Talk:Maundy Thursday

A large discussion, on 2009-04-05, was held on whether this article should be named Maundy Thursday or Holy Thursday. The result of the discussion was that the article will retain the title Maundy Thursday.

Article Name

I did a search for "Holy Thursday" and was surprised to be directed to this article. I had never heard of "Maundy" anything before, so I assumed I had searched incorrectly and searched again. After some confusion, I came to learn that some English people use this term for "Holy Thursday". So, my next obvious question was why is the article titled "Maundy Thursday"? I searched the archives and saw that this discussion has been played out before. However, when virtually all Catholics and U.S. English-speaking Christians call the day "Holy Thursday" (constituting the vast majority of Christians), how can we justify calling the article "Maundy Thursday"?LedRush (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as there has been no objection to the change, and the archived record seems to indicate more support for the change, would anyone like to add anything before a change is made?LedRush (talk) 17:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I congratulate you for checking before moving. Have you read the heated discussion on the disccusion that was held on the occasion of last year's Holy Thursday? That discussion is referred to in the second item at the top of this page. I do not believe you can win consensus for a change. If you do wish to try, why not wait until close to this year's Holy Thursday, when more editors will be looking at this page. I am of course using "Holy Thursday" in your sense (and mine), not in the sense found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, where (doubtless following general English usage before the Protestant Reformation) it means what you and I call Ascension Thursday. This ambiguity of the term "Holy Thursday" is, I think, an important reason for keeping "Maundy Thursday" as the title of the article: "Maundy Thursday" may be a less common term, but it is unambiguous and generally understood even by those who do not use it themselves. Esoglou (talk) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I read the history and knew this was way too contentious to unilaterally move without a very, very long warning period. In my reading of the history, it looked like there was more support for "Holy Thursday" than "Maundy Thursday", but I could be mistaken. Also, I am not persuaded by the potential Holy/Ascension mix up: So very few Christians know of or use the term Maundy that the confusion of its use would be far greater than a mix up over Holy/Ascension. Any potential mix-up could be dealt with more easily than the Maundy/Holy mix up is: in the lead.LedRush (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I just went back through the archives and saw that while the discussions seem to favor a move, the last vote does not.LedRush (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, just to set the record straight, the official Catholic term in English is "Holy Thursday" http://www.vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2009/index_en.htm Of course, this is not a dispositive argument. I am merely trying to get a baseline for impending discussions.LedRush (talk) 21:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Methodists in the US use "Holy Thursday" in what appears to be an official capacity. http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=258&GID=180&GMOD=VWD&GCAT=H LedRush (talk) 21:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Internationally, Lutherans officially say "Maundy Thursday". http://www.lutheranworld.org/News/LWI/EN/2032.EN.html LedRush (talk) 21:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

American Presbytarians officially use "Maundy". http://www.pcusa.org/missionyearbook/Apr/09.htm LedRush (talk) 21:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Orthodox Catholic Church seems to use "Holy" (or "Holy and Great") http://www.homb.org/calendar-and-daily-readings/church-calendar.php LedRush (talk) 22:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Anglicans use "Maundy" http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/news.cfm?mode=entry&entry=A908EEFA-0FA9-AFB6-3632ACDD53A6D8D1 LedRush (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Baptists don't appear to celebrate the holiday.LedRush (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I would encourage you to read the Names in English section of the article. In the previous consensus on this issue, it was decided to retain the name Maundy Thursday as the article title, especially since Holy Thursday is the alternate name for Ascension Day in some Churches. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I have read the section and, as I have indicated above, I have read the archive.LedRush (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think the arguments grounded in "confusion" (e.g., Holy/Ascension or "Great and Holy") are unpersuasive straw men. They can be easily dealt with in the lead or in a disambiguation reference at the top of the page, and I think there are excellent reasons to conclude that "Holy Thursday" is both a more generic or generalizable name, as well as less grounded in particular linguistic and religious traditions that are not shared by a majority of English speakers. MrArticleOne (talk) 00:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

So, anyone have any new thoughts? This bothers me every year as the holdiday approaches, largely because the term Maundy Thursday is so rarely used in comparison to Holy Thursday.LedRush (talk) 17:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Well my position speaks for itself. "Holy Thursday" is, in my opinion, a more generic or generalizable name and is more appropriate than "Maundy Thursday," which is marked by relatively narrow religious and linguistic traditions which are inappropriate considerations for the article title. Frankly I think that this has become something of a sectarian dispute, as my recollection of the past debates is that Catholics are (by and large) leading the charge to change the name to "Holy Thursday" and Protestants seek to maintain "Maundy." This is unfortunate, as it distracts from the fact that, irrespective of sectarian distinctions, "Holy" is more generic and generalizable and is, IMO, more appropriate. MrArticleOne (talk) 21:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've always seen this as a more nationilistic dispute, as Catholics throughout the world use the term Holy Thursyday, as do all Americans, regardless of religious affiliation. Really, since this is English Wikipedia, we have only English Protestants seeking to keep the minority name as the title of the article.LedRush (talk) 20:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree. In the Anglophone world the day is definitely called "Holy Thursday" more. I think this is especially confusing for Americans because the term is quite literally almost never used here. The disambiguation reference at the top of the page would easily redirect people to Feast of the Ascension and Maundy would properly be used as an alternative name in the first line of the article. Where the confusion engendered by dual use of the term "Holy Thursday" is not ideal, I think that because that conflation of terms exists in areas that use both "Maundy" and "Holy" to refer to the Thursday before Easter there is an anticipation that "Holy Thursday" might be either day (and thus a quick look to the disambiguation reference would be in order), whereas in those parts of the English-speaking world that do not ever use "Maundy" the confusion lacks any context. As was said above, people tend to think they have landed upon the wrong page altogether.Treko (talk) 13:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that it is only "English Protestants". I am neither English nor Protestant, yet yesterday our church celebrated Maundy Thursday. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 01:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this is an over-broad generalization (I know Americans who call it Maundy Thursday -- although no American Catholics), but independent of the denominational debate, I feel that "Holy Thursday" is simply a superior, more neutral term less influenced by a specific culture and linguistic tradition. MrArticleOne (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

This issue was already settle in an RfC, where the community decided to retain the term "Maundy Thursday" for this article. Please read this discussion there. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 02:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

passover

This article seems to be more about the naming convention of different sects of Christians, and not on the day itself. How is it that the word "passover" does not appear in this article?LedRush (talk) 21:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is about the Christian celebration of Holy Thursday, not about the Jewish feast of Passover, which the Gospel of John describes as beginning on the evening of what we would call Good Friday, not Holy Thursday, of the year when Jesus died. See John 19:14, [1] and [2]. That complicates matters. Esoglou (talk) 19:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Holy Thursday is a celebration of the last supper, which was a celebration of passover, no?LedRush (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Holy Thursday is not a Passover Meal in John's gospel. Jesus is crucified on Preparation Day in that gospel (Jn 19:14). You are correct that the other three gospels treat the Last Supper as a Passover meal. Only the gospel of John has the story of the washing of the feet and the "mandatum" (Latin, "command") that the disciples should wash one another's feet (Jn 13:14). Martin X. Moleski, SJ (talk) 12:05, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Sculpiturgy?

The caption for Master Paul's sculpture of the Last Supper uses the word "sculpiturgy." That doesn't seem like a real word to me, although I have no means of proving that it is just a typo. It looks like a combination of "sculpture" and "liturgy," but I don't see how that would happen by accident. Martin X. Moleski, SJ (talk) 11:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I ran a quick google search on the word and found nothing besides this article. I second the motion to have it changed. --W. T. Perkins (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

• I agree. Changed. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 01:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)