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April 27

Salvador, Bahia

This article says Salvador's (Portuguese) historical "long name" is São Salvador da Bahia de Todos os Santos, which it defines as San Savior of All Saints' Bay. This seems like an almost-certainly flawed and/or inaccurate translation.

If "São" is indeed the equivalent of the Spanish "San," than it obviously begins with Holy Savior. "Bahia de Todos os Santos" obviously means 'bay of all saints' or All Saints' Bay. However, from what I know of Spanish (I don't speak Portuguese but they're similar), it seems that All saints' is being used as in all saints' bay, not as in Holy Savior of all saints. Furthermore, Holy Savior of the bay of all saints (the current translation), or in other words, "All Saints' Bay's Holy Savior" simply doesn't make much sense.

Therefore, my best guess would be that the accurate English translation is Holy Savior on All Saints' Bay. This is all independent speculation, and my question is whether anyone can help me confirm or deny this. Thanks, Swarm X 02:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]

You might find more experts and linguists to answer your question at WP:Reference desk/Language. Nothing wrong in asking it here (many people, like me, keep an eye on both desks), but the answers you might elicit from the language desk could be sharper, better-focussed or more informed. —— Shakescene (talk) 03:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Facepalm Facepalm Can't believe I missed that. Thank you. :) Swarm X 03:35, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've copied the question to the language board and refined the wording so it's more clear. Swarm X 03:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As I noted over there, the city name appears to translate to "[City of the] Holy Savior, of [the state of] Bahia, of All Saints' [Bay]." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ruling monarchs with twin siblings

So, after answering a question over at the Entertainment desk on The Three Musketeers, I (as I ofetn do) let my mouse wander through various articles on Musketeer stories, and I was reminded of the way that the Man in the Iron Mask story finds its way into Dumas and later film adaptations; the crux is that the Man in the Iron Mask is really Louis XIV's twin brother, imprisoned to avoid dynastic embarassment. That got me thinking; I can't think of one European monarch at all who was a twin. Not a single one, going back to the dark ages, in any European country. That would make hundreds of possible monarchs, and given that the rate of twins is something like 1 out of every 40 pregnancies (on average), it would be quite amazing not to run into twins in any of the major dynastic houses, where one of the twins became a ruling monarch. Can anyone think of any ruling monarchs who were actually a twin? --Jayron32 03:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Poking around, I found at List_of_twins#Twins_in_royal_families that James II of Scotland had a twin brother who died in infancy. Any other twins, preferably those which lived long enough for their sibling to sit on a throne? --Jayron32 03:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here are a couple of sites that discuss the issue, one with a list of names: [1], [2]. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 04:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff Jack, thanks for finding it. However, no-one listed on either of those sites was actually a twin sitting on a throne, which was kinda what I was looking for. The list in the second site notes, besides the aforementioned James II of Scotland, several female twins who were children of French kings (thus unable to become monarchs), and the two sets of twins of Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse, who himself was very briefly the King of Finland (for like 3 months); however two of those twins predeceased him, even before he was King, and his actual heir after their deaths (who would have presumably inherited the throne of Finland had it outlasted Frederick Charles) was Philipp, Landgrave of Hesse, who was not a twin himself. Thanks for finding those leads, some very good stuff there, however I'm still looking for an actual monarch who had an actual living twin sibling while he was ruling. --Jayron32 04:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
President Lech Kaczyński (left) nominating his brother, Jarosław Kaczyński, as prime minister of Poland, 14 July 2006
In the maybe-close-but-no-cigar category, you could consider Romulus & Remus and Lech & Jarosław Kaczyński, who (until a fatal plane crash last year en route to a commemoration of the Katyn Forest Massacre) were simultaneously President and Prime Minister of Poland. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oooh. That's actually pretty cool having a sitting President and a sitting Prime Minister being twins to each other. Makes you wonder if they ever pulled the "lets swap offices and see if anyone notices" trick... --Jayron32 05:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was probably more difficult for pre-modern twins to survive. We had a question like this maybe last year or a couple of years ago. The only medieval twins I can remember are Waleran de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Worcester and Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester. Twins were considered kind of unlucky, if they survived infancy, especially fraternal ones - without really understanding the processes of conception, the only explanation they had for fraternal twins was that the mother was impregnated by two different men. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:35, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Shakespeare, of course, was far from shy about using twins in his plots and characters, as in Twelfth Night and even more boldly in A Comedy of Errors whose leading parts are two pairs of twins. But I'm pretty sure that twins (probably more because they were unusual than because they were familiar) have been a stock element of literature, poetry and folklore going back far beyond Romulus & Remus or Castor and Pollux. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Had Elvis Presley's twin brother survived, we might have had dual Kings of Rock and Roll. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Tsar Nicholas II (left) with his first cousin King George V, Berlin, 1913.
Even though they were cousins rather than twins, there was a strong physical resemblance between Tsar Nicholas II and King George V. Gabbe (talk) 07:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We-ell... if you look at their eyes, the two men don't really look that similar. They just have the same haircut and the same beard in that photo. —Angr (talk) 07:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Also, they were born 3 years and thousands of miles apart. Not much twinning happening there. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A modern Tsar Nicholas lookalike is Prince Michael of Kent. Again, the beard helps. Alansplodge (talk) 11:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can do quite a good George V/Nicholas II when my beard's trimmed right and I'm in black and white (unless they had ginger beards too). DuncanHill (talk) 12:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mary I, Queen of Scots, miscarried twin sons after giving birth to her successor, James VI. Had they been born, they would have soon become heir presumptive and second-in-line, so I'd say they are relevant. Surtsicna (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Another near miss. Oshin, King of Armenia (or, to be more precise, of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia), who reigned from 1307 to 1320, had a twin brother Alinakh who died in 1310, three years into Oshin's reign. Alinakh isn't mentioned on our Oshin page, but is on the Leo II, King of Armenia page. I call this a near miss because Cilicia was in what's now the Asiatic part of Turkey, while you asked for European monarchs, Jayron. --Antiquary (talk) 18:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Still a good find! Thanks! --Jayron32 18:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in that case I'll throw in Princess Ashraf Pahlavi, twin sister of the late Shah of Iran. --Antiquary (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Armenian Cilicia was pretty well Europeanized though, thanks to its connections to the crusader states in the area (or, that had been in the area in previous generations). Adam Bishop (talk) 22:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In response to a point above (I got lost in the indentation), this paper is a survey of twin births in contemporary rural Nepal, which gives some useful data on the survival rate of twins outside the modern Western medical environment. Only 46% of twin pregnancies there resulted in two live births; over the first six months, individual twins had more than five times the mortality rate of similar "singletons". (After the first six months, they're no worse off). Shimgray | talk | 23:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Interesting and very enlightening. That might explain why pre-modern adult twins were so rare... --Jayron32 01:12, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, I think it's going to be dominant here. A quick order-of-magnitude estimate - assume an average of fifty monarchs at a time, at an average of 25 years each; that's 2000 over the past thousand years. If 1.6% of pregnancies are multiple births, there'd be approximately thirty who might be one of twins. Allowing for the increased mortality - and that we want cases of both twins surviving, not just singles like James II - you'd have literally a handful of cases. At that point, not finding any doesn't seem too unlikely! Shimgray | talk | 20:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hu vs Barack

US is the most powerful country in the world and its military is stronger than the next 20 strongest countries combined. There is a saying the president of the US is the president of the world. Then why Hu is ranked the most powerful person and Barack second? [3] --Helephanda (talk) 07:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bigger army? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For countries with big armies, see List of countries by number of troops. --Theurgist (talk) 07:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, the good old days, when warm bodies meant strong armies. *Sigh* DOR (HK) (talk) 08:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because dictators have more power than presidents. Barak can't do much without the approval of the legislative branch, the courts, and, ultimately, the voters. Hu, on the other hand, may have unlimited power in China. Of course, it's always difficult to tell where power really lies in such a closed political system, so it's possible that Hu is just a figurehead and somebody hidden wields the real power. StuRat (talk) 08:02, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rankings such as these are wholly the result of the bais inherent in the original criteria. This one is from Forbes, so that might give you some idea why they might play down the power of the US presidency. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A freely elected official is going to have relatively less power than a dictator does. There's one glitch with dictators, though: they die. We've had quite a few Presidents die, but it's a job, the open position gets filled quickly, and the presidency goes on. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(after super-massive edit conflict, so excuse redundancies) Presumably because (which I don't know to be true) Hu Jintao has far more of the power within the People's Republic of China than Barack Obama has of the power within the United States. The constitutional, legal and political restraints upon a U.S. President's power are made clear pretty well every week. While it's very hard for me as a non-Chinese-speaking non-Communist non-scholar to know how power is distributed within the Communist Party of China, the Chinese Council of Ministers, the People's Liberation Army and the secret police, whoever did Forbes' ranking must have thought that Hu Jintao faced far fewer limitations and challenges within that system than Obama does within the U.S. system as it works today. The National People's Congress has shown in recent years that it can sometimes have some residual influence on a few issues that don't bear upon the ruling élite's power, but it would be laughable to compare those powers to those of the United States Congress. China is trying for a number of reasons to become a nation of laws, but again it would be absurd to compare her judiciary's power over the executive (or the army and security services) to that of the United States Supreme Court or even to that of highest courts in the several states. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Richard McGregor's recent The Party is an excellent, easily accessible, study of where the CCP and its hierarchy fit in the Chinese system - if you do want to read up on the topic, I can wholeheartedly recommend it. Shimgray | talk | 21:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm really surprised that people believe that Hu Jintao is a dictator. 90 years of serious study into the structure of the Soviet style societies clearly indicate that all such societies have internal structures of power which clearly limit the power of the apparent "leader". Hu's power is mediated by multiple institutional and ideologically based social units. Moreover, Soviet style societies have far stronger cabinet style decision making structures, closer to the UK cabinet than the US executive's system. While Soviet style societies concentrate far more social power into the executive cabinet than, for example, the Australian contemporary example does, they are still reliant on secondary elements of their constitutional formation including the courts and legislative. Additionally, economic power operates in vastly different manners to that experienced in Western model capitalism. This is as bad as the totalitarian thesis. For a brief, you could read either of Djilas' new class or the one on conversations with Stalin. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt it's realistic at all to say that Hu is a dictator, even qualified by the general observation about totalitarian regimes which Fifelfoo outlined. Hu is not Mao. Policy is, at the top end, formulated collectively by the Politburo, and the Politburo is by no means stuffed with people who are politically aligned with Hu, much less obey him blindly. In practice, because political mandate is not clearly conferred through elections, the regime needs to take more heed of popular opinion on certain matters than a democratic government would. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's leave the polemics for web forums, okay? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 21:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Obama can invade any country in the world, as long as Hu is willing to lend him the money. But more generally... the U.S. lost the Korean War where China was concerned - it was pushed back quickly to the line the Chinese had set. Likewise the Vietnam War. The Chinese always had four times the people. And now the Chinese have a military, they have an economy, they graduate three times as many engineers each year, they've set off the largest nuke ever built ... the whole idea of the U.S. as a "superpower" seems like a quaint and useful delusion. The Americans should pay for ill-considered military actions around the world while everyone else pats them on the head and laughs behind their backs. Wnt (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The methodology is explained on the website. It is all very arbitrary, and ultimately depended on the opinions of 'seven Forbes editors'. Generally, I suspect the aim of these Forbes lists is to strike a balance between being provocative and believable; accuracy doesn't seem to be one of their concerns. In particular, it seems absurd to put Sepp Blatter above the leaders of various powerful nations and international organisations. 81.98.38.48 (talk) 18:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This gentlemen put a lot of ads on his car, now how can I have them on mine?

As a college student, I could use the extra ad revenue. I'm sure that my '02 PT Cruiser that I bought like-new would be the ideal condition to put the ad on. It also has flame paintjobs, and a 2-bike rack mounted high on the rear door. Therefore, it can be seen a mile off.

Now, how would I get advertisements onto my car so I can earn passive income like this gentleman in the link?

--70.179.169.115 (talk) 08:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Short answer, it can be done but you'd need to guarantee that your car would be visible for a lot of the time in the right places. Previous discussion on this subject --Viennese Waltz 08:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Democratic party in the northwestern Midwest

There is a pocket of the rural midwest that consistently has stood out for nearly a century; it includes the northwestern part of the midwest, with the strongest point in the sparsely populated northeastern part of Minnesota. The area notably encompasses Minnesota and western Wisconsin, but at different times has also included the eastern Dakotas, western Wisconsin, eastern Iowa, northern Missouri and the upper peninsula of Michigan.

The trend appears to reach back at least into the 1910s, where it started as allegiance to the progressive and socialist parties. I've created a timeline:

I'm sorry for typing out such a long explanation of all of this (WP:TL;DR), but I hope I've formatted all of this well enough that some of you can give your time to it and analyze it. I can't for the life of me figure out why rural Minnesota is much different than rural New England, or rural Nebraska. The only thing I can think is the Norwegian influence, but a) why did the pro-Democratic feeling crystallize so much in the 1980s (well after the Norwegians had integrated, and while their Lutheran brethren in New England still voted Republican) and b) why did the region move around so much (I don't think there are many Norwegians in northern Missouri; I could be wrong) It's all very puzzling.

Thanks for your time already. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I very strongly suspect that democratic votes are proxying for an underlying social-political complex aligned far more strongly with the complexes found in Social Democratic and Labourite politics, what many Americans call "progressive". While the Democrats do contain some progressive strains, they're not an ideological party. It is more likely that the underlying sociological construct has forced the Democratic party in that region to reflect their values. I'd suggest reading some labour or social history on the Wisconsin idea. This'll probably give you an idea why rural "small" farmers have integrated into a progressive political alliance. In my Australian experience the argument comes from Maoists and older Communists about the ability of workers in settler societies to become small farmers, and conversely the reliance of small farmers on part time employment as workers. You may already be aware of this because you're aware of Debs. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some books to look at (although I've only read the first all the way through) are:
  1. The Intellectuals and McCarthy: the radical specter by Michael Paul Rogin, MIT Press, 1966(?) -- concentrates on detailed study of voting patterns in Wisconsin and the Dakotas
  2. Midwestern Progressive Politics by Russell B. Nye, Harper Torchbooks, 1962 (?)
  3. The Emerging Republican Majority by Kevin Phillips, Anchor Doubleday, 1969
  4. Agrarian Socialism by Seymour Martin Lipset, about the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation in Western Canada
(I may have a chance to give more specific bibliographic details later, although that's enough information to do your own Google/Google Books/Amazon search.) Compare the earlier question on this page about Southern Democratic presidents, where I posted a comparison of the Deep South's distinctive voting patterns (e.g. for Al Smith, Strom Thurmond, Barry Goldwater and George Wallace). —— Shakescene (talk) 09:58, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you haven't done so already, see Wikipedia's articles on subjects and people like the Nonpartisan League, the Farmer-Labor Party, A.C. Townley and Henrik Shipstead, in addition to the obvious ones about Hubert Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy, Orville Freeman, Paul Wellstone, Robert M. La Follette, Sr. and Robert M. La Follette, Jr. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This region was historically very different from rural New England. Rural New England was a region of small farmers (entrepreneurs), entrepreneurial craftsmen, and, to a lesser extent, wealthy retirees and heirs living on country estates on the proceeds of their or their ancestors' investments in industry. These groups have traditionally been at the heart of the Republican Party. New England farmers were mainly dairy farmers whose customers were mainly grocers and small wholesalers based in the cities of New England and New York, so these farmers had some entrepreneurial autonomy. By contrast, northern Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan were largely populated by loggers and miners employed by large companies based in Minneapolis or Chicago, or grain farmers (mainly in the eastern Dakotas and western Minnesota) at the mercy of the railroads and large warehousing firms in Midwestern cities. (See our article on Mesabi Range for the importance of mining in northern Minnesota.) Prior to the emergence of the Progressive movement, the Republican Party had the allegiance of most Protestant whites in the northern States. When Progressivism first emerged, it was mainly a movement of the urban and largely professional middle class. It was Robert M. LaFollette, Sr., of Wisconsin, who after 1900 made Progressivism appealing to farmers and workers with his anti-corporate rhetoric. In many ways, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was able to coopt the concerns of this voting block for the Democratic Party during the Great Depression, and the local Democratic parties of the upper Midwest have been careful to continue to serve this constituency ever since. Marco polo (talk) 14:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Michael P. Rogin's book (The Intellectuals & McCarthy) carefully distinguishes the counties of Wisconsin and the Dakotas not only by their ethnicity and religion, but also by the soil and crops grown. He correlates conservative tendencies with the rich soil of the Corn (maize) Belt, similar to that of parts of Kansas, Nebraska and Iowa, and radical ones with the poorer soil of the Wheat Belt, further distinguished — for those who want to research Wikipedia, the Census Bureau (http://wwww.census.gov) and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (e.g. http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Wheat/) — between winter wheat and spring wheat. Rogin found a clear difference between those counties that supported Joseph McCarthy and those that had supported Robert M. La Follette, Sr. That sharp divide seems to have persisted in Wisconsin to this very day; I'd suggest checking the files of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/news) to see the razor-thin Wisconsin Supreme Court election results of April 5, 2011 (no doubt headed to a second or third recount). —— Shakescene (talk) 22:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to say that Wikipedia's articles are pretty thin: Wheat Belt and Grain Belt redirect to Corn Belt which is a rather short article. But with a little digging, I found some of the USDA's (and Cornell University's) terrific maps of crop by county; see also (for more general county statistics) the Department's Atlas of Rural and Small-Town America. (By the way, I'm no farm boy or Midwesterner.) —— Shakescene (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See also 2007 Census of Agriculture: Crops & Plants and 2007 Census of Agriculture: Economics. Note that some kinds of historical data for past years are available.—— Shakescene (talk) 05:17, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
¶ Also by the way, Gene Debs was no Badger, he was a Hoosier born in the railroad crossroads of Terre Haute, Indiana (where I've seen the house where he spent his later years sharing tales and whiskey with James Whitcomb Riley, the "Hoosier Poet"). In 1924, "Fighting Bob" La Follette, the Progressive candidate for President (also endorsed by the Debs' Socialist Party of America), carried his home state of Wisconsin. —— Shakescene (talk) 03:56, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well I appreciate all the answers to my question. I guess at this point I may need to do some further reading, but I'm also looking to see if i can't yet wiggle a more specific answer out of this board. I'm not debating the idea that a rural farmer will necessary be against progressivist ideas; just ask the black rural farmers in the South. What I'm wondering is why these specific rural farmers embraced progressivism, while their counterparts across the country embraced the Republican Party. As an individual living in Pennsylvania, I can tell you quite succinctly why rural people here vote Republican: the Democrats have come to represent the ideas that are simply too modern and cosmopolitan for a culture that takes pride in traditional values. In other words, I'm saying that rural people are close to the Republicans on social issues, but the rural people have traditionally leaned closer to Democrats on economic issues (think of West Virginia: the state votes one of the strongest in the country in voting Republicans in presidential elections, yet paradoxically has one of the highest Democrat/Republican voter ratios and often votes for socially conservative Dems in local elections).

Yet something about the circumstances of this part of the midwest have led these people to buck the trends which are universal in areas like the South, the Great Plains, the rust belt (save a few holdouts in Appalachia... e.g., Pennsylvania's 12th congressional district). Apparently this something is strongest in northern Minnesota, but extends to other parts of the western midwest. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Part of it is historical - you still hear people in Wisconsin talking about the legacy of La Follette, and consider themselves "Progressives" (rather than just "Democrats") to this day. But I think you mistake the Urban/Rural divide. My understanding is that even in the upper Midwest, the urban areas will tend toward Democrats, and the rural areas tend toward Republican, for many of the reasons you state. - I can't say why the upper Midwest is a bastion of progressiveism, but I'd like to point out several differences about the region which might contribute. First, the region is heavily dominated (at least historically) by Lutherans [4] Archived 2006-06-30 at the Wayback Machine, rather than Baptists or Catholics or other more "conservative" Christian groups. This probably has an influence on their outlook. Another factor is the ethinic background of people living there. There's a high number of Scandinavians in the region [5] [6]. I don't know the core cause, but keep in mind that the Scandinavian countries tend to be the more liberal (in the sense of "Democrat-like") than other European countries. Some of that likely carried over to the immigrants. (P.S. Take all this with a grain of salt - this research had A Prairie Home Companion as a primary source.) -- 174.31.219.218 (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Haunted house

If I lived in a very old house and publicised the "fact" that it was haunted, and I was happy to rent rooms or show tourists round, would I enhance or decrease the value of the house? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it would depend on the tourists, on the location, and on the spin you gave the haunting. I know of a bed and breakfast in Gettysburg PA that features ghost stories and offers guests the opportunity of a "ghost tour" of the area with a self-described "ghost storyteller and paranormal." "Many psychics," her site claims, "have reported seeing soldiers following her and standing at attention around her group." (It doesn't say whether the spectral spectators were laughing or simply waiting for their cut.) --- OtherDave (talk) 10:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My fear is that I am so succesful that, while I will rake in income, I will devalue the house when I sell it. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just stiff the buyer by not telling them. After all those people you defrauded, one more person isn't going to make any difference. 188.157.125.196 (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am a bit spooked by Stambovsky v. Ackley. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When my siblings and I put my parents' house up for sale the estate agent/real estate person asked us whether there were any murders, suicides or reported paranormal sightings connected with the property.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose being "haunted" could decrease the re-sale value of your house ... but it could also increase it... that depends on how you market it, and who you market it to. Some buyers will shy away, but others will be attracted to the idea of living in a haunted house.
Before you act, however, talk with your neighbors. What happens with one house can have an effect on neighboring property values. Even without the haunted part, living near a tourist attraction can decrease values (more strangers in the neighborhood means a greater potential for crime, etc).
Also, check your local zoning ordinances, there may be restrictions on operating your home as a business. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See stigmatized property. Googlemeister (talk) 14:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like it deserves a revisit! The freedom of religion should guarantee the right of anyone to either believe in ghosts within a house, or (such as ordinary Protestants) to disbelieve absolutely in the possibility of ghosts, as their beliefs dictate. Wnt (talk) 22:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most powerful US President

Which American president had the most personal power? I would guess Kennedy, but I may be wrong.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How do you define "personal power"? FDR cold do a lot by presidential decree during WWII. Nixon got away with all sorts of things prior to Watergate. Lincoln was practically a dictator during the Civil War. Blueboar (talk) 13:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I suggested Kennedy is because his brother Robert was US Attorney-General.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:35, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest Washington. Over time, Congress has continually stripped away the power of the Executive office, so the original President would be the one with the most power. The problem is that nobody here has first-hand experience with his day-to-day policies and agendas. So, we fall back on the last 30 or so years and pick someone from that era. The only way to get a real answer is to first form a metric for measuring power and then measure every president's power by that metric. -- kainaw™ 13:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's really more the other way around: over time, Congress has ceded more power to the President and the executive administration. Washington couldn't enforce domestic laws without the help of the state governments, and couldn't conduct any business overseas other than basic diplomacy. --M@rēino 17:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FDR is a good choice, though he had a hostile Supreme Court to deal with. Nixon's party never controlled Congress during his presidency, so he's out. Mythology aside, JFK wasn't a particularly popular or effective president, and the FBI wasn't really under his control, so probably not him. Everyone before Wilson revolutionized the power of the presidency is out. The best bet might be LBJ in 1965. —Kevin Myers 13:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln appropriated an awful lot of powers during the Civil War. According to Abraham Lincoln#Assuming command for the Union in the war, "he expanded his war powers, and imposed a blockade, disbursed funds before appropriation by Congress, and suspended the writ of habeas corpus, arresting and imprisoning thousands of suspected Confederate sympathizers without warrant." Pais (talk) 13:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm curious why LBJ? Because of his sending troops without Congress approval during the Vietnam War?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution pretty much gave LBJ a blank check to do whatever he deemed necessary in Vietnam. The Democrat-controlled Congress went along willingly. That entire fiasco is an illustration of what happens when you have a one-party government - something that the American electorate hasn't entirely figured out yet. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
LBJ was a masterful legislator whose party had a lock on Congress. Few US Presidents had as much legislative wherewithal and military power at his disposal. But I guess FDR is probably the overall winner. —Kevin Myers 14:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, it matters if we are measuring absolute power or adjusting for the times. George Washington was a big man in a small government in a minor nation. He was a big fish in a small pond, while FDR was the leader of the free world. —Kevin Myers 14:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, to answer the question properly we have to determine what we mean by "personal power". Every President has wielded some degree of power, simply by being the head of the Executive branch of the US Government and Commander in Chief of the US Military. However, these powers are (to some degree) inherent in the Presidency (ie the office) not in the person of the President. As the Executive Branch grew over the years, and especially since the US became a military Super Power, the office of the President has become more "powerful". In discussing the personal power of any given President, we need to examine how each man used the power inherent in the office. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One definition of "the most personal power" might be "the ability to personally bring about, through orders, the deaths of the maximum number of humans", and the winner of that contest might be LBJ again. This graph and our Nuclear disarmament article show that the maximum US nuclear warhead count was 32,040 in 1966, which was in LBJ's term. This is clearly a very rough guess because the yields and missile accuracy changed over time, and I acknowledge that LBJ may have had more destructive power at his fingertip later in his term; or Nixon may have had more, or Ford, or Carter, or Reagan. I also acknowledge that LBJ could have caused additional deaths after expending the entire US nuclear arsenal, by ordering the US armed forces to wipe out whoever was left. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to Lincoln, FDR, and LBJ, George Washington had tremendous influence due to his great popularity and status as a national figure and Revolutionary War hero. I would also put Andrew Jackson high up on the list. Although he struggled with Congress at times, Jackson won the Bank War, carried out Indian removal despite opposition from the judiciary, and exemplified a type of populism that carried his name - Jacksonian democracy. Neutralitytalk 19:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the ones to be labeled "most powerful" could be the ones who advanced the office some way or another, several of which have been named here. If you look at the list of great, near-great, mediocre, and lousy Presidents, I think you'll find that to be a common thread. Lincoln advanced the power of the presidency and is considered a great President. His 2 or 3 predecessors basically sat out their terms and did nothing useful, hence they're ranked among the worst. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, folks with libertarian leanings have sometimes complained that the standard historical rankings of Presidents of the United States celebrates presidents who increase the power of the presidency and/or the national government, as if the increase in centralized power was an objectively good thing. Members of both parties today deplore power-grabbing by presidents of the opposite party, while supporting similar activities by their own party's president. —Kevin Myers 23:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would go with FDR, if only because of the highly unusual concentration of power in the hands of the federal Executive Branch during a major war. Think of the kinds of things FDR did: interning an entire ethnic group, building secret cities, censoring the media, rationing essential items, etc. That's beyond all FDR did to transform America in peacetime. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Although I am not an expert, I would choose from this group: Washington, Lincoln, or FDR. Washington was able to put down the Whiskey Rebellion and was immensely popular because of his leadership during the Revolutionary War, but I agree with the statement above that explains that Lincoln assumed many unusual powers during the Civil War. FDR was President for more than twelve years, and little trademarks (e.g. "fireside chats") made him better-known to average Americans than some of his predecessors had been. Also, Roosevelt was President during what was the country's largest-scale war, so he amassed some personal power while leading the war effort, if the question is meant this way. DCI2026 (talk) 01:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Was Karl Marx by marriage in line to the English throne?

So at one point, freshman year I had a econ proffesor who was a bit of a trivia buff. Anyway so this question mentioned above, no more than a few years later some up, a friend of mine did a breif googling on the subject (whether by marriage Karl Marx was in line to the throne, I believe it was ninth according to that econ proffesor I had, but then again it's been some time). So to clear this up, I figured I'd turn here. Any help to resolve this would be most appreciated. 156.33.135.235 (talk) 15:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless Karl Marx himself was descended from King William I (the Conqueror), then he couldn't possibly be in the line for the English throne. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The earliest possible ancestor is more recent than William the Conqueror. Since the Act of Settlement 1701, only Protestant descendants of Sophia of Hanover can be in line for the throne. Pais (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sophia was also a descendant of William the Conqueror. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but any descendant of his who isn't a descendant of hers is out of the line of succession. Likewise any descendant of hers who is a Roman Catholic, or married to one. Pais (talk) 17:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I follow. The purpose of that law was probably to stabilize the situation, and particularly to keep Catholics off the throne. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He married Jenny von Westphalen, whose paternal grandfather married a Jenny Wishart who was apparently a relative of the Earl of Argyll, so he might have been in line to the throne by marriage (in the sense that a whole bunch of other people who were also in line to the throne would have had to all die first). --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever Jenny's status, Karl would not acquire any place in the queue for the throne by marriage to her. So acquiring by marriage ... no. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes, sorry - if a male marries into the Royal family, he won't become king even if she becomes queen, so, no. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly... the fact that Marx married someone who might have been in the line of succession would not give him a place in the line. If we assume that his wife did have a claim, she might become Queen. However, he would not have become King. He probably would have been made Prince Consort (in the way that Prince Albert did not become King when he married Queen Victoria).
Note... there was one person who did become King of England through marriage (Philip II of Spain was made King of England when he married Queen Mary I). However, that was by her decree (with the approval of Parliament) and not by any right or linage that he had. Some may argue that William III became King due to his marriage to Mary II (ruling jointly with her while she lived, and then ruling as King on his own when Mary died), but William was quite senior in the line of succession in his own right... His Mother was the eldest daughter of Charles I ... When he was born, William was third in line, right after his uncles, Charles II and James II... he was bumped down when James had two daughters: Mary (William's future wife) and Ann ... he was bumped down again when Ann had children (and, technically, again when James II had a son by his second wife... but that birth resulted in the Glorious Revolution, and William kicked out his Father-in-law). Blueboar (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So, basically, if Jenny had become queen, Karl could have become king by her decree and with the approval of Parliament, so it is theoretically possible? I'm not the OP, here, I'm just interested. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even you could become king by royal decree and with the approval of Parliament. Don't hold your breath, though... ;-) Pais (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly - I'm a catholic. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you had the chance to reign over England, you could consider converting. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
True, and then I get to rule over the country AND wear condoms - win win, really :) --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Today no... and not at the time that Marx lived either. By then, a Queen could not simply declare her husband King, the way Bloody Mary did. In Mary's day day the King or Queen held real power, and Parliament was more of a rubber stamp. Today, the situation is reversed. Parliament is the real power in the UK, and the King or Queen only reigns (as opposed to rules) because Parliament says so. Queen Victoria wanted Albert to be made King, but Parliament said no. Parliament makes the rules now, not the Monarch. So, no, you could not become King by Royal Decree in today's world. You could only become King (or Queen) by Parliamentary Statute. Blueboar (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As for the Prince Consort thing, even that's only ever happened once, to Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert. There have been numerous other husbands of queens, including Phil the Greek, but none of them ever became Prince Consort, so that's an unlikely scenario. (Aside: Whenever I hear the name Karl Marx these days, I think of this Karl Marx, but that's probably not who the OP is talking about.) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:15, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Our article Prince consort says Prince Philip is a prince consort (lower-case p & c), though he has not been awarded the title Prince Consort (capital P & C). It also says that Henrik, Prince Consort of Denmark has been awarded the upper-case title. Pais (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We're discussing the so-called "English" throne. What happens in foreign climes is not relevant to the question. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Marx was related to Walter Benjamin and Heinrich Heine, though! --Lazer Stein (talk) 11:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Germany vs. Switzerland: conflict about flying rights

Recently I read about tensions between Germany and Switzerland and one point was about flying rights. What is meant here? Quest09 (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know specifically what you speak of, and you've not given enough details for me to track it down, but in the context of international relations, "flying rights" is a term usually referring to the nine freedoms of the air. ╟─TreasuryTag►First Secretary of State─╢ 17:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article discusses it. Aircraft heading for Zurich Airport from the north are in their descent pattern over southern Bavaria (the airport is only about 8 miles from the border). This was annoying people in Germany, who complained. The two countries didn't reach an accord, so Germany banned night flights over that part of its airspace altogether, forcing the planes heading for Zurich to fly over expensive neighbourhoods in the city instead. That article is five years old, so I don't know the current situation. If it persisted for a while (and particularly if it persists still) the Zurich Airport article would benefit from a mention of it. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 17:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Baden-Württemberg, not Bavaria. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]
The issue is still up-to-date. As said above, the Zurich airport is close to Germany, therefore, Germany feels entitle to enforce house rules on flights, due to noise pollution. Apparently, it is a big deal for both parties.

For a German WK about the conflict: [[7]]. For an English article about it: [[8]]. Wikiweek (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Method of loci

Hello all. I recently asked a question about a speech I have to memorize, and I received a very helpful answer that I might use the classic method of loci. However, the speech I have to give is on the value of ambition, and is kind of abstract (for example, how does one visualize the concept of a "campaign promise"?) Any tips on how to apply the method of loci to more abstract ideas? Thanks. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 18:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The method of loci doesn't require any real connection to the words you need to memorize, it just has to make sense to you. Maybe you visuallize a signed contract to represent a "promise", so when you walk through your "memory garden" (or whatever particulars you set up for your Method of Loci "walk"), and you pick up a signed piece of paper, that's supposed to be the "promise". It doesn't matter what you choose. You could choose an apple to represent the campaign promise, if that worked for you as well. It just has to make sense to you... --Jayron32 18:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the appropriate locus, you could place George H. W. Bush's head in a jar (a la Futurama), repeating over and over "Read my lips: no new taxes." (It has often been recommended that the images used in a "memory palace" be as striking as possible so that they stick in the memory.) Deor (talk) 19:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An alternate mnemonic system is the set of concrete words which rhyme with counting numbers: "One is a bun, two is a shoe, three is a tree, four is a door, five is a hive, six is sticks, seven is heaven, eight is a gate, nine is a lion, ten is a hen." These images are usually easy to associate with a thing in a memorable image, and are quickly learned by a few repetitions. If an abstract term like "campaign promise" is to be remembered for the ninth point in the speech, picture a lion running around in "Camp Pain" biting the campers painfully, while promising to stop. If point number six was George Bush's line "read my lips," you could picture him with sticks stuck through piercings in his lips. The benefit of number cues is that you are guaranteed to at least remember the numbers in order, and the hook which rhymes with the number. Any speech with more than ten main points is probably going to bore the audience to sleep, anyway. Edison (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Method of Loci is bullshit. You just need to visualize the things, you don't have to put them anywhere. You can practice like this: open any news article, read a sentence or two out loud, and then try to repeat it without looking. If you don't visualize the things actively as you hear them, you can not repeat more than 15-20 words verbatim. With a little visualization practice, you can get up to 25-28, and once you really learn to visualize what you're hearing as you're reading it, it's easily 30-35 words. If you get to that stage, you can just read your own text while visualizing it actively. Just practice on any material you want, and count the words, until you can do 35 at a time. 79.122.2.135 (talk) 23:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its only bullshit if it doesn't work for you. It may come as an amazing shock to you, but there are these things in the world called "other people" and sometimes, these other people are "different" from you. It doesn't make them wrong or incorrect. And it doesn't make it bullshit if their memory tricks work for them. It also isn't wrong if it doesn't work for you. Not being exactly identical is OK... --Jayron32 01:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


April 28

what is a stock "target price"?

what is a "target price", what does it mean? Does it mean "what it will be exactly 12 months from now" or "what it will be exactly one month from now" or "what it really should be now" or what?

Now I have a bizarre question. If all the firms like J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs, issue a price target of "100" when the stock is trading at 50 now, but a call option with a strike price of 60 for 18 months from now is only priced at 20 (the premium), then does that mean that the "market disagrees with Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan"? Because you can buy at 20, hold for 12 months, and the stock is at 100, meaning you're $40 in the money, i.e. 200% of what you paid, plus there is time value for the next six months? How should I interpret an agreement from all the firms like Sachs and J.P. Morgan and my own analysis for target of 100, and reconcile that with the options market valuing a call option for 60 that expires 18 months from now at just $20 premium??

Is my interpretation that this means the market grossly disagrees with J.P. MOrgan, Goldman Sachs, and my own analysis, correct? (Since otherwise, it would not give someone a 200% ROI, it would price the premium on the option much higher). Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.2.135 (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially, it's the price an analyst thinks a stock should reach at a certain time. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's how I would interpret the option price, yes. I would also note that if J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs were so damn sure about that target price, then they, and the clients whose money they manage, would have bought those options (and the stock itself) so much that the price would have risen, such that there was no "gross" disparity between the current price and the eventual target. Note that these firms are not to be trusted with "target prices". The underwriter of any IPO, for example, always claims some fancifully sky-high "target price", which differs a lot from the evaluations of any disinterested financial firms. Also I don't think that these firms often put a date on their "target" prices. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GK Question

which country/province contains a large group of historic cities and also one of World's major rivers passing through it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.111.228.20 (talk) 06:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are lots of countries that fit this description. Germany, Russia, China, and the U.S. all spring to mind, and the list doesn't stop there. —Angr (talk) 06:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on what "major river" means, take a look at List of rivers by discharge. So, major rivers with many historic cities? Ganges, Yangtze, Brahmaputra, Mekong, Pearl, Saint Lawrence, Volga, Danube, Indus, Ghaghara, Yamuna, Nile, Yellow, Rhine, Rhone, Po... any of these would satisfy the question. Take your pick. Pfly (talk) 09:17, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That GK site has some of the worst defined questions. Googlemeister (talk) 13:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know which site it is, so we can avoid it? – b_jonas 13:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What gigs in life will force me to mature faster?

So my case manager assumes that "if you haven't matured enough by 24, then you'll never mature."

I counterpointed him with, "I'm sure some of Edison's colleagues once told him that after 500 tries, if he couldn't make a working lightbulb by now, he will never make one. But he did, 9,500 more tries later."

Even though I'm disqualified from military service just because of current medication, I asked him how much faster anyone in my situation would mature. He said "the military would make or break you." Some wouldn't even be in combat before just the military life compounds mental health issues.

So with that option out, what could be some ways to mature faster? Thanks. --129.130.99.8 (talk) 10:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you're disqualified from military service, maybe you can join some paramilitary organization like the police, fire department, or Boy Scouts. Pais (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure the mental health would disqualify me from the police. Fire Dept. - there may be a little better possibility. Boy scouts - isn't that a now or never for 17 and under? --129.130.99.8 (talk) 11:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing that mention of Boy Scouts means that you're in the USA. (Most of the rest of the world now has just Scouts, including girls at all levels.) But adult leaders are always welcome in Scouting in my country, and training is excellent. I suspect the same is true of America. HiLo48 (talk) 11:14, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Paramilitary" wouldn't be the first word that would spring to mind if you saw my Scouts trying to march! Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ha ha. Have to agree with that for my mob too. It's definitely not what they're good at! HiLo48 (talk) 11:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The IP address is assigned to a location in the U.S., so I assumed the OP is in the U.S. and answered accordingly. Another option is the Militia movement; if you have mental health issues, you'll fit right in. In some of them, it may even be a prerequisite. Pais (talk) 11:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Jokes aside, if you have mental health issues, please consider not to hold a weapon on your hand. A much better attitude could be to go with something which could build you up, like outdoor sports or team sports. 80.58.205.34 (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would just suggest getting out there and volunteering in lots of places, especially with other adults. Get exposed to lots of different people's approach to life, and be open minded about accepting some of the ideas and approaches involved. HiLo48 (talk) 11:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Scouting UK also do "Network Scouts" for 18-25 year olds.. though there might not be a group in every area. --Errant (chat!) 11:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if you're into motorcycles at all, but if you are, you might think about joining a Biker gang. Some of them are pretty regimented, much like the military. There are some criminal ones, but others do a lot of charity work and generally obey the law. Qrsdogg (talk) 14:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My late father-in-law used to tell me "Growing older is mandatory - growing up is optional". Just something to bear in mind when people tell you you're being unnecessarily childish! --TammyMoet (talk) 12:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
129.130.99.8—what do you mean by "mature"? We may be applying different definitions in our different responses. Bus stop (talk) 12:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When I thought further about the conversation the OP had had, many questions came up. What definition of "maturity" was the manager using? What behaviours did he believe displayed "maturity"? Is the manager's definition a generally accepted one, or is it peculiar to his/her culture/religion? I understand the OP may not in a position to challenge said manager, but if it were me in that situation, I definitely would! --TammyMoet (talk) 14:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would also question the manager's perspective. I was not very mature, by some measures, at age 24, but I think most people would find me fairly mature now at more than twice that age. I have not done military service. Maturation does not stop at age 24. Since I know that the manager is wrong from my own experience, I don't have much respect for his point of view. However, if you have to work with this person, ask him to list qualities that he associates with maturity, mention that you are disqualified for military service, and ask him to suggest other ways you might develop those qualities. If his suggestions all involve the risk of bodily harm, as military service does, then I question whether this person has your best interests at heart. Could you consider going to his superior with that information and requesting assignment to a different manager? Marco polo (talk) 15:14, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would be interested to know if the OP has ever held a job. That is often a good first step in gaining maturity. Part of being a mature person is accepting that there are things in life that you have to do, even though you might not want to do them (even a relatively simple thing like getting up each morning and showing up for work on time can aid in maturity). Blueboar (talk) 15:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of points:
Your case manager is wrong. people can mature at any point in their life, and there's no 'state of maturity' to reach. it's an ongoing process that continues over your life.
'Maturing' is a complex phenomenon. Basically 'maturing' means finding better, more satisfying ways of existing in the world that's given to you. Often times the next step in maturity is completely incomprehensible - you cannot make sense of it until you've taken the step; and once you've taken the step, you have a had time making sense of the way you thought before. Most people do not take a step up in maturity until they are dissatisfied and uncomfortable with their current state of existence (part of the reason why the rich and powerful in the world tend to be notably immature).
Life experience is good. having to face different facets of life forces you to adapt to new situations, and the act of adapting opens the door to a growth in maturity. It's not sufficient - a lot of times people will adapt to new situations by trying to turn them into old situations, so that they can continue with the same way of existence they've always had - but it does open the door to the possibility. Best thing you can do is to actively avoid trying to force things back into your comfort zone. If you feel unsettled by a situation, be humble and allow yourself to be unsettled by it; accept that you're not quite sure what the problem is and can't figure out how to solve it. If you do that, your own mind will naturally and quietly work on the problem until it figures out a way to make the unsettledness go away, and that will likely be a moment of maturing.
Most of all, just have a little faith in yourself. it will happen naturally if you let it, there's no need to force it. --Ludwigs2 17:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All options to work without leaving my apartment?

I hope to find a job that doesn't require me to leave my apartment, nor has a fixed schedule on which to attend. (I'd have trouble with morning commutes especially in rush hour traffic. Also, I'm not a morning person.)

Therefore, I'd like jobs that only have a due date, but doesn't require me to be at it during fixed times every day, nor go anywhere to do it. Preferably something that I can submit online.

What jobs are they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.130.99.8 (talk • contribs) 11:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See our articles telecommuting and freelancer. As you probably know, very few companies are comfortable with actual employees who work exclusively at home, with the notable exception of, as the telecommuting article states, call center employees. Quite a few more companies are comfortable working with independent contractors who can work on their own schedule on their own, as the freelancer article discusses. The disadvantage of the latter is the need to continuously scramble to line up the next job while you're working on the current one. Being a freelancer, you will not realize the goal of never leaving your apartment (if that is really a goal). People want to meet, in person, the people they do business with. After that first meeting, some managers will be comfortable with never seeing you again and only interacting with you for the remainder of the project via phone, e-mail, and even IM; but you should expect many managers will want to meet with you regularly, at least when a milestone delivery is due. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You may like to work as a telephone answering service. OK so you might have to meet those who hire you to do this, but you would otherwise be working at home, answering calls for small businesses who can't afford to hire staff. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Phone sex worker. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Most employers have a simple expectation that you will show up and do your work for the number of hours specified in your employment contract. Assuming you are looking for a reasonably professional type of job and depending on the employer, you are usually expected to show up some time in the morning (usually before 10am) so that you can interact with your work colleagues. Once you have been there for a while, you might be able to discuss working from home on some occasions. Astronaut (talk) 11:02, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever you do, watch out for fraudulent work-at-home schemes. —Angr (talk) 11:06, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And about online stock trading...

I would like to start on trading starter tech stocks. What stock trading software can I download (hopefully, for free?) that has the lowest cost-per-trade and would allow me to buy and sell these stocks fast? (e-trade, ameritrade, datek, etc.)

I was told not to put all eggs in one basket, so of course I'll diversify by buying stocks from 10 separate starter tech companies at once. (Hopefully the cost-per-trade will remain the same, despite whether I buy from one company, ten, or one hundred. Right?)

PS: Where are some great YouTube lecture videos that gives primers on how to trade stocks online? (As well as specifically about penny stocks?) If the lectures come from the Ivies, then that could be a plus.

Thanks in advance, --129.130.99.8 (talk) 11:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why would Ivy League lectures be of any value? Can they even predict the future? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.34 (talk) 15:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any of the discount brokerages (Scottrade, E-Trade, etc.) let you trade online for a low commission. They also provide analysis software for free, so long as you have an account. In general, each trade of a different stock is a different commission, although you can trade 1 or 1,000 shares for the same commission. Given the high volume of trading necessary to make money(not to mention the volatility of penny stocks), this is a losing game unless you have thousands (preferably tens of thousands) of dollars in risk capital. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.186.80.1 (talk) 17:56, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note that although it seems very exciting, most at-home day traders end up losing all their money.[citation needed] Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? What makes you say that? Please back that up with a source or some other reputable link. Thanks! --70.179.169.115 (talk) 11:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Efficient-market hypothesis. Unless perhaps you have the equivalent of PhD in something like algorithmic trading and the resources of a major bank, then you may as well gamble your money at a casino. The "rake" of the stock market in trading fees is I guess more than that of a casino, so you would be worse off. A lot of people will be happy to sell you various stuff such as software and shares. I suggest studying the subject for a few months and trying simulated trades (remembering to take into account transaction charges and real-life delays) before spending any money. 92.15.8.107 (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Admiral Sir William Penn

It is common knowledge/folklore that William Penn, Quaker & founder of Pennsylvania colony, received his grant for land in the New World from Charles II to settle a 'debt" the crown owed his father, Admiral Sir William Penn? Can anyone provide details on what occasioned the debt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.86.71 (talk) 12:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to William Penn (Royal Navy officer), he commanded the ship which brought Charles II back to England from the Continent. Perhaps the "debt" was not a financial one, but rather one of gratitude for his role in the Restoration. It also seems that he as a bit of a "double agent" during the Commonwealth period, serving actively in the Commonwealth Navy, while remaining in "communication" with expatriate Royalists. --Jayron32 13:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, the debt was a financial one. Apparently Admiral Penn was owed £16,000, consisting of backpay, money expended on supplying the navy, and five years' interest on the unpaid debt. --Antiquary (talk) 19:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

what's a 501?

I know what a 401k is, but what's a 501? 94.27.199.222 (talk) 13:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean a 501(c)? Pais (talk) 13:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A 501(c) is a tax-exempt organization in America. If that's not what you were thinking of, here are some other uses of 501. BurtAlert (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
More specifically they're references to the section of the Internal Revenue Code that define them. Shadowjams (talk) 20:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guevara resources

Please suggest some books and journal articles that explore the negative/brutal side of Che Guevara. --Dcrucalu (talk) 13:45, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Che_Guevara#References is a good start. I'm sure you can peruse those and find ones with the perspective you are looking for. --Jayron32 13:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just did a quick Amazon search and found Exposing the Real Che Guevara: And the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him by Humberto Fontova. From the title and the description it seems pretty critical. BurtAlert (talk) 13:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have an article about Humberto Fontova which covers that book and another he's written on the same subject. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 14:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Middletons as middle class

Will Brits stop seeing the Middletons as middle class after the wedding? It's surely amusing that they are seen as middle class despise their millions and the top education of their children. 80.58.205.34 (talk) 16:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will they suddenly gain noble ancestors after the wedding? Certainly, Kate and William's children will no longer be of the middle class, but under the usual British understanding of class, its not a thing thats solely tied to wealth. People who get very rich doing very middle class things didn't instantly become "upper class". Likewise, there have been very poor noble families who wouldn't be considered not nobility merely because they had no money... --Jayron32 16:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Noble families never - ever refer to themselves as poor. Financially distressed perhaps, but never poor ! After all, the poor live in poverty by choice, where as the nobility are short of liquidity due to misfortunes being forced upon them. Usually blamed on the evil deeds of others which separates them from Dieu et mon droit and the cash that goes with it. --Aspro (talk) 16:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're spot on about money and class being, especially these days, quite separate things. The OP does hint at something that's been annoying me for a while. The press have been building this up as the tale of the ordinary girl that became a princess, which is total nonsense. Both of her parents are business proprietor. Her dad's side of the family includes pilots, bank managers, and solicitors ([9]). And that was back before all of the ambulance chasers that we have today; when going into law, in fact just going to university, really was very prestigious. Fair enough, her mother's side of the family is ordinary; but she's far from being an ordinary girl. — Fly by Night (talk) 17:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your IP address suggests that you are in Spain. Understand that the British have a different concept of class than some other societies. See Social structure of the United Kingdom. Marco polo (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So going by that article... we will have to wait to see if a certain person calls herself Princess Billy of Cymru before we know for sure if she's is U or non-U. Or should that be 'ov' Cymru?--Aspro (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you define class purely in economic terms, the Middletons probably rate as "Upper" (or at least Upper-Middle)... but in a land like England, where historically class was defined in terms of Nobility, Squirearchy, Merchants and Peasants, things are a bit more complicated. Blueboar (talk) 18:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK, working class and middle class are determined largely by how you live your life, just as in the US; upper class, however, is determined by your family. You can become upper class by marrying into the upper class, so I think Kate could easily be considered upper class after the wedding. In the past, the rest of her family might have been able to ride into the upper classes on her coattails, but I don't think that kind of thing happens much any more (it's not like there's an active royal court that you can get your family positions in). --Tango (talk) 20:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
…because not many people in Britain, besides the tourists, give a damn. — Fly by Night (talk) 22:13, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Class is commonly used to refer to two different yet related complexes: social hierarchies of cultural status; and, social relationship to production. Both the Middletons and Windsors extract surplus value from the UKGBNI working class, and from the international working class, through their ownership of capital or control of apparatus that is effectively equivalent to the ownership of capital in value terms (the UKGBNI parliament). They are both "bourgeois". However, in terms of the social hierarchy of cultural status their positions are determined differently, with reference to survivals of pre 19th century culture mainly through inheritance. It is possible to be "bourgeois and middle class" "bourgeois and noble / upper class" and "bourgeois and working class". It kind of depends on why you're conducting a class analysis. British royalty has long accepted the commercial basis of their state's power. And this is yet another stitch up wedding to cement the British bourgeoisie's hegemony over social discourse. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Or, you know, they could actually love each other.--Britannicus (talk) 23:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You know, the fact that he seems to be a genuinely nice chap who hasn't fucked around his girlfriend and genuinely wants to marry her means that I've excluded him from my opinion that a Cromwellian solution is appropriate for the house of Windsor. Is this not a kind of love? Fifelfoo (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"...who hasn't fucked around his girlfriend ..." That's not the impression I got. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]
This is a specimen of British slang that I'm not sure I understand, but I think it means that he hasn't cheated on his girlfriend, and the article you linked gives no evidence that he has. Marco polo (talk) 14:04, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. It means to mess someone around. Cheating on them would count, but so would numerous other things. --Tango (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That works no matter how you parse it: fucked around his girlfriend and fucked around his girlfriend. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]

Ah, working collar folks who started their own business, made a success of it, and were able to send their daughter to an exclusive school. Hardly qualifies them as upper crust. "British bourgeousie's hegemony over social discourse"? A bit of a left turn, no pun intended. No maybe it was. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You obviously didn't take the time to read my first post, nor follow the link to her family tree. Do you call pilots, bank mangers and solicitors "working collar folks"? Having three generations of solicitors starting in the 1800's is far from being "working collar". As little time ago as the 1950's, a university education was a really big deal, reserved for the privileged few. — Fly by Night (talk) 22:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've never heard the expression "working collar" before. Is it a portmanteau of "working class" and "blue collar"? —Angr (talk) 08:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fly by Night could be right here: isn't it much more pleasant to believe that Kate is from an ordinary middle-class family and that your daughter could be the next one who's married by a royalty? – b_jonas 13:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

cause of domestic terrorism

OP indef'd
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Where can I find data to expose State Bar or State ignored and thus sanctioned attorney misconduct, dishonesty, misdoings, theft, etc. as a cause of domestic terrorism? --Inning (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Lawyers cause domestic terrorism? BurtAlert (talk) 19:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It seems unlikely you will be able to find such data... --Tango (talk) 20:20, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the question either. Where are we talking about? An example may help. HiLo48 (talk) 20:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sound's like you have a beef with some particular indevidual lawyer. The BBB. (Better Business Bureau) keeps a record of complaints/legal actions that are lodged with it's organisation. May or may not help. The local chapter should be in your tel. directory.190.56.107.254 (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)190.56.107.254 (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this link will enlighten you as to loopholes in the law often taken advantage of by attorney's due to their in-depth rather than casual knowledge of the law. When they are caught and the system plays dumb because attorney's are one of its own and the offended party is left with no lawful means of resolution... a few years later perhaps and two skyscrapers accidentally get in the way of a couple of planes in which foreign tourists have taken control in order to get a better view of New York from the air. --Inning (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What "legal loophole" do you think the 9/11 attackers exploited? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The 9/11 attackers were on a tourist visa, but they pursued all sort of activities, like taking flying lessons, kidnapping planes and flying them into buildings. I'm sure tourist to the US are not allowed to do that. Quest09 (talk) 14:59, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Guys... don't feed him or her. User:Inning is the same guy who shows up every few months with rambling, incoherent questions about polychotomous keys, lawyers as conspiracies, etc. I don't know what his or her issue is, but he/she doesn't seem to benefit from engagement. He/she comes in with an incoherent agenda, he/she leaves with an incoherent agenda, no matter what transpires between. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it seemed familiar. I am curious to know, though, how anyone could possibly jump from that British story (which sounds like it had an idiot for a judge, but that's another matter), to 9/11. But I guess if you're a looney, anything can "make sense". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:18, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What judge? The story says the Crown Prosecution Service never brought any charges against the man, so there wouldn't have been a judge involved. --Tango (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I was about to say. What the story comes down to is that there's no law in England and Wales against taking advantage of stupid people. Pais (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would say "naive children" rather than "stupid people". --Tango (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's certainly disturbing to know that this guy was not committing a crime. Quest09 (talk) 15:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Naive children", "stupid people"; tomayto, tomahto. Couldn't they have charged him with fraud for claiming they were being entered in a competition with a 50-pound prize when they weren't? Pais (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's lying, but it isn't fraud. For fraud, you have to gain something or cause the victim to lose something of monetary value. That doesn't apply in this case. --Tango (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Inning: are you saying that people being treated unfairly could commit a terrorist act? Quest09 (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Essentially, yes. Lawyers only have to comply with the letter of the law and not the principle or the spirit of the law to claim they have done nothing wrong since wrong is defined as failing to comply with the law. BTW Mr. 98 and Baseball Bugs, etc. you need to grow up and stop acting like street thugs or village idiots until you can claim without error that you founded the Wikipedia. --Inning (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The same is true of everyone. Lawyers can defend themselves by pointing out that they haven't violated the letter of the law while the rest of us have to hire a lawyer to defend us like that, but the end result is the same. I don't see how that is a cause of terrorism, though... --Tango (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, Mr. Inning has now been retired. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:21, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Post-nomial letters and the law

In the UK, is the use of post-nomial letters regulated in any way? As in, if I go round referring to myself as Bill Bloggs MA even though I don't have a degree, is that itself illegal? What about Bill Bloggs CBE? Or Bill Bloggs FRSA? (Not a request for legal advice because I don't want to do these things – my name isn't even Bill! – but as a matter of interest.) ╟─TreasuryTag►presiding officer─╢ 22:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding post-nominals arising from military decorations (e.g. VC): Section 197 of the Army Act of 1955 made it a criminal offense if someone "falsely represents himself to be a person who is or has been entitled to use or wear any suchdecoration". Whether simply having VC on your business card would be sufficient to trigger that I don't know, but on the face of it, it might have been. Apparently this provision was altered in the Armed Forces Act 2006, but as it's massive I can't find what that change was. 87.115.52.162 (talk) 22:45, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In Britain you are normally free to use any name you like as long as you are not doing so for fraudulent purposes. I don't see why the post-nominal part shouldn't be the same (unless it is specifically prohibited in particular cases). But perhaps if you used an honour or qualification you weren't entitled to, you might have to work harder to establish that this wasn't for fraudulent purposes. --ColinFine (talk) 23:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In Britain you are normally free to use any name you like ... Except Princess Catherine. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's her title, but there's nothing to stop her from calling herself Kate. Or Gertrude, for that matter, if she's of a mind to. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Mitch's point is that Princess Catherine is not her title, even though William asked for it to be. Pais (talk) 14:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure she could call herself that anyway. At no small risk of causing trouble. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Pretending to have a degree you don't really have for personal gain (eg. to get a job) would be fraud. I don't think there is any specific law about post-nominal letters, though. --Tango (talk) 12:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you decided to call yourself John Smith, M.D., you could probably get away with it if you merely wanted to work at McDonald's. If you opened a business as a physician, that could cause some problems. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you opened a business as a physician without actually being a medical doctor, you'd be in problem no matter what name you used. – b_jonas 13:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Natural law and anti-slavery in antiquity

I am trying to find instances of anti-slavery concepts and thoughts in history from about 1600 back. I would really like to find an example where someone put 2 and 2 together and said that man by nature (or perhaps by God) has the right to life and liberty and that taking these rights from a man without due cause would be immoral and unjust. The Stoic view just seems like they were trying to rationalize doing what they knew to be wrong. Can anybody point me in the right direction? --65.195.232.118 (talk) 22:12, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is way back there. B.C. but I believe Plato wrote some stuff about self-determination and freedom/liberty.190.56.107.254 (talk) 23:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Lollard medieval priest John Ball was a major organizer of the Peasants' Revolt against the English feudal system - which placed the serfs at the very bottom, with few rights - in 1381. The rebellion became very bloody - the Lord Treasurer was killed, the Tower of London was stormed, as was the home of the king's uncle - but among Ball's quotes was this statement, "From the beginning all men by nature were created alike... ." DCI2026 (talk) 01:08, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our article on Abolitionism has examples going back to the early 16th century, including the New Laws of 1542 which banned slavery in Spanish New World. (In 1545, the laws were repealed, but still, there were there for a time...) --Mr.98 (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, and you don't need a philosopher to know that oppressed people want to be free. (You do need a philosopher to explain how in fact people are better off under oppression.) See Spartacus. And certainly the teachings of Jesus Christ are against slavery if they're against anything (even without a specific reference to the matter).--Rallette (talk) 06:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just a comment on the original statement that slave-holding societies should have figured out that "man by nature (or perhaps by God) has the right to life and liberty and that taking these rights from a man without due cause would be immoral and unjust": I think many people in ancient societies did hold this view. Unlike us, however, they thought that if someone was captured as a prisoner of war, or found guilty of a particularly heinous crime, then that would (in their societies) constitute "due cause" for taking them into slavery (see "Slavery#Ancient"). For them slavery was just as natural a punishment as throwing felons in jail is for us. Gabbe (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Rallette: The Bible and slavery seems to imply that both the Old and New Testaments are pretty vague on the issue of slavery. It actually does take considerable work to consider human beings who are less well off than you, who are less "civilized" than you, who are a different color than you, etc., are actually accorded the same rights as you. The idea that this is self-evident (rather than the result of an ongoing process of Enlightenment, which is hardly complete) is belied by the historical record. There is ample evidence that people normalize received privilege quite easily. They continue to do so to this day to lesser degrees than slavery. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You won't find much. Concepts of equality in the Ancient world were all 'in group' equality: You'll find liberal democratic leanings in Greek thought, Roman thought, even ancient Hebrew (pre-Judges) thought, but only with respect to Greeks, Romans, and Hebrews. Outsiders viewed as non-people, to be dealt with as needed. Universalistic egalitarian principles really began with Christian monotheism, and even that took a thousand years before it shifted from equality in God's eyes to equality in man's eyes (beginning with Protestant secularism, I'd guess). You'll have best luck with Roman philosophers (Maybe Augustine?), or by shifting to non-European contexts (some forms of Hindu and Buddhist thought are broadly egalitarian). --Ludwigs2 15:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Our article Slavery in Britain and Ireland quotes Anselm of Canterbury at the Council of London (1102); ""Let no one hereafter presume to engage in that nefarious trade in which hitherto in England men were usually sold like brute animals.". This is thought to have carried moral rather than legal force. A reported quote from an English court case in 1569 over a slave imported from Russia; "that England was too pure an air for a slave to breathe in." The slave was freed. More details at Slavery at common law. Alansplodge (talk) 16:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Still, these sentiments were not meant to be universal either, but explicitly confined to either a geographical locality (England) or perhaps Christians in general. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

William Francis Ainsworth and the Battle of Nasib

The article about William Francis Ainsworth (cousin of the novelist William Harrison Ainsworth) in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states:

Ainsworth's next venture, the Kurdistan expedition, was altogether less successful. The Royal Geographical Society, one of the supporters of the Euphrates expedition, and the Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge undertook an expedition to the survivors of the Nestorian church to purchase or transcribe ancient manuscripts in their possession. An ulterior motive was to map and explore remote areas which were politically sensitive and possibly contained mineral deposits. Ainsworth was put in charge and went to Mesopotamia, through Asia Minor, the passes of the Taurus Mountains, and northern Syria, where he was arrested as he observed the battle of Nasib in 1839. Although the British ambassador secured his release, his maps and plans were confiscated and their irrelevance to the Nestorian church made public the real motives of the expedition. Ainsworth returned via the Kurdistan Mountains and Lake Orumiyyeh in Persia, continuing through Armenia and reaching Constantinople late in 1840.

Does anyone have more information on the battle of Nasib in 1839? I have been unable to find anything by googleing. Thanks. P. S. Burton (talk) 22:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think I found it, Battle of Nezib. P. S. Burton (talk) 23:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


April 29

Round homes

Well, it's a hotel.

In recent years, have any round vacation homes (they look a bit like silos, for example the "Monte-Silo" house in Utah) been built, particularly in the Upper Midwest? Is there any information about these homes online or on Wikipedia? DCI2026 (talk) 00:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have not found any articles or categories regarding round dwellings on Wikipedia, though browsing around articles related to silos yielded the Quaker Square article. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Upper Midwest (almost) and recent (geologically speaking)
Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Early Breton dynasty?

I have done genealogical research lately and have discovered that some ancestors were early Breton monarchs. This seems to be during a period - roughly the early "Dark" Ages - when Brittany evolved from a Celtic tribal region and became a land divided into principalities like "Domnonee" and "Cornouaille." Among these supposed monarch-ancestors is a "Prince Hoel-Vychan II of Cornouaille", who lived in the sixth century, and a Hoel III, who had a female descendant who married into a Celtic (Welsh?) family. To make matters more complicated, this Welsh family contained rulers of the long-gone kingdom of Pomys - Merfyn Frych is one of these Pomys rulers. DCI2026 (talk) 00:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's List of rulers of Brittany only mentions a Hoel II of Brittany, who was also Hoel V of Cornouaille, an earlier Hoel would have been Hoel III of Cornouialle then. I don't find either of your names at the French Wikipedia, which has a "List of kings and counts of Cornouialle" here: [10] and a "List of Princes of Armorican Dumnonee" here: [11] and a "List of Sovereigns of Vannetais" here: [12]; the three main regions of Brittany being Cornouaille, Dumnonee, and Vannetais. However, I did find at the "List of Armorican Chiefs" here: [13], a "Hoel III" who is listed as a "Roi" or king, sadly the redlink means that the French Wikipedia has no info on him either. I see no information on any Hoel-Vychan II on any of these lists, however. As far as the Welsh kingdom, I assume you mean Powys and not Pomys. Kingdom of Powys mentions Merfyn Frych. That article has a rather complete list of the Kings of Powys, so you may find more luck there than researching the Breton lines. --Jayron32 03:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What is the question here? Brittany was settled by people from Wales and south west Britain (see map) - the areas of Cornouaille and Dumnonée in Brittany derive their names from Cornwall and Devon (Dumnonia). At that point in time, Wales (including Powys), Devon, Cornwall and Brittany were part of one ("Celtic") cultural whole, sharing a (broadly) common language. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for replying - both answers have helped. DCI2026 (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That was very fortuitous, DCI2026. In future, could you please actually ask a question, so that it's clear exactly what it is you're wanting to know. Your statement could have led to many different questions. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tales Of Hoffman

1951 Film Production of "Tales Of Hoffman"

When I saw this film in 1952, I believe I recall a beautiful scene depicting a ballerina dancing upon lilly pads.

Today when I review scenes of this movie on the computer I cannot find the above scene. Do you know if this scence was subsequently edited from the original film? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.69.203 (talk) 03:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is. The BFI synopsis says it takes place during the prologue. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perception of healthiness of country vs. Perception of one's own situation

Some years ago I read about how the perception of a people of the healthiness its own country vs. how individuals perceive their own state differs vastly by country, but is in direct correlation to the media of the country. For example: in the US, IIRC, 40% more people were willing to say they were doing well than were willing to say the country was doing well: this gave the US a number of -40, which was the lowest of any country (but very comparable to other western nations). The worst offender was Zimbabwe, which had a number something like +30/40, and which has a completely non-free press. Russia was about +11, China was in the negative but not as much as the US, etc.

There is actually an official term for this. Does any of you know what it is? I'm trying to find more stats about it. 68.232.119.30 (talk) 10:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation bias came to mind, but I'm not so sure that's it. People like to think that they have control of their own situation, while they typically can't control the larger world, so they might be more apprehensive about it. Yellow journalism feeds into this. The Hearst papers a century ago and more were sensationalistic. Nowadays you might call it the CNN / Fox News syndrome. Negative things often make for interesting news subjects, but they can also make people think that "things are worse than they really are." That complaint about the media has been around for a long time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's also the addage "All politics is local", meaning of course that regardless of what your opinion is of how the world is going; how your immediate situation is going has a greater impact on your political decisions. --Jayron32 12:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's a standard feature of political poll results in the U.S. in recent decades that people have a very negative view of congress overall, but are on average moderately satisfied with their own individual local congressman... AnonMoos (talk) 00:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which is probably one reason why discussion of congressional term limits has gone nowhere. Many would like other states terms limited, but not their own. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Congressional term limits were being implemented until they were ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1995 in U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton. It was a close 5-4 decision, with Kennedy joining the liberals to kill term limits. Unless another case comes along to reverse this ruling, it would take a constitutional amendment to implement term limits, which is always a difficult process. —Kevin Myers 07:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

god vs satan

who is more powerful? who will win if there is a conflict between them? --Satanist God (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, given that in most religions God is omnipotent, I think it's fair to say that that trumps Satan. The question you should be asking is, who'd win in a fight between Satan and a dinosaur? ╟─TreasuryTag►stannator─╢ 13:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You kind of need to give us a theological context; there is no shared belief about what god is and what Satan is. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In a battle of wills, Satan would win. God is merely the indifferent Creator, while Satan is Lord and Ruler of the Earth. Satanism celebrates Man's link to nature, and enjoyment of the earth's bounty and indulgence of the senses. God is about denial, sacrifice and putting the intersts of others before one's own. Those things go against nature.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In a battle of wills, Satan would win. God is merely the indifferent Creator, while Satan is Lord and Ruler of the Earth. Satanism celebrates Man's link to nature, and enjoyment of the earth's bounty and indulgence of the senses. God is about denial, sacrifice and putting the intersts of others before one's own. Those things go against nature. [citation needed] ╟─TreasuryTag►Counsellor of State─╢ 14:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"The God of this world" is one of the epithets that the Bible gives to Satan. See these notes and commentary on John 12:31, for example. Gabbe (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ask Harry Hill to sort it out. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fifelfoo is correct. It depends on how God is conceived. Those who believe that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and transcendent would take one of the following two positions: 1) God is ominipotent, omnipresent, and transcendent, and Satan does not have an independent existence but is merely a mental construct of those who fail to fully realize or understand God's transcendence and presence; or 2) God is ominipotent, omnipresent, and transcendent, and therefore present in Satan as well. Marco polo (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good summary. The Christian view would be that God cannot be defeated. Satan is not a god, merely a fallen angel. Whatever Satan's powers are, they are only there because God gave them to him. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible best explains what Satan represents I used to own a copy, but I left it behind in the Texas Bible-belt--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it best explains what Anton LaVey thought Satan represents. Pais (talk) 16:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then one can also read Dante, Milton, Aleister Crowley, Blatty. The beat goes on.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See http://www.multilingualbible.com/romans/16-20.htm.
—Wavelength (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Biblical Hebrew, "satan" is a word meaning "adversary" or "accuser." The only major appearance of "ha-satan" ("the satan") in the Hebrew Bible is in the Book of Job where he appears as one of a group of angels. He has the power to mess up Job's life, but he is clearly subservient to God and only uses his powers with God's permission. In much later Jewish works and in Christianity, Satan becomes the incarnation of all evil. In Christianity, he also rules hell. But according to Jewish tradition, Satan is a creation of God (like everything else) who serves the purpose of testing the piety of people. He was created by God and thus could be destroyed by God if God wanted to. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:57, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like Satan evolved from a mere angel to a Christianized version of Hades, the Greek god of the underworld. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:03, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
St Michael, Coventry Cathedral
OP -- The conception of evil as practically co-equal or equipotent to good is much more characteristic of Persian religious traditions than it is of Judeo-Christian religions. In traditional Christian religious iconography it is St. Michael the Archangel (not God) who fights and conquers the devil, while Judaism doesn't really have a concept of one super-demon ruling over other demons. AnonMoos (talk) 00:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think this question has been answered definitively before. "In the struggle between good and evil, evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." -Dark Helmet, Spaceballs (1987) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.156.102 (talk) 00:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Philosophically speaking, should good triumph over evil or evil triumph over good, each would immediately cease to exist, since each depends on the other for its very definition. so there. --Ludwigs2 00:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See http://www.multilingualbible.com/revelation/20-1.htm and http://www.multilingualbible.com/revelation/20-2.htm.
—Wavelength (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're going to need to verify the existence of God and Satan, and publish some reliable data about the strength and abilities of each, before this question can be answered factually. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Within traditional Christian iconography, the question is already answered (see image). On the other hand, if the question is about entities from completely different belief systems, then even some of the geekiest geeks find questions such as whether the Star Wars Empire could defeat the Star Trek Borg (or vice versa) to be extremely pointless and tiresome... AnonMoos (talk) 16:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Continental Army, winter of 1778-1779

Where did the Continental Army spend the winter of 1778-1779? We all know about Valley Forge in Pennsylvania the previous winter. --DThomsen8 (talk) 14:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Middlebrook encampment, apparently. Pfly (talk) 17:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For security and provisioning reasons, Washington divided the army into three camps for that winter. Middlebrook was the primary encampment, where Washington had his headquarters. Troops also wintered in Danbury, Connecticut and at West Point. "I hope they will be in a more comfortable situation than they were in the preceeding Winter", he explained. —Kevin Myers 03:28, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Titular William

It seems that, as something of a wedding present, Prince William was created not just Duke of Cambridge, but also Earl of Strathearn as well as Baron Carrickfergus. Looking at each I can't help but notice that the official locality of the Duke of Cambridge is in England, that of the Earl of Strathearn in Scotland, and Baron Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland. Am I correct in surmising that this was done deliberately? Is such spreading out the honours amoungst the kingdoms of the realm commonly done? -- 174.31.219.218 (talk) 16:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not commonly, only to those who should one day become monarch of all three nations. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But yes, it is a fairly standard practice that heirs and heirs-to-be get peerages in all nations which they don't at the time on their wedding day. ╟─TreasuryTag►pikuach nefesh─╢ 17:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Among members of the Royal Family, it seems fairly common to spread the titles out among multiple Home Nations, for example Prince Philip is Duke of Edinburgh (Scotland), Earl of Merioneth (Wales), and Baron Greenwich (England), while Prince Charles is Prince of Wales, Duke of Rothesay (Scotland), Duke of Cornwall (England), Earl of Chester (England), Earl of Carrick (Scotland), Baron Renfrew (Scotland), and Lord of the Isles (Scotland). Prince Andrew (Charles' younger brother and 4th in line) is Duke of York (England), Earl of Inverness (Scotland), and Baron Killyleagh (Northern Ireland). Prince Edward (the third brother) is Earl of Wessex (England) and Viscount Severn (Wales). Interestingly, they all have titles from multiple home nations, but none has titles from all four home nations... --Jayron32 19:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
William will if he gets invested as Prince of Wales (I'm assuming that's why Wales was missed out of the titles he was given today). --Tango (talk) 20:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
None of them have ever had territorial designations from the other Commonwealth realms - e.g. Duke of Saskatchewan, Marquess of Port Moresby, Earl of Waitangi, Baron Uluru - yet the Royal Family is not just the UK's Royal Family, and William will become King of 16 nations, not just one. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's because they hate you. --Jayron32 23:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can't say I've ever felt hated by the Royal Family, either as an individual or as a citizen of my realm. Do you have a source for that rather grotesque remark, Jayron? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So which royal is the Duke of Earl? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:02, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]
Why, the Duke of Earl, of course, Jack. Ah this younger generation, no sense of history (sigh)! [Let alone wabbits who won't wikilink.] —— Shakescene (talk) 07:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My humble apologies for being far too young to catch the reference. I promise I'll try to grow up extra fast.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC) [reply]
To try to answer Jack's question, I imagine it's because Australia, Canada and NZ don't have a system of peerages and the "home" nations do. That was the one part of the British Constitution that the Dominions (as were) didn't feel the need to replicate. Probably a wise decision. Alansplodge (talk) 07:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Given the name of Kate's hometown, he should have been created Master of Buckland. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And yet, UK peerages containing Australian or New Zealand (at least, there may be others) designations are on the record. Ernest Rutherford was "Baron Rutherford of Nelson". See Australian peers for hereditary and life peers with Australian places in their titles. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Rutherford was in fact the slightly more convoluted "Baron Rutherford of Nelson, of Cambridge in the County of Cambridge" - the formal territorial designation was in England, but he took the NZ placename as an additional note. There's a similar thing with the military victory titles - Montgomery, for example, was "Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, of Hindhead in the County of Surrey". I don't believe there are any which don't have a UK territorial designation (except for the ones with pre-independence Irish places in the title). Shimgray | talk | 10:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are Baronets of Nova Scotia, though those seem to be only in the Jacobite peerage and therefore possibly not recognized by the current monarch. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Charles I created the Baronetage of Nova Scotia in 1625, for Scottish baronets; it continued to be used until the Act of Union. The baronetcies originally involved grants of land in the colony, hence the name, but it seems they all carried Scottish territorial associations - "Napier of Merchistoun", "Forbes of Craigievar", etc. However, that said, a baronetcy is more akin to a knighthood than to a barony - it's not a peerage title, and the territorial names aren't particularly significant. Shimgray | talk | 21:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On a related noted, assuming Kate becomes queen someday, what will we call the Wikipedia article about her? She's currently at Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, which is fine, but Queen Catherine is disambig page, and all the other Queens Catherine have some sort of geographic appellation to disambiguate themselves from each other, like the Catherines of Lancaster, Valois, St Sava, Habsburg, Austria, and Braganza, or else they're listed by their maiden names, like Catherines Parr, Howard, and Jagellon. Will we start calling her "Catherine of Reading" when she becomes queen? Or will her page move back to Catherine Middleton? —Angr (talk) 08:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The standard approach here seems to use their maiden name. The Queen Mother what was, is under Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, although she stopped using that name almost 79 years (!) before she died. So, on that basis, I guess the D of C will become Catherine Middleton again. Crazy, but that's consensus for you, apparently. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:30, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, I see that all current European queens consort are called "Queen [Name] of [Country]": Queen Sofía of Spain, Queen Paola of Belgium, Queen Sonja of Norway, Queen Silvia of Sweden. Calling the late queen mum "Queen Elizabeth of the United Kingdom" would of course be ambiguous, as most people would expect that name to refer to her daughter, and indeed the link does redirect to Elizabeth II. But calling Kate Queen Catherine of the United Kingdom would be unambiguous, as all the previous Queens Catherine were of England only, not the U.K. If and when the time comes, that's the option that will get my Support. —Angr (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from issues of ambiguity, the Queen Mother was never the "Queen of the United Kingdom". That would suggest she was a Queen regnant, with a regnal number. But she was not. She was a Queen consort, and was named "Queen Elizabeth", not "Queen Elizabeth <of somewhere>". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:27, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't those two different things? Prince Harry is Prince Henry of Wales, but he's not the Prince of Wales. —Angr (talk) 21:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wow, that reveals a rather ridiculous inconsistency. All the British (generic) queens consort are titled - on Wikipedia, I hasten to clarify - by their name before they became queen consort, hence Mary of Teck, Alexandra of Denmark, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen, Caroline of Brunswick, Sigrid the Haughty (what a great name) and all the rest, etc. But the queens consort of other countries get the names we all know them by, as per your list above. Can anyone explain why we treat the British ones differently? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Jimbo is angling for a Dukedom - or at least a Knighthood ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:07, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An honorary knighthood is possible, as long as he doesn't expect to become Sir James Wales. Unless he becomes a Brit. Maybe he can convince Charles and Camilla to adopt him, then he'd be Prince Jimmy of Wales. He wouldn't be in line for the throne, though, which is a good thing. He's too busy running the Kingdom of Wikipedia as it is.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC) [reply]
We don't do adult adoption in the UK anyway. DuncanHill (talk) 11:58, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clingy Dalai Lama

Isn't the Dalai Lama clinging to the liberation of Tibet? He doesn't seem to accept that maybe Tibet will be a part of China forever. Quest09 (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clinging has a narrow definition in Buddhism. It's not enough to want something to be 'clingy.' Just take a look at Upadana for a definition and types of clinging. Besides that, you can only cling to things that you have. Otherwise that's craving. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.34 (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I'm sure he accepts that the former may be the case, but that does not preclude his hoping for the latter, and acting - within appropriate limits - so as to favour that eventual outcome. "Forever" is a long time: neither China nor the human species will last forever, and the composition of that entity known as China has varied greatly over the centuries. Since neither Wikipedia nor any individual has a crystal ball, neither it nor we individuals can predict how politics (in which someone once said "a week is a long time") may play out over the next century or so. Your underlying question, Quest09, may not be appropriate for the RefDesks as it is not amenable to a factual answer. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.136 (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you for real? Yes, he's clinging onto his soul ideological objective. The Pope is clinging onto a hope for the second coming. That's what devoted people do. ╟─TreasuryTag►District Collector─╢ 18:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing wrong with a good spring clinging. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The propensity of religious leaders to moral hypocrisy is widely known. While some people believe that moral reproach is a valid way to assail religious or (as in this case) a political leader; other methods of criticism such as the comparative evaluate of pre- and post-Chinese dominated modern Tibet also afford viable pathways forward in analysis. One may even be inspired to condemn both parties vying for control of Tibet for hypocrisy in relation to their own belief systems. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:37, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since the official position of the Tibetan Government in Exile is, I believe, that they want autonomy, not independence, you seem to be attributing ideals to the Dalai Lama that he does not hold. --Golbez (talk) 18:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yellow press in Spain

Why doesn't Spain have yellow press like the UK (like The Sun) or Germany (with the Bild Zeitung)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.34 (talk) 17:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because newspaper publishers in Spain don't think there's any demand for it? Gabbe (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason I can think of might be that the nation remembers the Franco era too well to want to buy the kinds of papers that call for simplistic solutions to complex problems. Germany, by contrast, has had fully thirty more years to digest and forget about the slippery slope that kind of thinking sometimes leads to. On the other hand that could be my anti-rightist bias trying to tar and feather and evilly denigrate the right-thinking family-values class that is the keeper of the traditions that made the West great... ah who am I kidding? The Sun is shite. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:54, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Who says it doesn't? I'm struggling to find anything useful online because every search I do comes up with lots of sites about the alleged role of yellow journalism in the Spanish-American war, rather than about modern Spain, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a Spanish equivalent of The Sun. --Tango (talk) 20:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yellow press? We have red-tops, properly called tabloids in the UK, but AFAIK the only thing printed on yellow paper is the Yellow Pages! --TammyMoet (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See yellow journalism. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that piece Tango. As it refers to something that is out of date, may I refer the OP to Tabloid journalism for the UK. "Yellow press" is not something we identify with in the UK. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise, I had never heard of yellow journalism until now. I've added a {{See also}} hatnote to Tabloid#Tabloid journalism to make the similarity in journalistic style clear. Astronaut (talk) 09:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How about Marca (newspaper)? ny156uk (talk) 23:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the situation is similar to that in France. France also appears to not have a yellow press tradition. I was told the reason for this is that French society has a clear division between what is private and what is public. There is therefore little taste for the kind of political scandal and celebrity gossip which fills the pages of newspapers like The Sun. Of course that is all original research based on my own experiences. Astronaut (talk) 09:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, it wasn't all that long ago in historical terms that France had a rather savagely and viciously partisan press, with Communist newspapers dripping vitriol on those who didn't follow the current Moscow party line, and ultra-rightist newspapers run by people who still rejected the revolution of 1789, and combined their hatreds of Jews, Freemasons, and Communists into elaborate conspiracy theories... AnonMoos (talk) 10:16, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Marca is not yellow press or tabloid. It´s just a sports journal, which is widely read in Spain. Actually, no, Spain does not have something as The Sun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.58.2.10 (talk) 12:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spain and France don't have daily celebrity tabloids, but they do have weekly magazines like ¡Hola! and Paris Match which fulfil a similar function, with lots of celebrity gossip and other soft news. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I encountered an issue of either "Paris Match" or a similar and closely-competing publication a few decades back, and was rather startled to find that it seemed to cover almost exclusively royalty and nobility (including the families of several deposed monarchies)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gesture during New Testament recitations

When a priest in church starts to read the excerpts from New Testament, people touch their nose, mouth and something else in a manner different from crossing. What does this gesture mean and how to perform it properly? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.76.224.253 (talk) 17:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Although raised in a predominently Christian-based culture, educated at a (Methodist) school and having attended many hundreds of (Protestant) Christian services I have never noticed such a gesture, nor ever been taught it. Can you be more specific as to the geographical locale, cultural context and Christian denomination where you have witnessed this? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.136 (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can only say that I see that in Roman Catholic church in Poland, when the priest announces which gospel he will recite. 89.76.224.253 (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I've seen that in Catholic services. I think it's a fairly archaic 'bless me' kind of ritual, which would originally have been done with a small cross (like the one generally found at the end of a rosary). One touches the cross to one's forehead (the same place where ashes go), kisses it, and then touches it to one's heart. I'm not sure of the origins of the ritual, and in the modern world where people do not generally carry rosaries around with them it has morphed into a simple hand gesture without the cross. Maybe someone can give more details on the practice. --Ludwigs2 18:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's a version of the sign of the cross, and certainly the little cross on the forehead is a symbol of Christianity at least as old as the larger, stereotypical gesture across the body (as Tertullian said, "We Christians wear out our foreheads"!). It is typically done just before the Priest (or Deacon) reads the Gospel, rather than before any other New Testament reading. One makes 3 small crosses with the right thumb, one on the forehead (Christ be in my thoughts), one on the lips (Christ be in my words), and one over the heart (Christ be in my heart). 82.24.248.137 (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I add that you might find the old Catholic Encyclopedia article interesting in giving some history and context. Here. It isn't always reliable on anything that touches on the modern world or practices that have shifted, but it is usually pretty good on early Christian history and linking it to 'current' (pre-Vatican II) practice. 82.24.248.137 (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC from my Catholic upbringing, you use your thumb to make a small cross on your forhead, your chin, and chest; the implication being that you are asking God to bless your thoughts, your speech, and your heart. --Jayron32 19:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you were supposed to be making it on your lips! Perhaps you never got taught this bit? 82.24.248.137 (talk) 19:50, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Chin, lips, same difference. --Jayron32 19:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do you speak from your chin? I was mostly puzzled as to why you replied to my, more detailed, referenced answer with much the same information, from vague memory, subtly wrong? You can check the Catholic Encyclopedia article for the description of the motions the priest performs before reading the Gospel, which is what the people are echoing on themselves: he traces it on the Gospels, then on his forehead, lips, and breast. If you can get hold of a Missal aimed at clergy, there's a good chance it will have the same information. I'm not sure what symbolism your chin has for you personally? Perhaps it has some specific cultural link to your words that your lips do not? 82.24.248.137 (talk) 20:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Even more sourcing, because I always like an official one: "134. At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well." 82.24.248.137 (talk) 20:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I should also add that the 'translation' given of the Latin here is the old, less-literal translation that we currently use, rather than the more-literal translation that we're going to start using in September. Which is why Et cum spiritu tuo has the word spiritu which isn't really in the translation: this is one of the major things which has been changed, and it comes up in the Mass a lot. It's going to be chaos for months :D 82.24.248.137 (talk) 20:11, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. --Jayron32 20:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Roman Catholics aren't the only ones who do this. Anglicans/Episcopalians, especially those on the high church side of the Anglican spectrum, also make little crosses with their right thumb on their forehead, mouth, and heart at the beginning of the Gospel reading in a Eucharistic service. —Angr (talk) 08:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Captain Cook's Death

Who built the monument for Captain Cook and why? How many other similar monuments were built along coastal waters in memories of ships captains?76.178.113.225 (talk) 19:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)222smile[reply]

According to Kealakekua_Bay#Recreation, the monument was placed on the orders of Likelike, Hawai'ian princess. It does not mention the names of any of the people who may have dragged it into place; such people's names may have never been recorded by history. --Jayron32 19:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Invitation the the White House (US that is)

I had heard that an invitation to the White House by the president is mandatory, but 1, is there any truth to that, and 2 what would the authorities charge you with if you failed to show (assuming they really wanted to pursue it). Googlemeister (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No. If you search for "declining White House invitation", you'll get lots of people who didn't go. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it were mandatory, it would not be an "invitation" but a demand, command, summons, requirement or subpoena. Despite the massive spin and euphemistic lying and words being twisted beyond all recognition, that often come out of places like the White House, 10 Downing St, The Lodge, etc, most words still mean what they seem to mean. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is socially mandatory, mandatory under the rules of etiquette. Ask any authority on manners, and you will learn that when one is invited to the White House by the President, one must attend. The rules of etiquette are not legally binding, however. Just as it is not, technically, illegal to blow your nose on a tablecloth or weat a baseball cap to a church wedding, it is not illegal to decline a President's invitation. However, it is appallingly bad manners, and will reflect negatively on you. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Socially mandatory?[citation needed] I may not be Miss Manners, but I believe it is only required by the rules of etiquette to politely decline if so inclined. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not true that "one must attend," nor is it necessarily the case that failing to accept an invitation will reflect badly. As a daily reader of The Washington Post, I can confirm that people frequently decline invitations to the White House, and at least half a dozen of them have gone on to happy, productive lives. Newly-chosen Speaker of the House John Boehner declined to attend the state dinner for Hu Jintao last January, for example. No doubt he did this politely; he's only attended one state dinner during his 20 years in office. My hunch is that he'll still get invited to the next state dinner, because failing to invite the Speaker could be appallingly bad manners, and certainly unwise politics. --- OtherDave (talk) 19:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably there is a difference between an invitation to a social event at the White House and an invitation to a meeting with the President. If the President asks for a meeting, saying "no" would be very unwise for your future political career. --Tango (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is of course never legally required to accept an invitation to the White House, but traditionally it was viewed as socially unacceptable not to do so except under extreme circumstances:
Once it had been unacceptable to decline a White House invitation except in the case of illness, a death in the immediate family, or a great distance between one's home and the White House. (William Seale, White House Historical Association, The President's House: A History Vol. 2, 2008)
Back in the 1960s and earlier, you didn't decline an invitation to the White House if you were lucky enough to receive one. Today it is commonplace to call the social secretary with a regret. (Jane Alexander, Command Performance: An Actress in the Theater of Politics, Capo Press, 2001)
It is not permitted to decline an invitation to dinner, or to any social entertainment, extended by the President, except for illness, or the illness or death of some near relative. Any invitation from the President is regarded, by courtesy, as having the weight of a command, and it is allowable to break any previous engagement which conflicts with its acceptance, even if it is an engagement to dinner. (The Manners That Win, Compiled by the Latest Authorities, 1883)
I hope this helps. Neutralitytalk 02:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

April 30

human race

why is it that they are different race —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joyphilia (talk • contribs) 01:20, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean why there are human races, probably a combination of founder effect, limited adaptation to climatic conditions, and sexual selection... AnonMoos (talk) 02:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is one answer, but as our article Race (classification of humans) demonstrates, 'race' is largely a social construct: it only really exists because we want it to. Curiously, one of the things that unites the 'human race' is a propensity to divide ourselves up into arbitrary categories... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are two kinds of people: Those who go around dividing the world into two kinds of people; and those who don't. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't like the way Joyphilia phrased the question, imagine it was "Why are there consistent externally-visible phenotypic variations between human populations"? (That was the question that I was answering above...) -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Human genetic variation. Like all living things, the human genome undergoes mutations. Because humans are spread over a huge area of the planet, and until recently, had (relatively) little genetic migration, the opportunity for genetic differences between populations arose. Similar effects are seen for other organisms, with terms like Color phase, Subspecies, Breed, or Race (biology). Some of this variation is undoubtedly driven by natural selection, while other aspects are probably random effects due to the founder effect and genetic drift. Buddy431 (talk) 04:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

USNSY Pearl Harbor Drydock #2.

Someone recently wrote, I arrived in Honolulu Airport 17 Sep 1971 to report to my duty station, USS HADDOCK SSN621, which was in USNSY; Pearl Harbor; Drydock #2. (in part of a question over on the Wikipedia helpdesk [14]).

I've read about USS Haddock (SSN-621), and...I am just curious about what USNSY is, in this context. My guess would be, 'US Navy Service Yard' - but I don't actually know. Any ideas?  Chzz  ►  03:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

United States Naval Ship Yard? —— Shakescene (talk) 07:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC) ¶ See the opening paragraph of Brooklyn Navy Yard for comparison. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ocean liners and Willie Morris

Did Willie Morris travel aboard the SS Flandre from the USA to the UK? Mr. Morris didn't travel aboard the SS Ile de France from the UK to the USA. (That vessel was scrapped in 1959.) Mr. Morris return to the USA was in 1960. I could be wrong about a few of those items. If I'm right, what ocean liner did he travel aboard for his return?24.90.204.234 (talk) 04:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Studies in race

What generally accepted studies have shown that there is/isnt a relationship between a person belonging to a particular region of the world and his intellectual capacity if other factors are not considered?-Shahab (talk) 12:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Race and intelligence. --Tango (talk) 12:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
sock
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Animal crultey

Woudl it be considered crule to mastrubate a male dogg to make him cum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.229.67 (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not "cruel"... but it would certainly be considered inappropriate. In many societies it would even be considered criminal (a form of Bestiality). Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The OP is a sock of the banned user "Light current". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The question is readily answerable, so there's no need to dismiss it as a "troll", even if a childish perspective is suspected. Dog masturbation is considered neither cruel nor inappropriate, if done by a veterinarian or by a private individual with a profit motive.[15][16] and many others. While one often hears bestiality described as immoral in forums, I'm actually finding it rather difficult to find Google hits for cases where the dog was masturbated rather than penetrated (consistent with either this practice, or the much higher overall male imprisonment rate, it would seem). Wnt (talk) 06:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Banned users are not allowed to edit. The alleged quality of their edits is irrelevant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Westminster Abbey flag

What was the flag flying over Westminster Abbey before the royal wedding? - Talk to you later, Presidentman (talk) Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 17:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Standard of Westminster Abbey.svg the abbey flag with the coat of arms of Westminster Abbey. MilborneOne (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The main emblem on the lower half of the flag is from the attributed arms of Edward the Confessor who built the first great minster church at Westminster in 1045. "The arms attributed to Edward the Confessor originated in the silver coins of his reign, which bore a cross between four doves: symbols of piety and gentleness"[17]. Another (less likely) explanation is a local legend from the Romford area of the east London and Essex borders. "King Edward the Confessor is the first notable person to have a connection with the area. He occupied the royal house in the village of Havering atte Bower. His life, like so many Saxon kings, is full of legends. It is said that this holy man was disturbed in his prayers by the singing of nightingales, and so he leant out of the window of his room and told the birds to be quiet. They were, and he continued his prayers in peace. This incident is commemorated by the inclusion of the heraldic birds on the arms of St Edward"[18]. Alansplodge (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The other three parts of the flag come from the Plantagenet family; the "white-in-red rose" in the two corners comes from the roses representing the two branches (York and Lancaster) that fought during the Wars of the Roses. The centre bit is part of the traditional Royal Arms of England, the Gules three lions passant guardant in pale Or armed and langued Azure aka, three gold lions on a red background, with blue claws and tongues, is one of the oldest symbols associated with England, dating to Richard I, and the other two quarters, being gold fleur-de-lys on a blue background, is a symbol of France, and was long part of the coats of arms of English Kings, coming from the claims of the Plantagenet English kings to the Throne of France, and date from the age of the Hundred Years Wars time. You can find most of these elements, along with Edward the Confessor's cross and birds motif, at various arms of English Kings throughout the ages, see File:Coat of Arms of Richard II of England (1377-1399).svg. --Jayron32 05:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably, the Plantagenet emblems are from Henry III of England who had the Abbey rebuilt and is buried there. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...except that the "white-in-red rose" is not a Plantagenet emblem, it's the Tudor rose. Thus Henry VII, who had a chapel built for him at the Abbey (the Henry VII Chapel, surprisingly), is a more likely candidate. 87.115.153.210 (talk) 19:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

ten year census

Is the imformation from the last census private? Do only a select few get to view the trends?76.178.113.225 (talk) 19:38, 30 April 2011 (UTC)222smile[reply]

Which country's census? There are 200-ish sovereign nations in the world, so we need to know whose decennial census you want to find information on... --Jayron32 19:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it's the Uk 2011 census you mean - personal information is kept confidential for 100 years (so will be released in 2111. Also it notes that personal information is not shared with government departments. (http://2011.census.gov.uk/My-census/Frequently-asked-questions#27) ny156uk (talk) 20:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

However, all the aggregated information will be made public, with lots of breakdowns. --Tango (talk) 20:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The IP address is from the U.S., so I assume the OP means the 2010 United States Census. In that case, personal information is kept private for 72 years, so it won't be released until 2082. But the trends, without personal information, is probably available already at http://www.census.gov/. —Angr (talk) 20:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Existence in the universe

When people deny the existence of something because it is an imagination or mythological (like a unicorn), are we all referring to this planet but not the entire universe? For example, an exact copy of the Earth might exist somewhere in the other galaxy. If you deny, then I will ask how do you know?. (Please note that this does not apply to God because of its definition, and please do not start an argument about God here) Aquitania (talk) 21:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have to remember that it is impossible to definitively prove anything, given any particularly arbitrary standard of "proof". For example: prove definitively that I exist, and that you are not currently hallucinating this conversation, or more to the point that your entire existance isn't an elaborate hallucination. By the same standard, its also impossible to disprove anything. However, at some point you need to assume that you can trust your own senses and intellect, because to believe that you cannot makes it impossible to operate in the world. Insofar as you can do that, there needs to be some standards of proof, whereby we say "Insofar as I see no evidence of it existing, I will assume it doesn't, pending such evidence". There is no evidence that unicorns exist, so we must take the standard that they do not. To believe otherwise, to assume that all things exist until proven that they do not, is a greater impossibility, because I could just invent some fanciful thing right now, and I would instantly have a claim that it exists, and could demand that you prove that it doesn't. One thing you should read is Occam's razor, which covers this philosophical ground quite well. --Jayron32 21:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, if we're assuming everything exists until it is proven not to, then a universe where unicorns don't exist exists. We've shifted back the burden of proof, and no-one's gone anywhere. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When someone says "X exists", it is usually assumed to mean that X exists in a way that is accessible or tangible, at least to that person and conceivably to others. restating the question in the form "X exists somewhere where no one can experience it" makes for a different and completely unanswerable question. In other words, saying "there is a man in that room" can be answered - Either there is a man in that room (true) or there isn't (false). saying "there is a man in that room whenever no one is observing" is unanswerable. "Unicorns exist on this planet" lends itself to reasoned investigation and discussion; "unicorns exist on some other planet, far, far away" can only be speculated on. --Ludwigs2 22:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I suppose it can be speculated upon, but there should also be no reason to expect any person to accept the possibility of unicorns existing merely on the non-disprovability of their existance. We can speculate on anything, but we are not required to accept as possibly true, any such speculation. There's no requirement that we accept extraterrestrial unobservable unicorns as more possibly true than any other random, imagined thing. And that's the crux of it; people have no right to demand that others consider the viability of an idea with zero evidence. We can play "let's pretend" all day long, but we should not consider such pretense to be reality. --Jayron32 23:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Myths about creatures like unicorns are generally either about Earth or another "plane of existence" or whatever it's called. I don't think foreign planets in this universe count if the creatures have never visited Earth or been visited by humans. If we tried to count extraterrestrial life then we could also get into arguments about when "horse-like" creatures with a "horn-like" pointy thing on the "forehead" is a "unicorn". Considering the billions of galaxies with billions of stars, there may well be things out there which would be called unicorns if they were suddenly discovered on Earth, but I wouldn't consider that any vindication of unicorn myths. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From Russell's teapot: "... the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others ...". Mitch Ames (talk) 00:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the interesting comparison here is space aliens. Most scientists have no problem with the possibility of extraterrestrial life - if fact, the search for life in other places of the universe is a significant scientific endeavor. On the other hand, most scientists scoff at the idea that there have been extraterrestrial beings who have visited this planet - the later is a much stronger claim with much weaker evidence. this is the difference I was suggesting above. --Ludwigs2 05:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, before the 18th-century in European literature, black swans were used as the textbook example of a non-existent animal (more so than unicorns, since not everybody was convinced of the non-existence of unicorns until a relatively late date). Then of course black swans were found in Australia... AnonMoos (talk) 02:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which just goes to show that - as I have always suspected - Australia is an imaginary place. I mean seriously: Kangaroos? Koalas? Duck-billed platypi? who are they trying to kid? --Ludwigs2 04:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is indeed imaginary - [19]. There are no real people or animals here. That means no black swans, of course. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Coo! Does that mean that the black swan who is nesting on the River Avon down the road from my house in Warwickshire comes all the way from Australia then? That's some migration!--TammyMoet (talk) 08:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
According to Black Swan, "Black Swans were first seen by Europeans in 1697, when Willem de Vlamingh's expedition explored the Swan River, Western Australia"... AnonMoos (talk) 12:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence of absence and the articles it points to is where I would start, although semantically I would argue that when a person declares "There is no such thing as a unicorn", the declaration is implicitly about Earth, and not a twin Earth across the galaxy, or a slightly-different Earth in an inaccessible dimension. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When did the American Civil War end?

For my sets of maps (like Territorial evolution of the United States), I've been wondering, what date should I consider to be the 'end' of the American Civil War? There appear to be five valid options:

  1. April 9, 1865: The Army of Northern Virginia surrendered. This was the primary army of the Confederacy, and its surrender essentially ended major combat.
  2. May 5, 1865: CSA President Jefferson Davis declares the Confederate government officially dissolved.
  3. May 10, 1865: Jefferson Davis is captured.
  4. June 23, 1865: General Stand Watie, the last remaining Confederate general, surrenders his army.
  5. August 20, 1866: U.S. President Andrew Jackson declares the war formally at an end.

Number 5, while the 'official' proclamation, is not commonly used, just as few people say that World War II in the Pacific ended on April 28, 1952. #3 seems extraneous to #2 but I included it since a capture also has meaning. #4 meant the end of large military activities (at least one ship was still raiding until August, but I can't count that as it would also mean counting, for example, the Japanese holdouts after WW2). So that seems to leave me with options 1 and 2. 1 is by far the most well-known date, but - in this particular circumstance - I'm making a map of the history of Alabama. And the armies in Alabama didn't surrender until around May 9. Still, for simplicity's sake, and for the sake of the most well-known date - Lee's surrender - it seems prudent to just use April 9, 1865, as the proper date. Any thoughts? --Golbez (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on what purpose I was doing this. If I were trying to give a general date for the end of the war, April 9, 1865 is as good as any. However, if I were doing a map showing when each state rejoined the union, I would use the official dates of when each state officially rejoined the union, which would be different for each state. For example, an animation showing the order of each states readmission would be better than one in which the entire confederacy magically becomes union again on April 9, 1865; or indeed any other single date... --Jayron32 23:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I sense a slight against my map where the confederacy magically becomes union again on April 9. ;) Don't worry, I'm fixing that in version 2. And after looking over it, ... I don't know, they were technically "readmitted to congress", not the union; as far as the union is concerned, they never left, so they never needed to come back. Then again, being a state means having representation in congress. There's a lot of waffling going on here. :P This is a map of how the counties of Alabama have changed over time, so ... I suppose I could include two things, when it was readmitted to congress, and when the confederate government was dissolved (if one believes the states actually seceded, then that simply split them from a confederation into individual countries again). --Golbez (talk) 23:47, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All those dates are significant, but for the subject at hand, I would definitely base it upon the dates found at Reconstruction_era_of_the_United_States#Readmission_to_representation_in_Congress. Schyler (one language) 23:49, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at an historical atlas right now, and there's a map with a date written over each confederate state listing the date it was readmitted to congress. So clearly, others have felt that those dates were significant. --Jayron32 23:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

April 9 is traditionally thought of as the end of the Civil War, at least more than any other date. However, anyone who's spent any time in the South can tell you the war never really did end. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Having lived in the old Confederacy for nineteen of my years, it's odd that I've never heard of such a holiday. --Golbez (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
#5:That's Andrew Johnson, not Andrew Jackson. 216.93.212.245 (talk) 21:22, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We should consider what date is used by reliable sources, and avoid original research. If the town of Stump Junction, Alabama refused to admit the Civil War was lost, and the local militia drilled each month in Confederate regalia until 1968, that does not mean the American Civil War lasted 167 years! The end of a war does not await the admission by the very last combatant that the "Great Cause" is lost, or WW2 would have lasted until 1974 when Hiroo Onoda and Teruo Nakamura stopped running around on Pacific islands pretending the war was still going on. Edison (talk) 01:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good thing I specifically discarded that situation! --Golbez (talk) 02:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You could have a longer war, such as the Russo-Japanese War, which only saw the end of warfare between Montenegro and Japan in 2006. Nyttend (talk) 04:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Or the Peloponnesian War, which was ended with a peace treaty in 1996, after a trifling 24 centuries ;-) [20]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC) [reply]

Bashar al-Assad, even though an Arab, practically looks like a white man

It's interesting, he looks no less white than many Southern and Eastern Europeans and Jews (all of whom look a bit less white than Northwest Europeans e.g. Germanic/Celtic peoples, who are the most obviously white), and he has blue eyes. Don't give me the 'race is a social construct' BS because the nonsense leftist moron theory of 'social constructivism' wilts in the face of biological genetic reality. I suppose many Turks look like Southern and Eastern Europeans as well, and Syria is close to Turkey.

My question is do you think race is a social construct? I don't, and I think that genetic differences determine not only a person's physical appearance (morphology) but other characteristics as well, such as mental characteristics. This even happens amongst people of the same race. No one is scared to say that dog breeds have different temperaments and the same applies to the different breeds of human. I am talking about race alone and not ethnicity, nationality or culture. At the end of the day I don't see humans as being anything more than intelligent animals, who have developed religions in order to cope with the fact that they're scared of their own death. It's not polite to say so but I believe it's essentially true.

There are differences of magnitude in terms of racial differences. Black people for example are genetically different from the rest of humanity to a greater degree than any non-black people, who are all more closely related to each other than they are to black people.

It is also worth noting that the differences between men and women, not only physically but most critically psychologically, are more significant than the differences between people of different races.--X sprainpraxisL (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Race is a social construct. It does not require your thinking it to be truth. There are genetic difference between people, but there's litterally no connection between the races we assign people to and the genetics of those people. Chinese people have more genetic similarity to Swedish people than do people from two neighboring African tribes; and yet we call both members of the African tribes the same race, and the Swede and the Chinese person of different races. Bashar al-Assad is an Arab because he self-identifies as an Arab, was born into an Arabic culture, speaks a an Arabic language, etc. Any other definition, based largely on what you believe he should look like based on your own limited belief of what Arabs should look like is completely irrelevent. It doesn't mean that being an Arab is an invalid classification, or that he is or isn't one; its just that you need to understand where the definitions of cultural groups come from, and genetics isn't it... --Jayron32 23:45, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that "race does not exist" sounds like it's an attempt by some to eliminate all ammunition from racists. It's usually accomplished by comparing all genes from all groups, in which case you find a minuscule portion of them which vary by race. However, if you only look at those genes which do vary primarily by race, like skin color, eye color, hair color, hair texture, the sickle-cell anemia gene, the Tay-Sachs gene, etc., then it certainly isn't true that, for those genes, "Chinese people have more genetic similarity to Swedish people than do people from two neighboring African tribes". And how could it ? Certainly people who live near each other are far likelier to interbreed and thus have common genes than those on the opposite sides of the planet, at least for those genes which have recently "arrived" via mutations. Then there's also the effect that some genetic mutations are selected for in certain climates and against in others, like sickle cell genes being helpful in areas with endemic malaria but harmful elsewhere.
So why has the idea that "races do not exist" perpetuated, despite racial distinctions being used in medicine, anthropology, etc. ? Mainstream scientists don't want to go on record as saying that races exist, for fear of being called racists.
Of course, many incorrect racial distinctions have been made in the past, such as saying that morality and intelligence is based largely on race. However, this in no way means that all racial distinctions are invalid, like the chances of suffering from certain medical conditions. StuRat (talk) 16:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
bizarre racist/sexist/beer off topic stuff
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Big Sister is all those groups which express female characteristics, and thus employ female procedures. Even if you are a white male, you are expressing female characteristics (i.e. unscientific and antiscientific thought). It is noted that non-white males express female characteristics but even some white males express female characteristics i.e. homosexuals, white males who take non-white women as partners, leftists, Marxists, feminists, etc. Darwin: "It is generally admitted that with woman the powers of intuition, of rapid perception, and perhaps of imitation, are more strongly marked than in man; but some, at least, of these faculties are characteristic of the lower races, and therefore of a past and lower state of civilisation." and Since males vary more than females, and some males possess female characteristics, the situation arises in which some males express female characteristics very strongly. This is the explanation why the best chefs are male, even though – because of their higher sensitivity to taste, smell etc. – females are generally better at cooking. Similarly, some females express male characteristics but this is probably less common, for the simple reason that females with male characteristics will tend to produce fewer children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by X sprainpraxisL (talk • contribs) 00:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Females cannot tolerate naked masculinity. If a male said, "I want all black men who have sex with white women to die with a rope around their neck, I want to have sex with every hot woman I see, and drink Carlsberg Special Brew whilst posting on vnnforum.com", a female would likely be repelled. The reason any white male would oppose this is because they are feminized (i.e. adapted to feminine standards). Argue with millions of years of evolution at your peril. —Preceding unsigned comment added by X sprainpraxisL (talk • contribs) 00:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a point, you are not making it very clear. It reads like bigoted nonsense. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:53, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@X sprainpraxisL: Huh? --Jayron32 01:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the clue is in X sprainpraxisL's latest posting: "Carlsberg Special Brew"... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, I'm three Yeunglings into the night, and it still made no sense to me. Unless the "special" involves some chemicals not present in my beer, I'm still flumoxed. --Jayron32 01:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that Special Brew may contain chemicals unknown to science - mainly because it induces intoxication on sight, rendering analysis impossible. The favourite tipple of the English homeless, along with (ironically) Tennant's Lager. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aaaand I think that's enough of that. I don't see any real question there, just racist/sexist soap boxing. No thanks, buddy. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved the "hatnote" to reintroduce the open discussion. In general, if you let a little off-topic blather close off a thread, you make trolls more powerful than honest participants.
Now to begin with, Bashar al-Assad is the son of Hafez al-Assad, who lived in the upper northwest corner of Syria and was an Alawi. Now Alawi has tribes, but it is a religious minority rather than a race according to the article, so I don't know, but it may be that he is one of the many Syrians who are not Arabs. More broadly (since I'm sure there's a gradient between races) look at a map and you'll notice a few things about Syria: it's not in Africa, it's not on the Arabian peninsula, and it is on the Mediterranean. The Mediterranean was the main highway for thousands of years and the people north and south and east of it were quite free to move around and mingle. For example, Alexander, from Macedonia, built Alexandria, and the Western Roman Empire was as much an African empire as a European one. Likewise Turkey and Greece were a single civilization on the shores of the Adriatic. So there's no reason for someone from Syria to look like he came from, say, Mecca, rather than somewhere in southeastern Europe.
Now for the moment I'll leave the sexual stuff out - there's been a whole lot of speculation about sexual differences for a very long time, and in our current society, with as many women in technical professions as men, it sounds like it didn't add up to a hill of beans. But the situation with race should be dealt with openly. It is clear that yes, there are local genetic differences in genes representing physical appearance. You can tell what race someone is from a genetic test. But it's not easy - not every gene, nor most genes, are affected. People can learn to look for racial features and recognize where someone came from, but everyone, from any race, has a face, and all the parts work the same as anyone else's. (Well, except maybe the earwax) When you look at the details, you see trends - blood group B absent from Native Americans, common in Northern India - but these trends don't really go anywhere - it's just random assortment from place to place. There just hasn't been enough time for any really serious evolution - you're not finding many brand new genes in different parts of the world, just random shuffles. When you do find something new it is so small, so trivial, a base pair or two here or there, no one seriously believes it matters.
Last but not least, the spell. From Gregory the Great: "Non Angli, sed Angeli". It has a special power to drive out the demons of racism, probably now more than ever. Wnt (talk) 06:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Race is a 'political concept, not a scientific one. The concept of race predates science by several millennia, and is basically an attribution concept: people from other tribes are conceived to be qualitatively different simply by virtue of being from other tribes, and thus they can be killed, enslaved, oppressed or etc. in ways that people from our tribe should not be. In fact, this is still essentially the way that race is used in the modern western world: racial problems always reduce to a fear that "that group" (whomever 'that' might be) is more likely to rob us, bomb us, do violence against us, or etc. (whomever 'us' might be) and so 'we' need to take stronger measures against 'them' (preemptive violence, indefinite imprisonment or excessive punishment, unequal application of law or outright oppression...) so that we can control or destroy the threat they represent. Genetics has been applied to the already extant concept of race in a speculative fashion - with no real scientific evidence to support it - because it seems like it ought to fit our preconceived notions on the matter. silliness. --Ludwigs2 17:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Ludwigs2, that's a very insightful way to look at it: That there are genetic differences between races doesn't necessarily mean that races themselves are not a social contruct. There are other genetic differences by which we could group people, but do not, and that arbitrary racial groups have a coincidental genetic component does not make them less arbitrary. I like that line of reasoning. --Jayron32 18:01, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let's put it this way: There are differences between ethnic groups in that certain ethnic groups are more likely to have certain characteristics than others. However, the division of ethnic groups into three or four or five "races" is more or less artificial. Putting Bangladeshis in the same "race" as Hungarians and in a different category from the Burmese is clearly a social construct. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 19:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd even say that's sketchy. Ethnic groups are just races more finely divided. Its the exact same issue. What makes someone French is not their genetics per se, although certain genes may predominate in France through nothing more than the accident that, on the balance, historically French people tended to have sex with other French people. It is their relationship to the French culture and the French state. There's nothing about the genes that makes people French (or Hungarian, or Bangladeshi), those definitions are based solely on socio-cultural mechanisms, not on genetic mechanisms. You can't seriously claim that, for example, Prince William isn't English, even though much of his ancestry, prior to a certain date, lived in other countries. At what magical date does residency in a culture change you genetically to become part of that ethnicity? --Jayron32 19:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The best way to put this is that while there are clearly genetic differences between more-or-less isolated groups of humans (e.g., there are genetic variations across the population of humans which produce differing amounts of melanin in human skin), there is almost no evidence that such genetic differences correlate with conventional notions of race, there is almost no evidence that such genetic differences correlate with any differences in cognition or behavior, and there is literally no evidence that conventional notions of race correlate with differences in cognition or behavior, mediated by genetics. Genetics is (scientifically speaking) a powerful red herring. Lot of smoke poured out on this topic; very little fire. --Ludwigs2 20:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The "race is a social construct" is something of a red herring itself - the meaning of the sentence is that race is defined socially, not that it doesn't have any genetic basis at all; but that basis is made up of really trivial stuff. An example of the social definition with real-world consequences is the race of Hispanics, which was actually only invented a few decades ago. In the weird world of American race, Hispanic is dominant to black, which is dominant to white. So, as far as I understand it, whenever a Hispanic man in the U.S. has children with a black or white woman, or vice versa, the children are all "Hispanic". In light of this it is unsurprising that Hispanics are "America's fastest-growing minority"! But the way that this plays in the press, in the general population of the country, is with an image that "the entire country is being taken over by Hispanics", who are in turn assumed to be illegal immigrants from Mexico. This has whipped up some of the less friendly parts of the white community into a frothing mad fury - but I think they're being whipped up by a bogus statistic that comes from an unreasonable definition! Wnt (talk) 04:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, none of that is exactly true. First of all, the U.S. census, insofar as it represents the closest thing we have to "official" definitions of these sorts of things, doesn't treat Hispanics as a race. It treats Hispanics as different category of existance, the only other part of that category, according to the U.S. census, is "not Hispanic". I wish I was making that up, really I do. Race is a seperate category, thus one can be both black and hispanic (as someone from the Dominican Republic is likely to be) or white and hispanic (as someone from, say Cuba is likely to be). They also place absolutely no requirements or instructions on how you are to answer the questions; it is purely self-identification. Thus, they don't require you to call yourself "Hispanic" if your last name is Garcia or Hernandez; if you don't feel particularly "Hispanic", you are free to answer "not Hispanic." Likewise, if your name was something like "Fox" or "O'Higgins", and you feel that you are "Hispanic", you are free to enter "Hispanic" for yourself. And before we jump to any conclusions, ask yourself how Vicente Fox and Bernardo O'Higgins might answer that question. this is the full form used in 2010. Its only 10 questions, and questions 8 and 9 are the relevent ones. The definition, according to the U.S. census, of what you are is "What do I think I am?" Ultimately, its the only one that matters. --Jayron32 05:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That also allowed Obama to put down that he was just black on his census, even though he is half white and was indeed raised by his Irish American mother's side of the family. Same with Phil Lynott and Bob Marley; both of them were half-black and half-white, but everyone thought of them simply as being black (in Lynott's case, black-African instead of black Irish). So yes, it can be rather arbitrary. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May 1

Wendi Deng

why she married Rupert Murdoch, i mean a person who is 40 years older that her? --HoulGhostjj (talk) 05:07, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because she wanted to. --Jayron32 05:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
After his money, clearly. (I hope the OP gets irony.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:20, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Whether she married him for love or money (or both) is no one's business but hers and his. Still, women marrying very rich, much older men is a tradition that must be millennia old. Another recent example is Anna Nicole Smith, who married a man 62 years older than her. —Angr (talk) 08:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe a link to Age disparity in sexual relationships is called for here. Dismas|(talk) 09:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan politician wearing vests?

What's with Taiwan politicians always wearing vests with their names on it? When did this start? Is this done in other cultures? F (talk) 09:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

same reason that US politicians all wear flag pins - it's symbolic/expected. --Ludwigs2 18:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They're political campaign vests. A jacket saying 'vote for me'. Nanonic (talk) 20:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the UK it has become popular for politicians, especially very senior ones, to visit factories or schools or even conventions without a jacket and with the sleeves rolled up. The purpose presumably is to give the impression that they are "working hard" and/or "down there with the ordinary people". If only! Caesar's Daddy (talk) 15:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Prince William's medal

Does anyone know, specifically, what medal Prince William when he's in dress military uniform? Swarm X 09:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's the Queen Elizabeth II Golden Jubilee Medal. Proteus (Talk) 09:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's one up from a Blue Peter badge. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 15:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oxford Group

The Oxford Group, it says, was founded by a Lutheran pastor, but is the group itself a "sub-group" of Lutheranism? If a person follows most of the group's ideas, is the person a Lutheran more or less? Geschichte (talk) 14:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, the group had ideas that were not in sync with Lutheran doctrine. Blueboar (talk) 14:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Encouraging diplomats to defect

Hi, I'm wondering... if I contact ambassadors, consular officers or other diplomats from repressive regimes serving here in my country (Australia) and encourage them to abandon their brutal masters and seek political asylum here in Australia, am I breaking any laws?

What will be the likely reaction of the Australian government? Need I fear any repercussions to myself?

Also, why is this (attempting to encourage defections) not done more often - either by governments of human rights groups?203.45.95.236 (talk) 16:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it ends up as actual harassment, you're most likely to be ignored. However, encouraging people to defect is not that easy. Diplomats are typically doing fairly well in their home country. Moreover, they will most likely have been pre-screened for reliability. And they will have their own justification for serving their government - they may disagree about the "brutal and oppressive", or they may view this as unfortunate but necessary, or as the lesser of two evils compared to the alternative (which, very often, is not Swedish model democracy, but another oppressive regime). That said, I always thought that for the money the Iraq war consumes, you could probably give a few million to each insurgent, give them Skiing lessons, and resettle them to Aspen, Colorado. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly likely to discurage more people from becoming insurgents. Googlemeister (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ambassadors defecting usually happens when their country's government is collapsing and they want to get out while they can (that's what's happened with Libyan ambassadors recently). As long as their home country is still working well, they probably aren't going to be persuaded by a few letters. --Tango (talk) 17:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I normally despise respondents asking OPs things like "Why do you care?" or "What does it matter?". But in this case, I'm tempted. Surely the ambassador can get exactly the same news and information about their country that's available to you, and probably a whole lot more that's not available to you. If they were remotely minded to defect, they know the diplomatic channels to approach, better than you do (unless you just happen to work for DFAT), and the only encouragement they're likely to pay any attention to would be trusted friends or colleagues of theirs, not random strangers. If I were an ambassador being encouraged to defect by a total stranger I'd never even met, from the country I was being encouraged to defect to, I'd be extremely suspicious, which would tend to negate any thoughts of defection I was already having. But that's just me. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note... if you are a citizen of the nation with the repressive regime, and are encouraging one of your own diplomats to defect away from your country ... the regime might well charge you with a crime (such as treason). Blueboar (talk) 19:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Any guesses someone makes on the impact to yourself and the reaction of the Australian government would be pure speculation, because we don't know how things would play out. Encouraging defection, especially on the part of a government, would be a very risky move. Said government would probably, assuming they permit free speech (and if they don't... why defect?), receive quite a lot of flak from within as well as without. sonia♫ 20:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Particularly if we are talking about the embassy of a large country say China, I doubt the ambassador will even see the letter. I'm pretty sure that as with many people in high positions, they don't actually read all the mail addressed to them. Someone else opens it and reads it and does whatever they think is best (which may occasionally mean sending it on to the ambassador). In the case of a letter encouraging the ambassador to defect they probably aren't going to send it on to the ambassador, far more likely they are just going to junk it or perhaps send a reply defending their country (perhaps getting the ambassador to sign it probably still without bothering to show them the original letter, perhaps not ) and perhaps also send it to their security person if they think the person is a security threat (not because they think the person is going to convince the ambassador to defect but because they fear the person who sent it may harm them in some way). P.S. For those who saw the Chaser's War on Everything episode where they snuck into the APEC security cordon dressed as Osama bin Laden will know in the same episode they tried to get the Chinese consulate to pay for bullets to assassinate Hu Jintao, I don't think anything happened from this other then getting kicked out of and perhaps banned from the Chinese consulate. Nil Einne (talk) 12:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Time travel - becoming a historical figure

I'm not a big fiction reader. Has anyone ever written a story about someone traveling back in time to become a historical person? Like if someone traveled to ancient Macedonia and switched their baby with the son of Phillip II of Macedon. This would mean their own son would grow up to become Alexander the Great. Or, a person adept in an ancient language traveled to the past to become the hero they read about in history books. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This TVtropes page mentions a few examples of "person goes back in time to become significant figure"; it's not historical, which I think you were looking for, but Night Watch pulls the trick off very well. Shimgray | talk | 21:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That example is fine. I was just wondering if anyone had done it before. Thanks. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) Several writers of Science Fiction, in which Time travel is a popular theme, have used plot devices of this type (time-traveller becoming historical figure): just off the top of my head, there's Michael Moorcock's Behold the Man; Robert Silverberg's Up the Line; and Harry Harrison's The Technicolor Time Machine. I have purposely refrained from giving any details of those works to avoid giving you or others spoilers, but you may choose to follow the links and read their individual articles, which themselves hopefully do not over-spoil the works. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.100 (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting twist on this theme is Simon Hawke's TimeWars... at one level, the novels are standard "time commandos" trope (a team of police/military types are sent into the past to prevent the bad guys from changing history)... but each novel also follows the basic plot of a classic work of fiction (Ivanhoe, The Three Musketeers, The Prisoner of Zenda, etc.). The time travelers end up becoming main characters in those fictional works. Blueboar (talk) 23:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In one of my editor rejection letters for my own novel (stating that it was too common of a plot), I was given that series along with a list of about 20 other books that involve replacing historical figures with people from the future as that was a key plot element in my novel. I figured that if you have access to all humans throughout time, it would become trivial to find someone with duplicate dna (a dude) and use that person to replace someone. It is so common, that Paul McCartney is replaced just to show how it works at a "take a vacation in a historical person's life" resort. -- kainaw™ 12:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A fairly early example was in Poul Anderson's Time Patrol series (an agent becoming Cyrus of ancient Persia, greatly helped along by timeline inertia or rebound -- the idea that except at certain critical points, history tends to resist being changed in any major way). AnonMoos (talk) 02:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There was at least one episode of Quantum Leap where the lead character, Sam, 'leaps' into the body of a historical figure. The one that comes to mind is where he leaps into the body of Buddy Holly. Dismas|(talk) 02:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He did that a lot, I seem to recall the network thought it boosted ratings (I don't remember Buddy Holly, but he did become Elvis and Lee Harvey Oswald, at least). Adam Bishop (talk)
I have read quite a few books where the female protogist is hypnotised and regressed back to her past life as an historical person such as Maud de Braose and the Countess of Buchan.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, alleged memory of past lives is not really the same as "active" time travel into the past. AnonMoos (talk) 08:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There was a Star Trek Deep Space 9 episode where this happened and the captain ended up as some kind of historical revolutionist. Googlemeister (talk) 13:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can only very dimly remember the specifics of The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World, and I think the time travel rather convolutes things. But if memory serves the hero is chasing a time meddler named "He", and I'm almost certain I remember a cliffhanger (perhaps from the 2000AD rendering of it) where the characters are shocked to discover that some historical figure (my 30 year old memory says Oliver Cromwell, the article suggests Napoleon) is really He. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 15:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Smokey Clegg

hello was in the paper today as well that Nick Clegg is still smoking is there a way yo find out which brand he smoke?? and if not is it a ligitimite freedom of information act to find out so? Thank You Sally james langley (talk) 20:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt very much that the Freedom of Information Act 2000 applies to which brand of cigarettes Clegg smokes, as he is not a 'public body' (e.g. a government department, school, council etc). If he smokes, he does so in a private capacity. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It does not seem to me that it would be a valid freedom of information request - the FOI legislation is designed to allow documents held by government bodies to be released to the public, not to acquire information on the personal habits of politicians. Were the Cabinet Office to be buying the cigarettes for him, then there might be a FOI aspect, but otherwise he himself isn't FOIable! Shimgray | talk | 21:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nick Clegg smokes Silk Cuts, I believe. See This article from the telegraph. Hope this helps! 119.225.16.46 (talk) 08:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Painting in The Other Guys

Anyone know the title/artist of this painting, seen in the movie The Other Guys?Reflectionsinglass (talk) 22:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May 2

List of locations of polling places in last Czech Parliamentary elections?

Is there anywhere a comprehensive list of locations of polling places can be found for the latest Czech parliamentary elections? Thanks.--128.54.224.231 (talk) 00:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Teen views on same sex marriage

There are many polls that break down support of same sex marriage by age bracket, and not surprisingly, the younger respondents are more supportive. However, I've yet to see a poll that includes the 13-17 year old group. Based on the pattern, I'd predict that teens are more tolerant of same sex marriage than young adults, but does anyone have data that supports/refutes this hypothesis? --140.180.16.144 (talk) 02:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

13-17 year olds tend to be more tolerant of many things such as the absolute wisdom of the latest pop-idol. bearing in mind that the human brain is usually not fully formed untill one reaches the 20s much less gathered wisdom, it seems reasonable that the lower age groups might not be the best place to seach for informed guidence.190.56.17.88 (talk) 03:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The upper age groups aren't good places to seek guidance either--they're just old and senile miscreants with outdated views. The middle-age group should be ignored, too, because they're too busy getting mid-life crises to think rationally about the wider world. While we're at it, we should avoid the young adults, because they're frantically looking for jobs and likely to promote whatever political views get them richest the fastest, and have no time to be idealistic.
My point is that we should judge a person's opinions on a case-to-case basis instead of using sweeping generalizations. I'm very sure that for every social issue I've ever thought about, at least one teen in the world has pondered it more rationally and more objectively than me. I respect the opinions of everybody who is willing and able to justify them, regardless of age or any other physical characteristic. In fact I've often succeeded in having intellectual conversations with teens on "sensitive" topics, whereas the adults I tried to discuss them with simply accused me of insulting their beliefs and refused to continue the conversation. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 07:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, that was magnificent! And I've had much the same experiences myself comparing teenagers and adults. DuncanHill (talk) 09:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The OP didn't say that they were looking to 13-17 year olds for guidance. Just data from surveys of that age group. Dismas|(talk) 03:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected. Thank you.17.88190.56.17.88 (talk) 03:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dismas is correct: I was just looking for data, not for guidance. However, I thought that your post was insulting enough to warrant a response. --140.180.16.144 (talk) 07:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It occurs to me that some jurisdictions may have child-protection laws which would have the effect of discouraging (not necessarily explicitly) the inclusion of minors in opinion polls and statistical surveys of social attitudes, either in general or just on certain subjects including those related to sexual activity. Similar considerations of informed consent may be covered by the research ethics of those engaged in social research. If so, there may simply be few surveys which have gathered this sort of data from the age group in question. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.85 (talk) 19:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Time Urgent-- help us find a list of companies that supported Jim Crow?

We need a list of companies that supported Jim Crow laws or came under boycott as part of the civil rights movement. For example, this story on the National Civil Rights Museum shows the Montgomery Bus Boycott exhibit[21], their bus carries a Pepsi-Cola ad suggesting that company was a sponsor-- but obviously, I want a source, not an inference.

What other companies that still exist fell under boycott? Please help. Time urgent and for a good cause. --Tangledorange (talk) 12:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article Rosa Parks does not imply that the boycott was against any particular company or companies, but against the state law. Similarly, I think you will find it difficult to find any companies that were explicitly either for against this law. No doubt there were individuals who spoke out both for and against segregation, but few people would have regarded it as appropriate for companies to say or do anything one way or another. In particular, I think your assumption that Pepsi-Cola "sponsored" the Jim Crow laws is misplaced: they were a company who advertised on buses amongst other places. Until Rosa Parks made her famous stand, there was nothing political about buses, and even after there was nothing about one particular bus company as against others. --ColinFine (talk) 14:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's my understanding too, but I know boycott was too powerful a tool for the civil rights movement to have limited it to buses. --Tangledorange (talk) 15:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Online Korean Language courses - where, please?

Also, for anything less than $225/credit-hour, please? (Coming from a Kansan resident.) A Korean class has been elusive for me, especially an online one.

Online Comm Courses

Moreover, what are some communications classes online that I can take through a community college (or other places that'll, for me, cost less than $220/credit-hour?) (I already took Public Speaking, so maybe Interpersonal Communication, Persuasion, and whatever could teach me to negotiate myself to better positions in life. --70.179.169.115 (talk) 13:06, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why are christians happy that Osama Bin Laden is dead?

I thought their religion teaches them to love their enemies. Isn't this part of their religion? I am confused. 69.68.161.178 (talk) 13:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are a little confused. There are many kinds of Christianity, and many Christian opinions within these kinds. Some Christians are upset about the assassination of Osama bin Laden for religious reasons, others for political reasons. Some are celebrating the assassination of Osama bin Laden for political or nationalist reasons; and, a smaller minority for religious reasons. In addition, many of the people celebrating his killing who aren't Christian are doing so for political or nationalist reasons. Many people, many views, many reasons. Fifelfoo (talk) 13:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because terrorists gave up their claim to humanity (in some of their views anyways). Googlemeister (talk) 13:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding of the New Testament is that you can't ever give up your claim to humanity, whatever you do. Love the sinner, hate the sin, etc. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) :Many, many Christians are not happy that he is dead. They see this passage: "Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice, or the LORD will see and disapprove" as being true and applicable in this case. (Proverbs 24: 17,18) --TammyMoet (talk) 13:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As others have said, clearly not all Christians are happy over his death. From our own article on the death:
Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi said that while Christians "do not rejoice" over a death, bin Laden's death serves to remind them of "each person's responsibility before God and men," expressing hope that bin Laden's death "would not be an occasion for more hate, but for peace." The Vatican went on to say that Osama bin Laden must answer to God for having killed an innumerable number of people and exploiting religion
Nil Einne (talk) 13:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Am I the only one who thinks it is a troll post? --Reference Desker (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think people are celebrating the removal of a person who had thrown down the gauntlet against the western world and therefore made it impossible for innocent people (be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, athiest, pagan, Wiccan, Satanist, whatever) to travel in planes, the metro, by train or to even feel safe in their own streets, towns and cities. It's not "nice" to threaten people, you know.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not necessarily a troll. Consider it from the other side... After 9/11, the news media directed at Christians focused heavily on showing anyone who looked anything like a Muslim having a huge celebration. Many Christians asked why the Muslims are celebrating the deaths of so many people. Now, I'm sure that the news media directed at Muslims is focused heavily on showing anyone who looks anything like a Christian having a huge celebration. Many Muslims will certainly ask why Christians are celebrating the death of another human. In both cases, the root of the evil is the news organizations that are truly focused on making money in any way possible - mainly through exploitation of ignorance. -- kainaw™ 14:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is that true? One of the images I remember from the reporting on 9/11 was a crowd of Iranian women in full hijab chanting "America! Condolences! America! Condolences!". Anyway, I as a Christian cannot feel happy that Bin Laden is dead, however much as an American I feel like I'm supposed to. Although I utterly disagree with both his ends and his means, joy is not what I'm feeling today. I will feel joy if Obama takes this opportunity withdraw American troops from Afghanistan, though I'm not holding my breath. Pais (talk) 14:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1) Not all Americans are really christian, and many Christians aren't observant. Americans are _everything_. Young people in big cities especially tend to be secular or some other religion. When we see the huge crowd on TV, we assume American Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus are all probably in that crowd. 2) I think some Americans do feel a little 'weird' about celebrating a human death-- but bin laden caused so much pain, people are feeling joy that that evil is gone. --Tangledorange (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There were some Muslims dancing in the streets on 9/11, while others (including Arafat) expressed shock and horror at what happened. Last night there were also Muslims dancing in the streets at the death of that evil being. As one of them said, Osama bin Laden had caused a great deal of harm to Muslims in America and around the world. While it may not be right to celebrate one man's death, it is a war we're in, and which we have to win. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Tangledorange's answer is correct on both counts. I should elaborate that I think much of the rejoicing is not directly because people had been afraid of terrorism - I don't think they were, and the threat at least right now may be higher than ever. But it's a hope that after a whole decade of security lunacy, trillion dollar wars, and a whole new kind of Cold War mentality, that this death might inexplicably bring about a return to sanity and prosperity, as inexplicably as people allowed the original attack to cause all those things in the first place. Wnt (talk) 18:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I think it's more of a relief than anything. We've been waiting over 9 years to deal with that guy who harmed us so badly. He's like Hitler, in being a good, visible scapegoat for everything bad that's happened in America and around the world during the past decade. It appears that Pakistan double-crossed us at every turn, until we finally got wise and did it ourselves (don't ask why it took us 9 years to figure that out). Even though al-Qaeda will surely go on, their founder is gone, and there's no grave for them to rally around. And as soon as the next guy takes over, he'll be hunted down and killed too, and maybe the followers might start to get a clue. It's to be hoped that this is the beginning of the end of this situation, this "war on terror" or whatever to call it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Very few people derive their morals from the nominal tenets of their religion. Most inherit it from their society and then pick and chose some parts of the faith that can be used to support this pre-existing framework.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not exactly a theologian here, but I think that it might be possible to love one's enemy and want them to be brought to justice for their crimes at the same time. I don't think there are any Christian societies that have interpreted the command to love one's enemies to mean that criminals should not be punished. (Although some may view that as a reason not to have the death penalty or torture criminals) Many Christians do view mass-murder as a capital offence, not sure if that's because of a specific bible verse or societal conditioning. Qrsdogg (talk) 19:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nowhere does it ever say that loving one's enemy means condoning any of their actions. When you forgive someone, it means you've stopped hating them for doing whatever it was they did that hurt you, it doesn't mean the hurt didn't happen in the first place, nor does it mean that the person is suddenly relieved of responsibility for making whatever amends are possible and necessary. When you go to Confession (or whatever they call it these days; Reconciliation, I think), and the priest asks you to say 10 Hail Marys and forgives you, you still have to submit yourself to whatever legal processes are necessary if there's any breach of the law involved, and take whatever punishment or pay whatever fine the state decides is appropriate; or, if it's a private matter, you still have to apologise to the offended party and build a bridge by demonstrating your regret and your commitment not to reoffend. This distinction between people and their actions means that not even Osama bin Laden was an evil person; he was a person who committed evil deeds, and deserved whatever punishment was appropriate for those deeds. If you start a war, you run the risk of being killed. It's that simple. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The simple answer to this question is that the world is full of people of all races and religions who are ignorant enough to get excited over pointless violence. Bin Laden's death changes nothing, the war on terror has changed nothing, even 9/11 didn't really change anything - but for some reason they each made different people feel good about themselves. It reminds me of an old apocalyptic science fiction book (can't remember the name), where the last living act of the last living human on the face of the destroyed planet is to thumb his nose at God. --Ludwigs2 18:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Muffin the mule

Is it legal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.131.13 (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The TV program is, though it doesn't seem to be on any more. In reference to anything else, I am not so sure, perhaps it would come under copyright laws, in which case you would be better off asking for advice from a trained laywer. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 17:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dulle Griet/Dull Gret

Online, I can only find reference to the painting by Pieter Brueghel and the cannon, both of which reference a Flemish legend... where can I read more about the legend itself? 165.91.189.35 (talk) 18:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK so it's not online but de Dulle Griet bar in Ghent has an ancient cartoon strip which explains one version of the legend: Adam and Eve are in the Garden, and are tempted by the snake to eat an apple. Adam goes first, grows hair and genitalia, and jumps Eve. Eve goes next, and gets mad as hell and takes it out on the snake. Is that the version you're after? --TammyMoet (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Double Jeopardy

A friend of mine has gotten into some legal trouble. He was going to court on his second DUI. He went to a couple of court hearings on the case and the judge orgered him to pay a heafty fine (I think around $1700), 200 hours of community serive and 12 months of probation. He had been paying on his fines, but was yet to sign up for probation. Being as smart as he was, he was still driving around on a suspended driver's lisence. Of course, he was pulled over for having a cracked windshield, and recieved a couple more tickets. When the officer ran his ID, he came back to inform him that he had a warrant out for his arrest for violating his probation. The warrant was sent out from the county court district, the charges that he had been seeing the judge for was a city courthouse. He had just had a court date at the city courthouse a few weeks before this and the judge gave him some more time to sign up for his probation and set a review hearing, which was only a few weeks away. He tried tried explaining this to the officer. How could he have a probation violation when he wasn't signed up yet? Somewhere in all of this, my friend was under the impression that the police officer saw that he was supposed to be on probation and since he was recieving new charges that day, that it would be a probation violation, so the officer made it into a warrant. I don't know how that would work, or if an officer even has that right, but they took him to jail on the warrant. He happened to be in a different county when he was arrested so he endend up waiting for nearly a month before they sent for him to go to court, not to mention that they only knew he was incarcerated because he had a friend call them.

After he went to court on the warrant, they gave him time served which cut his community service and fine down, but he still was required to do the 12 months of probation. Needless to say, he missed the review hearing for the city while he was in jail. Since the charges had been moved to the county and he was already sentanced on that case, he didn't think anything of it. They released him from jail, he signed up for his probation and about a week or so later, he recieved a letter stating that he had been issued a warrant from the city for missing his court date!

I know about the double jeopardy law and have been researching like crazy. My question I quess would be, is there anyway that the court system can get away with this? After waiting around in jail until his friend called on the case, it makes you wonder if there was a warrant. You would think that if they county was waiting for this guy to be caught, they would be watching for him in all the county jails. Or that the arresting county would notify the other jail to let them know that he was being held there. Maybe the officer did have some way to violate his "probation" and turn it into a warrant. Now he is looking at actually violating his probation on the charges that he's already been sentanced on, twice in a way, the city that had a review hearing set up in just a few weeks and the couny that had him incarcerated which led to him missing his review with the city.

I'd appreciate any kind of feed back on this. Thank you for spending your time reading this.

Sincerely, Confused

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcracraft (talk • contribs) 19:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the leading whitespace - this is not how paragraphs are marked on Wikipedia and makes things harder to read. 128.232.241.211 (talk) 20:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Forts / Fortresses in Medieval Europe

The size of Fortresses could vary I suppose, and thus how many men they could hold would also vary, but in general how many men would you think a fort could hold?

Also how few could the smallest forts hold, and how many could the biggest forts hold? Just to get an idea of the minimum and maximum capacity. I want to make clear that I speak of 'real' fortresses, solid proper fortresses made of solid stone, like in the crusades. And I don't really speak of a citadel or anything like that which was part of a city, where soldiers might live outside, in the city.

Instead, imagine a fort situated somewhere at a frontier, away from cities and towns, but that it is still fully manned because some enemy, or perhaps barbarians or somesuch threatens to attack the kingdom from that direction.

I'm sure that one can squeeze in a lot of men in that fort over a short time, but over a longer period soldiers would live there, sleep there, eat there and patrol the walls, and simply be there in case the enemy shows up, so there has to be some limitation as to how many soldiers a fort could hold. I cannot picture a fort holding... thousand men or more. As I said before they need to sleep there and enough food needs to be available to feed the men etc. I can imagine a fort being able to holding maybe 100 to 300 men over a longer period..?

But since I'm only speculating and do not know for sure, I ask for your opinion :)

Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.165.123.18 (talk) 20:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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