Talk:Bulgarian people

Slavic Bulgarians and Modern Bulgars based in regions away from Bulgaria should not be confused. They are now technicly, officially and genetically two seperate nations. Bulgarians of Sofia and Plovdiv belong to the Slavs and those of Tataristan in Russia have maintained their identity over the centuries. All links between them are lost; even in Bulgaria, not all people are descendants of the ancient Bulgars yet over the borders in Macedoia and Serbia-Montenegro, many locals have in them routes in the Turkic Bulgars, but it has all washed away. Celtmist 1-11-05

The article in this form is total sh** and has so many factual mistakes that it is astounding. It is to be corrected with the shorthest possible delay (unforetunately I don't have time right now) VMORO

VMORO, I think that will do for a beginning. 213.240.197.52

Nothing different from what we have in official Bulgarian textbooks. If it is supposed that most respected Bulgarian scholars write sh*** - that's a whole new question. 212.104.110.206 12:48, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I should note that I haven't written the above statement (though I quite agree with it), I would at least phrase it in a different way. Congratulations to the one who wrote the article for darting to start it - there will be a lot of work on it otherwise. Regards: the real VMORO

Really, I do not see why this map shouldn't remain on this page. Didn't the Bulgarians live on the BALKAN PENINSULA in 1861 or what ?! I don't see anything wrong.

Za6toto ne saotvetstva na savremennata etni4eska kartina. Kartata mozhe da se vklju4i v sekciqta Istoriq na balgarite, kogato tq bade napisana. VMORO

Gospodin VMORO, izrichno e napisana godinata ot kojato e kartata, tova che vie otivate ot ednata krajnost v drugata (doseshtate se che govorja za neutralnsot i obaktivnost) ne e moj problem. A kyde e problemyt s katrinkite na bylgarite ?

Kartata ima mqsto v sekciqta za istoriq, koqto se nadqvam da napi6a do kraq na Qnuari - ako imam vreme. Ne se otiva v nikakva krajnost, dazhe smqtam, 4e trqbva da se dobavqt nqkolko karti, taka ili ina4e imam pone 10na v kompjutara si. A kakvo imash predvid s "katrinkite na balgarite" ne moga da razbera. VMORO

Spored men, tryabva da se dobavi i kolko Bulgari priblizitelno ima v Republika Makedonia (1 mln.? 1,5 mln.?) Vladko --217.9.225.146 15:34, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why not write in English in the future? Fornadan

Numbers

An anon changed the number:

Greece: 130,000 (est.)

Greece: 37,230 (2001)

Please verify. mikka (t)

        It's 37,230 (2001 census). [1]

37,230 is a number of the official census. Stop changing that with an estimation of an unknown source.

Please, stop writing that Bulgarians in Greece are 130,000 including illegal immigrants! You know very well it's not true and the fact 130,000 is a number from an unofficial source, doesn't mean these persons are illegal immigrants. Where are objectivity and neutrality ? Isn't Wikipedia supposed to be a neutral source of information ? I'm sorry, but I'm really disappointed by this! And I don't think Wikipedia is a place for greek xenophobes to propagandate their fascist ideas ! Please tell me, if i have said something wrong !

To person who put Slavs were most numerous after Indians

You confused it with Thracians:

"According to the Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC) the Thracians were the most numerous people in Europe and came second in the world after the Indians (obviously the world Herodotus knew). "

Thracians are Slavs - a new theory

It is stupid to believe it, but visit http://www.maknews.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

Bulgarians in Macedonia are 1.5 milions

Bulgarians in Macedonia are 1.5 milions.The other people in Macedonia are turks, albanians, greeks and propagandists - about 0.5 to 1 million

Bulgarians in Macedonia are 1.5 million and in Croatia they are 4 million

well why not? It seems that everybody is Bulgarian. The whole issue of power expansion depends on people of other nations and from outside of a state declaring themselves by the name of your particular nationality for you to lay claim to it. Well the 1.5 million who compose the principle population of Macedonia declare themselves 'Macedonian' and not 'Bulgarian'. Internationally they are recognised as 'Macedonian Slavs' to avoid confusion with 'Macedonian Albanians' etc. Bulgaria's only claim to the people of Macedonia is no different to the claims that Bulgaria should rightfully be under Macedonia: Together the two nations form part of a larger continuum of Slavic nations; both derive their names from non-Slavic sources. Macedonia is from the nation who lived in the region centuries before Christ before assimilating the Greeks and embarking on their crusade, and Bulgaria from the Bulgars, a now extinct Turkic people whose final few assimilated Slav culture when surrounded by the larger numbers. Since Tatar is no longer spoken in Bulgaria, and since Bulgarian Slavs and Turks know one from the other by language (something which would have been impossible if Tatars had maintained their identity), it must be said that modern Bulgaria is a Slavic state just like Macedonia. As such, the Sofia government has no claim on the people who declare themselves Tatars/Bulgars in the other parts of Europe and Asia. Those Tatars can positively trace their routes to the original Bulgars and have their language as proof. They are totally isolated from the country to call herself Bulgaria and to them, she cannot be classed as a nation state - unless they too become South Slavic which would go against the grain. As for the Bulgarians of Romania, well, there is a recognizable population of people native to Romania whose destiny was to live in a region contolled by the Roman descended people and not any of the Slavic countries to form after world War I: that population most probably calls itself Slavic with a regional name to represent their subgroup (ie. Bosnians, Torbeshi, Istrians, Serbs, Macedonians, Slovaks, Moravians...etc) but the government in Belgrade recognizes all Slavic speaking people of Romania to be Serbs; the government in Zagreb claims them all to be Croat and in Sofia, it is said that these people are all Bulgarian. So what are these individual names for Slavic nations - Slavonians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, Bulgarians etc? Nothing but bases for power who want to impose their name on the wider community. Celtmist 6 September 2005 well I will try give you some reasons just because your interests seems genuine - first of all when did bulgarians spoke tatar language I can not imagine - I would suggest you have read pro-macedonian propaganda which refers to Bulgarians as to tatars - this of course is in no way offensive as they imagine only untrue and if you would care to take your interest a little further by reading about the history of the Republic of Tatarstan you may discover that the people there are indeed directly linked to the Bulgars but were named tatars only in 19 century by Carist officials and later again during the same name by the Stalinist regime and the actual tatars have little to do with Bulgars and even less with nowadays Tatarstan and Bulgaria. If you would please investigate further in linguistic terms you would be probably surprised to discover that modern bulgarian language is a rather peculiar in the Slavic family partialy due to certain inheritance from the Bulgar language - you could refer to the wikipedia article at least. Now then I would ask you to show at least one official government document of what you seem to call the Sofia government before bringing accuastions that it labels Macedonians as Bulgarians. I can not stress enough how little do bulgarian people care how their neighbours choose to call themselves but what is unacceptable for the Sofia government is changing the hisotrical facts in order to create a nation myth which is essential in the modern Macedonian nation building. I do not wish to go through numerous historical disputes and accuasations of "stealing" hisotry but I have to point out that linguistically speaking Macedonian language is not recognized as such but it was officially regonized by the same Sofia government in a gesture of goodwill which is roughly the equivalent of the British government recognizing American english as a different language from the British english and yet that is strictly politics and there are numerous such examples Hindi/Urdu Malay/Indonesian Flemish/Dutch and so on. Now the relations between Macedonia and Bulgaria have become something of an item with Sofia government pictured as the big bully - well in fact the Skopje government has been bulling Sofia while increasing number of its citizens are accquiring Bulgarian citizenship (including memebers of the government) but that is a taboo topic in Macedonia. I as bulgarian am sick and tired of the accuasations against my country and nation when all we want is to preserve our history and identity and let me assure you we have strong independent such and to claim Salvs are all the same in not less sane then claiming Lathin Americans are all the same - so again we do not wish to claim others history or lands we simply try to preserve our hisotry. For all I care Macedonians can call themselves marsians and speak marsian - it is their right to determine their own identity. well why not? fmrafka 25 January 2006

Bulgarian statistics

Why is this page somehow so special that it is the only one not allowing estimates from nationmaster/CIA world fact book (which by the way are NOT direct wikipedia mirrors - only the encyclopedia of nationmaster is)? VMORO claims that he does not wish to allow my 6.2 million figure because it was self calculated - meaning I simply used a calculator to figure in the percent Bulgarian of the Bulgarian total population - as if that somehow doesnt reflect what the CIA world factbook was implying. He says its bad to include too many references yet has plenty of refrences there himself - what difference would one regularly visited reference make? Nearly all sources online say that roughly 84% of the roughly 7.5 million people in Bulgarians are Bulgarian (which would be made out to around 6.2-6.3 million --- not the 6.6 million stated on this statistics page. VMORO continuously refuses to admit the .3 million disparity. His explanations do not show me any reason why adding this would be in any way bad. Antidote 22:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Removing useful accurate information from this article

Please be aware! Several users are removing valid, accurate, and additional information being added to this article. I changed Bulgaria's population to 7,761,000 (2005), and pointed to the source: Estimates by the National Statistics Institute and Eurostat that can be found also here Demographics of Bulgaria. Someone changed it back to the old one. I also added extensive information about Bulgarian names, and someone removed ALL of the information without even a simple explanation. I thought Wikipedia was about presenting useful information to everyone not playing childish games. Thank you. --Vanka5 00:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but this article is about ethnic Bulgarian population, not total Bulgarian population. Antidote 07:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Frivolous tempering with data by User:Antidote/WP:OWN issue with User:VMORO

User:Antidote evidently thinks that I am a moron or may be he himself is a moron but I'll let you make your judgements for yourselves:

User:Antidote keeps quoting NationMaster, which represents an idiotic compilation of facts from Wikipedia (edition several months ago) and other sources, including the Factbook. If one opens Demographics of Bulgaria in NationMaster, one will see the wikipedia article 70 days exactly at the pointn when it was subject to vandalism by an anonomous user who frivolously (ha! it is not only Antidote who does such things but may be Antidote and anonymous are the same person???) tampered with the data from Census 2001. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much, Antidote for providing us with this extremely precious information. (Applause waited)

User:Antidote takes an estimate of the Factbook and calculates on his own ethnic distributions using the 2001 census up to the hundreds!!! How wise that is, my dear, I am thrilled!!! Has the thought that YOU MAY NOT DO OWN CALCULATIONS crossed your mind? Have you thought that ethnic distributions in 2001 may not be valid in 2005? What if the number of Bulgarians suddenly exploded? Or that it suddenly plunged? Ha???

So, the estimate of the Factbook... Some organisation based in Washington makes an estimation without giving any ground for its estimations, without being a statistics organization but User:Antidote thinks this is the best source he could take a 2005 estimate from. Well, the Factbook may be well-publiced but Brittney Spears is well-publicised, as well, and her music is shite. Look at these two links, the first one is the official estimate of Eurostat for 2005 [2] (7,761,000), the other one is an encyclopedia quoting the official estimate of the UN for 2003 [3] (7,897,000). These are REPUTABLE STATISTICS ORGANISATIONS and compared with them, the Factbook is worthless. Other questions, my dear?

Over the last couple of months, you have shown remarkable obstinacy to include moronic estimates and judgements of your own, not only here but also in other articles. I have been pointing out what I summarised above for several months in a row, are you so thick that you can't figure it out or what? And stop offering me cheap compromises - I make compromises when there are two angles of looking at the situation, not when someone offers me a cheap compilation of cooked up data. Get it your in mind that your edits will not pass. Because they won't. VMORO 00:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is no tempering with data here. All my data is sourced. The nationmaster estimates are NOT taken from Wikipedia, only their articles are...there's a difference. Your challenging "some organization in Washington" shows you are unwilling to reach a consensus in all cases. There are literally dozens of demographic articles online that talk about the dropping Bulgarian population. Here's one right here: [4] So this "StUpId estimate from Washington" is probably correct. I don't see how Bulgarians is subject to your opinion on the factbook but every single other nationality article on Wikipedia isn't? Hmm. Oh and WP:CIVIL. I say we get an unbiased opinion on whether or not it is fair to include these numbers. I will step down if most people don't agree with me. OK? Antidote

Also, I think this may be a case of WP:OWN. Antidote

User:VMORO is having problems with WP:OWN (as well as WP:CIVIL) on the article. He refuses to include the most recently estimated Bulgaria statistics for ethnic Bulgarians because he claims they are "self-calculated" from the 2001 percent of ethnic Bulgarians statistic. Here is a source stating the current 2005 calculated population [5]. However, nearly every other ethnic group article employs the most recent statistics from places like CIA World Factbook and others, and the use of the 2001 estimates ethnic Bulgarian population is not farflung because all demographers talk about ethnic Bulgarians being outbred by the minorities of the nation. Though USER:VMORO seems to be highly against including "estimated" statistics, he includes very farflung estimates from the Bulgarian Ministry -- yet doesn't include these lower estimate. A third opinion is needed to see whether or not these estimates should go in there. Either all estimates are removed from the page and only official data is added, or all estimates of verifiable sources are included. 10:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Question

I have been to Bulgaria a few times and many people there look like gypsies. Are these people ethnic Bulgarians?--81.37.18.88 12:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, if they look like gypsies, they're gypsies. It's easy to distinguish them from Bulgarians. File:Bulgaria flag large.png → Тодор Божинов / Todor Bozhinov → Talk 18:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian attitude to the macedonian nation

I was threatened with

Vandalism You are about to violate the 3RR rules on wikipedia. Please stop putting in false information that is denying the existence of Macedonians to another ethnic group, or you will be blocked from Wikipedia.

because I wrote information about bulgarian attitude to the macedonian nation. Such information is written in many other articles here such IMRO, Macedonians (ethnic group), etc. User, called Macedonia, obviously macedonian nationalist, blaimed me for absurds like racism, and systematically erases my information. Is this correct? This question is disputed and I stated that clearly, but this bulgarian attitude is fact and there are no reasons for erasion and threats!

P. s. The arguments of Macedonia: "sorry but your propaganda garbage isn't worth discussing now stop vandalizing articles"! Who is really vandalizing this article?!

The agression of the user called Macedonia is going on. It seems he/she doesn't want to accept the fact of existence of this bulgarian attitude. He/she doesn't want to diskuss but prefer to censor this information!

Besides this over 50 000 macedonian citizens already have bulgarian passports as ethnic bulgarians and more than 50 000 others wait to obtain bulgarian passport, but nevertheless according to official macedonian statistics there isn't even bulgarian minority in Republic of Macedonia.

You obviously have some issues. I accept your attitude towards the Macedonians but i'm afraid it isn't exactly the official Bulgarian attitude towards Macedonians today, but mabey 10 years ago it was. As you know, the Bulgarian government officially recognized a seperate Macedonian minority in the borders of Bulgaria in 2001, so your point of view is already false. Your attitude is of those of Bulgarian nationalists/propagandists like yourself. Your "Bulgarian" attitude does not belong in the list of numbers anyway because it does not explain anything (how are readers supposed to know its the "Bulgarian attitude"). Perhaps you could write how the Bulgarian attitude was towards Macedonia in the past but in the contents of the main articles, although this information will probably be highly irrelevant and erased. By puting in 1300000 Bulgarians live in the Republic of Macedonia, it implys false information that can be exteremly comfusing to the reader. --Macedonia 01:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some guidlines for you because it seems as though you are not to familiar with what to write and what not to write in Wikipedia

--Macedonia 01:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonia, please stop war against my information and your nationalistic aggression! Bulgaria as a democratic country recognizes the consciousness of every bulgarian citizen but not the macedonian nation as separate from bulgarians! Where is the difference - in Bulgaria there are more than 1 000 000 people with roots from all macedonian regions, 350 000 inhabit Pirin Macedonia, but all of them declare themselves as bulgarians, icluding THE SISTER OF THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA Kiro Gligorov, and only about 5000 people declare their nationality as macedonian! The selfconsciousness is something different from the recognition of a nation, for example some bulgarians declared themselves in last census as eskimo people, but are there real eskimo people in Bulgaria? Of course not, and Bulgaria still denies the existence of the separate macedonian language and nation. Shortly, the bulgarian position is: there is macedonian nation as political nation, but not as ethnic community, different and separate from bulgarian, ang macedonian literary language, created in 1945, is accepted as based on bulgarian dialects. Besides this the words macedonian and macedonians are traditionaly widely used in Bulgaria, but define just regional belonging.

P. s. I'm really surprised after the reactions of Macedonia. Example for my position - official Bulgaria still refuses to accept to sign any document, in which is mentioned that it is written in macedonian language. All bulgarian-macedonian treaties are signed with the formulation "the official language of the states", but not even a sheet of paper with the words "macedonian language"!

Still more, there are strong proofs, written by the academicians from the Macedonian academy of sciencies and arts MANU that macedonian national consciousness as separate from bulgarian is something new and is built on bulgarian fundament, first intelectual manifestations dates from 1930s-1940s and its mass spreading was product of the policy of communist Yugoslavia. Here is the example, written by macedonian academician Ivan Katardzhiev in the so called macedonian language: link. He clearly states: "All of our people named themselves as "bulgarians"..." (in macedonian: "Сите наши луѓе се именувале како „Бугари“...").

You don't seem to understand what i'm trying to say. This information that you have included does not belong in the numbers list. It belongs somewhere else in the article and mabey you can explain the situtation of the Bulgarian attitude towards Macedonians in the article, instead of just giving a number on the list. By puting a number on the list, I can go on the Macedonians (ethnic group) page and put 7.5 million - 8.5 million Macedonians since the Bulgarian article lists them as the same people. Also, the Macedonian attitude towards Bulgaria is that everyone in Pirin Macedonia is Macedonian, but on the Macedonians (ethnic group) number list there are only 5000 Macedonians in Bulgaria, instead of 350,000 because 5000 people said they were Macedonian in the census. No one said they were Bulgarian in the Macedonia on the census, so you can't put that 1300000 Bulgarians live in Macedonia, because all these people registered as Macedonians. Macedonia 05:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Conversation with a deaf person! In the Republic of Macedonia there are at least 50 000 people who possess bulgarian passports as ethnic bulgarians, among them are even some macedonian politicians, thousands of young macedonians study in bulgarian universities with subsidies for ethnic bulgarians, some macedonian citizens voted in bulgarian elections in the macedonian capital Skopje, etc., but THERE AREN'T ANY REGISTERED BULGARIANS IN THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA because of the fears and discriminations of the macedonian authorities. The paradoxical exception is The Union of the Bulgarians in Macedonia - there is such union, but there aren't officially registered bulgarians! So please don't blaim me for a racism, don't call my information "propaganda garbage", don't erase my words. Obviously the macedonian ethnic consciousness rapidly changes after 1991 such as the attitude to bulgarian past of the macedonian slavs but the official macedonian policy still treats bulgarian question as a threat like in the antibulgarian period after 1944.

And, yes, I could put special text about bulgarian attitude to the macedonian nation in the article too. But: STOP ERASION OF THE DATA FROM THE LIST! Bulgarian position is: all macedonian slavs in the Republic of Macedonia are bulgarians with the exception of the 40 000 serbs. It doesn't matter whether I support that attitude or not, but this is the bulgarian understanding!

So you claim that 50,000 Macedonians have Bulgarian citizenship, isn't that a big difference then the 1,300,000 number you were adding in the article. Also, hasn't it occured to you that all of these 50,000 Macedonians that applied for Bulgarian citizenship are from eastern Macedonia, Macedonians who are always crossing the border to buy cheaper goods from Blagoevgrad, or to visit their Macedonian relatives in other parts of Pirin Macedonia. Don't you think that becoming a Bulgarian citizen will be easier for crossing the border, esspecially with the disputes between the governments of R. of Macedonia and Bulgaria? The same applys for Macedonians in the north applying for Serbian citizenship, or Macedonians in the West applying for Albanian citizenship. Your claims are just based on nationalistic Bulgarian propaganda efforts implying that there is no Macedonian nation, period. This has no place in the article number list, so please stop adding it to the article or a reader might get really confused.

You are so hilarious my friend, need a passort to shop accross the border. :) Citizenship means something completely different than visa - business or tourist for that purpose. Bulgarian citizenship is granted on the basis of being proficient in the bulgarian language, as well as being able to demonstrate bulgarian origin through passports of parents/grandparents/grandgrandparents. Bulgarian citizenship also carries obligations which include military draft for males under the age of 27. So you claim that someone will choose to go through the military draft just because of the convenicence to shop or visit relatives in Bulgaria? I think it is just because they find greater economic opportunities in the country, but again, you never know what reasons people have in the back of their minds. FunkyFly 23:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear FunkyFly, in fact macedonian citizens don't need vizas to come in Bulgaria with their own macedonian passports so Macedonia is really funny! Besides that one of the biggest groups of macedonians with bulgarian passports live in the western Macedonia, around the city of Ochrid near albanian border.

This is the most outrageous remark I have heard so far besides your statement that 1,300,000 Bulgarians live in the Republic of Macedonia. I guess you don't have any relevant sources to prove this, or do you? Macedonia 15:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is one for starters. I must admit I did not know that myself and I'm rather surprised, but that just serves to emphasize my point that obtaining bulgarian citizenship has very little to do with shopping accross the border. FunkyFly 17:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's this? You could have just said no, I don't have any source to prove anything i'm saying Macedonia 22:40, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a document that clearly states that you do not need a visa to enter the country if you are a Macedonian citizen, neither do you need Bulgarian citizenship unless you plan on taking advantage of certain economic opportunities offered by the country, in plain language. FunkyFly 22:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, you just proved my point right there. "neither do you need Bulgarian citizenship unless you plan on taking advantage of certain economic opportunities offered by the country" :-) Macedonia 23:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah well, no point in discussing with trolls. FunkyFly 23:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need for insults. You simply proved that Macedonians don't need Bulgarian citizenship UNLESS they "plan on taking advantage of certain economic opportunities offered by the country". This will put an end to those senseless reverts that I've been trying to remove. Thanks again - Macedonia 23:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jeez, you still have not realized that I do not argue about the edits of this anonymous user but about your blatant statement about citizenship. Get over it. FunkyFly 23:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, simply we shouldn't discuss about this - Macedonians are NOT declaring themselves as Bulgarians and that's it. We really should know make the difference between propaganda and reality. Cheers, Bomac 01:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics including Macedonians Abroad

The Greek upper estimate and the Agency for Bulgarians Abroad estimates include ethnic Macedonians as Bulgarians abroad, therefore the numbers are being replaced by more reliable census #s. 65.9.115.185 20:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Antidote's removal of the new picture

Why did you decide to remove the new picture? Whom do you refer to as "Hristov"? Is it "Christo Yavashev"? And why do you think he is not representative? Smartech 20:32, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

John Atanasoff was not born in Bulgaria. You can return the image as long as you provide copyright tags and sources for the last four images. But frankly, I don't see how a B-level artists like Christo Yavashev is representative of Bulgarians; doesn't matter though. Antidote

John Atanasoff has has acknowledged his bulgarian origin. I do not think it is appropriate of you to qualify someone as A or B artist. And I will provide necessary licenses and reinstate the image. Smartech 23:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The highest picture of the right are mainly Macedonians figures stolen by Bulgarian propaganda, it's a shame to steal.