Talk:Aristotle

uper lip This article should be cleaned up to replace fancy quotes (”) with straight ones (") in accordance with WP:STYLE. Brighterorange 14:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Russellian bias

As someone already pointed, the whole business of the evil influence of Aristotle in saintly Science should be revised; or at least, discussed. It was quite fashionable back in the day, when men of rather limited learning, such as Einstein (who thought Aristotle's influence in natural sciences lasted for almost 2000 years...), or limited and ass-intended, such as the disgustingly egocentric Bertrand Russell, proclaimed it; although Émile Boutroux had eloquently written against that well before their age. The physical, and general, views of Aristotle don't really influence Western thought until Pietro Pomponazzi. Scholastic Aristotle is very, very limited and transformed. This anti-scientific Aristotle is a travesty created in the Renaissance (ironically, the age of the aforementioned thinker), and the influence of the true one doesn't really start until much earlier than Galileo. Of course I'm overlooking some issues, but for now this is just intended to be food for thought.

Aristotle's Cave

While I was visiting Veria, Greece I was taken to the location where Aristotle was supposed to have taught Alexander the Great. I'm not adding anything to the main article because I can't find any more information about this location, but I have pictures here and here if anyone manages to find some information.

Aristotle taught the prince of Macedonia in a cave? Brutannica 21:38, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's what my uncle who took me there and the signs around the cave said. This is why I didn't add anything to the main article since I don't have firm information. Rufus210 01:33, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would think signs at the site would be pretty firm information. Brutannica 21:03, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In any case stating in the article that there are such signs should be safe even if—unlikely—what they say turns out to be false. Rafał Pocztarski 00:05, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bibliography

Added a bibliography with links to existing texts. Made a few other minor changes.

GS

Unfortunately it looks like VT have had a reshuffle of their site: a couple of the links I tried didn't work. -- Nairobiny

The VT links were to their "Project ERIS" -- which has been defunct for about six years or more, although you'll still find links to it all over the net. Fortunately, I saved the whole project years ago, and converted much to HTML, so I've been able to replace all the vt links with links to eBooks@Adelaide. Pamplemousse 06:38, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Aristotle and bees

I will let someone else find an appropriate, if any, place for the following text in the article:

• Aristotle was the first to describe the "dancing" of bees, "on reaching the hive they throw off their load [aposeiontai 'they shake themselves'], and each bee on his [sic] return is accompanied by three or four companions," and the first to classify dolphins with mammals, "The dolphin, when taken out of water, gives a squeak and moans in the air...For this creature has a voice, for it is furnished with a lung nad a windpipe; but its tongue is not loose, nor has it lips, so as to give utterance to an articulate sound." Quoted in Essays in Zoosemiotics by T.A. Sebeok, ISSN 08385858

Hmm... that is an interesting little bit. I don't know where it would go, either, but I hope it finds a home someday.--JECompton 05:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Greek form of name

I've added the Greek form of the name 'Aristotle', both in Greek characters and romanisation. I've also remove the mention of the form in Italian and other languages, which I don't think is of interest to English speakers, and is covered by romanised form of the Greek. m.e. 09:51, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Clean-up

I was wondering if I could really clean up this page a bit, specifically under the section titled "Biography." It's long and informative, but in my opinion it needs some editing. Some of the sentences are structured in a format that seems outdated and certainly is not used on most Wikipedia pages. So I was wondering if I could 'get permission' from someone to edit the section, keeping the info, maybe adding some of my own, but changing the sentence structure.

Second, I think it would be a good idea to open a section discussing his actual ideas and theories instead of just methodology and influence. It would have to be divided into subsections like 'Politics,' 'Physics,' 'Embryology,' and 'Ethics,' and that way a lot of miscellaneous information, like the bit on zoology posted above, could be fit into the article properly. Unfortunately, I'd need a little help on this since a) I'm not an expert on Aristotle and b) I'm very inexperienced at Wikipedia contributions. Any volunteers? Brutannica 00:28, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All right, so so far no one's "volunteered." I won't do part 2 now, but I will go ahead and rewrite the Biography. If anyone objects, they can revert and please post your complaint. Brutannica 19:20, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Form of Greek names

In what sense are numeric values more "correct" than mnemonics in entering non-Latin characters? Please see Wikipedia:Special_characters, which specifically recommends menomics, as does Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page#The_wiki_markup Dandrake 19:19, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

See Greek letters in Aristotle entry on my talk page for a good explanation. Rafał Pocztarski 19:44, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I see you have reverted the reversion. I am confused. Should I change it back to named HTML entities on pl:Arystoteles as well? Rafał Pocztarski 20:15, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, now I see a sense in which the numeric values are correct! Or they seem to be; it still doesn't seem clear. Anyway, if there really are no mnemonics that correctly give breathings and all, then then one would have to use numerics, at least for those cases.

This is definitely out of my depth. I'm not going to interfere more, now that I understand the problem. Perhaps my reversion should be reverted!

But it would be a really good thing if the people involved in getting Greek text into the articles would go over to Wikipedia:Special_characters and start a discussion on its Discussion page. It may be recommending a policy that just doesn't work, and a lot of future trouble could be prevented if it were fixed. Dandrake 01:05, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

There is an extended discussion at Wikipedia talk:Unicode about the use of Unicode for Greek letters in Wikipedia. My apologies to Rafał Pocztarski for reverting his changes — I erroneously assumed that the named entities created mathematical symbols different from the Greek letters [I was confusing it with TeX] — but the first character should properly be Ἀ Ἀ (1F08;GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI), which is different from Α Α — Ἀ has a psili also known as spiritus lenis or soft breathing. m.e. 11:07, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Academe, Academia, Academy...

Maybe it would be a little clearer if links would point to Academy (the one meant in the article) instead of Academe (which redirects onto Academia anyway)? --Oop 00:37, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Oh. O.K.... Brutannica 05:08, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Biography

As an example of Aristotle's influence on Alexander, it could be mentioned that while Stageira was destroyed earlier by Macedonia, it was rebuilt at Aristotle's request. Though not important in history, it is a significant detail. --Oop 12:56, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

What time frame are we talking about here? Brutannica 07:32, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

According to Stageira, it was both destroyed and rebuilt by Philip. Plutarch says it was destroyed by Philip, but Plinius Elder and Diogenes Laertius confirm it was Alexander; I'm afraid it may be impossible to find exact dates. --Oop 22:04, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a bad idea if you got some more details. Brutannica 06:27, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Diogenes Laertius says: "Who knows?" I haven't got Strabo or Plutarch right now, but I'll try to look it up. Still, [1] says Philip sent Aristotle back to Stageira in 343BC; [2] (passage 4) (though generally a controversial source - cf. the hypothesis of Aristotle's Aiolian origins -, various authors are summarized there) claims Stageira was destroyed in 340BC. Most of general treatises, though, do not find this detail worth mentioning at all. --Oop 23:44, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

"Lexikon der Antike" (Leipzig, 1979) accuses Philip in destruction of Stageira in 349BC. I suppose the fact could be mentioned in the article, but there seems to be no consensus on the date.

Also, in the passage about education of Alexander, it could be mentioned that while most of the authors estimate Aristotle's influence on Alexander as quite noticeable, Bertrand Russell wrote most likely Alexander considered Aristotle an old pedantic fool. It is not a general opinion nor well-founded, but still a notorious one. --Oop 23:49, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Alexander is also said to have sent specimens of rare animals to aristotle (I think this comes from Arrian)Lamename Cheesestring Rodriguez 10:39, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Picture

There two better pictures of A.

(a) at http://www.klima-luft.de/steinicke/ngcic/persons/aristoteles.htm

(b) at the french A.-article

I'm not so sure the klima-luft.de picture is much of an improvement; what's more, there's no copyright statement (this is a bad thing). The picture illustrating the French article is both sourceless and licenseless; but then, so is the one used here. I think we should leave the picture we already have until we find one that's known to be compatible with the GNUFDL. -- Hadal 07:29, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's not much of an improvement, but it is an improvement. I think the French picture is very similar, just as a bust. Brutannica 02:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

His works littered with mistakes for his failure to follow his own precept?

I think this is an exaggeration. Please give more examples of his mistakes if you have time. Andries 19:52, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Further reading

I do think there should be some general introductions to the topic. Some of the readers might want to know more and be looking for sth like this.

Fine, but let's work it out here before adding it to the article. As I said before it is potentially the whole of philosophy and can give rise to silly, unnecessary debates. And sign your posts by adding four tildes. - Simonides 21:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Suggest 18 possible wiki links and 7 possible backlinks for Aristotle.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Aristotle article:

• Can link Greek philosophy: ...eeded in bringing together the works of his predecessors in Greek philosophy, and how he pursued, either personally or through others, h... (link to section)
• Can link great library: ...d [[Strabo]] asserted that he was the first to accumulate a great library. ... (link to section)
• Can link country house: ... third time against philosophy. He took up residence at his country house at [[Chalcis]], in [[Euboea]], and there he died the follow... (link to section)
• Can link average height: ...im as sharp and keen of countenance, and somewhat below the average height. His character (as revealed by his writings, his will (whic... (link to section)
• Can link Platonism: ... enemies and rivals, grateful towards his benefactors. When Platonism ceased to dominate the world of Christian speculation, and ... (link to section)
• Can link laws of physics: ...enon of the natural world,which include: motion, light, the laws of physics. Many centuries later these subjects would later become the... (link to section)
• Can link modern science: ...turies later these subjects would later become the basis of modern science, as studied through the [[scientific method]]. The term ''p... (link to section)
• Can link fine arts: ...cs; by poetical, he means the study of poetry and the other fine arts; while by theoretical philosophy he means physics, mathemat... (link to section)
• Can link logical reasoning: ...ul empirical investigation, but often drifted into abstract logical reasoning, with the result that his work was littered with conclusion... (link to section)
• Can link empirical evidence: ...rk was littered with conclusions that were not supported by empirical evidence; for example, his assertion that objects of different mass ... (link to section)
• Can link middle ages: ... was later refuted by [[Galileo Galilei|Galileo]]. # In the middle ages, roughly from the 12th century to the 15th century, the phi... (link to section)
• Can link 15th century: ... # In the middle ages, roughly from the 12th century to the 15th century, the philosophy of Aristotle became firmly established dogm... (link to section)
• Can link empirical methods: ... themselves for the discovery of modern scientific laws and empirical methods.... (link to section)
• Can link On Interpretation: ...es. Their volumes are listed below: *Volume I. Categories. On Interpretation. Prior Analytics ISBN 0-674-99359-4... (link to section)
• Can link Prior Analytics: ...re listed below: *Volume I. Categories. On Interpretation. Prior Analytics ISBN 0-674-99359-4... (link to section)
• Can link William Hamilton: ...library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8ph/ *'''Poetics''', trans. by William Hamilton Fyfe (HTML at Perseus)... (link to section)
• Can link Benjamin Jowett: ...text?lookup=aristot.+pol.+1252a *'''Politics''', trans. by Benjamin Jowett... (link to section)
• Can link John Henry: ...library.adelaide.edu.au/a/a8rh/ *'''Rhetoric''', trans. by John Henry Freese (HTML at Perseus)... (link to section)

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

• In Islam and Judaism, can backlink Aristotelianism: ...h and Muslim Peripatetics stopped short in their respective Aristotelianism whenever there was danger of wounding orthodox religion....
• In Islamic philosophy, can backlink Aristotelianism: ...l-Farabi, and Avicenna, and Arab thinker, al-Kindi combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with other ideas introduced through Islam....
• In Alexandrian school of anatomy, can backlink Aristotelian philosophy: ...e day, and initiated particularly into the mysteries of the Aristotelian philosophy. In an order somewhat whimsical he afterwards studied phil...
• In Emunoth ve-Deoth, can backlink Aristotelian philosophy: ...ia offers four proofs; three of these show the influence of Aristotelian philosophy, which may be traced also elsewhere in this author's writin...
• In Gerald Eaton, can backlink The Philosopher: ...that was made by James McCollum and Jason Levine, also from The Philosopher Kings....
• In Hasdai Crescas, can backlink Aristotelianism: ...the Lord'' became a classical Jewish refutation of medieval Aristotelianism, and a harbinger of the scientific revolution in the 16th c...
• In Spirits in Bondage, can backlink The Philosopher: ...III. Satan Speaks :XIV. The Witch :XV. Dungeon Grates :XVI. The Philosopher...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:21, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

cosmology, plenum, elements and motion

I am by no means an expert on Aristotle but I noticed that there is no mention here concerning some of his theories about cosmology, plenum (and void), the five elements, and the various motions that the elements adhere to. I would think that these things would be worth mentioning but I am ill-suited to fill it in myself. Just a suggestion.

List of Works; "On Xenophanes Zeno and Gorgias"

this short (spurious) writing IS actually included in the Corpus Aristotelicum, and is published on p. 974a of Bekker's edition (right before the Metaphysics). I don't know of any specific writing on Melissus. --zuben 22:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I was wondering, too, whether we could suppress "Major" in the "Major Works" heading just above the list of COMPLETE works!--zuben 22:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the people need to know

Possibly the most over-rated thinker ever to grace humanity:- a morally repugnant and simplistic man, whose nonsense padded greatest hits are valuable only in their virtue as mildly absorbent bog roll. Aristotle offers to the modern thinker what Vanilla Ice offered to the discerning music lover, a man whose greatest achievement is considered to be the dragging out of 1 simple phrase (everything in moderation) over several hundred pages. Perhaps more amazing than the fact he eluded public ridicule in his own time is that scholars around theworld are still content in massaging his swollen dead ego. The man who has contributed to the below is testament :---194.75.129

Thank you, 194.75.129. You have indeed informed the people of something.--JECompton 05:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

someone should FIX this

The depiction of Aristotelian science is a parody, and quite false; Darwin considered Aristotle the greatest biologist before Linnaeus and an actual reading of his biological works proves that he was a consummate observationalist. The idea that you can learn how the world works by reason without experiment is from PLATO, not Aristotle, and Aristotle argued AGAINST such a view.

Homosexuality

This is not a particularly important issue, especially considering the influence this great man had on our world, but wasn't Aristotle homosexual? I had heard this from a teacher once, and assumed it to be common knowledge - apparently not. Does anyone know if this is true (or, indeed does anyone care!).

User:A.K.A.47 (not signed in). 18:12, 7th September

Well, this can of worms isn't really a secret, so here goes... I couldn't find any particular information about Aristotle, but he lived in a society in which pederasty was legal and common. Alexander the Great and Plato, a student and teacher of his respectively, both had known pederastic relationships (though not with Aristotle). See also historical pederastic couples, which has a section on Ancient Greece. Aristotle had a son, Nicomachus, so he definitely wasn't exclusively homosexual. WhiteC 02:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

In the past I left a note on Talk:Alexander_the_Great#aristotle_on_homosexuality.2C_again about Talk:Alexander_the_Great#Reversion. While Alexander might (or might not) had homosexual relationships, it is sure that Aristotle didn't. Nicomachean Ethics, were dedicated to his son, and there he expressed his opinion of how Nicomachus should live. +MATIA ☎ 18:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I know that Aristotle had a wife and son, ie: a heterosexual relationship. There is no evidence that he had a homosexual relationship, but given the ancient Greek attitudes, it remains a possibility--that is all I was saying.

The Nicomachean Ethics does not discuss sexuality at all and may have been addressed to his son. Perhaps more likely is the possibility that it was addressed to all students at the Lyceum. It was compiled from a series of lectures Aristotle gave: the compilers may have dedicated the series to Nicomachus because Nicomachus had inherited the Lyceum from Aristotle.

WhiteC 00:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It's not quite true that the Nicomachean Ethics never discusses sexuality. He includes sexual pleasure in his discussion of moderation; he conclusion is that we have to strike a balance between too much and too little sexual pleasure. With regards to homosexuality, in his discussion of friendship, Aristotle does give quite a bit of attention to the relationship between 'lover' and 'beloved' (that is, the pederastic relationship you have all been talking about). He argues that because the older man wants pleasure, and the youth wants other benefits, their friendship can't last as long, or be based as deeply on the participants' personalities, as perfect, "virtue" friendship.

Yes, you're right. (my excuse for getting this wrong is...) It can be difficult to tell what sorts of relationships Aristotle is talking about. He isn't very explicit about differences between sexual and nonsexual friendship, or distinguishing between heterosexual and pederastic love. WhiteC 17:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This illustrates Greek attitudes generally. love between men was more idealised than that between men and women, and there was no ditinction between 'homosexuals' and 'hetrosexuals'. look at the 'friendships' between Patroclus and Achilles or Alexander and Hephaistion. Lamename Cheesestring Rodriguez 10:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

pupil/teacher of

Socrates was the teacher of Plato, who was the teacher o Aristotle, who was the teacher of Alexander the Great. Interesting isn't it? Any suggestions for a more prety way to write it? +MATIA ☎ 18:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Ethics expansion, article reorganization and possible article split

I have significantly expanded the ethics section of the article (including a reference) and made some other organizational changes. Specifically, the his philosophy needed to be segmented into metaphysics, epistemology and ethics. I also added a see also section and moved the mid-article see also listings down to it.

The article is now over the recommended page limit. Maybe the three parts of his philosophy should be split out as their own articles? If anyone agrees, I'd be glad to do this. Uriah923 05:02, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Until this reorganization, the main article on Aristotelian ethics was Nicomachean Ethics. I believe that it should stay there unless someone thinks that there are significant differences or additions to Aristotle's ethics that can not be found mostly in the NicEth, but in his other works (such as Eudemian Ethics). Removal of most of the ethics section to NicEth would reduce the new length of this article considerably.

Many of your additions would be welcome over there, or could be merged over there. Other bits duplicate things which are already over there, but it always helps to have several people look and try to find the best way of explaining things.

Some parts sound really good but I'm just not sure where they come from, and could use a reference. The 'Developing Ethics' section is one of these. Anyway, I'd be glad to have your help over there. WhiteC 07:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is what I propose. Take the information I've added here and the general details from the Nicomachean Ethics page and combine them into Aristotelian ethics. Leave the specific information (the "Overview" section) on the Nico page there as a subpage of the general ethics page. I think that would make more sense going from very general (Aristotle) to one subset of his philosophy (Aristotelian ethics) to a book that teaches this subset (Nicomachean Ethics). What do you think? If you're ok with it, I'll make the changes and then we can tweak.

Btw, most of the information I added is from the reference I provided in the same edit. Uriah923 16:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to go for it. It really makes a lot of sense. Uriah923 00:16, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. Let me know what you think. Uriah923 05:16, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks good. You managed to get the appropriate level of detail into each article. I can't find your bit on 'Developing Ethics' in NicEth 10.7, though--did I miss some other reference?

Never mind, found it in 10.9  :-) WhiteC 16:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me, too. Good job, Uriah! Without a closer look, though, I almost wish the ethics on this page could be trimmed down even more. I would like it even more if the Metaphysics section were split, or moved to that work's page--it is very informative as well, but a little long for my taste...

Body & Soul

Im not very knowledgable about Aristotle (or wikipedia, for that matter!), but perhaps it would be useful to have a section for Aristotle’s concept of the soul and its relation to the body? There is a bit squeezed into the "Aristotle's ethics" part, but there is more that could be discussed...

deleted paragraphs about Plato and Socrates

The paragraphs that were removed by two users (see link), served the purpose to compare Aristotle with Plato and Socrates and I think that they should be restored. +MATIA ☎ 10:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Potentiality and actuality

I just finished a requested article on Aristotle's theory of potentialiy and actuality. I'd like to know what you think, and if you think it could be linked to this article. --Dave Meta 16:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It has to be linked.--FocalPoint 11:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Metaphysics or Physics?

Nearly all of the content of the section titled "Aristotle's metaphysics" discusses topics that he treats in detail in the work traditionally called the Physics, not the work traditionally called the Metaphysics. (Aristotle does mention the four causes in the Metaphysics, but he refers the reader to the Physics for a detailed discussion.) This is, it seems to me, a potential source of confusion, so perhaps the section should be titled "Aristotle's Physics" (and references by Bekker number for the quotations would be nice). Also, it's a shame not to have any discussion of at least the subect matter of the Metaphysics on the main page (namely, the problem of first principles, which he solves quite differently in the Metaphysics than in the Topics [the comment about endoxa in the opening of the article should probably also be revised: Aristotle would have empatically denied that in general he was interested in "non-contradiction" and that he wasn't interested in "Truth"], the problem of substance [which he solves by rethinking form and matter as actuality and potentiality, respectively], and the problem of theology, as well as some miscellaneous comments about other philosophers and some less influential material on mathematical questions [number as form, &c.]). If this sounds good, or at least doesn't sound objectionable, to everyone, I'll make some changes along these lines when next I drop by this page. Good work thus far! RobinJ 00:49, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Plato and Aristotle's Metaphysical Dualism

Aritotles was the first truly cosmopolitan thinker. He was interested in alsomt everything. He studied at Ploto's Academy. Aristotle's philosophy is to see it as a development of what plato began. Aristotle rejected Plato's metaphysical dualism, namely Plato's separation of the Form from the material world. Plato's primary reality was the unchanging world of Form that exists apart from the world of particular things. Aristotle beleieved he could avoid introducing this unnecessary duplication of the one and only world that exists and still explain everything Plato tried to explain with his separate Forms. The central issue in Aristotle's disagreement with Plato's theory of the Form was Plato's insistence on thier separate exsistance. Aristotle continued to believe that Forms or universal exist, and he believed that the Form are the only proper objects of human knowledge. Aristotle brought Plato's Forms down to earth. He brought Plato's two worlds tpgerther. Plato's primary reality was the separate world of the Forms and Aristotle's primary reality was the world of paticular. Plato's thinking was always directed upward the ideal world, Aristotle's attention was directed toward this world, one benefit of his approach is the extent to which it encourages the development of scientific thinking. Like Plato's Form, Aristotle's Form is an unchanging essence. But unlike Plato's, Aristotle's Form is an essential part of the substance it composes. Source from "Life's Ultimate Questions" Ronald H. Nash