Talk:Ganas
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Article locked due to edit warring
The two main contributors to this article both want the same thing - a balanced and accurate article on Ganas. However, as they are locked in an ongoing edit dispute despite a warning, I have locked the article from editing for one week to allow time to cool down. This talkpage will remain open, and the option is there for the main contributors to work together on a solution, though I would suggest a complete break for the week, and I will come back in a week's time to oversee a discussion as to the best way forward. I will, though, echo BelovedFreak's comments, that this is not a topic I have much interest in, nor is it a significant topic, so I do not wish to spend a lot of time working on it. I am prepared to give some of my time to help work toward a solution, but if the main contributors are not willing to co-operate in any way, or prove difficult, or this becomes tiresome and messy, then I will withdraw. Is that understood? SilkTork *Tea time 11:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
- Before you withdraw will you refer the matter to appropriate venue for resolution? I am not getting much response from attempts at dispute resolution, I suspect because most share your and BelovedFreak's sentiments. Would you be able to get other editors involved? From what I have seen Marelstrom rejects any participation from me on principle. Eroberer (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
- Another vote for more editors! The kind that write paragraphs. --Marelstrom (talk) 20:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
I have done a fair bit of dispute resolution. I don't do much these days because it's very time-consuming; however, I am prepared to help out on this as long as progress is being made. As for venues - this talkpage is the most appropriate. Stuff to bear in mind:
1) It is very common to get heated during Wikipedia content disputes. That is the reason for the break, to give you both a chance to cool down. When we start the discussions on the 9th I want you both to concentrate on the article, and the problems with the article. It is taken as read, that you are both frustrated with each other at the moment and have a lot of built up resentment, but it doesn't help me when you make personal comments - that simply diverts attention from the real issues. I understand the frustrations you are going through (most of us do experience them when editing on Wikipedia!), and my strategy is to type out all the angry personal remarks, then - before pressing Save - I go through what I have written and edit it - cutting out the personal remarks and adjusting the tone so that it is as neutral as possible.
2) I may propose solutions that one or other of you are not happy with. I will listen carefully to objections, but only if there are reasons and explanations. My view is that "I don't like that" is purely an emotional response and carries no weight. Logical discussion and evidence will be treated with respect and considered carefully.
3) I may at times refer to policies, guidelines and Wikipedia essays. Policies have to be followed, guidelines carry a lot of consensus, so there needs to be a well argued rationale for going against guidelines, and essays are advisory and helpful. Policies, etc, are open to interpretation - if necessary I will indicate where I feel the policy is clear, and where it might be open to a different interpretation.
4) I will be expecting a short, clear and helpful explanation from each of you as to what you feel is wrong with the article, and the direction you feel the article should be going in. In this explanation I do not want any mention of the other person, their behaviour or attitude, or any editing problems. It is purely the content of the article that I am interested in.
I will see you on the 9th. SilkTork *Tea time 10:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the vacation SilkTork. Lately the problem seems to be mostly in the summary and there needs to be an objective decision about what belongs there. I think the summary should reflect the contents of the article, in this case perhaps one sentence representing each of the four sections: history, culture, business and controversy. This was fairly well accomplished in the March 21 version, though it could still use work; specifically BelovedFreak's comment about the shooting appearing in the history section, which I agree is awkward. If the shooting were to appear in the controversy section that would solve several problems, not only in the summary but in the flow of the article as a whole.
- The details about how many people started the group, how many it contains now, what the work arrangements are, details about their businesses are all included in the body of the article; don't think they all belong in the summary. They are not the major points of the article, and are somewhat promotional. There seems to be some opinion that because these things appear more "neutral" they provide a better summary; I disagree. There is also much misunderstanding about what neutrality means; I think it means all viewpoints are represented, not anything that could be construed as critical is eliminated.
- That's my position in a nutshell, trying to keep it short! Eroberer (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thankyou. That is clear and sensible. By the summary I assume you mean the lead. The guidance on the lead section is - WP:Lead, and it does advise, as you say, that the lead should "reflect the contents of the article".
- I look forward to hearing from Marelstrom. SilkTork *Tea time 09:48, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have just noticed that Marelstrom has been blocked. A new account, User:Flyswatting, has been created, and has edited this talkpage twice, though I have removed the comments as they are unhelpful personal attacks. It is possible that Flyswatting is Marelstrom. I have left a warning on Flyswatting's talkpage, and if they persist in making personal attacks, then that account will also be blocked. SilkTork *Tea time 17:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The article is written as if someone chose to find as many negative references as they could about Ganas, and sounds like hate propaganda. In particular about certain living persons Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons. If you would like to read an article that doesn't focus on negative connotations, try this one: http://brooklynrail.org/2006/05/streets/utopia-has-a-web-site#bio --Flyswatting (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- It would be good if Marelstrom would get themself unblocked or if Flyswatting would state their case so we can get on with it. The Brooklyn Rail piece is referenced several times in the article. It is one of the few (only?) third party descriptions of feedback learning and so is very valuable. Eroberer (talk) 13:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)