Talk:Ranjit Lal Jetley

Another Point of View

OK, have been asked as an Indian military officer to comment on this issue, let me place things in perspective.

• Maj Gen RL Jetley is indeed notable in Indian military history and his accomplishments are of general knowledge to me. He innovated something which helped us defeat American supplied armoured fighting vehicles (first time done since World War II) and helped change the course of our conflict. Unfortunately, he is not a flambouyant commander but a non-descript boffin.
• The entry is obviously made by a well-wisher wanting to place his achievements on record. This person is obviously not informed about verifiability, need to cite sources and NPOV.
• The achievements of any person who has done what Maj Gen Jetley has done for his country (disregarding the adoring prose) would unquestionably make him noteable and worthy of being in public knowledge and hence written about in Wikipedia. He is not an inconsequential person - his achievements changed the face of Indian military history. Hence I disagree with the Crazy Russian's opinion that Jetley is not 'noteable'.
• Overall, the article does have flaws which need correction :-

• Lack of verifiable sources.
• Lack of sourced image.
• Lack of overall context.
• Lack of NPOV.
• Poor language.

• I think, we need to remove AfD for a while, let me get at the article for a couple of months. A couple of months?!!! Yes, a couple of months. Sorry folks, third world info-access is not so good as of now, I have to physically go to libraries, meet people, write snail mail etc. If the Crazy Russian still feels after the time that the article still does not meet Wikipedia standards, then I will personally delete the wiki, if he logs so in my talk page.
• My subjective opinion - All countries have important people, events and history - but depth of penetration and sophistication in information movement is grossly unequal. So are language skills of non-native English speakers. Many of my countrymen write reasonably grammatic English but are hopelessly clueless about appropriateness, context, NPOv and such higher issues. Sadly they are literate but uneducated. So does the writer of this article appear to me.
• Compare the relevance of average material placed on day to day basis by Americans and say Indians (just see AfD talk pages for the kind of non-info which is being deleted from people of both countries for comparison). In my country we are nowhere near completing placing on Wikipedia the richness of our history, culture, natural heritage and people.
• Conversely, it is being 'assumed' by a few people from such info-access rich countries that events, articles or information about these info poor countries is 'less important' or 'noteable'. Crazy Russian's action of placing prod and a re-AfD without even the courtesy of placing appropriate notice on the talk page is symbolic of this.
• In countries like mine, even a privileged person like me has info lag due to lack of or intermittent access to internet. I've answered my emails months later on occassion. I can well imagine a situation where the majority of my work would be deleted without me even coming to know of it the next time I log onto wikipedia. Sorry folks, but all 'wikipedians are equal, but some are more equal than others'.
• Any person in the world can arbitrarily place these merge or prod or AfD without any stake in the information or its relevance or even without taking the trouble to find out about it. It takes herculean effort to get that tag removed. A case of guilty unless proved innocent.
• An issue on record -

• List of butterflies of India (Riodinidae) had a merge tag placed a day after I made the page. This was reverted after much effort by me.
• List of butterflies of India (Pieridae) had a delete debate with result keep.
• List of British butterflies has had virtually no issue. The activity with respect to that list or its daughter articles is fractional as compared to the Indian lists. In fact seeing their seeming inaction, I have just started becoming a major contributer to the daughter articles of that list.
• A list exists called List of British butterflies (alphabetical by English name) which serves little useful purpose other then repeating whats in the first list. That too for only 60 species totally for that country! The talk page is still a red link! No objection to that wiki which obviously violate WP guidelines.
• Lists of Texas and Oklahoma butterflies similarly are bare lists and have red-link talk pages. No delete or merge tags that I see for those pages!

• Well, I have over-reacted but the casualness of Crazy Russian to other people's legacy touched a very raw nerve. He wouldn't have reacted so casually to a biography from his own country.
• Being a focussed large scale contributer to a domain, I intensely dislike travelling editors who come and pronounce arbitrary judgement on articles without in depth consideration of what's involved. (This is in general and not with regard to Crazy Russian).

Unrepentingly yours, AshLin 16:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The Crazy Russian desists and thanks you for your effort. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 16:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you should parse it severely. Article should be 1/3 as long. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Perfect description

AshLin, that's a textbook description of the differences between highly-connected, mass-publishing people/cultures/countries and the rest of the world. Since we now all love each other, would you guys mind if I possibly reproduced some of this discussion if I ever mount an education exercise in WP:BIAS? Not, I hasten to add, because I think Crazy Russian did anything wrong, but because some of the other comments in the AfD were v illuminating (like JzG, whom I generally respect, saying that tagging for a month was obviously enough). I think a lot of Wikipedians just don't understand the problems. JackyR 21:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL... go for it. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 21:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

To Jetley's family

Don't go away! We need to talk. First of all, you're right, this article does need references. Please, go out and actively seek more published material (newspapers? regimental histories?) we can use for this. The article survived this time, but might not in a year's time...

Secondly, your picture at Commons was deleted because you hadn't given copyright info. I would encourage you to upload it again, but with all the info. It's a good idea to watch your work at Wikipedia fairly closely for a week or two after, as this is the period when comments or changes are most likely. Some deletion processes take only 5 days, so you have to catch any notice fairly quickly.

Thirdly, now you've got an account here, why not chip in to other articles on similar subjects? While looking for refs on RLJ, you might find material and refs which will improve other articles. You'll also be less open to the inevitable charge of using WP merely as publicity for your family member.

Hope to see you around - if there's anything I can help with, feel free to ask! JackyR | Talk 09:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Info from Jetley family & Friends

I've moved the following from the article page: will need to be integrated and followed up. Thanks to Jetley family & friends for providing. JackyR | Talk 19:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC) From Major General Ranjit Lal Jetley's Family & Friends - He is alive now 83. His family is in USA and India. Some references as per framed photos, files and documents are listed below.

(1) Grant of Regular Commission in Indian Land forces letter from GHQ Military Secretary's Branch (IC-719), dated 05-July-1946.

(2) Two Commendation cards from chiefs of Army Staff - One for "Mounting of 75mm HV Gun on the Sherman Tank" and other "Mounting of 4.5inch Naval Gun on 4.7inch mounting".

(3) Army orders supporting the above Honours and Awards for new ideas and inventions. Ministry of Defence Letter granting two cash awards for the same invention and ideas.

(4) One Commendation card from Ministry of Defence signed by Secretary, Department of Defence Production "For Technical expertise in the field of armaments in identifying the components and nature of certain ammunition".

(5) Operation service - 17 medals including Burma Star, mentioned in Despatches, GS medal w/c South East Asia -1945-1946, GS Medal 1947 w/c 'J&K' 47, PASCHIMI star.

(6) Qualifications & Certificates

(a) Certificate of Graduation from National Defence College (NDC) new Delhi, dated 21st November 1970.

(b) Certificate of attendance at Bofors Training course November to December 1971.

(c) Fellowship of Institution of Engineers (INDIA), 15th Feb-1973.

(d) Fellowship of Institute of Quality Assurance (UK), 3rd Dec-1975.

(e) Great Britain & North Ireland, Ministry of Civil Aviation, Certificate of competence and license to fly private flying machines.

(f) Letter granting MBE and medal to his father.

(g) Military Qualifications -

   (i) Graduate from Staff College 6th Course awarded symbol 'PSC' dated, 31-July-1953 (Authority of Army Order).
   (ii) Technical Staff course - awarded symbol 'PTSC' dated, 01-April-1961 (Authority of Army Order).
   (iii) Director of Studies at the IAT, March'64 to April'65, awarded symbol 'PTSC†' (Authority of Army Order).

(h) Substantive Major General from 20-Sep-1978 (Gazette of India, Notification No: 542 of 2nd March-1979).

(7) Documents

(a) Parchments of Commission

   (i) From Viceroy of India for Emergency Commission from 5th-July-1942, Registered No.: 470A.
   (ii) After Independence same as above from President of India, Shri Rajendra Prasad.

(b) Record of Service Officers - Booklet issued on retirement by Adjutant General at Army HQ.

(c) Original letter from Raja Ramanna, then Scientific Advisor to the Minister of Defence and secretary, DRDO for making a mark in the history of R&D for design and production of 105mm Gun prototype.

(d) Copy of a letter from the Naval Chief to Army Chief recommending a formal commendation award to Lt.Col. Jetley for mounting 4.5 inch Naval Gun on 4.7 inches Naval mounting.

(e) Appreciation letters from senior officers of the Army (General Staff), DRDO & DGI organisations for submitting ideas for the improvement of armament stores.

(f) Letters of Appreciation by seniors for books written by him and from the military training branch for compiling a pamphlet.

It may be appreciated that we have placed this write-up in the encyclopedia merely to illustrate the contributions made by an individual from the R&D (now DRDO) of the Ministry of Defence for the betterment of armament stores without foreign help. May this be a guide to those to come.

We shall thank people for reading it.

Note - Several photographs are available in the family room, some showing the 105mm gun prototype being exhibited at the Pargati Maidan Defence exhibition, New Delhi to the cabinet ministers, secrataries and foreign dignitaries.

• It would be wonderful if you could scan the two best of these and upload them to Wikipedia Commons, giving full copyright details and a description of what each picture shows. Feel free to ask if you have any Qs at all. Cheers. JackyR | Talk 19:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Jacky R thanks for your kind suggestion. I have just obtained the photos so that I could contribute to this discussion. As suggested I have uploaded the Photographs to Wikipedia Commons.

• 
  Photograph 1

105mm light field gun prototype being shown at the Pragati Maidan Defence exhibition, New Delhi. Maj. Gen Jetley (Retired) is demonstrating the gun designed by his team to the Defence Minister Late Shri Jagjivan Ram and other VVIPS. Including front row (L-R) Mr. Menon Secretary DRDO, Mr. Bhattacharya Chairman Ordnance Factories Board, Sheik Abdula Chief Minister J&K, Mr. Jagjivan Ram Defence Minister and other Cabinet Ministers & Secretaries. Copyright @ Fotofield 153 Bhagat singh market, New Delhi 110001 Tel: 345813.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Photograph1.JPG?uselang=en

• Photograph 2
  Photograph 2

105mm light field gun prototype, in firing position http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IndianLightFieldGun105mm.jpg

• 
  Photograph 3

Jacky R, Major General RL Jetley (Retired) is now 86 and has been made a founder member of The Chartered Quality Institute in the grade of Fellow. (Copy of certificate attached)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Photograph3.JPG

--Amitsrma (talk) 14:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Unpublished info from article

• Extract from a DO No. 92957/A/SA from Dr. Raja Ramanna Scientific Adviser to the Minister of Defense dated July 16, 1979.

“I on behalf of the DRDO would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation on the eve of your retirement, for the hard and dedication work put in by you throughout your long service of about 36 years. I may specially commend your important contribution to the army in the proto-type production of IFG Mk II. This is indeed an important milestone in the DRDO activities.”

• Extract from letter No. DY/1524 from Vice-Admiral RD Katari, Chief of The Naval Staff dated 6th September, 1961 to Chief of the Army Staff regarding “Commissioning of 4.5” equipment at Balasore - Special Commendation”

“It has been brought to my notice that in achieving this the exceptional skill, initiative and ingenuity displayed by the Lieutenant Colonel R.L. Jetley, who is at present serving in the R & D Organization as Superintendent, Proof and Experimental Establishment, Balasore, played a considerable part. In my opinion, this is an achievement worth of formal commendation. If you agree with this view, it is requested that you take suitable action.”

Further details

For further details about General Jetley's invention, please also see:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/india.htm

For pictures and utility —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.36.185 (talk) 06:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)