Talk:Little Green Footballs

Center Right?

Who changed LGF to center right? I thought it was generally agreed that LGF isn't (at least for some time) taken an overall conservative stance? Quantitatively, if you look through the recent posts you'll find far more explicit attacks on the 'right wing' rather than the 'left'. CJ even admits to LGF changing through a post from a sympathetic Victor Davis Hanson. Even though he admits only to a 'change of emphasis' and not sides this only strengthens the argument that the blog has grown more liberal. Its clear that LGF is not a conservative blog as of now. Even LGF itself would not accept that definition. Jarwulf (talk) 19:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you look at the edit history, and the discussion in the "Conservative/Independent" section here on the discussion page, for an answer to your question. For the record, I personally favor changing it back to "non-aligned" or "independent." Mark Shaw (talk) 19:22, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

If that's true, Mark Shaw, why do you keep reverting the page?BuboTitan (talk) 08:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Against the majority of opinions on the talk page, Madcoverboy and Mark Shaw keep reverting the page to the affiliation "Center-Right". We have tried "independent", "none", "Center-left", and many other forms, but none of them are good enough. Are we stuck with "Center-Right" like a millstone around the page's neck for eternity? Johnson has described himself as "Center-left". So why would his site be any different? But given the recent realignment, I can live with something in-between. I simply put "None" and added a reference in the first paragraph. Before reverting this page again, please provide any evidence, post-2007, that supports a "center-right" description for the site, otherwise I will request outside moderation. And another thing - I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but I'll just point this out: Many of Charles Johnson's fans cling to the belief that he hasn't changed, but that all other right-wing sites have changed instead. But the purpose of a a wiki page is not a fan-boy site.BuboTitan (talk) 08:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Just as a point of order: I am in the "non-aligned" camp, not the "center-right" camp. "None" works fine for me, at least as a temporary placeholder. Mark Shaw (talk) 13:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you have said so several times, but in your actual edit history you kept reverting the page back to "center-right".BuboTitan (talk) 14:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

With the exception of one revert of an edit that had removed the political affiliation altogether, you are incorrect. But, whatever - as I said, "none" works fine for me at the moment. Mark Shaw (talk) 15:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

A site which spends the vast majority of its time on antiright wing and/or sympathetic Obama articles certainly does not fit into the category of a nonaligned blog. The left wing label fits them pretty well the only real 'difference' is that in the past it focused a little more on islamic terrorism. But if we must not put down facts unless the subject outright announces it on the front page I guess none is the best we can do. Jarwulf (talk) 03:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Conservative/Independent

I know there's been some people who've advocated switching the blog's affiliation from Conservative to Independent.

I wasn't one of those, but this recent post I felt was worthy of being brought up. In the post, Johnson posts a graph demonstrating a "surge of self-identified independents" and then labels himself as one such.

Is this an adequate source for changing the blog's political affiliation? I'm undecided and bringing it up here for discussion. McJeff (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you McJeff, LGF is not a Conservative blog. Independent is a good descriptor, although I might have said the blog was 'Libertarian'. Not sure. Still, definitely not a Conservative blog. 58.110.85.232 (talk) 07:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Johnson identifies as an independent, but Little Green Footballs remains generally conservative. The only two areas where it seems to pull away from some other prominent blogs are those of xenophobia (and, really, that's more of a feature of European rightism than it is American), and the role of religion in schools and in making policy. Mark Shaw (talk) 12:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Comment - it has always seemed to me like Charles Johnson needs a "designated antagonist". I've been reading LGF long enough to remember when he would go through bouts of obsessively posting DKos rantings on LGF, and I think I remember him doing it to Firedoglake as well. His current antagonists are the far right. Now, when he criticizes them, of course it's going to sound liberal, but on those occasions Johnson posts his own beliefs rather than just criticizing, they haven't really shifted. He has softened his stance on global warming significantly, but that shouldn't be a political issue and doesn't/shouldn't have anything to do with political orientation. McJeff (talk) 18:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It could very well be that some other designation than "conservative" would be more appropriate for the blog itself - something along the lines of "right-libertarian" or the like. I'm not so fundamentally opposed to changing it from "conservative" as I am to changing it to "independent" - which seems less descriptive of the blog's true positions than does "conservative." Mark Shaw (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd be hard-pressed to identify *any* political position advocated by Johnson that could still reasonably be considered "Conservative" or even "libertarian". Granted, he still seems to support American military action abroad, but that is hardly a position exclusive to conservatives, given that the "liberal" Obama administration supports continued intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan. Johnson's previous disdain for anyone affiliated with the 9/11 Truth movement has seemingly evaporated since he began defending former Obama appointee Van Jones. Right-leaning pundits are frequently branded with the "kook" tag, while the label remains conspicuously absent from their left-leaning counterparts.

Conservative blogs have been delinking LGF left and right as Charles Johnson's agenda becomes more obvious. The "Conservative" label is hardly appropriate for LGF and a "libertarian" label is even more laughable since Johnson has shown a tendency to gravitate toward whatever political party exerts the most control over the state rather than develop a consistent libertarian political philosophy. Even the "Independent" label is questionable since: (a) "Independent" more appropriately defines status of party affiliation rather than political philosophy (one can be a far-right or far-left "independent"), and (b) Johnson's political ideology currently trends left-of-center if not outright "liberal", as it did in the months prior to 9/11. I think "liberal hawk" might be the best descriptor of LGF's political ideology. "Conservative" makes no sense at all. Uncle Dick (talk) 08:33, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This is resolved? No one here thinks its a conservative blog. It may have been once, but no longer. Time to change it.BuboTitan (talk) 08:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

(BuboTitan refers to this edit.) Let's have a bit more discussion here first, please. For now I'll propose "center-right." Mark Shaw (talk) 12:34, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, how much more discussion do you need? Is there anyone at all who would say that the blog is "conservative" anymore? Look at the page right now. Recently, Powerlineblog.com even dropped it off it's blogroll, and that site was a partner of LGF since the Bush National Guard memo controversy. JammieWearingFool.blogspot.com was a spinoff of LGF, and it doesn't even link it anymore. A recent overview of these events can be found here.BuboTitan (talk) 00:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you re how the blog currently relates to the rest of the right-wing blogosphere. But this is quite possibly a fluid situation, and I'd rather not make any changes based on a snapshot.

I do agree that "conservative" is not the best description of the blog at the moment. CJ seems to be reacting to his own conflation of the racist/kook element of the Tea Party movement to that movement as a whole, which is (in my opinion) incorrect, unfair, and short-sighted. I'd just like to see one or two more people (at least) weigh in on this here. If that doesn't happen within a day or two I will have no objection to your change (to "independent"). (If that change is indeed made, though, with or without input from others, let's remember that it may be appropriate to change it again sometime in the future.) Mark Shaw (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Changed to "non-aligned" with a softlink to "independent." Let's see how this flies; personally, I think it's pretty descriptive. Mark Shaw (talk) 05:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I've been going there since 9/11 daily. The only place I've seen a shift in his stance is global warming but even that isn't so blatant or outright. He mostly seemed to have a problem with Gore and the alarmism some people were pushing, which I suppose is okay as long as you're not using it to obfuscate the real issues. It's just a matter of what his focus is. I doubt any left-leaning guy from California ever thought that creationism was a pretty cool idea, or that racism was awesome, or that aligning oneself with people you considered European fascists a good thing. When his focus was the war on terror, it seemed right wing. Because you generally associate military action as being a right wing idea. When his attention shifted to creationism, European fascism, some of the nuttier protesters at Tea parties, then he seems "independent." But this is only because you believe no person can have those two ideas together without having an internal conflict. The person who confused his defense of Van Jones for tolerance of 9/11 truthers is a supreme fool. Read his entries on the issue, it shows the exact opposite of your opinion. He's basically still that left-leaning guy with a streak for military action in the war on terror, thanks in large part to his left leaning ideals. If you're all about women's rights, gay rights, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and on down the line, extremist Islam isn't exactly your friend. All his stances and positions can easily and consistently be explained with this.

Then I'm afraid you haven't been reading his blog very much even since 9/11. This isn't simply a shift of emphasis. He has repudiated, publicly trashed, and erased links to other blogs that he used to link to on a regular basis. He's also removed the famous jihad comic image from the header. If he was always so left-leaning, then why didn't he do all this before 2007?BuboTitan (talk) 02:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Er, I've been reading it multiple times a day everyday since 9/11. It is absolutely a shift in emphasis. Do you think he no longer cares about radical Islam or thinks it's bad? He absolutely does. He still shows great disdain towards people who are known truthers. None of his original positions, sans global warming, have changed at all. As to why he didn't do it before, well clearly because he believes there's a danger in alignment with groups he considers European fascists just because of a shared coincidental interest in fighting against radical Islam. The groups he has delinked do not share that point of view, either because they don't think they're fascist or because they don't care. The issue didn't come up until a few years ago so it is stupid to ask why he didn't bring it up on 9/12. His position can be summed up as pretty moderate, mainstream, middle of the road. He hates the radicals and extremists on both sides. That's why he hates the far right fascists, christian fundamentalists, radical islamists, ron paul nuts, and also shows great disdain for radical islam appeasers, truthers, Code pink, Michael Moore, most of the anti-war protesters. I don't understand how him being a bit of a hawk automatically makes him a conservative. Don't you remember the comments on the headscarves and comics? He didn't argue against them because they were muslim. He always took the liberal position of "It's about free speech. It's about freedom of religion. It's about womens' rights." He's a pretty standard left-leaning liberal who saw 9/11 and realized the danger posed by radical Islam to Western liberal ideology. That disdain for christian fundies and anti-science mentality never went away and it never just appeared, it was always there. I really think the original mistake in labeling his affiliation was labeling him a conservative, and I think all the conservatives who thought he was one of them through and through were rather foolish. Conservatives don't have a monopoly on thinking the war on terror should be fought and that sharia law is a bad thing.

1) Yes, CJ still thinks radical Islam is bad. And that is really the only thing that has not changed at the site. But it looks like he doesn't think it's as bad as before, since he doesn't write about it nearly as much, and he even took the anti-jihad cartoon graphic off his header. 2) You beg the question of why the issue [of white supremacism] didn't come up sooner. Do you really think that he just totally shelved that issue, and not think about it until 2007? Is that really easier to accept than that he just changed his views? Also, do you honestly think he hates "left wing extremists" with the same passion anymore? There's still plenty of them around, but strangely, it's been a very long time since he pointed out some extremist piece on the Daily Kos or Democratic Underground, something he used to do on a regular basis. Instead, he spends all his time trashing right-wing extremists. Some deservedly so, but nonetheless, if he cared about the issue pre-2007, you would think he would have mentioned it at the time. 3) Do you think he's even much of a hawk anymore? For a very long time, I haven't seen anything he's written supporting the war on terror or criticizing plans to cut troops or withdraw from the war.BuboTitan (talk) 06:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe his rejection by some of the larger conservative blogs out there (Powerline, Malkin\HotAir, etc.) necessarily precludes him from being conservative. Although the blog does reject creationism and global warming denial, CJ still self-identifies with fundamentally conservative ideas. I suspect many of the detractors have moved farther to the right, which in a relative sense makes him more independent or left, but in an absolute sense, he's still on the right. Oppose re-designation. Madcoverboy (talk) 04:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

If that's the case, then it is strange that virtually ALL other sites the he was originally aligned with have all moved to the far right, while LGF has stayed firm? By Occam's razor, isn't it simpler to conclude the LGF has simply changed? Consider the break with the conservative Pajamas Media, which Charles Johnson co-created. Now he even refuses to link to that! It's more than just being anti-creationist or pro-global warming. He's accused every one of his detractors of racism and white supremacy, sometimes for the flimsiest of reasons (which once again, were all there before 2007, yet somehow it didn't bother him then). Moreover he supported McCain during the election but now has flipped around in support of Obama on virtually everything. Whatever his reasons for all of this, he has radically changed. BuboTitan (talk) 07:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

All of this discussion is rather orthogonal to the question of the blog's basic political alignment. Typically, that alignment can be discerned by an examination of the subject's positions in toto, whether we're talking about a person, a blog, or some other entity, but because of the rapidly-changing nature of LGF I don't think that's really possible here and now. A few days ago I changed it to "non-aligned." I would have no objection to changing it again to something else, but I'd prefer to wait on that until the dust settles a bit. The reason for this is that (in my opinion) the changes are rather drastic and unpredictable, and seem (again, in my opinion) to be driven by obsessions that may be transitory in nature - the Tea Party phenomenon, for one. (Yesterday, for example, Johnson posted a clear insinuation that Tea Party activism was responsible for the apparent murder of a census worker.) So, let's watch and wait. Mark Shaw (talk) 12:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe there are enough reliable, third-party sources classifying LGF as having right or center-right to retain the same classification ("his politically conservative blog" WaPo, "the conservative blog Little Green Footballs" [1], The Week, raw story, etc.) in addition to the cites in the article itself about CJ's self-espoused center-right views. Some of the arguments here clearly violate WP:NOR and WP:SYN as they are based on editor's perceptions and judgments rather that verifiable and reliable sources. I'm not going to attempt to parse the veracity of the accusations being flung around about regarding CJ's shift to liberalism or other blogs' affiliation with racists, but claims such as "He's accused every one of his detractors of racism and white supremacy, sometimes for the flimsiest of reasons" and "now has flipped around in support of Obama on virtually everything" seem to be gross and completely unverifiable overgeneralizations. I will wade into the debate only so far to say that conservatism, like any ideology is not a monolithic set of beliefs, thus being "pro-evolution" and "pro-global warming" or being delinked by popular bloggers does not disqualify you from choosing to label yourself conservative. Madcoverboy (talk) 14:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

That he is very supportive of Obama can be simply seen by reading his site. It's certainly not "unverifiable". And all your references don't really support it being a "right-wing blog". Two of them were written before the changes at the site, one of them is talking about those changes, and another one simply doesn't call it a conservative site.BuboTitan (talk) 06:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said here, but personally I still prefer the "non-aligned" designation for now. I'm not going to go change it back without corroborative discussion, though; I don't think it's that important an issue to get exercised about. I'd note that third-party assessments of the blog's alignment should be taken with a grain of salt, given the fluid nature of things (someone's opinion about it even just last week may be obsolete) and the phenomenon of overreaction (e.g. another blog's having suddenly moved LGF in their blogroll from a "right-wing" source to a "left-wing" one).

It's also interesting to note, just as an aside (as it's not something we can or should take into account) that CJ has indicated in a comment at LGF that "non-aligned" may be appropriate. Mark Shaw (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll certainly defer to whatever is the most recent and reliable information regarding the author's self-classification. I only want to be sure that individual editors' judgments are not the sole basis on which we make assertions or distinctions. Madcoverboy (talk) 18:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Little Green Footballs was never a conservative site, as Charles Johnson has said from its beginning. Virtually the only "conservative" part of its composition was its focus on Islamic terrorism (which shouldn't have been a partisan issue but was for eight years). The seeming shift in tone is due to the Right coming out of power and the other blogs circling around even their looniest members to protect them from the Left, as the Left did with their looniest members when they weren't in power. LFG is certainly non-partisan, though it was ever thus and folks were too wrapped up in their own partisanship to notice. GreatGatsby (talk) 00:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

AB I

I have reverted this edit. Since LGF is a political blog, some description of its political alignment is needed. The editor whom I've reverted has suggested "in flux;" I suggest (again) that we go back to "non-aligned." Comment? Mark Shaw (talk) 04:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

There are a whole lot of sources saying it's conservative (even in the lead) and not many (if any) saying otherwise. I'm not opposed to having the alignment updated, but the rest of the article needs to reflect the same. Madcoverboy (talk) 14:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

For the last two years Johnson has been strongly criticizing republican agendas including intelligent design, religion in schools, Obama’s birth certificate story, irrational objection to democratic policies, and association with racist parties in Europe and elsewhere. He has been a strong advocate of science and rational-open debate. His ideas seem to be closer to those of Hillary Clinton than to Bobby Jindal, I just can’t see how you can label him a conservative at this point of time. He is an independent. --Ynahmias (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not your judgment to make. You can't simply state that he's independent in the absence of any sources stating the same and especially in the face of a cornucopia of sources, including himself in the lead, stating he favors the right. If you want to make the claim for his independence, bring on some citations from verifiable sources to update or refute those already in the article clearly stating he is conservative, not independent. Just because he's no longer the darling of the right nor completely lock-step with every Republican party plank doesn't preclude him from having and espousing conservative views. Madcoverboy (talk) 05:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Since you are demanding evidence, how about some evidence that he ever said he was right-wing? In any case, North Korea calls itself "democratic", that doesn't make it so. His blog today speaks loud and clear about his views: right now on his front page he's got separate posts attacking George Will (one of the most moderate of conservatives incidentally), Karl Rove, Republicans in general, conservative religious views, creationists, climate-change deniers (ironic, because Johnson used to be a denier himself), Michelle Bachmann, right-wing blogs, Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin again. He also shows support for Michelle Obama. I'm not sure in what la-la land how all that could be characterized as the slightest bit "conservative" or right-wing. Frankly, it's a left-wing site. But due to such a radical change of focus and the fact that he might swing back someday, I'm willing to simply call it "center" or "independent" for now. BuboTitan (talk) 00:21, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"how about some evidence that he ever said he was right-wing?" I believe it says exactly that with a citation directly in the lead. Madcoverboy (talk) 04:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you serious? If you mean this citation: "But I do think what I'm advocating, and what I believe in, is the right side", then you are way off. The "right" in this sense is right vs. wrong, not political right vs. left! And even if it were, the quote is from 2006, before the site changed character.BuboTitan (talk) 06:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the issue of whether or not one can classify LGF has a conservative blog rests on 2 questions: 1) are the political views of the author (as a whole) distinguishable from the content and political alignment of the blog; and 2) if the political alignment of the blog matches that of the author, have the views of the author changed over the lifetime of the blog. On a large number of issues, from abortion to gay marriage, Charles Johnson has been consistently left-of-center, as he himself has said. Johnson admits to being basically a 9/11 conservative, i.e. a liberal mugged by reality when the Twin Towers fell. Thus, post-9/11, the only viewpoint that really serious got airtime on his blog was his one conservative view vis a vis the War on Terror and what some have dubbed his "far-right" view of Islam (i.e. that it is by its very nature a violent religion.) So, while the author's political views might have been roundly left-of-center (mostly on domestic issues), the content of the blog was still quite conservative post-9/11. Further, Johnson routinely mocked Islam's moniker as the "Religion of Peace", often referring to Islam facetiously as the "RoP" or putting a trademark symbol after the words "Religion of Peace". On more than one occasion he referred to Europe as "Eurabia" and explicitly questioned the compatibility of Islam with liberal Western civilization, as well as heaped praise on bloggers such as Robert Spencer of 'Jihad Watch', Pamela Geller of 'Atlas Shrugs', and the anonymous author of the European 'Gates of Vienna'. He also routinely mocked politically unrelated Islamic practices, such as the self-flagellation performed by some Shi'ites during Zanjeer Zani. His views on Islam frequently lead to him being called everything from an 'Islamophobe' to a fascist. Other views, such as those on anthropogenic climate change, were quite skeptical as early as 2002.

Fast forward to 2009. The blog as it stands today looks nothing like it did in, say, 2002, 2003, or even as late as 2007. If one were to compare archives from those dates with more recent ones, he might be convinced that the blog was under new management. Today, Johnson's many currently liberal views now comprise the majority of the content of the blog. A large portion of his posts on the blog are dedicated to attacking and exposing those same former allies (mentioned above) as racists and anti-Islamic fascists; all the while Johnson's past vitriol toward Islam as a whole seems to have completely disappeared to the point that he is occasionally even quoted by the same left-wing media and Islamic organizations that used to brand even him an right-wing Islamophobe. General diatribes against Islam or mockery of the "Religion of Peace" label are nonexistent in LGF's current form, nor are any acknowledgements of any change of views. And as Johnson's decidedly left-of-center views have taken center stage, the political alignment of the blog has clearly veered to the left. He frequently points to 'intelligent design' (aka creationism) and its proponents as a grave threat to the United States, frequently labels pro-life activists as anti-choice (as if their primary motivation is not the protection of what they view as human life, but some sort of fascist desire to control women). Further, Johnson seems to have entirely replaced his previously frequent mockeries of left-wing "moonbats" and "useful idiots" with attacks on and dire warnings about 'right-wing fanatics' (e.g. protestors at the Tea Party protests), Ron Paul supporters (whom he frequently alludes to as truthers), anti-abortion activists, anthropogenic climate change skeptics, and other well known conservatives such as Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, Pat Buchanan, and others. LGF now often features content from left-wing organizations such as Media Matters, as well as Reuters (formerly "al-Reuters") and the Associated Press, organizations Johnson used to frequently attack. Other views, such as those on the birther movement have also seen quick turnarounds. Johnson was one of a few early well known bloggers who questioned whether or not Barack Obama was a US citizen. Yet after much evidence seemed to cast doubt on it, Johnson began mocking those conspiracy theorists who had picked it up and ran with it. (He even went so far as to go back and edit his original post some time later, albeit without the update flag and timestamp usually applied to edited posts.) Lastly, take a look at this mocking quote Johnson used for an open thread recently: "A conservative is someone who believes in reform. But not now." — Mort Sahl

For all the above reasons, I feel it is no longer appropriate to label LGF a "conservative" blog in general. If you want to describe it as left-of-center on most issues but conservative on foreign policy and staunchly pro-Israel, I think that would be more accurate. —divus 12:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, a convincing argument with which I would agree, but in the absence of independent and reliable sources stating the same and updating the rest of the article to reflect this new dimension, one simply cannot air-drop in a label that contra-indicates the entire body of current sources and content. Madcoverboy (talk) 13:53, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I fully agree with you regarding Wikipedia policy. I guess my point is that this article as it stands is very out of date. —divus 14:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The article is out of date and doesn't even attempt to explain the obvious change in ideological direction from its editors. Firstly, compare today's LGF commentariat to that from one or two years ago. Secondly, regarding Charles's centre right "bona-fides"...consider his treatment of the Tea Party movement. Certainly, the level-headed conservative would state that it is useful to have a vigilant eye working to expose the wacky and damaging fringe elements of such a movement - a task that LGF has energetically taken on board - yet it has not once acknowledged that the overarching goal of the main body of the Tea Party folks is to reduce government spending; a fundamentally "centre right" ambition. LGF has been a consistently derisive critic of the Tea Party movement in its entirety (by tarring it with the brush of the fringe hangers-on), which I would argue puts it at odds with the entire "centre right" movement. I think the most accurate description of the political affiliation of the site would be "non-aligned".Langfangvegas (talk) 19:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm seeing two votes for "non-aligned" now, I think. Anyone else? Mark Shaw (talk) 19:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I have read several weeks of the most recent posts on the blog and can only come to the conclusion that LGF's current main orientation is not center right or non-aligned.

It's mainly anti conservative/Republican/religious. It is also pro man made global warming which is more of a leftist theme than a right wing theme. Charles Johnson seems to have become obsessed with bashing everything that he considers right wing. That would make his blog definitely a leftist/Liberal blog.

Johnson has claimed that global warming should not be a politicized topic of discussion.

Johnson has also claimed that he was never a right-winger.

Although his focus is mainly on criticizing the far right these days, Charles Johnson still occasionally writes posts very critical of Obama, or critical of pandering to Islamic extremists, and he has maintained his pro-Israel stance.

On the other hand, Johnson has done away with the anti-terrorism cartoon, the link to the Orianna Fallaci memorial site, and turned strongly against Sarah Palin. Specifically in regards to Palin, he now claims he never liked her and couldn't stand her from the Katie Couric interview on. This even though LGF was one of the blogs pointing out/falsely claiming (your opinion may differ on which it is) that she trounced Biden in the VP debate. He also links to Huffington Post semi-regularly, when he used to decry it as one of the "foulest" (his word) places on the internet.

As a long time Lizardoid, this is my opinion. Johnson always needs a designated antagonist. Back during the wars at Digg, just about every other post was criticizing some Daily KOS article. He first criticized the right when the extreme right started in with the anti-Democrat rhetoric that he so intensely criticized when the Democrats were doing it to the Republicans. The major shift seemed to come when it was almost unanimous among the right wing blogs that he was getting all worked up about nothing and was returning to his liberal roots. See the section in the article about his falling out with Spencer, Fjordman, etc. He's also always sort of operated on an "anyone who doesn't hate my enemies as much as I do is my enemy" policy, which is why so many users get banned and he's so quick to shrilly denounce all sorts of right wingers.

Perhaps the best way to solve the issue of the blogs' political orientation is to say "Center-Right*" and then write a section about the slide from criticizing the left wing to criticizing the right wing. The above commentary on the de-linking of the Fallaci memorial could be sourced without violating WP:NOR if someone who's good at internet archive browsing could pull up some old versions of the LGF front page. 20:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.150.95 (talk)

I would agree that LGF has changed a huge amount over the last year. The article does need to be re-written, but I don't think we should get too hung up on what political affiliation Charles Johnson has. Whichever one we pick, he'll probably prove us wrong in a few months' time. Epa101 (talk) 21:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow. What a crafty character CJ is! Well, we could give him scope to prove us wrong ad-nauseum, or we could simply remove the "political affiliation" designation altogether. I don't understand why maintaining this part of the entry is such a holy cow. Langfangvegas (talk) 17:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Madcoverboy thinks Charles Johnson saying he is right wing is an acceptable source for designation as right wing but that Johnson's posts attacking the right do not count as an acceptable source for designation as left wing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.123.101 (talk) 23:08, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Not only that, but Charles never said he was right wing anyway. Just that his was the right side (ie correct side).BuboTitan (talk) 01:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Political Alignment; the ongoing story

As of today, CJ has turned his sights on Rush Limbaugh in support of the attacks upon him via specious "racist" quotations. I'm not going to do it myself, but I will no longer object if some other editor changes the description of the political alignment of the blog to some variety of "left-wing." (And I will object if anyone changes it back to "right-wing.") Mark Shaw (talk) 18:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Not only that, but he once called Rush Limbaugh an "honorary Lizardoid"; it's almost as if we have an impersonator taking over the site. He also has a recent series of posts (like this one), where he has been constantly mocking Republicans for the less than impressive new GOP.com site. He's not even claiming they are doing anything morally wrong; he's just ridiculing them for their web site design, period. This is illustrative; this doesn't look very "centrist" to me; usually you would only see this type of ridicule on very partisan web sites. I vote for left-wing.BuboTitan (talk) 01:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

This is all original research. Point me to a single independent, reliable source that states that LGF is left-wing, liberal, etc. I strenuously object to changing alignment based on individual editors' beliefs, observations, and conclusions. Madcoverboy (talk) 04:00, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I might waggishly point to the blog itself, but the point (where I'm specifically concerned) is simply to announce a shift in my own intentions as an editor. CJ's apparent wholesale acceptance of these thoroughly-debunked Limbaugh "quotes" is the last straw for me. I may or may not continue to watch this article, but I will from now on be somewhat more circumspect in reversing some edits - that's all. Mark Shaw (talk) 04:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In point of fact, this is NOT original research. I think you misunderstand the concept. Look here. The problem with original research is that it can't be checked by anyone else. If you cite your sources so that others can check them, then that falls under acceptable policy. The easiest thing is too look at the LGF site right now. Or on this talk page, people have presented an abundance of links for reference.BuboTitan (talk) 07:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm not sure which term is least well understood around here: "secondary sourcing" or "left wing". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:V is pretty clear on this: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." Madcoverboy (talk) 19:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Quite. And as there's a recent reliable source which covers the subject, we should use the description given there. Which I've now done. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 03:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Which reliable source currently describes LGF as "right-wing," please? Mark Shaw (talk) 05:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, in the very link that Chris Cunningham gives, Johnson is quoted as saying: "I don’t consider myself right-wing". Reverted.BuboTitan (talk) 10:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this source and taking from it that Johnson says that he isn't right-wing ignores the entire point of the article; saying "oh but which source now considers him to be right-wing" when a) no current source contradicts that and b) there are plenty of older sources which do is a perfect example of arguing that it's the other parts of the moon that are made of green cheese. It's disappointing that people are edit warring over this. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's you who is ignoring the point of that article. Sure, Little Green Footballs universally used to be considered very much a staunch right-wing web site. But no longer - and that's the whole issue. It's very unusual for a website to change it's character so radically, but that can happen when you have one person writing all the articles alone. It's fully Johnson's web site, and the fact that Johnson himself says he is not right-wing, and in another article claims he's an independent, is about the most solid evidence you can find that he is not right-wing. Personally, I believe he's taken the plunge and become a leftist full-bore, but some others here disagree. "Independent" or "None" is a compromise position.BuboTitan (talk) 08:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a personal interpretation of a primary source, which we cannot use as a rationale for changing the article. The previous version was properly referenced to a recent secondary source and should be restore. Unless you have any stronger arguments, we're basically done here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm wondering if anyone can look at this recent article and still maintain, with a straight face, that his website is the slightest bit "right wing".BuboTitan (talk) 04:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

And I can just as easily point to articles such as this, this, and this which likewise exhibit right-of-center thinking. It is not yours or any others judgment to make (especially cherry-picking posts); only those of verifiable and reliable sources. If you want to change it to liberal, get a traditional journalist to cover it. Stop using Wikipedia to play out and legitimize ideological turf battles in the conservative blogosphere. Madcoverboy (talk) 14:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

How are any of those examples "right of center"? Did you even read them beyond the headers? And even if they were, there is a noticable difference here. The example I gave was Johnson mocking the Republican Party. It's not a post about a real issue, but a made-up one to poke fun at Republicans. I just don't see how that would jibe with a "conservative" blog, but if you disagree, why don't you tell me why, instead of making uninformed and wild accusations about my motives here, which are irrelevant in any case (not to mention the fact that you yourself seem to have quite an emotional interest in this subject, to say the least). And get a traditional journalist to cover it? Exactly how would that solve anything? If you read through this discussion thread, we've already given links of articles discussing changes at LGF.BuboTitan (talk) 16:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Problems with lead, etc.

The lead presently is a bit misleading in that it implies that the site became known as "liberal" as early as 2007. Obviously this isn't the case. The site always opposed religious fundamentalism, including creationism, although generally these views were in the context of supporting the Bush administration's war against "Islamofascism." What's really problematic with the present lead is that the site was still completely unhinged far-right wing-nut through the year 2008 (which was just last year, mind you). Charles supported the "birther" accusations that Obama had refused to make public his birth certificate. Days before the 2008 election he went on a Glenn Beck-style rant about Obama's "radical connections." Essentially the site changed on a dime in 2009 after Obama actually became president. There wasn't quite the gradual shift involved that the lead implies. We can put forth theories on why this happened (I'd take a rather cynical view on these matters myself), but presently the lead distorts the reality of the site's transformation. 74.73.105.28 (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

You are right that the changes weren't "full blown" until this year. During the 2008 election, Johnson supported McCain/Palin (although weakly), but was already changing his view on climate change. But it wasn't so much "on a dime" as you think. The best actual start date was probably October 2007, when he decided to ban several right wing blogs from his site, like Gates of Vienna or The Brussels Journal. These were sites that had been closely aligned with his for a long time, and they considered Johnson a friend. Then suddenly, Johnson purged them away in a "blogwar", causing everyone to have to choose sides.BuboTitan (talk) 03:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The lead is beyond misleading. Its POV OR with imaginary quotes, e.g., Johnson supposedly criticizes conservative blogs "in the name of "anti-fascism" and "anti-racism"". Go read the Weigel article - nowhere are these terms used. Were these supposed to be ironic air quotes? I believe some editors here may not understand what attribution, citation and reference actually are. You can't just put quotes marks around whatever you wish someone had said, throw in a footnote and call it a day - either the quotation marks and the footnote actually refer to something, or they don't. Dragula (talk) 07:53, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources

The "Intelligent Design" section in this entry is pure OR. Has any reputable media source made even a passing mention of Johnson's views on creationism? If so, these should be cited instead. Dragula (talk) 08:08, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Read WP:NOTOR. 19:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Why Conservative opinion blogs are not reliable sources RE: Johnson's alleged shift to the left

Per Wikipedia:

"Statements of opinion

Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact. A prime example of this are Op-ed columns that are published in mainstream newspapers. When discussing what is said in such sources, it is important to directly attribute the material to its author, and to do so in the main text of the Wikipedia article so readers know that we are discussing someone's opinion.

There is, however, an important exception to sourcing statements of opinion: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material. "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs (see: WP:BLP#Sources and WP:BLP#Using the subject as a self-published source)."

Dragula (talk) 02:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The above is Wikilawyering. Disregard. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 03:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Either personal opinion blogs are considered to be`reliable sources for facts about living third parties, on par with legitimate mainstream news sources (e.g., newspapers, academic journals, etc) or they aren't.

It strikes me that just because some blogger at "notoriouslyconservative.com" has decided to put it out there that Johnson no longer passes his own personal smell test, this does not (or should not) overrule the many, many dozens of citeable mainstream media sources who in fact do describe Johnson as "conservative," right wing etc.

Wikipedia is intended as`an encylopedia, not a roundup of up-to-the-minute blogger opinion, no?

Dragula (talk) 23:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

It would help if you were more specific over which part of the article and which reference you think violates the policy. But keep in mind that it's not just the content of opinions on these blogs. It's also the simple fact that there have been flame wars between Johnson and other blogs that he was once friendly with. Or the fact that Johnson has "de-linked" so many previous sites off his blog (and visa versa), including Pajamas Media (which he orginally helped create). That alone is strong evidence of a significant shift on at least one side. Anyway, there are also mainstream media sources that are referenced in the article.BuboTitan (talk) 06:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Dragula has been engaged in POV pushing on this article since 2005. He may be right, on occasion, about some blogs not being reliable sources, but it's easy to question his motive since he used to try to get LGFWatch linked from this article. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 13:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

LGF and CJ are as conservative as squares are round. I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding this. Jarwulf (talk) 09:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You are correct, 96.244.150.95, 4 or 5 years ago I did NOT understand what "original research" was or why blogs are not to be considered reliable sources for biographies of living persons. I also tended to be much more "blog-centric" in my approach to these sorts of articles and did not understand why mainstream media sources and academic journals really do trump the anonymous hit-n-run gossip style of most online journals.

For this reason I do STRONGLY encourage you to go back through the discussion archives and peruse the back and forth on this at your leisure. It took me a LONG time to really understand what comprises a quality article, and what does not, for which reason work on this specific article was in fact one of the more educational aspects of my early forays into wiki editing. Perhaps it can help you too. Dragula (talk) 07:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

"Neolibertarian"

Is this even a real word? It is redlinked repeatedly, and I've never heard of it before despite being in to all this politics nonsense. Praetonia (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"Why I parted ways with the Right"

This article today is the first time that Johnson openly talks about his ideological shift, and gives specific reasons (some of it is actually quite ironic, since many of the reasons are things that he himself has done in the past). In any case, I think this helps settle the matter over whether LGF is still a "right wing" web site. The post is important, and I'm considering the best way to add it into the wiki page.BuboTitan (talk) 04:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that adding anything about any individual post is really the right thing to do, but it may make sense in this case.

By the way, I'll probably be recusing myself from editing the entries on LGF and CJ for a while - I have a minor conflict of interest in that I got booted as an LGF commenter last week.

Mark Shaw (talk) 13:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we can now put this whole idiotic debate to bed: "Call me independent, and I won’t be unhappy. I have bones to pick with both sides, and big issues with the extremists on both sides. And if you’re a politician, you need to prove to me that you deserve my support, because it’s not a given just because you’re on “my team.” I've updated the infobox accordingly to reflect the author's desired self-identification. Madcoverboy (talk) 07:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, if you look at the entries on his page right now, every single one of them, without exception, either supports a conventional left-wing POV or criticizes right-wing public figures. He might think he's purely independent (the same way the NYT or Fox News thinks so), but the actual evidence points the other way. Still, "independent" is probably good enough for the time being.BuboTitan (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I've known people who are far more left wing than those who embrace the title but prefer to call themselves Independent/Nonaligned because it sounds a lot cooler and enlightened. Everything CJ is currently (doing) places him firmly in the leftwing camp. If George W. Bush or Pat Robertson decided to call themselves independent but kept all their previous positions would we say they were no longer conservative? If nobody has any qualms I'll change the alignment to Independent/Left. Self Description should count, but not for everything. Jarwulf (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if CJ counts as fully left-wing because he hasn't come out in advocation for anything aside from Global Warming, which despite the politicization of the issue isn't really a political issue at all. However, he focuses almost exclusively on criticizing just about everything right-wing, and he now links to Huffington Post, which he used to decry as one of the "vilest" sites on the internet. He also removed the link to the Orianna Fallaci memorial from the blog. So I think it's safe to say that he's left wing. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

All someone needs to do here is find a mainstream media article that references the "WHy I Parted Ways with the Right" piece and cite that:

For example:

Jewish Telegraph Agency : http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2009/12/02/1009501/pro-israel-blog

The Washington Independent: http://washingtonindependent.com/69205/little-green-footballs-charles-johnson-breaks-with-the-right

The Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/04/AR2009120401506_pf.html

Dragula (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Political affiliation

I just changed the political affiliation in the infobox from 'Left' to 'Right', as LGF is generally described in reliable sources as the latter, at least until recently. The reference provided is actually called 'Civil war raging in right-wing blogosphere', implicitly describing it as a right-wing site. Having read some of the other links on this page though, it seems that Charles Johnson no longer considers himself on the right; but I still don't think he's ever openly described himself as leftwing, or been described as such by reliable sources. So, 'rightwing' or 'independent' is appropriate, but 'leftwing' is not. Perhaps we should just go with 'independent', and leave it at that? Robofish (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

In other words, you made this change without reading any of the robust discussion already on the talk page. You can certainly argue that LGF is "independent", but you can't argue that it's "right-wing", especially when it's single author, Charles Johnson came out and said so directly. Reverted.BuboTitan (talk) 03:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

New NYT ref

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/magazine/24Footballs-t.html

Usual magazine article: long, and stuffed with details and cites you probably can't otherwise get. I encourage y'all to make full use. --Gwern (contribs) 03:34 23 January 2010 (GMT)

"Long," indeed. Could you possibly summarize what your point is? Thanks. Mark Shaw (talk) 04:34, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, for starters, on the first page, the article says he turned forcefully... against nearly every conservative icon you could name. Which could be used as an extra cite in the case of someone once again trying to claim he's still right wing.

What's really interesting about the article, though, is that it quotes some of the aspersions other bloggers have thrown at him. Which then means they could be reliably sourced and added. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Left vs Classic Liberal

In the reference taken from the profile in the NYT article, there is an actual quote.

"His recent expressions of support for abortion rights, of contempt for creationism and the religious right — all these beliefs, he told me, are elements of the “classical liberalism” he has always believed in but previously opted not to write about."

As for the Weigel source, which I replaced, the NYT source is superior in every way. The Weigel interview describes Johnson as "anti-right" and "independent", but the only time I see the word "liberal" mentioned there is in the sentence his comment sections have often been a place for anti-Muslim and anti-liberal rage. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 23:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The NYT article quotes Johnson himself as claiming to be a "Classical Liberal." This is not sufficient. Anyone can claim anything they like in an interview. Find a source other than Johnson credibly identifying him and his blog as X; then the alignment of the blog can be changed to 'X' in the article. Mark Shaw (talk) 23:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Why is that? Quotes from Johnson are entirely adequate. It's his blog, and he would know.

Anyway, we've already cited blog posts from him claiming to be independent as a source for him being an independent, so I feel your argument is lacking. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 00:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Suggest you read the history of the political-alignment discussion here, in its totality. At any rate, "independent" has a somewhat looser definition than does "classical liberal." If CJ and LGF truly represent Classical Liberalism, certainly a reputable and independent source will concur. Mark Shaw (talk) 00:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

NYTimes is a reputable and reliable source; if the information was not accurate it would not have been published there. 96.244.150.95 (talk) 01:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Again: nobody is claiming that the NYT isn't WP:RS.

Consider, as an illustration: if, in an interview published by a reputable source, Scott Roeder were to claim to have performed an act of justifiable homicide when he murdered George Tiller, would you believe it reasonable if some other editor were to change the WP article covering Roeder so as to present that opinion as fact? I rather think not. (N.B. I am not claiming that there is any comparison of degree here - this is a thought experiment and a reductio ad absurdum example.) Mark Shaw (talk) 02:19, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, CJ can call himself and LGF whatever he wants but the fact is LGF is more about bashing various rightwing concepts and figures rather than advancing an 'classical liberal' philosophy. IMO LGF doesn't even count as centerleft since its more dailykos than mainstream democrat but whatever Jarwulf (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

paragraph concerning johnson cleansing his site archive of his own islamophobic hate speech

before i re-add the section, i just wanted to drop a note here. i don't want a pointless revert war. so, before you re-revert, please come down here and offer an explaination.

i got three arguments against inclusion. i'll address them in order.

1) reliable sources - this should be easy to address. the item was picked up by tim blair who is a vetted,professional blogger with a major publication. the link for the cite will be changed to his post. http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/deletion_johnson

2) "recentism" - isn't an apt characterization of the contrib, which takes it's appropriate place at the foot of an existing section. rather than having the effect of upstaging or trivializing the previously included elements of the article, the "memory hole" incident is of equal substance as the other elements, such as the incident in which charles wrote a post about how he didn't like republicans anymore. the bit about him going back through his archives and editing out rightwing hate speech is a chapter which naturally follows the story of charles beginning as a mild-mannered computer programmer, becoming a well-known islamophobic and republican loyalist, and then turning his back on republicans and islamophobics. finally, it is not a "developing" facet of that story. it's a bell which has rung.

3) finally, i don't know what to make of the argument that the "memory hole" incident is "objectively, a tempest in a teapot". i mean, perhaps; but what's the "teapot" in that analogy? answer: littlegreenfootballs.com.. and seeing as how this is the article about littlegreenfootballs.com, anything which could be classified as a "tempest" is material which should be covered.

even forsaking all of that, the contrib is yet of compelling interest as it deals with a blogger known for shattering the opacity of the legacy media employing a memory hole for his own publication.

simply including the incident only gives it it's due merit. grasping at tendentious claims to justify auto-reverting it, bringing in other editors to join the anti-inclusion side in a revert war and all of that sort of thing would be blowing it out of proportion. don't you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.255.230.32 (talk) 01:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

No time to address any of these points now (will do so later if warranted), but just a note that it would be helpful if you would obtain an editor account. You have made three attempts at this addition via three different IP addresses so far. It's easier to discuss matters like this with a single personality. Mark Shaw (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

i see. when will you be determining whether it is warranted or not to participate in the talk page discussion relevant to the item you've reverted twice today? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.153.140.164 (talk) 03:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Will you at least please settle on one IP address? It's difficult to take four (so far) different personalities seriously. Thanks. Mark Shaw (talk) 03:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

i didn't detect a response to any of the points i brought up in what you wrote. i'll put the contrib back pending the presentation of a substantive and valid argument for it's removal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.136.254.117 (talk) 05:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

What, after a bit more than two hours? Fine, leave it in and see if you get any consensus from others. You still have WP:RS and WP:Notability issues, at least. Oh, and it would be great if you'd stop IP-hopping. Mark Shaw (talk) 12:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

And an update: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/37174_Ive_Been_Caught_Correcting_a_Mistake htom (talk) 14:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

[outdent] Well, it's certainly a revisionist cleansing. Whether it's appropriate to note here is the question. If it is appropriate, it's probably best to include Johnson's (in my opinion laughable, but that's neither here nor there) claim that he was merely "correcting a mistake" as well. Let's keep WP:NPOV and WP:BLP in mind, please. Mark Shaw (talk) 16:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks for taking a look at this. i've got some things to do, but i'll take a stab at some succinct, neutral wording to include johnson's claim when i return. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.184.129.34 (talk) 18:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

nascent edit war

I'm curious to know if Wikipedia editors plan to go through every blogger's old posts to see what they deleted or altered? If not, why is this section in the article about Little Green Footballs? 76.94.174.23 (talk) 21:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

This page is being vandalized by people who are grinding personal axes, and Wikipedia editors should put a stop to it if you care about your credibility. 76.94.174.23 (talk) 03:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

- I suspect this IP is someone with a personal axe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/76.94.174.23

Revision history of Little Green Footballs reveals that this Wiki entry is being vandalized and populated with biased, and inaccurate information by Wiki user MadKingChucky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sundowners (talk • contribs) 03:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

i am the contributor who added the section regarding the "memory hole" posts. i cannot speak for user:MadKingCharles, but i and other editors would appreciate it if factual, neutrally-worded and sourced contributions did not become collateral damage in whatever conflict you intend to engage in here.

i notice that you are each using fresh user accounts. keep in mind that wikipedia strives to work from consensus, and the talk page is the best place to go before making sweeping changes to an article. also, before things get out of hand, please familiarize yourselves with the "three revert rule". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.248.144.143 (talk) 04:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

76.94.174.23 (talk) is Charles Johnson from LGF. See his comment at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/showc/315/8716065 Guest458 (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"Alteration and Deletion of Posts" section

With this edit, I removed material that was improperly sourced. The citation given fails WP:RS (see also WP:Blogs). Therefore, the retention of the material would have introduced WP:BLP issues. If anyone wants to re-add it, s/he needs to provide verifiable reference(s)/citation(s) that support the text. If one wants to try using the citation that I indicated fails WP:RS, go first to WP:RSN to obtain a second opinion as to whether the cite satisfies WP:RS. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

ah. i see where the issue lies. you believe that "the citation fails WP:RS (see also WP:Blogs)," but it does not. the source, as discussed above in the previous talk item, is to a blog published by The Daily Telegraph. As it is stated in WP:Blogs: "Several newspapers host columns that they call blogs. These are acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. In March 2010, the Press Complaints Commission in the UK ruled that journalists' blogs hosted on the websites of newspapers or magazines are subject to the same standards expected of comment pieces in that organization's print editions." the existing policy appears to be clear on this, but if you would prefer, perhaps we can get a second opinion from the noticeboard.

also, i have to note that this is not the biographical article about charles johnson, but the article about the website, little green footballs. 76.248.144.143 (talk) 06:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The article iteself is not about a living person but the information that is the focus of the edit war going on is about a living person so WP:BLP applies. ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:09, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

actually, it's about the editorial conduct of the website. if it were scurrilous rumors about his personal life, i would see your point. in any case, the question of whether the matter pushes up against BLP is entirely dependent on whether the RS objection is valid. this has not been demonstrated. 76.248.144.143 (talk) 07:24, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The section that was removed said "Johnson had begun altering some posts and deleting others," this is information about a living person, Johnson. It is not talking about the editorial conduct of a website it is talking about the actions of a living person, so BLP unquestionably applies. The reliability of the source has nothing to do with the whether BLP applies. As far as the source, if Tim Blair is considered an expert then the parts that he writes can be considered reliable, but all the rest of the comments below his can not be used as a reliable source. ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The section that was removed is also not written in anything like passable English. It also states a complete truism: "Johnson's proven and demonstrated quick editing capabilities make any claim by him that someone made a certain post, and that the post is unedited by Johnson, impossible to trust or verify." It is impossible for anyone to 'trust or verify' that nearly any privately-operated website contains unedited material. Transparency is not the norm. The statement also reflects speculation. Obdicut (talk) 10:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

i believe the section being discussed was "Alteration and Deletion of Posts". It is agreed that MadKingChucky's edits were not encyclopedic.Notanipokay (talk) 11:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of material related to revisionist content editing

The article as it stands follows the history of the blog from its beginnings as one concentrating on computer programming, to its eventual reputation as a "rightwing hate site" against Muslims, its involvement in exposing journalistic malpractice in the Killian documents controversy and the Reutters photography scandal, and to its disaggregation from the right and recent position against anti-Muslim bigotry. Recently, it was discovered that the blog owner had deleted entries and edited bigoted language from older posts in order to revise the record of his past statements about Muslims, the left and other issues.

The dispute is over whether this last matter should be included in the article. Notanipokay (talk) 09:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

{{Edit semi-protected}}

The article should be reverted back to the state it was in for a solid month before all of the section-blanking and edit-warring of last night.

for instance, this dif.[[2]]

at least until the matter can be resolved through RfC or moderation. Notanipokay (talk) 09:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done Restored to version 391390438 of the article on October 18. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

thank you.

for the other users involved in this dispute, i have started a noticeboard post in WP:RS in addition to the Rfc.[[3]] I hope we can come to a consensus in a civil manner. Notanipokay (talk) 10:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that at the very least, the claim that the posts were edited without acknowledgement is incorrect. The post that was edited contains a notification that it was edited, as well. . Obdicut (talk) 11:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

the acknowledgement came ex post facto. specifically, it was acknowledged only after the deletions and revisions had been exposed on other blogs, and in reaction to the exposure. [[4]] it was not, in any case, concurrent with his revisions. i'm not sure where charles acknowledged the posts he deleted entirely.Notanipokay (talk) 11:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

That would be because there has been no acknowledgement of the "disappeared" posts, just as there is no public acknowledgement of comments he has re-edited in the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 11:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I OBJECT TO THIS. Stickee, look at Notanipokay. I may be new here and still learning - fuck it took me a bit just to get the reference structure down - but I had no idea what a "noticeboard post" or "rfc" were till this morning. Who is Notanipokay, really?

i moved your comment out from the middle of my comment. no disrespect intended, but you need to calm down a bit. i realize that the popular misconception is that wikipedia is the place where someone can log in with the name "bushequalshitler" and enjoy free reign to deface the george bush article with the allegation that he is like hitler, but it really isn't. Notanipokay (talk) 11:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The content that was added appears to be controversial, so it has been removed for now until consensus is reached on whether it should be included. My revert to an old version does not indicate whether I support or oppose the addition of the text (I actually haven't read the paragraph), it was just so it could be discussed by you people first (See WP:BRD). Thanks, Stickee (talk) 11:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"this essay is not a policy or guideline itself" - In other words, you're out of line. And where's the discussion? NOWHERE. all the little green sockpuppets jumped ship as soon as they got their way from you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 15:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

"BRD will generally fail if:...The page is protected." —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 15:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

After looking it seems to real problem is not "controversy" but a bunch of little green sockpuppets. If I am reading the "3RR" rule correctly, "SpikeTorontoRCP" aka "SpikeToronto" violated that rule. "SpaceJesus5000" I don't know what to make of. "Sundowners" is just something someone created to screw around blanking things, probably the same as "Obdicut."

It must be nice to run your own little echo chamber where you can make your little green sockpuppets go bias your site's wikipedia page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 14:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Blair’s blog fails WP:RS because it says nothing. All it does is provide two links: one to a blog that would never pass WP:RS and another to Little Green Footballs itself. This is not the type of entry that is intended to be allowed by WP:Blogs. Thus, material that is not adequately sourced gives rise to WP:BLP issues and cannot be retained in the article. As to why there is a BLP dimension, re-read GB Fan’s comments above both here and here: they are spot on.

Notanipokay: you have taken this to WP:RSN and so far you have been given the same response:

Blair is simply linking (without comment) to another blogger in this case, and because it is a third-party blog discussing a living person (and his actions), which is definitely not allowed under BLP. If another (non-blog) source picks up the story (unlikely, but possible), or if Blair expands his post to actually discuss the issue, it might pass the threshold, but not as currently presented.

Also, inclusion of this material without a verifiable reference/citation, which the current one is not, not only violates WP:BLP, but it also is skating on the thin ice of POV pushing. Finally, you do not win the day by wikilawyering and makeing WP:3RR accusations toward me when they do not apply.

Stickee: With the greatest of respect for a fellow recent changes patroller, and the thankless task we perform, you should not have reverted to the version that includes this material without having carefully read the discussion above. Because there is the very distinct possibility of WP:BLP issues here, you should have ensured that the edit-protected version was the one without that material. Instead, you have enshrined the sort of text that WP:BLP is intended to prevent: libelous material. You should remove this material until the RfC determines otherwise. Moreover, such actions are more appropriately taken by Administrators. You need to revert to version 394122234.

Thanks! — SpikeToronto 17:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

it's unfortunate that the talk page has taken and angry, uncivil tone. I haven't the time to resume the discussion of the WP:RS matter further than to say that i've acted in good faith and with due diligence in resolving the matter toward a consensus. i will come back to participate in this discussion as soon as i am able. though it was neither my preference nor my doing[[5]], we have a week of semi-protection to let things cool off and deal with this in a civil manner.

i did want to correct one statement. i did not make any 3RR accusation against you, but against the user Sundowners, who was in fact repeatedly blanking the section without going to talk and was one diff away from 3RR. [[6]]. in fact, you were my primary correspondent on the matter (there are unanswered messages from me on your talk page) before you seem to have dropped communication once your bid for semi-protection was successful. Notanipokay (talk) 18:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Notanipokay, I did not drop communication with you. I went to bed. We are not all in the same time zones! Also, I have now answered all of your questions on my talk page including a postscript. Remember this: I do not have a horse in this race. I am not a regular editor of this wikiarticle. I had never even heard of Little Green Footballs until late last night when the brewing edit war began appearing on my Huggle screen while I was on recent changes patrol. My only concern is to prevent the sort of WP:BLP issues arising that have become of major importance here at Wikipedia, to the point that even the project’s founder has had to make statements in the press. Perhaps the solution for this article would be to have it added to the list of articles with pending changes. Now, I am going to (late!) lunch; it does not mean I am dropping communication. :) Thanks! — SpikeToronto 19:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed the Alteration and Deletion of Posts section. The blog is not a reliable source and the material is contentious about a living person. The material should not be reinserted without a reliable source. ~~ GB fan ~~ 18:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur with the removal. It should also be noted, that the folks who have been putting up this misleading information about Charles Johnson's deletion of posts run a website that is dedicated to slandering him. Hence people running around here with the name "MadKingChucky." Many of these posters were banned from Little Green Footballs for making overt threats to Mr. Johnson and members of his blog, and now run a website called http://diaryofdaedalus.com/ where they specialize in photoshopping pictures of Mr. Johnson onto pictures of Hitler and Chairman Mao among other bizarre fan fictions. That being said, these users do not carry a neutral viewpoint, and neither does the content they wish to add nor the source for it. This is a clear violation of the Wikipedia standards regarding biographical information of living persons. I have spoken to editor SpikeToronto about this, and he/she is in agreement. Spike therefore removed the content, only to have it put back up a few minutes later by a user named "m." M is another member of Charles Johnson's hate club and can be found posting at diary of daedalus's sister hate blog, http://www.theblogmocracy.com/, posting under the same name. Given these facts and Wikipedia's standards regarding biographical information of living persons, the content in question is inappropriate as well as made in bad faith and should remain off the page as per SpikeToronto's previous decision. Spacejesus5000 (talk) 18:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)SpaceJesus5000

I too agree with the removal of the Alterations and Deletions section for reasons given by SpikeToronto and Spacejesus5000. It's obvious by now that this page is being edited or vandalized by people with a vendetta against Charles Johnson and/or Little Green Footballs and are editing it with an unencyclopedic POV and are extremely antagonistic and biased towards Charles and LGF. Take for example the Wiki user named "MadKingChucky" a name which itself clearly identifies him as biased against Charles Johnson. Would you allow someone to edit a page for President Obama with a user name of "Mad King Obama"? I sincerely hope not. I therefore plead to the administrators that this page be locked for a period of time conforming to SpikeToronto's previous decisions. --Sundowners 18:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sundowners (talk • contribs)

Yawwwwwn. Here we go.

"Spacejesus5000" and "Sundowners", little green sockpuppets. How droll.

I find it interesting that you repeat the same old line and lie, claiming that people were "banned for making overt threats" - where are these overt threats? Can you find even ONE that exists somewhere Johnson hasn't re-edited himself? Of course not, for the same reason that he edits and changes people's comments all the time. Sometimes it is "disemvowelling" as someone above put it, sometimes it's far more sinister.

And for the record, I have never seen either of the sites you two sockpuppets link above, but I'll certainly be happy to check them out!

As for the accusation made by the "Spacejesus" sockpuppet that someone named "m" was editing, I am trying to go through the history and not finding one. Unless the "Spacejesus" sockpuppet is confusing the little "m" next to SpikeToronto's edits for some reason?

You little green sockpuppets are quite funny. No, really, I haven't seen a group of religious nuts so determined to attack their opponents and defend their prophet since the last time I saw video of Scientologists lashing out at Anonymous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 00:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

MadKingChucky, the issue here is a very narrow one. If you, any other editor, or I want to put in the material about this Johnson fellow redacting posts from his blog, you, any other editor, or I need to come up with a reliable source that can be used to anchor the text. Try a GoogleNews search.

The requirement that material that could give rise to biographies of living persons issues such as libel, etc., is not a suggetion or a guideline: It is a policy of the Wikimedia Foundation for all of the wikis that come under its umbrella. No one is saying that you cannot put back the material. You just have to find a verifiable reference/citation that can support the statements.

As regards “little green sockpuppets” — witty phrase that! — I too thought of such a possibility. (I always avert to the possibility of sockpuppets in a heated debate.) Only, one of the accounts was created over two years ago, while the other was created over four years ago. If you truly suspect that any of the accounts here are sockpuppets, you may of course file a report at WP:SPI. But, what you cannot do is hurl accusations at other editors. We are required to be civil, to assume good faith, and not to personally attack other editors. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 04:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the claim that Sundowners and SpaceJesus are here servicing an agenda which may constitute a conflict of interest is not just credible, but verifiable.

SpaceJesus, the age of his posting account notwithstanding, is "Space Jesus" from Little Green Footballs. Here is his comment at Little Green Footballs in which Johnson raises the matter of the article and Space Jesus responds "I'm on it!" [7]. the comment thread continues on with updates which include snippets from talk conversations between you and he. [8] so, SpaceJesus is here at Charles Johnson's suggestion.

Also, his user account, as longstanding as it is, has a prior history of vandalism and non-constructive edits (eg. [9], [10]).

sundowners, the user who nearly 3RRed himself with non-talk blankings, appears to have not made any prior edits on Wikipedia, but the date of his registration is instructive, as it came during another contentious edit war.

Before sundowners and SpaceJesus appeared, however, there where two unregistered users blanking the same section. A New Mexico-based IP blanked the section, and then an LA-based IP added the following comment to the New Mexican IP's talk page:[11]

I'm curious to know if Wikipedia editors plan to go through every blogger's old posts to see what they deleted or altered. If not, why is this section in the article about Little Green Footballs?

The LA IP subsequently re-posted the comment here on the talk page. Then Charles Johnson claimed authorship of the comment at Little Green Footballs:[[12]]

I just posted this comment in the 'Talk' section of Wikipedia's article on LGF, because someone added the stupid stalker talking points about me deleting and altering old posts:

I'm curious to know if Wikipedia editors plan to go through every blogger's old posts to see what they deleted or altered. If not, why is this section in the article about Little Green Footballs?

It might be appropriate to run a checkuser request on 76.94.174.23 to see if he and sundowners are the same person. If so, that would be a pretty serious conflict of interest issue. Perhaps a checkuser request for SpaceJesus and 68.35.110.177 should be performed as well, since they also appear to have shared a contemporaneous interest in editing articles about New Mexico election results ([[13]], [[14]].

Now, that was a lot of detail and links, and I know the reward for drilling-down to that level of detail is for partisans to burlesque it as kooky, tinfoil-hat obsessiveness, but I do think it holds a bit more weight than the obtuse characterization of editors on the pro-inclusion side as crazed legions of the conspiracy to make Charles Johnson look bad (FTR: i've never been involved with "blogmocracy". even as a commenter). Notanipokay (talk) 22:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. All that effort, when you could have spent your time more productively building this article by doing a GoogleNews search to find a reliable source that could be used as a citation to support the text. The issue is not about sockpuppets and conflicts of interest. The issue is about verifiablity and reliable sources. The passage that had been removed is only removed pending someone, anyone, who wants it included to come up with something to support the statements. It can be re-inserted back into the article this instant if you can find a reliable source to support it. Instead of spending all this wasted time on your sockpuppet/coi investigation, you should have been thinking about what User:GB fan (here) and I (here) told you in the section below. That is what this entire issue is about. But you have instead chosen the I-didn’t-hear-that approach. You refuse to get the point.

The reason that your sockpuppet/coi investigation is a waste of your time is that Spacejesus5000 and Sundowners do not matter. No experienced Wikipedian, no recent changes patroller, no Administrator, is going to allow potentially libelous text to remain in an article without proper citation to a reliable source. It is as simple as that. Every time the text gets inserted without citation to a reliable source, an uninvolved editor — like Stickee, GB fan, or I were when we came upon this morass — will come along, remove it, and warn the inserting user about not putting in potentially libelous stuff about living persons. When those warnings add up, such editors will be blocked. ALL of this is standard operating procedure here at Wikipedia.. Find a source and you’ll be okay. — SpikeToronto 00:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

double-sigh. the above entry wasn't intended to replace my response to the BLP/RS matter. it was a response to the NPA violation you encouraged SpaceJesus to post here in your conversation at his talk page [15].

since you became involved, you've falsely accused me of filing a bogus 3RR against you, misrepresented the nature of the dispute in the semi-protection bid to impugn me as a vandal, accused me of POV-pushing and now you're taking a tone with me. are you certain you are sufficiently impartial to be administrating this dispute? because i would think you'd have lent the COI matter more concern than is evidenced in the cartoon super-villain triumphalism of "ha ha! you'll have to do better than that to defeat me!" you responded with. i at least could have gotten a "Thanks!" from you like SpaceJesus did. Notanipokay (talk) 01:06, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You really don’t know when to stop, do you? Now it’s my reputation you seek to impugn. The way you refer to my “encouragement” of Spacejesus5000 to post here suggests that I was canvassing. I very carefully told him to weigh in on whichever side he was on so that a consensus for one side or the other could be built. If you are going to provide a link to his talk page, you should provide the entire page so that what is said is seen in context, a context in which the discussion on his talkpage began because I had incorrectly reverted an edit of his to this page during recent changes patrol.

I didn’t say that you had filed a WP:3RR report. I thought you had accused me of such here on this talk page. My error, since, appparently, I was confusing you with MadKingChucky, who made the statement above, perhaps an understandable mixup. It’s interesting, though, I can admit that mistake, but when you accused me of ceasing to communicate with you once the page had been semi-protected, and I pointed out to you above how that assumption was incorrect, you didn’t own up to your mistake.

I misrepresented nothing at WP:RFPP. I said that it was impossible for standard blocking to deal with the IP edit war. This was correct, as you have proven, since you were editing from six different IPs. I mentioned no IP or person specifically in the filing, so I characterized you not at all.

You refuse to get the point. You refuse to accept that this is only about WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP. Despite claiming not to be a “newb,” you refuse to accept that there are policies that must be adhered to here at Wikipedia. So instead you impugn the character of others by misrepresenting their very clear statements and claiming that they are not neutral.

I cannot imagine how anyone who cares not a wit about Little Green Footballs, who cares not a wit about this Johnson fellow, who cares only about the integrity and liability exposure of Wikipedia, and adherence to its most important policies — WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:BLP — can be seen as anything but disinterested in this outcome. It boggles one’s mind how you refuse to see what you do not want to see. I categorically stated that I have no objection to the material and that it could be reinserted into the article the instant that someone, anyone, comes up with a reliable source. To characterize me as you have, you would have had to ignore those statements, of course. Did you even bother to click on the GoogleNews search link I gave you to see if any of those articles could provide the support you need to reinsert the text? You make trying to help you a thankless task. Why? Because, I guess, the only thing you would consider help is if we all turned a blind eye and allowed the material to be reinserted without a verifiable reference/citation. — SpikeToronto 05:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You say you are concerned that editors may have a conflict of interest. It does appear from the links that there is a conflict of interest. To me what they have done is not a problem. All there edits are to the talk page or removing content that was improperly sourced contentious material about a living person. The problem with conflict of interest comes when they are adding content or removing content with adequate sourcing. ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The source in question is by Tim Blair which is published by a major newspaper. There is no BLP issue due to sourcing, just a bunch of WP:IDONTLIKEIT by LGF fanboys. That's not a proper reason to remove it. Vividuppers (talk) 14:28, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I am not a fan of LGF. Never heard of LGF until I saw this edit war going on. A blog published by a major newspaper does not make the source reliable. It is not a reliable source and if you continue adding in the information you can be blocked for violations the Biography of living persons policy. ~~ GB fan ~~ 14:35, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually the source IS reliable. A "blog" written by a journalist which is published by a newspaper with editorial oversight is no longer a self published, but a journalistic source. I've also attributed it to Blair so that any issues regarding his opinion is clearly stated to be his. The BLP is a non-issue. I'm not accusing you of being a fanboy, but I think you've been sucked in my their "arguments". Vividuppers (talk) 14:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

before reinserting you need to discuss the section here and see if the consensus changes because right now the consensus is that the source is not reliable and the information does not belong. ~~ GB fan ~~ 14:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

no, gb, the consensus is not that "the information does not belong". that's your opinion and your opinion only. don't misstate what is and is not the consensus. that is not constructive.Notanipokay (talk) 15:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I might not have stated it the best, the consensus here on the talk page is that the source is not reliable. Because the source is not reliable the information does not belong. The consensus is also that if a reliable source is found for the information then the information probably does belong. This is not only my opinion, it is others opinion also. ~~ GB fan ~~ 17:58, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

OK so now you're falling back on "consensus". Well that's clearly problematic when it consists of you and a bunch of fanboys sent over here to sanitize the article. Sorry but you'll need to actually address my points. Vividuppers (talk) 15:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll also point out that the article was stable for months until they showed up. Vividuppers (talk) 15:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Charles and his fans are playing games. Blair is reliable. The fact that he reports on a story that Charles's blanking defenders are claiming "originates" from a "non-reliable" source is bogus argumentation. Of course, this is what happens when you play "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" with what you are going for - eventually you can "trace" anything back to anything.

thank you, Vividuppers, for reminding people that the removal of the material, not the addition of the material, was the vandal behavior which began this conflict. the RS/BLP issues may be valid in a narrow sense, but they are being invoked in a way which obscures the fact that the article was stable with the material included for more than a month before Sundowners, SpaceJesus5000 and related IPs came in and began blanking the page and refusing to use talk. Notanipokay (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The fact that playing "six degrees of kevin bacon" with neo-nazi groups these days is one of Charles's favorite tactics to tar anyone he doesn't like shouldn't make his accusations valid, nor should it be used to try to claim that Tim Blair, an actual journalist, is "invalid" as a reference reporting on issues like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadKingChucky (talk • contribs) 15:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLP, WP:RS, & WP:V issues

is the prevailing interpretation of BLP and RS that nothing can be said of an individual which A) has been deemed notable enough by the new york times to be fully and specifically explicated in their print edition, or B) the individual's autobiography?Notanipokay (talk) 06:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

My interpretation is that contentious and potentially contentious information about a living person does not belong in wikipedia anywhere unless it is backed by a reliable source. A reliable source does not mean only the New York Times print edition. It can be any reliable new organization (print or online), biographies (auto or not), blogs writen by experts in the field discussed and other sources deemed reliable. The source for the information I removed was a blog that pointed to other blogs. The writer of the blog did not make any comments of his own. Therefore I do not believe the source was reliable and that is the same conclusion that was made at the reliable sources noticeboard. ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Notanipokay, this has been pointed out to you repeatedly, but when you don’t like the answer you just create a new section on the talkpage! Look, Notanipokay, if you can find a source as reputable as The New York Times that supports this, go for it! And, it does not have to be a newspaper of record like the Times. It can be any reputable print or online source. If you find it in the Peoria Journal Star, it would be acceptable. But, the blog entry that was used was little more than a collection of redirects. That will always fail WP:RS. We have told you this more times than I can count.

Wikipedia is not censored. But, there are limits. The primary directive of Wikipedia is that everything we add to an article must be verifiable. (Please read WP:V as it is the most important policy at Wikipedia.) And, something is not verifiable if it is not from a reliable source. This is never more true than when the stuff being added relates to a living person. Living people file lawsuits! It’s as simple as that. Best wishes! — SpikeToronto 16:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

i created this new section because the previous section became congested with personal attacks, not because i didn't get the answer i wanted. i have more to say about the the rs/blp issue. if i may, and if no one objects, i'm going to move things around a bit so we can continue working on this. 76.248.144.143 (talk) 19:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

When you say you are going to move things around, do you mean you are going to rearrange conversations? If that is what you mean, I object. Conversations should not be rearranged. They should be left in chronological order with indenting to show who was replying to who. If you mean something else can you please explain. ~~ GB fan ~~ 06:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

as you can see, i left things as they were for that very reason. i'm working on the blp/rs issue at the rs noticeboard and will return here when i have something which should be agreeable to everyone to add. in the meantime, the article remains protected and as you left it, so we can all chill out.Notanipokay (talk) 14:02, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Instead of working on it over at WP:RSN, where you will never get support for the Tim Blair citation, why not look for something here. Instead of trying to bend WP:RS to your will, why not do what every other Wikipedian does and bend to it instead? We have all been where you are now, wanting to insert something and being told that the source fails WP:RS. And we all adapted. Three experienced Wikipedians here have tried to help you and two experienced Wikipedians at WP:RSN have answered your question the same as the three of us here. So, why not take the advice of the five of us and spend your time looking for a source that will pass WP:RS? Finding one, and re-inserting the material, will add balance to the article. Thanks and good luck! — SpikeToronto 18:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

please be patient. i haven't made any changes to the article, so there's no cause for you and BG fan to retype the same admonishment over and over.

i think you know enough about blogs and articles about blogs in general to anticipate the problem the RS/BLP standard bears on the proposed inclusion; of course there's nothing to be found in a google news search. the tim blair blog is the only blog which is connected to a professional journalistic outfit which has mentioned the matter of the revisionist deletions and alterations at LGF, which is at least as significant a turn of events at that blog as his "why i left the right" post, and a crucial following chapter in the story. and the reason is not because other news agencies would regard it as a "risky allegation", but because the entire subject of lgf is beneath their radar.

obviously i would have to rework the text around some other sourcing, or in a way which uses the source in a more compliant way or a combination of both. that's what i was at the RS noticeboard trying to do. since my best guess at the reason for your consternation is that you'd rather have that discussion occur here, i'll submit this for your consideration. can charles johnson's admission of having changed the post (link:[16]), which is linked from the tim blair post, be used as the primary source, with the text reworked around that??Notanipokay (talk) 18:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

and, please stop telling me how to behave. the record shows that my behavior has been within conduct guidelines since the moment i clicked the "post" button on the original edit. when you and gb fan came into this, i was trying to resolve an edit-war started by single-issue sockpuppets with COI violations and histories of vandalism who were blanking the article and refusing to use talk. i've been civil and patient. please be patient with me. Notanipokay (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not a sockpuppet. I did sign up on Wikipedia with the primary motive of editing this entry, though I hope to move on to some other ones as well. I am a regular poster at LGF, under the same username. I do not think, from my reading of conflict of interest rules, that I am prohibited from editing, but that my edits will come under a stronger scrutiny and if I show bias that I should expect my entries to be deleted and recuse myself from editing. I am, in a week or so's time, going to attempt a rewrite of the LGF entry to meet Wikipedia standards, with verifiable links and a neutral tone. I will not attempt this rewrite before discussion and input from other editors has been solicited. SpikeToronto, forgive the ignorance of a newcomer, but is there a way for me to solicit the attention of a non-aligned editor to review my proposed edits once I've made them? Obdicut (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Blair’s blog would probably be okay if that particular entry had actually said anything. But instead, as mentioned earlier, it was like a redirect, providing links to other sites that themselves fail WP:RS. At first glance, I do not think that there is anything inherently wrong the with The Daily Telegraph. It’s just that Blair didn’t say anything in that particular entry. Does he have any other blog entries that deal with this issue and in which he actually says something in an article-like fashion? As for using entries from Johnson himself at the website, again at first glance, that seems okay to me because the article is about the very website from which you would be pulling the quote(s). Just remember WP:NPOV. So try to pull stuff that represents the subject in a balanced way. That is, present things that laud the website as well as stuff that critiques it.

Obdicut, you can try re-drafting the article in your own user namespace by creating a file called User:Obdicut/Little Green Footballs. Then, when you are ready, you can ask at WP:BLOG if any or some of the editors there would review your re-write. I suggest there because this wikiarticle comes under WikiProject Blogging (i.e., WP:BLOG).

Good luck to you both! Thanks! — SpikeToronto 20:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• @Notanipokay: Based on your latest post I think you should read WP:UNDUE. If Tim Blair is the only person to pick up on this and the post that was linked is the only information about the situation a paragraph about that situation would give undue weight to the viewpoint. As a side note, I apologize if any of my posts came off as admonishments, that was not my intent. My intent was to try to explain the policies here so that the new editors can understand them. I have reiterated some things because it appeared to me that I failed to adequately explain what I meant so I tried to reword things so it was more understandable. ~~ GB fan ~~ 02:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

i addressed similar concerns upthread in the talk item for my original inclusion [17]. please read that item, because i stated it much better there, but to reiterate down here, there are a lot of things in the article as it stands which would certainly be trivial in other articles, but which are not at all trivial in the context of this article. for instance, the event of johnson writing a post about how he doesn't like republicans anymore hardly caused a ripple outside of a fraction of the blog-o-sphere, but it was an important event in the context of little green footballs, and so it's important enough to be included in the wikipedia article about little green footballs. the event of johnson revising his archives of paranoid rightwing hate-speech is a subsequent, related event of proportionate weight.

if you were really looking for a candidate to place the WP:UNDUE tag on, you might look at the "charitable contributions" section [18].

i agree with obdicut that the article needs a significant re-write. perhaps when i've satisfied this particular inclusion, i'll attempt one as well so we can have two models to draw from. Notanipokay (talk) 03:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Notanipokay, I'm concerned that you think that what is going to happen is that you're going to write a piece that's highly critical of LGF, and I'm going to write one that lauds it and showers it with praise, and through some sort of alchemy we're going to merge the two together to produce a neutral article. I really don't think that's a key to success. If you're not even going to attempt to write from an unbiased point of view, then I'm not sure you really get what is going to make a successful entry.Obdicut (talk) 09:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

What you guys need to do

SpikeToronto asked me to poke my head in, to see if I could referee the argument. First I'd like to say to Notanipokay, thank you for creating an account and starting to discuss, same for Obdicut, thanks for enaging in the process. What I think you guys need to do is suggest changes to the article here, and let everyone discuss them - you're right that each of you writing their own article then coming back isn't going to work. I know nothing about this chap, so perhaps if you lay out the pieces of evidence that you want to include, we can look at how they might fit in. Is what is there now good, inadequate, POV, what? The lede could certainly use a rewrite - it hops around all over the place. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

thanks for lending fresh eyes to this.

i think, other disputes aside, there is a consensus between critics and supporters of the subject blog that the article as it stands is a bit incoherent and choppy. i think you're right that the lede is the first thing that should be addressed. perhaps we can agree on this list of things which are notable enough to be included in the lede:

*LGF as one of the seminal blogs of the modern blogosphere.

*its post-911 turn toward rightwing politics.

*its role in the Killian Documents Scandal and the lesser "fauxtography" scandal.

*its post Obama innauguration turn against the right and toward the left.

Notanipokay (talk) 02:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

thanks for lending fresh eyes to this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.153.141.215 (talk • contribs) 04:17, 5 November 2010

I just want to say, by the way, that when I asked Elen if she would mind lending us some of her wisdom, it was a few days ago before things simmered down here on the talk page. Notanipokay, you might want to respond to Obdicut’s query above so that you can each get a feel for how you can collaborate with one another. And, by the way, even if one of you were to write the critique, and the other the plaudits, the two could still be meshed to create a balanced NPOV article. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 04:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

i didn't see the query. what did he ask me? Notanipokay (talk) 05:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

It was this edit at the bottom of this section above. Sometimes, because people add content to sections above the latest, it helps to go through the diffs since your last edit in the page history. That way you won’t miss anything. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

i saw the comment, but i didn't want to respond to his "if you're not even going to attempt to write from an unbiased point of view" because my aim and my conduct in this thread has been to encourage good faith and consensus, not to perpetuate the edit-warring. where do you see a question there? Notanipokay (talk) 14:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The question didn’t have a question mark, but essentially he was asking if your idea of a good re-write would be a wikiarticle that largely pulled from critiques of Little Green Footballs and would tend to exclude anything positive about it. This is why I said that it would not matter because “even if one of you were to write the critique, and the other the plaudits, the two could still be meshed to create a balanced NPOV article.” Thanks! — SpikeToronto 21:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Spike, the only problem with that is that I don't actually want to write an entry that is just plaudits. I'd prefer to do an actual, sober attempt at an encyclopedic entry. What I'm concerned about is that, given that there's a large population of people who are hypercritical of LGF and of Charles Johnson, that the result of meshing my attempts at an unbiased article with other attempts that contain unacknowledged negative bias will result in an article with an overall negative tone. I don't want to be forced into being the 'positive' guy when that's a role that doesn't suit me.

For example, my rewrite of the entire deletion and editing of posts issue would be a rather dry "Unlike newspapers, LGF has no policy that posts which are edited or deleted will be noted as having been altered. Charles Johnson has edited several past posts for the stated reason of bringing them into line with his current views and to remove the ability of others to use those posts as supports for their argument." I feel this addresses the facts without casting an innately negative or positive tone on it. I don't see any point in noting that users posts have been deleted, since this is completely standard across almost all blogs.

I will attempt my edits this weekend, and hope that we can reach a good, neutral, and factual entry that is not an attempt to paint LGF or Charles Johnson in any particular light, but can present facts and let readers of the article make their own moral and ethical judgement of those facts.Obdicut (talk) 14:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Obdicut, i think, ironically, the version you propose casts a more negative tone than the one i introduced. my wording, for instance, avoids the assertion that the edits and deletions were done "for the stated reason of bringing them into line with his current views." i fear that if you put that up, spacejesus and "sundowners" will accuse you of being an agent in the conspiracy to make charles johnson look bad too.

what did you think of my suggestion about the lede?Notanipokay (talk) 16:45, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Your time spent predicting the possible actions of others is probably not time well-spent. As to the lede, I don't actually understand people's obsessions with placing people and blogs somewhere along the 'right' or 'left' non-existent spectrum, so I think two out of your four points are trivial. Post-9/11, he was highly critical of Democrats and their response to radical Islam; at the same time, he was critical of Vlaams Belang and other right-wing groups. He opposed President Obama's election, a decision he's said he now regrets, and has since then focused more on the increased radicalism of the GOP and their allies. However, he is still entirely critical of figures such as Kucinich's stance on Israel, or others' on the 'left' who supported the Palestinian 'peace' flotilla. I think that there are two main problems with attempting to write about Charles Johnson's politics: 1. The left-right scale is insufficient to describe anyone of moderate complexity; it's main use is as shorthand for "Democrats" or "Republicans". 2. There is a difference between what Charles Johnson himself personally believes and what he spends time using LGF to examine. So, I think an examination of what topics LGF focused on is a lot more important and significant than attempts to pin him down on an arbitrary left-right scale that makes sense, usually, only in terms of self-identification.Obdicut (talk) 19:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

@Obdicut: It will not matter if one version of the article is heavily negative. When the work is “meshed,” the end result must satisfy WP:NPOV, which, in a nutshell, requires that wikiarticles be balanced:

Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias.

As for your other concern — “unacknowledged negative bias” — such would be against multiple policies at Wikipedia: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE, and, in this wikiarticle, WP:BLP. No talkpage consensus can be used to support any against-policy inclusion of material in violation of any or all of these core policies, which together form the second of the five pillars of Wikipedia. Remember, the objection to the section that was deleted was not its content, it’s that the only citation given was to a webpage that contained no content other than links to material on third-party sites. There was no objection to Tim Blair or to the Daily Telegraph. The objection was to the fact that the link provided had no text supporting what was inserted in the wikiarticle, only links to other sites. It, most likely unintentionally and in good faith, leveraged Blair’s name, and the name of the Telegraph, to legitimate the statements added to the article.

@Obdicut & Notanipokay: I notice that there is both a wikiarticle about the person, Johnson, and a separate one about his blog, Little Green Footballs. According to WP:BLOG, the project under which this article falls, this is because each of the blog and his own personna have sufficient notability to warrant separate treatment. Thus, it would seem more appropriate that material relating to the personal politics of Johnson be in his personal wikiarticle. Consequently, the article here about the blog should be written in the manner in which one would write an article about any other publication. That is, it should resemble the sort of article one might write about The New Republic, Maclean’s, Slate, or Salon, for instance. (Sorry I don’t give a blog example. I don’t read/follow any of them.) That is, the article should be about the blog’s history, ownership, readership, demographics, political stance, writers (e.g., education, previous placements), etc., and less about the personalities involved. The problem with too much focus on Johnson himself is that it makes the article less about the blog — thus running afoul of WP:BLOG — and makes it more likely to run afoul of WP:NPOV. I would love to see a “warts and all” article about the blog. Then, I might learn something about Little Green Footballs that is factual and not based on opinion. — SpikeToronto 23:18, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've finished my rewrite of the article to bring it in line with other articles on blogs. I need some help with it, though. I'm not sure how to bring it to the attention of WP:Blog. Can someone please advise? Page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Obdicut/Little_Green_Footballs

I think if you leave a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Blogging pointing to the rewrite and to this page for some of the background that should take care of it. ~~ GB fan ~~ 13:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

replacing valid contrib

recently there was an editwar and the result was the removal of a valid contrib. the way this unfolded was as follows:

-a factual, neutrally-worded and validly sourced contrib was included and remained there for better than a month with no controversy.

-charles johnson, the article's subject, along with confederates he enlisted, began blanking the section without going to talk. when they finally entered the talk page, they continued their edit war from a position of conflict of interest with personal attacks.

-invalid BLP and RS objections were cited to defeat the contrib.

the result is that, through a campaign of WP:IDONTLIKEIT designed to defeat valid contributions, the article's subject was able to defeat inclusion of a fact which he acknowledged himself, but would prefer to have dressed only in his own spin or not at all, and a campaign of disruptive and violatory editing was rewarded with their preferred outcome.

the BLP/RS objection was and remains to be invalid. i will explain:

-the substance of the claim is that charles johnson had been caught in the act of revisionist editing of his blog. the source cited was a blog which, for general purposes, complied with the RS specifications for blogs because it was the blog of a professional journalist published under the imprimatur of a major daily newspaper.

-nonetheless, the RS validity of that particular entry was disputed on the claim that it rested the weight of it's substance on a link to a non-RS compliant blog rather than first-party explication.

-this second, derivative claim is false. there are two links stemming from the source; one was to the non-RS compliant blog, the other was to Johnson's own blog, admitting that he had been "caught" and spinning it as the innocent correction of a grammatical error.

the result of the [Noticeboard] ruling was given by the senior editor brought into this talk page at the conclusion of the edit war and was, quoting, "If you have Johnson, on Johnson's blog, saying he picked his nose, then you can use it. He's a reliable source for what he said/did himself."

the substance of the erroneously deleted edit, that charles johnson had been caught in the act of revisionist editing, is not "controversial" in any valid sense of the word and the source provided in the contrib is not in violation of the BLP or RS specifications.

consequently, i am re-adding the contrib. Notanipokay (talk) 22:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with everything said in the historical summary above, and I'm not sure the two sections added by Notanipokay couldn't be better worded, but I do agree with the gist of the argument that it's appropriate to note LGF revisionism here. Mark Shaw (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

mark, i would eagerly accept your edits on the section. i really don't care if my original wording is intact. i shouldn't care at all about what becomes of any wikipedia article. what does bother me is the way the subject of this article was able to red-pencil it's content. Notanipokay (talk) 05:15, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Charles Johnson has sent a confederate to canvas a mod named SpikeToronto to re-red-pencil the article to his liking

"It's that same obsessed weirdo again, putting back the badly-sourced edits that he was told he could not make, several times before. If you would leave a note for the admins, I'd appreciate it. I can't do it myself."(link)

"sure, the last admin and i were on the level about it all. ill write him after im done with this paper." (link)

"Thanks. That guy should be blocked from making edits -- he's demonstrated many times over that he's not on the level, and now he's sneaking back in to make edits he was told he could not make."(link)

Notanipokay (talk) 06:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've taken a closer look at the edits in question (represented by this diff). I'm not going to make any changes myself as I have a slight conflict of interest as a booted former LGF commenter, and don't really want to get involved except as an observer. But, for the record, it seems to me that the "alteration and deletion" section, at least, needs to be rewritten in a less accusatory and more neutral tone. Notanipokay seems to be trying to wave a bloody shirt here. While I approve, to some degree and for personal reasons, of the idea of seeing CJ portrayed as a buffoon, I have to point out that it's simply not encyclopedic. Let's stick to the facts and apply as little slant as possible. Mark Shaw (talk) 21:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

how about, "johnson responded to allegations of revisionist editing by writing that he had been 'caught' correcting a 'mistake'"? i don't know if that sounds more neutral. another editor who had come to defend johnson suggested a wording which explicitly stated that johnson's intent was to bring the older post in line with his current views. again, i'm not insisting on my wording here, but i don't know how to make it more neutral than it is. sometimes it's just that way. there's no way to say "mr. x was convicted of fraud" more neutrally than "mr. x was convicted of fraud." Notanipokay (talk) 23:47, 5 April 2011 (UTC)