Being neutral overall on this subject, I will accept whatever consensus that may be. SuperMarioMan 19:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

"Being neutral overall on this subject" - usually when people are neutral on a subject they don't put so much time in on that subject. They also don't do bold reverts on that subject that they don't feel strongly about. You are right in the middle of the edit warring mentioned above, yet you are now neutral. This can't get much more convoluted. DreamGuy voiced his opinion on his talk page about this article. I suggest that everyone read it. BruceFisher (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

First of all, making one single revert doesn't equate to "being in the middle of the edit-warring". Second, that happened days ago - why is it still bothering you days later? Third, I would respectfully argue that the matter is only "convoluted" because you cannot let go and insist on over-analysing each detail to the point of tedium, demanding answers for questions that have already been explained to you and refusing to listen to what numerous others have politely pointed out more than once. Fourth, what point are you actually trying to make, and is this discussion actually supposed to go anywhere? I'll note that an earlier comment on this talk page recommended that we all stop discussing each other and return our focus to the article itself - may I request that you please do so? SuperMarioMan 21:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Image at Commons

It is somewhat frustrating to see someone attempt to delete the file from Commons here. That isn't the place to have that kind of deletion discussion in light of this one going on. I don't believe that is just a coincidence. There needs to be more good faith than this.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Police Interviews

The paragraph about Amanda’s written note recanting the “confession” stating that “She ‘stood by’ her accusation of Lumumba” is taken out of context and should include her entire statement from the written note in order to be WP:NPOV.

"I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house." Turningpointe (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The required edit is a bit more complicated. The third paragraphs of this section covers the same events as the second paragraphs. They should be merged into one paragraph and cleaned up. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

If we can get a replacement that has consensus, we can request an admin to make the change. Anyone have a suggestion on how this might look to start the process? Ravensfire (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I will give it a shot early next week. --Footwarrior (talk) 13:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite, "People Arrested for the Murder: Rudy Guede"

--Tjholme (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC) I propose the following as replacement for the current section on Rudy Guede:

Rudy Hermann Guede (born 26 December 1986, Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire[18]) was aged 20 at the time of the murder. He had come to Perugia at the age of five with his father,[19] who worked as a labourer in the 1990s.[20] At the age of 16, when his father left Italy, Guede was informally adopted by the family of a local businessman.[19] He also had an aunt who lived in Lecco, about 50 km north of Milan, who he sometimes lived with. Though unemployed at the time of the murder, Guede had acquired joint Italian nationality and sporadically studied accounting and hotelkeeping.[20] Guede had no record of a criminal conviction at the time of the murder but was well-known to the police as a petty criminal. He had been arrested in connection with the burglary of a Milan daycare center and for possessing stolen goods from an earlier second story burglary of a Perugian law office. After Guede's arrest in the Kercher murder, local bartender Christian Tramontano made a statement to police indicating that he recognized Guede as the man he had confronted four months earlier when he discovered him burglarizing his home in the night. According to Tramontano, he awoke to find a young black man rummaging through his belongings in his second floor bedroom. He confronted the man and chased him downstairs to the locked front door. Unable to escape, the man turned on him and brandished first a chair then a knife to keep him at bay [74]. Nick Squires of The Daily Telegraph states, "He became a suspect in the murder two weeks after Miss Kercher's body was found, when DNA tests on a bloody fingerprint and on samples taken from the body were found to match samples which police already had on file following his earlier arrests."[22]

Tjholme (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I like the re-write. I might add information about him knowing the downstairs guys and that he had only met Amanda and Meredith briefly and Raffaele not at all. Another thing to add might be that he was late on his rent and the land lady was asking for proof of employment. He also had tried to have a basketball career. Just suggestions. It's a big improvement and we can do the same with the other profiles as well.Issymo (talk) 03:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I like it as well, this is the way (effort wise) this article should be being dealt with.--Truth Mom (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Pretty good. I have no issues with this rewrite. The reader needs to know about Rudy Guede's recent past just prior to the murder. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

A little detailed IMO. Excessive detail on the Tramontano break in are not overly relevant and I would reduce the description of his arrests to "Guede was known to the police, and had been arrested several times in connection with various burlaries, but at the time of the murder had no record of a criminal convicion." --Errant ^(chat!) 18:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

With Errant's change, I'm ok with it.LedRush (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I find it odd that a suspect's history of pulling a knife when confronted during a burglary isn't relative to a knife murder where there are signs of breaking and entering. --Footwarrior (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Is there a source for "had been arrested several times in connection with various burglaries"? --FormerIP (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Digging the sources used in the above. FormerIP is right we need a source that mentions these things, the ones used above do not mention this. Also one of the sources says he did have a criminal record... so that needs to be clarified. --Errant ^(chat!) 22:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The Christian Tramontano break in is an important detail and witness. I think that should definitely be kept. It is a witness testimony for a very similar burglary where a knife was drawn.Issymo (talk) 22:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeh... but the problem is that it is unrelated to this incident. Any similarities would have to be commented on by a reliable independant source --Errant ^(chat!) 22:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Tramontano's evidence is really a very minor piece of the jigsaw. But if it is to be included, it should be mentioned that Tramontano was not able to give a positive identification of Guede, only "mi sembra di riconoscere" ("I think I recognise him" - Massei, p 34) and that the trial jury found no similarities between the Tramontano burglary and the staged break in at Kercher's flat in any case. --FormerIP (talk) 00:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

If it's added, the "trial jury" actually is only "Massei". We have no idea what the other jurors thought. So that is technically wrong.(GeniusApprentice (talk) 00:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC))

Demsey's book and at least a couple news articles could be used as references for the Christian Tramontano incident. We don't need to reference Massei as a source. Guede was never arrested for this incident, but he was arrested for the Milan school break in. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The defence aren't paying us, so we would need Massei as a source in order to ensure NPOV. --FormerIP (talk) 10:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would hope FormerIP's personal attack above would be stricken.

Also, I thought it had been argued extensively above that we should only use primary sources for non-controversial statements of fact, and that secondary sources are better in general.LedRush (talk) 12:18, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP seems to change his argument to whatever he thinks at any particular time will help rationalize whatever he wanted done in the first place, which is why he often contradicts himself.DreamGuy (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The Dempsey book is a more than adequate WP:RS for this topic, and many others. It does not violate WP:NPOV in any way to cite sources who have opinions, otherwise no sources would be allowed in this article at all. Dempsey is a reliable source with notable commentary on the case as well as a secondary source making mention of notable topics already mentioned in primary sources. Attempts to censor Dempsey as a source are clearly based on a complete misunderstanding of policy as well as the demonstrated desire for the article to take sides. DreamGuy (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Dempsey is RS for some material. It is probably fine for fact. Opinion, unless supported in other RS's (preferably ones with different viewpoints) should be attributed. And we should take care with BLP material taken from the book. The problem with taking factual information from such sources is that opinionated authors often present facts in ways which support their views, so it is good practice to be reasonably cynical about material. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with admin:Errant that the piece is a bit wordy and needs better

citations. I didn't want to disrespect the previous editor by overwriting his/her text completely so I tried to insert content into the existing framework. Admittedly it doesn't flow as well as I would have liked. However, in a case involving a knife murder and evidence of a second story break-in I think the fact that the one fully convicted murderer in the case has a history of involvement in burglaries featuring second story break-ins, broken windows and knives is more than simply germane, it's critical in painting the correct, neutral picture of the man. I don't want to paint him as either demon or choirboy.. Much of his life and history appears to be quite normal, but there's also more than a suggestion of a dark side, and the casual reader should get that impression as well. As for Tramontano, his statement was strong enough to be allowed into the trial so I'd think it's strong enough to be mentioned in an article about the case. Maybe with the insertion of the word 'thought' to more accurately reflect his statement. Tjholme (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like discussion has run it's course on this issue. Can I assume we have enough consensus to go ahead with inserting my piece on the 17th ? The rewrite has good support and no vigorous or compelling opposition, i.e. probably as close to consensus as this group is likely to get. Please state for the voting record, support or oppose.Tjholme (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Tjholme (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

General comments

I revisit the article every few days and I believe that the present article as it reads now reflects more of a NPOV than previously. Despite the fuss and back and forth it is getting better, in my opinion.

I still feel that things in the article that are presented as fact but still very uncertain to be an actual fact, even if backed by a RS, should be either left out or both sides presented with different sources. Just a few comments on some of the things that I think need changing. The reference in Micheli to the body being moved and/or arranged after death (#29) was not subscribed to by Massei (if I remember correctly). This should be removed or a comment added. On Guede, there is still some confusion over his sentencing and fast track reduction as I covered in a previous edit request. It is listed as a 30 year sentence in the first trial (correct but he would still get a one-third reduction due to the fast track to 20 years), and 16 years on appeal (not correct, the Borsini Motivation changes his sentence from 30 to 24 years (which makes his actual time served now 16 years after the one-third fast track reduction). It should not be listed one way (30 years-without fast track reduction) and then another (16 years with a fast track reduction). There is a statement that Guede was charged with theft and this is not correct as he was not charged or convicted of theft. This is listed as citation needed but a reading of the Micheli report makes it clear that no theft charges or conviction for theft occurred. The article makes it seem as though Guede was originally tied to the murder through his DNA and it is my understanding that the original link to Guede was his fingerprints on file with the police (because he was an immigrant-photo and fingerprints of immigrants required under Italian law) and then later the DNA was confirmed to be his.

The book by Fiorenza Sarzanini (Amanda and the Others) does not belong on the book list. Although this is a known journalist, the paper and the journalist were sued and Amanda won over this book. It is not a true "reference" in my opinion, unless your are interested in the sex lives and private information of the people involved, others including people that were either witnesses or friends.RoseMontague (talk) 11:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

At this point it is clear the article will not and cannot progress without a formal resolution process. We have some editors who have expressed statements making it very clear that they think this article should minimize all mention of important views on the topic just because they disagree with them and wrongly portray them as the views of a tiny minority (the wholly discredited WP:FRINGE argument). They have also demonstrated that they will ignore consensus and edit war on even minor content to get their way. Further, when they do so the article either has to stay the way they want or they edit war some more and get it locked down, preventing any other edits to improve it. In other words, since no admin has yet stepped in to stop their bad behavior, and indeed a few of them are admins who previously abused their admin status to advance their side, they are essentially rewarded for breaking policies and engaging in obstructionist behavior by having the article locked from future changes. That's a masterful bit of gaming the system right there.

I think between previous actions and the BLP notice board and ANI posts about this, an RFC would be redundant. Mediation might work, but it's always a gamble that you get a mediator who knows what he or she is doing, and I think it was already tried. I think, however, that jumping straight to ArbCom will not work yet as they want to see more evidence of trying to work things out. Any thoughts? DreamGuy (talk) 17:58, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

How DO we get an Admin to step in and stop their behavior? I agree with your discription of the situation. The whole fight over the diagram has made this clear.Issymo (talk) 06:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it is premature to ask for further dispute resolution. I will be back on task this week, spending a couple of hours per day on this article (if things go as expected). I will be acting as an ordinary editor, not as an admin, but I am hopeful that I can bring all sides to some level of agreement.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know.. I've warned some people for bad behaviour, mistakes and thoughtless/incidendary comments (including yourself as it happens). I think the next sensible step is to crack down on people moaning about "gaming" of the system, POV pushers and various other accusations with the reminder that if evidence exists of these things the talk page is not the place to get it resolved (rather, take it to the relevant noticeboard). That should be sufficient. Things do seem to be moving though - there was an issue raised above the myself and LedRush worked through and we eventually came out with some improved content. The image is gaining support and hopefully someone will have time to make the necessary improvements that will probably gain it full support. etc etc. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant, You recently implied that pro-innocence editors were causing most of the conflict by pushing their Fringe POV. I am therefore very leary of you saying the next step is to crack down on people who are moaning about things and post on the correct board. As pointed out before, the reason there is more conflict recently is because one point of view was blocked and deleted before. I hope this is not the case that you believe the problem will be solved by reverting to that standard.Issymo (talk) 04:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Issy; no, not what I said at all. We have pro-* editors active on the page. My observation is that pro-innocence is currently a) the most vocal and b) the most disruptive. But pro-guilt people appear to be active as well. Many of both types appear to be no problem. On the other hand some do appear to be a problem, attacking editors and not the content, and failing to apply policy correctly. Tensions are frayed, so people do silly things and it all spirals out of hand. The idea is not to block or delete an POV, rather it is to stop people writing threads such as this which do zero for improving article content and are simply insinuating the existence of a problem, in the wrong forum, without sufficient evidence. If these problems exists (and they may well do) there is a correct forum for raising them. At the moment such insinuations are being used to try and win arguments, and that is disruptive --Errant ^(chat!) 07:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

My observation, for whatever it may be worth, is that we have pro- and anti- editors active on the page, and some of them have been equally disruptive. The last thing I was involved with on the page was in answering a highly disruptive argument about a very simple statement of obvious fact, easily sourced. The statement is now in the article, meticulously (and, to some extent, ridiculously) sourced. Having said that, I do agree very much with Errant that threads about behavior aren't nearly as productive as threads about content, and so I hope we can all agree to spend a few days trying not to have drama but just focus in a very boring and meticulous way on sourcing the article as carefully as possible.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like we are moving toward the same problem this article dealt with in the past. Just get rid of the people that have raised their voice to the problems that clearly exist here and all will be well. If you ban everyone then the talk page might calm down but Wikipedia fails. I am amazed that certain people refuse to see what is actually happening here. The diagram is a perfect example. That diagram was removed because one side doesn't like the person who created it. If a person on their side created the diagram there would be no debate. One user who claims to be neutral on the diagram did a bold revert anyway. Why? If you go look at the talk pages of these users you will see that this small group are all friends. I could hire a firm to draw up a professional floor plan and it would be instantly attacked here. Excuses would be made that I didn't use exact measurements or that I put the bidet in the wrong place. Its not about the diagram. Its about a small group of people that are hellbent on controlling this article at all costs. Your proposed solution is to ban people like me that have stood up to that group. I don't expect the article to read as I want it to read. That would be ridiculous. What I do want is a neutral view presented in the article. That is currently not the case. I am asking that neutral voices come here to look at the situation and help to resolve it. Jimbo Wales came here briefly and had many concerns. He was attacked by the same group that removed the diagram. One user had the nerve to ask him why he even thought to come take a look. Jimbo was surprised by the hostility shown to him and I am honestly surprised that he was shown such little respect. He is a busy man and I am sure he doesn't have time to work on this article. Where are the neutral administrators? Why hasn't a neutral voice come in to look at what is happening? Someone needs to stand up and do what's right. This has gone on far too long. I am sure this comment violates a dozen Wikipedia guidelines. You can post links to all of those guidelines or you can step back, look at the big picture, then try to do something positive to make Wikipedia a better place. What will it be? BruceFisher (talk) 00:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me as if the intent of the editors Dreamguy speaks of above is not as clear to some is it might be. A perusal of the entire history of the article reveals objections made, improvements offered, objections made, material added, taken down, improved and added again, taken down again then re-added and taken down again with new objections midst a tag team of editors (those Dreamguy refers to in his post above) Wikilawyering details, requesting new sources, denying the validity of established ones ad infinitum then demanding disputed info be taken to a more "relevant notice board". That somewhere in all of this two individuals managed to come out with any "improved content" - somewhat of a boast made with what seems a certain degree of amazement - is not at all an indication that things are improving. The fact that Users who disagree or have continuously voiced disapproval with the POV the article has taken have not been banned lately is not a sign of improvement. That the image was removed the last time is indicative that nothing much has changed and won't; there are new eyes here so certain behaviors may be curbed for a time but the overall intent of the editors remains clear; it is the same as it ever was. Until such time as the article can reflect a true picture of the controversies surrounding the case it should be concealed from public view. Deserved or not, Wiki has a certain credibility with the public and, even with the disclaimer at the top of the page, it is unlikely any will walk away from reading it any better informed than they would be by reading the 2 sites that are dedicated to the prosecutors continuance of the convictions and the character assassination of 2 individuals and their families.Fancourt (talk) 00:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I could not agree more. I think it would serve everyone best if this article was removed from public view until all appeals have been exhausted and the decisions finalized. BruceFisher (talk) 01:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree 500% with everything said above, this is absolutely out of hand and ridiculous. --Truth Mom (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't. I think Bruce's suggestion would embarrassingly show the world that Wikipedia cannot control its editors, has capitulated to POV pushers, and has lost the ability to enforce its own policies. How the current situation will somehow magically change after the appeal/s decisions are known is beyond me because the warring will just change tack unless policies are rigidly enforced. My 2C. Moriori (talk) 02:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it would show that certain topics are not appropriate for Wikipedia. This case is ongoing and there is great concern that public opinion can adversely affect the outcome of the trial. The lawsuit pending against Lifetime for a movie they aired wrongly depicting the case is a good example to show that public opinion is a real concern. If there is genuine concern about Wikipedia looking like it cannot control its editors then this article should be removed immediately because it is a perfect example of a situation that is out of control. BruceFisher (talk) 03:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Much as I just said, Wikipedia would be showing the world it cannot control its editors. Heaven forbid. Moriori (talk) 03:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

• Various calls for the article to, in some manner, be restricted from public view seem ill-informed with regard to Wikipedia policies. I do not believe that there is standing precedent for taking pages off-line unless WP:BLP violations are blatant (i.e. false statements are so egregious and endemic that a major blanking and revision deletion is merited) and the continued presence of the article in question, in its cuurent state, would be tantamount to the project endorsing libel. I think that some of the arguments expressed above are quite exaggerating and overstating the issues at hand - although the article is of course unstable, disputed and in bad shape, BLP has not blatantly been violated and a complete removal seems to me to be completely out of the question here. Dispute resolution involves dealing with conflicts between users, not rejecting articles as unsalvageable and erasing them until events in the real world have moved on. There should be no pre-emptive withdrawals of articles simply on account of lawsuits against media organisations such as Lifetime, for example. I mostly echo Moriori's sentiments. SuperMarioMan 03:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

What would your position be if I thought the article should remain online? BruceFisher (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Since the idea of removing the article is drastic, to put it in mild terms, then we would be in agreement, and this discussion would probably not be taking place. What is your point? SuperMarioMan 10:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think my point is perfectly clear. BruceFisher (talk) 12:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Moriori, was the "heaven forbid" intended to be sarcasm? If so then your position isn't entirely clear. BruceFisher (talk) 03:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article so needed to hide it instead. Moriori (talk) 04:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Everything DreamGuy said in the initial comment is correct. The fact is that those people with a bias are breaking the rules and should be put on warning status and blocked. Just because they wrongly blocked people doesn't mean they shouldn't themselves be blocked. In fact, maybe it means they should be blocked even more. Putting Wikipedia first is not what they are doing, but an agenda, which is against WP rules. The answer is the regular protocols for breaking those rules and disrupting the WP regular process. Perk10 (talk) 04:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Perk10

Moriori, you wrote: "It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article so needed to hide it instead." Surely the thing that is worse for Wikipedia's reputation is to pretend that everything is OK and carry on with 'business as usual'. The reality is that some of Wikipedia's editors are out of control here, whether for reasons of pursuing a particular POV or simply because they see themselves as 'senior' or 'more experienced' as editors. More experienced and superior to Jimbo Wales, in fact. That is fine if you think that Wikipedia is best served by editors who can't see the wood for the trees, but it totally fails to serve the average reader who wants to find a balanced summary of what has happened in this murder case. Right now, anyone can spend an hour on the internet and quickly get a pretty good idea that there is a controversy and that opposing camps have very different views about what went on in Perugia in November 2007 and subsequently. Wikipedia is failing so badly here in its mission to explain that there is no way that I would ever suggest that anyone come here to find out about the case. And judging by what has gone on here over recent weeks and months there is zero chance that anything is going to change for the better. I conclude that Wikipedia is unable to guarantee the efficacy of this article, so my question is, 'What is better, to leave it here in this state and have it damage Wikipedia's reputation indefinitely, or take it down and fix it offline?' We all know what is going on here and it stinks. I have not even tried to make constructive suggestions about content yet, because I have seen what happens to those who do. NigelPScott (talk) 10:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

"It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article..." That horse is already out of the barn and well down the highway.Fancourt (talk) 10:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, I honestly can't foresee a removal of the article. Wikipedia hosts articles that are far more controversial in nature even than this one, but still they have always survived unless in situations where there has been severe WP:BLP infringement. Too much is being made of Wikipedia's perceived reputation, here - the project is a work-in-progress, that depends on volunteer contributions, that is constantly expanding and evolving, and that has no deadlines at all despite weak arguments to the contrary. Each page carries a link to a disclaimer, which states that Wikipedia is far from perfect as a source of information. Some of the most divisive scientific topics, such as Global warming and Intelligent design, have reached Featured Article status, and have appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page. The same is true of prominent living people who have both much support and much opposition, such as Barack Obama. These articles did not reach that level overnight, and FA was not achieved by removing the article from public view so that it could be "fixed" in private - this goes against most of Wikipedia's core principles (i.e. that it is the free-content encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, at any time). Instead, arguments between editors were resolved through various dispute resolution processes. In all likelihood, the Murder of Meredith Kercher article will remain fragile and much debated for years to come, even after all appeals are concluded. There is no magic solution. SuperMarioMan 10:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting that it's being argued that the article should be kept online because only the most egregious breaches of Wikpedia's BLP policies could justify its removal. Yet when anyone tries to add anything to the article, BLP concerns are waved around to justify things like excluding a reference to a newspaper article suggesting that a witness has hearing problems, on the grounds that a claim that someone has hearing problems defames them or something. Still trying to get my head around the rules here! Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 11:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You can formally nominate the article for deletion at WP:AFD. If you are having trouble with the formatting, I'll happily do it for you - merely ask me on my talk page and include the statement you'd like placed at the top of the AFD. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Did I suggest nominating the article for deletion? Perhaps you were talking to someone else. Regardless, I'm sure WP:PointlessWasteofTime and WP:JumpingThroughEndlessFutileHoops would apply to any such request. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 13:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You and others tried to add a questionable passage attacking the reliability of a witness. That is the problem; you're here fighting for and advocating for one of the case participants. I've only looked into this article for the past 2 weeks or so, but from the outset it was quite clear that the problem lies with editors...most brand-new, others not so much...who are here to ensure that their version of "the truth" is made clear in wiki-article form. At this point there seems to be nothing short of formal mediation or an ArbCom filing that will clear this situation up. Tarc (talk) 13:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

References to articles in major newspapers by named journalists which cast doubt on the reliability of witnesses need to be included to allow Wikipedia's readers to decide for themselves on how reliable the witness is. It's not as though Wikipedia itself is writing or endorsing the newspaper article. To censor that information is to misinform the reader that there are no questions about the witness's hearing ability. The source of the article, OGGI, is not qualitatively different to the many other newspaper sources referred to in the Wiki article. Your use of the weasel words 'questionable' and 'attacking' is noted. Please see WP:WORDS. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:WORDS is meant for article content not talkpages.TMCk (talk) 14:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see. I think you sort of missed the point there. the WP:WORDS guidelines on weasel words seemed sensible and worth using in general. I wasn't making a merely technical Wikilawyering point. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Pointless.TMCk (talk) 14:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Pointless is when you enter into a conversation just to try and nail somebody for a perceived inaccuracy with words while ignoring the actual content of the argument. And then further insulting the person after this is pointed out to you is even more pointless. Worse, it fosters animosity unnecessarily. Please try and stay constructive.LedRush (talk) 14:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Tarc has probably nailed it. On the issue you raise, Cody (and I apologise for being blunt, but my patience on this is fraying rapidly), you tried to insert that the witness was "near deaf" based on one line in a newspaper article which said she had hearing trouble. When the neutral, factual information appears to be that an audio-metric test was asked for. --Errant ^(chat!) 14:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant, unless you've found something in the Oggi translation I've missed, you're being massively unfair to Cody. The issue is, as I saw it, that Cody felt Oggi was a sufficiently reliable source for the witness having hearing issues, while others did not. The people who didn't think it was sufficient won the day. I don't have a problem with the process too much, even if I lean slightly towards disagreeing with the result. I'm not sure what netral, factual information you're talking about (whether that means you don't find Oggi neutral or factual, or if you've found a different translation of the Oggi article that makes it clear they were saying something else). However, I do agree that it's time to move on from this issue and focus on others.LedRush (talk) 14:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that dispute resolution or mediation will work when the issues here are so pervasive, yet not well defined. I think it is best that we just try and focus on specific edit requests one at a time, and hope that we have some more uninvolved editors take the appropriate actions when necessary. I would think that the biggest issue from the "teach the guilt" side is that the "teach the controversy" people often want to add things without reliable sources, and often with synth or OR. These issues can be dealt with as they arise on those respective boards. The biggest issue from the teach the controversy people is it seems that the teach the guilt people engage in excessive wikilawyering and endless jumping through hoops to get anything done. This is a much harder issue to address, and it has been endemic here for a long time. Hopefully, if we keep some of the new, less-involved editors to help guide us through the issues, the article can be improved.LedRush (talk) 14:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

An audiometric test was asked for, but that's not the source of the newspaper's information. The test was requested years ago in the original trial and the source for that is the undisputed Massei Report. The audiometric tests were not to establish that the witness had hearing problems but to establish if anyone could have heard what she claimed to hear from her flat through double glazing. That and the newspaper's allegation are two separate unconnected entities which you seem to be inexplicably trying to merge into one. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

but that's not the source of the newspaper's information; when I asked you to elucidate on this you said that you did not know the source of their information, and yet you say this with great certainty (you also said something along the lines of "she's old, so she must be hard of hearing"...). You also presented the information as "near deaf", which is an extremely non-neutral interpretation of the material! An audio-metric test is designed to test an individual's hearing ability, it may or may not be the source of the Oggi material, we have no idea. However, when faced with the two piece of information I know which is the factual/verifiable piece :) --Errant ^(chat!) 14:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is the Oggi article not factual or verifiable? I understand why it wasn't included (see my post above), but I'm not sure why you're engaging in this particular argument.LedRush (talk) 14:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Just griping when I shouldn't be. We hashed over why the Oggi material is not great for BLP material (if the article opened with a mention of, say, Knox being promiscuous would you consider it usable?). That sort of material is a precise example of what needs to be avoided in this (and any other) article. Unfortunately such material serves the purposes of those trying to slant the article towards X or Y (and is the source of the entire problem) so we will continue to see them. I've had my gripe though :). Back to other issues. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The audiometric test referred to in the trial was not a test on the witness herself but a general test to see if it was humanly possible to hear what she claimed to hear from the position she claimed to hear it, given that nobody else in her building heard anything. OGGI are not going to make specific claims of hearing problems based on that. Your assumption that they did is extremely strange to me. OGGI have been reporting reliably on this story for a long time and have boots on the ground in Perugia. They can interview anyone they want. They are just as valid or more valid a news source as any of the others in this article. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Are they not? How do you know? What backs that up? What backs up their claim/content? That it has not been possible to find this piece of information in another source is, ultimately, telling. Oggi is a poor source for that claim, and the material is worthless from the perspective of an encyclopaedia. Gripe done with. I'm off to do something constructive --Errant ^(chat!) 15:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]But why would we need to find what sources a RS uses? That's not part of the editor's job at WP, to my knowledge. The source is reliable and verifiable. However, it has been determined that the source is merely not reliable enough for claims of this nature. As I said above, this isn't a huge deal, but I don't know why this is still being argued, and why it is being argued on these very strage terms and with these unnecessarily accusatory characterizations of events.LedRush (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I was just griping forget it :) I've done. FWIW we cannot simply recite what a source says ad-infinitum, we have an editorial capacity beyond that. In this case Oggi are presenting this information as obvious fact, but no one has been able to substantiate it with information as to why that is. Oggi are not a reliable in relation to judgements about the witness (i.e. if it is them deciding she is hard of hearing, it is their opinion) and without clarification of their source we have no way to know where this comes from. This is all the basics of BLP and sourcing. A better way to think about this is; deal with the piece of information rather than lock it with the source. So the information presented is "The witness has hearing problems" - now we substantiate that with RS's if possible. The only source presented is Oggi who mention it in passing without substantiation, and Oggi are not a reliable source in relation to making a judgement on hearing. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I said basically the same thing above. So why don't we stop the accusatory rehashes and move on?LedRush (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see the meatpuppet farm has arisen again

accusations like that are not helpful and are disruptive. If you have clear evidence of such things take it to the relevant place --Errant (chat!) 15:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
User:Turningpointe: created July 2010: no edits to any other area, only active recently User:Fancourt: created 11 October 2010: first edit 4 April 2011: no edits to any other area User:Issymo: created 5 January 2011: no edits to any other area User:BruceFisher: created 22 March 2011: no edits to any other area User:RoseMontague: created 23 March 2011: no edits to any other area User:GeniusApprentice: created 31 March 2011: no edits to any other area User:CodyJoeBibby: created 1 April 2011: no edits to any other area User:NigelPScott: created January 2008: one edit until 2010, then no edits to any other area You're not fooling anyone, you know. 86.166.162.54 (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:DRAMAOUT

[Note from Jimbo: please let's all sign this and have a great week! Please sign if you can!]

In the spirit of WP:DRAMAOUT, I hereby pledge to try my best to avoid comment on the behavior of other editors of this or related articles at least until it is past midnight this coming Friday night everywhere in the world. I will try to follow this no matter how annoying someone might be. I further pledge to set aside my own views of this case, to understand that Wikipedia is not the place to find guilt or innocence nor to try to sway public opinion. I will focus my energy that Wikipedia fairly and accurately describes the case and controversies surrounding it in such a way that all of us - no matter what our beliefs about the case - can shake hands at the end of the week and say "We are proud of what we have done here."

1. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
2. Hipocrite (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
3. --Truth Mom (talk) 16:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
4. --Footwarrior (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
5. --LedRush (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
6. --⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
7. --BruceFisher (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
8. Sorry for earlier, grouchy day for me :) not my usual approach! --Errant ^(chat!) 17:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
9. Fancourt (talk) 18:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
10. --Tjholme (talk) 19:38, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
11. --NigelPScott (User talk:NigelPScott) 22.25, 11 April, 2011 (UTC) NigelPScott (talk) 21:25, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
12. --Perk10 11 April, 2011 (Tildes aren't working on the computer I am using at the moment. Will edit when I can log on with my usual computer. Thanks.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perk10 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
13. --Issymo (talk) 02:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
14. --CodyJoeBibby CodyJoeBibby (talk) 09:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
15. --Turningpointe (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Washington Superior Court Judge calls Knox 100% Innocent after researching case and details for 3 years

This is just another article that evidences actual controversy over the ruling in the the Knox and Sollecito trials. It gives a good overview of how many in the US perceived the Italian media coverage of the trial, as well as some popular controversies in the first trial. I would think the cite could be used in a new sentence in the media coverage section, or merely as an added citation to sentences in that section. [4] LedRush (talk) 17:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, off the bat I'd say that the personal investigative is 100% irrelevant; despite the judicial position held, nothing qualifies this man as an expert in the field. Apart from that, what I also notice about much of the Knox-is-innocent sourcing is that it originates from Seattle-centric media outlets, particularly seattlepi.com. Beyond the occasional Time or Vanity Fair story, is there anywhere else less...localized and too close to the source...that is keeping this "controversy" afloat? Tarc (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Are you actually disputing that the case is controversial? Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I would think that a superior court judge would be considered a general legal expert, not to mention an expert at judging the relevance of evidence and the guilt or innocence of the accused. In fact, I would say this is a judge's primary expertise.

Regarding coverage, this story was picked up in a few other outlets (radar.com, examiner online). Also, Time, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, CBS and many other major media outlets have weighed in on the controversy in the last two weeks (we even have some of these cited in the article!), so it is fair to say this case is still extremely controversial.LedRush (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Need to be a bit careful, but I see no reason not to include his opinion in the article under the critical responses, he is qualified to comment on the legal process I guess. We'd have to figure out the exact quotes but I'd be inclined to go with saying he thinks she is innocent and quote him on his views of the justice system. Perhaps: "Their justice system is great, but like our justice system, it is run by people and can be abused, mistakes can be made," --Errant ^(chat!) 17:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The balancing information would be Heavey's close family relationship to Knox [5] and the fact that he is an organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign [6]. --FormerIP (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, seems reasonable. So how about this; Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, at an April 1 2011 dinner said that he believed Knox to be innocent. He criticised the trial calling it "a terrible injustice", but said that the appeals judge "appears to be pretty fair." Thoughts? --Errant ^(chat!) 18:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with FormerIP that the balancing info must be presented. I like Errant's formulation, but wonder if we couldn't get more specific with criticisms without adding undue bulk. If not, I'm fine with Errant's, but I will go to the source and see if I can't find something both specific and appropriate.LedRush (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I dunno, I just don't see the relevance. At first it appeared to be just some non-partial judge who looked at the notes and evidence and what not and declared "she's innocent". Honestly, that was bad enough; again, what importance should be given to someone who is for all intents and purposes simply second-guessing a court case from another jurisdiction? Now that we know that this person is part and parcel to one side of the controversy, that reduces what appeared to be an impartial point of view to a partisan one. And hat we're left with is a person in the supporter camp expressing...support. Is that notable?

To LedRush; did you have any knowledge of Michael Heavey's involvement before you posted that seattlepi.com link here? Tarc (talk) 18:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't. When I read the aritcle it said that he had investigated the matter for 3 years and I assumed that he would be like the DNA experts or Moore, who started off impartially, were convinced of innocence, and then lent support to the Knox campaign. This appears to be different as he already had a connection. I think the information is still relevant, but perhaps this is better placed in the support for Knox section with an introduction to what the Friends of Amanda group is.LedRush (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant's wording sounds accurate and also addresses FormerIP's concerns. BruceFisher (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how this impartial wording could be criticized. Tarc might like to get some quotes from other US judges or lawyers who have spoken out about the fairness of Knox's trial. That would balance things out. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it really wouldn't. Private citizens expressing their personal opinions on the matter are not really relevant to the subject matter. Everyone has opinions, just like everyone has a certain famous body part. That doesn't mean they get to be name-dropped into the article, especially if they are biased. Adding a laundry list of "I agree with the verdict", "I disagree with the verdict" is the last thing this article needs to be cluttered with. Tarc (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The case is controversial. The media covers that controversy. We cite to what the media covers.LedRush (talk) 18:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

This article is evidence of controversy. The case is controversial and the article should reflect that clearly. BruceFisher (talk) 18:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither of your comments addressed what I actually said, which was discussing the relevance of people's opinions to the case. In the Support for Knox section as it stands now, we have the Knox family (obviously), Senator Cantwell (presumably the representative of the district where Knoxs' family is from, i.e. speaking for her constituents) and Hillary Clinton (in her capacity as the Secretary of State. And you wish to place the support of a partisan supporter alongside the family, a sitting Senator and the Secretary of State, simply because the SeattlePI published it?

And yes, overall there is some degree of controversy regarding the case. But what IMO some here are missing is that there's a critical difference between covering the controversy and advocating for what the controversy is about. Tarc (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find this is one of the most controversial cases of the century given the amount of books, articles, TV, film and internet coverage about it. I don't see how that's reasonably disputable. Judge Heavey's comments were reported on in the media at some length, so we refer to the fact that they were reported. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]I'm pretty sure I directly addressed your argument, but whatever. Do you think that the Friends of Amanda group is not notable enough for a "support of Knox" section, despite their widespread coverage in the news?LedRush (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for myself only - I would have no problem with such a section. Hipocrite (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush, the article you linked to does not mention the "Friends of Amanda" group, it only details Harvey making these comments on his own behalf at a Rotary Club breakfast. I will also note that the original article comes from the Bellevue Reporter, a weekly, local circular. So in summation; we have a judge, once censured for working on pro-Knox advocacy on the job and also a member of an advocacy group of same, who, over pancakes and sausages to fellow Rotarians, declares Knox "100% innocent" of the murder, a case in which he became interested after seeing it in the news. This is not encyclopedia or notable in the slightest. And Cody, "trial of the century" is a gross exaggeration; I can rattle off anything from OJ to the Menendez brothers to Son of Sam to the Scopes trial that far, far outshadows this. Also, the SeattlePI reporting the Bellevue reporter's story is hardly "media at some length". Please, tone down the hyperbole. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what your point about the article not mentioning Friends of Amanda is. I have now suggested that we introduce Friends of Amanda to the article in the "support for amanda". I also suggested that this quote from the judge could find a place in such a section, in substantially similar form to the versions that Errant and I have suggested. And while your POV on what the judge said is humorous, it is obviously not the full picture. It would be just as accurate to state that a superior court trial judge, after investigating the evidence for over 3 years, has come to the conclusion that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, and that the police actions in relation to this crime were unethical. However, that would ignore some important info, which is why we have the different formulations proposed on this thread.

Regarding the crime of the century stuff, Tarc, you listed a bunch of crimes that did not happen in this century. I don't know if this is the crime of the century or not (I would imagine crime of the decade would be a less misleading name), but I can't think of a more publicized and controversial crime in the 2000s off the top of my head.LedRush (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

If people are determined to be pedantic about it then yes, more accurately I perhaps should have said 'most controversial case this century so far'. I of course was not claiming to be able to see the future. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You're conflating two issues here. This section is about the judges comments, if you wish to add something about "friends of amanda" or whatever, then take that up somewhere new. This person's personal opinion on the case is IMO not relevant to the article; it adds no value, no meaning, this person is not a famous figure or personality and has a proven bias when it cmes to the subject matter. As for "crime of the century", I use the term colloquially, i.e. "in the last 100 years" sense. Not literally since 2001. Facepalm . Tarc (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you get your supposed colloquial use of the word 'century' as meaning the last 100 years, since both I and LedRush merely assumed you were mistaken. It can't be very colloquial if people just simply don't know what you mean. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]The issue of the Friends of Amanda has been brought up here, having grown organically out of an open dialog, as should happen on WP. If you cannot discuss these related issues in one spot, you don't have to.

[EC]On the term century, I have never, ever heard the term to mean "in the last 100 years". Perhaps this is an issue with American/UK English.LedRush (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not even the crime of this century - just off the top of my head, Andrea Yates, The Scream. Hipocrite (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of Andrea Yates. I dimly remember the Munch painting being stolen. They got it back, didn't they? Searching for Andrea Yates on Google returns 463,000 results. Searching for Amanda Knox returns 7,790,000 results. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Shows the power of a PR campaign, doesn't it? Ravensfire (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:GOOGLE. Also, can you think of a reason why a 2001 case would have fewer hits than a 2011 case? I can find multiple neutral reliable sources calling both the Munch painting and the Yates trial possible crimes of the century. Hipocrite (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure the PR campaign was responsible for the Italian and British presses for demonizing Knox and sensationalizing every aspect of her life until she was referenced as a drug addicted slut who slept with 70 men in 60 days in Italy. That's all the Knox's fault...right.LedRush (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Come on, seriously? Ravensfire (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I find the comment about the PR campaign to be out of line. If you would like to suggest that continued interest in this case has been fueled by a PR campaign then I would expect you to back that up with proof. This case remains in the news because its highly controversial, not because Amanda's family paid a firm to control the media (a claim that is absurd of course), as we have heard repeated extensively throughout this ordeal. I don't know if you realized what your statement referred to in terms of this case, but discussion involving PR campaigns are more that often directed at attacking the Knox family. The truth is Amanda's parents hired a firm to help organize interviews with the media. They were in a situation that was very new to them and asking for assistance was not out of the ordinary. BruceFisher (talk) 15:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

[6ECs]I guess it's not really productive to discuss here, but I wouldn't think those crimes close to this one in terms of controversy or media coverage. However, I haven't reasearched this and don't think we should waste or time discussing this. We don't need this to the biggest anything - we merely need to report on the controversy. (on a side note, thank you for adding to the ever expanding list of people who have biographical articles on WP despite being famous for 1 crime)LedRush (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

What was controversial about either of the cases you mention? Can you find any neutral reliable source which describes either case as more controversial than the Knox case? I think you need to give up this argument because it's futile. I have no clue who Andrea Yates is or who stole The Scream. Find something more interesting please. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest the following:

At an April 1 2011 dinner Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, said that he believed Knox is "100 percent innocent". He criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice"[, though he said that the appeals judge "appears to be pretty fair]."

I don't mind the bracketed text being there, but I'm not really sure it adds too much.LedRush (talk) 18:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am concerned that we are inserting opinions of little notability. A superior court judge who is family friends with the accused? People understand that Washington "Superior" courts are the first trial courts in Washington, right? It's superior only to the courts of Limited Jurisdiction - traffic court, small claims, and small actions. Hipocrite (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

In common law countries, superior courts just mean courts of general jurisdiction. In the US, states that name a level of court as superior are referring to the lowest form of general jurisdiction courts (i.e., above all limited jurisdiction courts, but below appellate and final (supreme) court levels).LedRush (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Right, so why are we including the opinions of a justice of such a low level court? Hipocrite (talk) 19:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess I don't see the highest trial court judge as "such a low level court" or someone who's opinion should be discounted. But, as per above, I think it's best to fold this into an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group in the "support for knox" section of the article.LedRush (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

In the grand scheme of the judicial system, state trial judges are pretty darn low. Ravensfire (talk) 20:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

(e/s's) This should definitely not go in the Media Coverage section, it's much more appropriate for the Support section since it's just uncritical reporting of what the person said. Better would be to recast it to talk about Friends of Amanda first, perhaps using one of Heavey's quotes. To dwell more on Heavey would perhaps mean balance would require a note that the person was censured (as I read it here) for actions in the same interestcarried out while a judge. Franamax (talk) 19:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Judge Heavey is known to the Knox family, as has been stated. I believe his children may have attended the same school as Amanda. That connection would have made him interested in the case, but he waded into it in public because he thinks that the evidence used to convict does not stack up. It is not reasonable to suppose that a judge would put his reputation on the line just as a favour to the family. The same goes for the other people with particular skills e.g. Steve Moore, who have spoken out. These guys have considerable careers and reputations and would not go public on a whim. It seems that as soon as anyone with credentials looks at the case and questions the judgement, some editors immediately dismiss them as friends of the accused and say they should be ignored as being biased. I would say that their views are at least as relevant as those of some of the tabloid journalists whose articles have been quoted here as reliable sources. Judge Heavey is not the only Knox advocate, or even the best qualified, but his comments are newsworthy and worthy of inclusion. I support LedRush in this and I think his form of words could be used. NigelPScott (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Franamax is right, this is definitely for the support section. He is giving his opinion in support. I think he is notable for the close association and his role in "Friends of Amanda". Ultimately I never see much issue with including some opinions like this we'll probably end up with quite a few but at some point in the future they can be reviewed and the least notable culled. and say they should be ignored as being biased.; no, but their opinions alone cannot be considered reliable. If they advance a view, it is one of support, unless neutral reliable sources agree. This is the core to being a reliable source. That he is newsworthy doesn't matter as we are specifically not a news source :) The rest of your argument is speculation, and not relevant. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't LedRush right...he said it first *sad panda face*LedRush (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

My view (with myself being connected to a Superior Court Judge personally) (Not this one) are that it really takes a serious and strong issue for them to stand up for or even against any situation like this. Judges, are not ones to question the work or orders of others, unless they have been thoroughly convinced of the issue at hand. This is something to seriously take note of.I would like to see this and other means of support brought into the article as well. I also would like to see more elements for Raffaele, Rudy, and Dear Meredith into this brought into this article. The main focus from my view, is the focus directly to Amanda only. --Truth Mom (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

On a related note, it's interesting that Rudy Guede has no support at all. Even his foster family disowned him. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is that "interesting" ? That seems like a subtle dig more than a constructive addition to the conversation. Tarc (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

A note on methodology: I think it is not up to Wikipedia to determine whether Judge Heavey's dinner remarks are notable, nor whether he is a biased/unbiased observer of the case, nor whether his opinions are true or false. I think what we have to look at is whether or not his remarks are notable in the sense of covered by reliable sources. So far, we have only one major newspaper reporting on his remarks. Therefore, in my view, there is not yet sufficient reason to include them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Text for Addition to Support for Knox Section

In the summer of 2008, a group of individuals who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[7] This group believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[8] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, has stated that he believes Knox is "100 percent innocent". At an April 1 2011 dinner Heavey criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[9]

This is a very rough sketch, and I welcome comments to both content and grammar.LedRush (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, because by your first source (which I found a few hours ago, wondering why no-one had brought that one up), "group of individuals" seems misleading, there appears to be non-arms-length connections here. And again, if you want to mention that one quoted is a judge, it seems to me you're duty-bound to note the judge was censured in a case revolving around the same matter. How can you say someone is a judge without mentioning that their judgement was found lacking in the very area in which you are quoting their comments? If it's just a person commenting, fine. If you want to say they are a judge, surely you also have to note the findings of the Judicial Commission on a directly-related matter. What am I missing here? Franamax (talk) 22:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what you're saying "no" to. I also don't know what you mean about there appearing to be non-arms-length connections. Also, the admonishment he received doesn't seem to relate to any of his qualifications as a judge, nor does it affect his statements. However, the consensus is to insist on this information, it doesn't seem to harm the actual statements much, other than bogging down a simple statement with an extra, superfluous statement.LedRush (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see no problem with mentioning the censure, so long as it is qualified correctly that the reason he was censured was for using court stationary to comment on a pending criminal matter in an attempt to influence the proceeding. The exact text of the charges is "Respondent is charged with violating Canons 1, 2(A)and 2(B) of the Code of Judicial Conduct by writing letters on official court stationary to Nicola Mancino, Judge Claudia Matteini, and Giuliano Mignini (members of the Italian judicial system) on behalf of criminal defendant Amanda Knox; utilizing court staff to type those letters; and speaking publicly on several occasions about that same pending criminal case in an attempt to influence the proceeding." Heavy also self reported the conduct to the CJC, which I think is worth mentioning, but maybe not crucial (although all this can easily fit in one sentence, so I don't see it being a big deal). (GeniusApprentice (talk) 23:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC))

Agree with Franamax. Also, we wouldn't say "summer of 2008", as we don't use seasons to denote time. We could say "mid-2008" instead. --John (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

(e/c with below, haven't read that yet) Sorry LedRush that I may have to temporarily book off, but to address your query of what "No" meant, I agree it's a little ambiguous. So specifically, my initial objections were: "group of indidivuals" seems to obscure the fact that there were friends and acquaintances of the family who banded together; and I question using the last sentence, where you quote someone saying something during dinner. I say lots of stuff at the dinner table. Reviewing it all (which is what I have done since my last post 'til now when I must stop), I would rather switch around to say that I can't really agree with any of your proposed wording. At this point, with all due respect, I'm thinking that ErrantX's wording way up there would be a better starting point for discussion. Franamax (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

My language was only one step removed from Errant's, and we were talking about the same speech at the same rotary club dinner (not some random dinner). Anyway, hopefully my version below addresses these concerns in a way amenable to you.LedRush (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

How about this: I've added the info about the admonishment, and combined two sentences to make this section not become unwieldy...I deleted where and wen Heavey made the remarks, and also deleted that he thought she was innocent. I also deleted that he is a family friend (merely because we already say that Friends of Amanda contains family friends and because there were too many commas in the sentence) and added the admonishment info.

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[10][11] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[12] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[13] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, an organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign who was officially admonished for using court stationary to write letters in support of Knox, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[14]LedRush (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This misses out the relationship between Heavey and Knox, which I think is the most important part. --FormerIP (talk) 00:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I explained the reasoning above. Would you like to respond to that or suggest how we overcome this need to introduce all this extra information seamlessly?LedRush (talk) 00:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The point is really that the person quoted is a friend of the family and not merely a "Washington Superior Court Judge" who got interested in the campaign for some unknown reason. I'll have a go at an alternative version. --FormerIP (talk) 00:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's one of the reasons I included the fact that the Friends organization includes friends of the family (which should be obvious, but...). LedRush (talk) 01:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it should be obvious and we don't really need that detail in the first sentence IMO. It could easily be elided to: "In mid-2008, an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda was formed in Seattle". What needs to be clear is that the person quoted is a close friend of the Knox family. All that's needed is to add "and close friend of the Knox family" to the text. I don't think this would be repetitive but, in any event, the alternative is worse because it is misleading. --FormerIP (talk) 01:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

OK. I disagree that my language is misleading (in fact, it is quite leading) but in the spirit of compromise let's include the language. I know in the sources I found said that Heavey's daughters were friends with Knox, but I don't recall them saying that Heavey himself was a friend of the family. Could you provide a source, and then we'll just use the description that that source uses?LedRush (talk) 03:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

"vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case"; do we have this is quote form? Or a quote that says how they view the case? That way it is more clearly attributed to them (i.e. not in our voice) --Errant ^(chat!) 08:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that comes across as in our voice (the proposal says "This group...believes that". Anyhow, this is the source for that [15].

Here's a source for "family friend": [16]. --FormerIP (talk) 13:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This is the form that this attempted paragraph is now taking

"[Insert name], a person with [list biases and connections here] has voiced support for [insert defendant name]."

a local weekly circular quotes someone's support of a participant in the case, someone so connected to one side that we have to devote as much text to qualifying his opinion as we do to the opinion itself. I strongly urge the reconsideration (by neutral editors) of adding this passage at all. Tarc (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems astonishing to me that a neutral editor could wish to exclude an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group from a section of the article dedicated to support for Knox. If we want, we could take out Heavey and put in their official legal counsel, which would decrease the amount of qualification which is done, but the group and it's views are notable.LedRush (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I see little to be astonished about when the quote in question originates in a suburban weekly flyer and is reprinted in a web newspaper. Tarc (talk) 14:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you would be astonished if you actually addressed my point (and didn't misrepresent it): an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group from a section of the article dedicated to support for Knox is necessary and appropriate. The group is widely covered in the mainstream media (including Time (see below), newsweek, the telegraph, the guardian (see below) and on and on), it was only one Heavey quote which was from a regional newspaper. We could make essentially the same quote from Bremner from this Time piece [17].LedRush (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

And that gets back to what I noted yesterday, you're are conflating two issues and quotes into one. We have the "Friends of Amanda" noted by sources such as The Telegraph. Then we have Judge Heavey and his pot-luck breakfast speech. The notability of the former does not confer notability on the latter, even if the judge is a member of said group. Tarc (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

If that is your view, I suggest making a contructive suggestion regarding the proposed text, rather than merely obstructing any insertion of any kind. It seems that your newly found position is that you're ok with the first two sentences, but not ok with the third. Is that right?LedRush (talk) 15:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The newest version:

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[18][19] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[20] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[21] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a Knox family friend and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign who was officially admonished for using court stationary to write letters in support of Knox[22], has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[23][24]

The British documentary “The Trials of Amanda Knox” which was broadcast in the US in March, 2010 devotes considerable time to Judge Heavey’s comments on the case. That documentary is a reliable secondary source and is probably the best coverage of the case out there. It is quite neutral. Judge Heavy got into some minor trouble with the State Judicial commission for speaking out in Ms. Knox’s behalf. Important documents that he wrote to the Italian judiciary are here.

http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/Case%20Material/2010/5975%20Heavey%20SOC%20Answer.pdf

In those letters he talks about the HIV incident which is not part of the present Wikipedia article and needs to be. The TLC documentary is available on Youtube and should be viewed by all those who seek to study this case. It is very well done. This court document also gives direct source and wording, to the relationship at discussion, and how it became of his involvement.--Truth Mom (talk) 15:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Substituting counsel Bremner for Judge Heavey, per above discussion.

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[25][26] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[27] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[28] The group's counsel, former prosecutor Anne Bremner, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and the character assissination the media have directed at Knox.[29][30]LedRush (talk) 15:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Photos

I have seen some of what is written in the archives here and also have been looking into public domain laws for Italy and Germany but not to a conclusive answer. So, are the mugshots obtainable in Italy? ...and same question for Germany as it applies to Guede? Also, do any of the participating editors here have any photos (of their own making) that they would be willing to upload?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Are you only looking for headshots of those involved (Amanda, Raffaele, Rudy)? BruceFisher (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am more then happy to assist with this, If you will advise me on what it is you need :)--Truth Mom (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am looking for whatever we can get that would improve the article. :) I was thinking of the suspects first because mugshots are often (but not always) in the public domain so I thought that might be easiest...but I would think we would welcome other types of photos. The most important thing to Wikipedia is that we don't violate copyrights. If someone has their own photos, they can upload them to Commons. If you have other photo suggestions, just ask here to see if people think they are a good idea. Seeking out photos is a good way to improve the article. Italian speakers will be especially valuable here in looking through their government sites. German speakers may find Guede's mugshot (Germany has been very accommodating to Wikipedia). Shots of Mignini, the court entrance, etc.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Photos of the three suspects taken near the time of the murder would improve the article as would a photo of the cottage. There are some general photos of Perugia on Wikimedia, but I didn't see any good ones that looked appropriate for this article. Uploading your own photos is easiest. If the photo was taken by someone else, that person needs to sign a Wikimedia release form and that signed form should be uploaded at the same time as the image. Ask for advice on getting this right before doing the upload. --Footwarrior (talk) 22:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

To date I have never seen any mug shots of Amanda or Raffaele, but I have ran across the one of Rudy. There are quite a few Italian speakers that I am aware of, I will ask. What would they need to do? As for the form, I will see if I can manage to locate that. As for the uploading, I dunno about that :) I am attempting to learn it though :)--Truth Mom (talk) 01:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a rather steep learning curve for uploading images to the commons. Also, my earlier post was wrong about verifying that someone else gave permission. According to [31] that takes place vie email. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok that helps a ton Thank you kindly.So this is an area I can simply even contact various press entities and request that the photos they hold be released for use. I have been in contact previously with a few of them, so this may aid in an already established relationship.

As previously stated, I have never ran across any mugshots, except for the one of Rudy. I am also sure that all of these book writers and blogs, may as well have access to many photos. So will ask,is it only Mug Shots that are of interest?--Truth Mom (talk) 04:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

A proposed addition to the media section

The media section now reads, in part:

A number of sources have argued that the pretrial publicity and tabloid-style coverage tainted the public perception of Knox and may have prejudiced the trial.[120][121] Unlike standard practice in some other countries, the professional judges and lay jurors who decide the verdicts in Italian court cases are not sequestered during the trial and are allowed to read news articles about the case. [3][122] The lawyers filed complaints with a Milan court and with Italy's privacy watchdog.[120]

I don't believe that the current text properly introduces the amount or nature of the press that Knox received immediately after her arrest through the time of the trial. This is important to note both because it speaks to the controversial nature of the case, and because, as is noted elsewhere, Italian jurors are encouraged to read the press before rendering a verdict.

Before the first sentence, I propose to add the following:

Much of the British and Italian media has portrayed Knox as a "manipulative femme fatale", and, according to Paul Harris at the Guardian, has engulfed Knox in a wave of negative press.[32]LedRush (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Just as a comment (not on whether to include this or not) Much of the British and Italian media has portrayed Knox is a close paraphrase of the source, so it needs to be re-written. I've not actually read the media section up to this point, but what you quote looks like it is full of weasel words :S probably the whole thing needs a refresh --Errant ^(chat!) 16:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll take your comments one at a time.

1. I used the language I have because it is close to the original: whenever discussions revolve around the size of a criticism or the amount of coverage, there is deep disagreement about how to include the information. By staying close to the source, any such disagreement should be minimized. I don't think we get into a copyright/plagarism issue because the language is broad and common and there is really no other plain way to say this other than by doing things like inverting the subject and verb, or changing the verb from active to passive. Of course, I am willing to entertain improvements.

2. I assume your comment regarding weasel words only relates to the first quoted sentence. If I remember the discussion correctly (and I could be totally wrong), this was a compromise position on saying that a "number" of sources. Certain editors (I'll let you guess) thought that it should read "many", while others "some". We used only two citations, but found, many, many more (including the one I'm using hear, or just about any article on the formation of "Friends of Amanda"). A "number" gives the sense that it is more than a handful, but doesn't give the sense that it is either overwhelming ("many") or deminimus ("some"). Of course, if you have a better suggestion that doesn't run afowl of either of those concerns, I'd think everyone would be open to it.LedRush (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Confusion regarding RS's

I am a bit confused on this. I would appreciate any and all clarification in regards to this issue. It has been declared within this article perimeter, that the Daily Mail is in fact a RS. I am curious how it becomes a RS, when in fact Dear Meredith's own father John Kercher, writes for this paper. As seen in the following link below. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?authornamef=John%20Kercher It also is sourced that Mr. Kercher, in fact was notified by his close friends of this media about, Meredith's being the victim of this murder.

Would this in fact not make this RS a bias source to use? This is in fact the Victim , Dear Meredith's, father shown very close and involved in this source. I do not understand the validity of this in comparison to using the sources of others involved. The claims to my understanding for lack of their validity is they are considered Bias, as they are close to the case. Would this not be of mutual, conflict? ( Please note this is for personal clarification) Thank you kindly --Truth Mom (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

He appears to be a freelancer who occasionally writes for them, that doesn't necessairly undermine it as a RS. Being reliable consists of three factors; the publisher, the author and the content. The Daily Mail (publisher) is reasonably reliable by virtue of having editorial control, although it has a tendency to be tabloid which means we usually advise caution. The articles (content) can range from reliable to venal, so that is a judgement made on a case by case basis. And, of course, the author is also dealt with in this way. The fact the John Kercher has written four times for the mail in the past does not make it an unreliable source --Errant ^(chat!) 16:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Mail is in general not a great source, so best to use others if available :) --Errant ^(chat!) 16:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I very strongly agree that the Mail is in general not a great source, and would go even further: it should almost never be used for anything serious at all, particularly for anything that would be considered controversial, or anything that can be found in quality media or books from reputable publishers. There are rare cases in which I think the Mail may pass WP:RS but it would always need to be carefully justified. Do we have a particular example under consideration today?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The mail is used as a sole-source for the following information: "She[Kercher] had two older brothers and an older sister," "Towards the end of November, the prosecution and defence began summing up their cases," and to source that Kercher's father wrote something in the Mail. I don't see any of this as problematic. As a side note, I think it would help our discussions if you stopped using "Dear Meredith," and instead used "the victim" or "Kercher." Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 17:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I didn't really see any problems with any of the information that used the Daily Mail as a source, though I didn't conduct an exhaustive search. However, I have no earthly idea how not calling her "Dear Meredith" could help our discussions in any way. Is there a hidden insult in that term or something?LedRush (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not encyclopedic. Passions are already high enough. Hipocrite (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Again, this is the problem this article has with single-purpose accounts; they are too wrapped up in the emotions of the case to really contribute objectively. Note the comment in an earlier section where "CodyJoeBibby" mocks one of the other criminals for being disowned by his family. I find nothing of value in comments such as that. Tarc (talk) 18:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)