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Natural Constraint Language

Natural Constraint Language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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No independent secondary sources to establish notability as required by WP:GNG. A search suggests independent sources may not exist. The only contributors to the article are WP:SPAs. Msnicki (talk) 13:27, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions.
It's certainly highly technical. But generally informative is another matter. I think I know enough about programming languages and compilers and what an NP-hard problem is that if an article on one these topics has been written WP:NOT#JARGON "for everyday readers, not for academics" that after reading it, I should be able guess what it's about. But I have no idea what this thing is or what it does. This article told me nothing. Do you write programs in this language and do they get compiled and run? What do they do? Who can tell. I'm guessing it's yet another academic (in this case a researcher at Microsoft) self-promoting his little-known work. WP:NOT PAPERS, WP:NOTPROMOTION, WP:INDISCRIMINATE Msnicki (talk) 15:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was able to take a bit more out of it. (I must be a very clever fellow!) I gathered that this theory or research had to do with solving complex problems involving constraints (how do I paint the map with a limited palette, so that no border has the same color on either side? What's the best way from here to the zoo, avoiding traffic jams, stop lights, and extra miles, with each factor weighted?) These problems are mathematically hard, from what I'm told. Solving them is one of the few things humans usually do better with than computers. I don't know enough about the field to suggest a merger subject, but I did want to point out that this seems to be well written technical material of the sort we ought to save somehow if possible. The two articles do seem to be mergeable, though. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 20:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, now you're just talking about what an NP or NP-hard problem is, not anything this article could have contributed to your knowledge. But what does this Natural Constraint Language stuff have to do with any of that? Do you describe one of these problems and have it tell you if a solution is computable? Does it search for good solutions if perfect ones are too expensive? Or is this just a notation and perhaps an algebra for working these kinds of things on a whiteboard? Who can tell. Msnicki (talk) 20:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
People can understand very well that if a mathematician describes an industrial problem naturally in conventional mathematical logic and a computer language can recognize it and solve it efficiently, it is fantastic. NCL can do this. NCL aims to solve industrial problems such as logistics optimization, production scheduling, human resources optimization and other problems. So this is a very hard research and very interesting, though it may be a long and lonely work. SophiePaul (talk) 12:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Keep. The article is based on primary sources by a single author, and therefore doesn't satisfy WP:GNG. I spent some time searching Web of Science for more sources, but found nothing useful; I found only two citations of Dr Zhou's articles by other authors, and those papers didn't include any significant discussion of NCL. It seems that a company called Enginest uses NCL, but I don't think that counts as an independent source since Dr Zhou seems to be affiliated with them. I agree with Smerdis of Tlön that the article looks interesting and it would be nice to retain this content. However, without seeing an independent source, ideally a secondary source, it's hard to justify keeping it. Jowa fan (talk) 06:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC) In the light of the discussion below, and additions to the article, I now believe that the necessary sources exist. The article could still use some work; an explanation of which reference supports which parts of the article would be helpful. Jowa fan (talk) 13:10, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There seemed to be some problem with the internet (slow for us to respond). Please try searching on "www.google.com" by typing "NCL Constraint Language". If you only type "NCL" or "Natural Constraint Language", it may not give you sufficient information because there are quite some others also named "NCL". There are many reliable and independent sources citing NCL, including users of NCL, research papers citing or using NCL, and research center links, etc. Even in Mainland China a Book "自然约束语言"(in Chinese) was published in 2009. A book "The NCL Natural Constraint Language" in English will also be published soon. Please note that these Wikipedia articles need to be further developed and it takes time. NCL and "Mixed Set Programming" are purely scientific concepts and research on them are highly advanced. The research work on NCL has been very hard since more than 12 years. This technology has been proved to be very successful in industry. So please help us to improve the quality of these articles. At least please do not delete them. MERCI. SophiePaul (talk) 13:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Using google translate to view that link, I think the author of the book is the same Dr Zhou. Can you name a book or paper on this subject by a different author? Jowa fan (talk) 02:58, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Related works" is added to indicate relevant works, including POEM and a book on an experimental system based on POEM. By the way, Google Scholar search for "J. Zhou: Introduction to the constraint language NCL" can tell more relevant works and citations. Thanks for your attention. SophiePaul (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please do not delete. 1) Please retain the articles "Natural Constraint Language" and "Mixed Set Programming". They are about new subjects, fundamental and are significant for industrial applications. Independent research work since more than 12 years by J.Zhou (who is not in academy, no need for academic promotion) should be respected scientifically. A search for "NCL Constraint Language" on Google can tell that there are many sources about NCL and MSP. 2) Please do not merge NCL and MSP. They are different subjects. "Natural Constraint Language" is about a computer programming language for modeling and solving problems. "Mixed Set Programming" is about an algorithmic framework. 3) For NCL, there is a journal paper "J.Zhou. Introduction to the constraint language NCL. JLP 45(1-3): 71-103(2000)". A book "The NCL Natural Constraint Language" in English will be published soon. These two Wikipedia articles will also be further developed to provide readers with detailed knowledge. Merci. SophiePaul (talk) 11:46, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to point (1): I did search on Google before I made my comments above. What we need is sources that are reliable and independent. I didn't see anything that looked suitable. Have you read WP:GNG carefully? If you can provide links to appropriate sources according to those guidelines, then it may be possible to keep the article. Jowa fan (talk) 12:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/POEM (software) for an example of an independent source that's also relevant here. I think we still need at least one more independent source. Jowa fan (talk) 03:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Related works" is added to indicate relevant works, including POEM and a book on an experimental system based on POEM. It seems that recently some other researchers are working toward similar objectives, but they are still quite different from NCL. Please be understanding that further development on these Wikipedia articles is being prepared. It takes some time. Thanks. SophiePaul (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The book by Li appears to be about logistics in general. (Sorry, I don't have access to a copy of the book, I'm just going by Google's translation of the web page.) Does it contain significant coverage of NCL? It's not clear that the other related works have anything to do with NCL at all. More information is needed! Jowa fan (talk) 03:11, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am informed that the book is about logistics optimization modules developed using POEM. All math models (vehicle routing, production scheduling, etc) are programmed in NCL and run in POEM. So that work is closely-related to POEM/NCL. The 3rd and 4th (independent) related works cite Dr Zhou's work (result of 12 years ago) and they target similar objectives. A question might be: if a subject is extremely complex and the research work on it is terribly hard and nobody else works on it, Wikipedia will reject an article on such a result? NCL involves techniques in different scientific fields: programming language (formalism/grammar theory/compiler/parser/pattern recognition), operations research (combinatorial optimization/complexity theory/algorithm), logic programming (first-order logic/numerical reasoning/naive set theory),... SophiePaul (talk) 10:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
With some others, I have been trying my best to improve according to your comments. And such improvements will continue. Please let me know your further advices if any. By the way, I think when I initiated the articles, I have paid enough attention not to include any "delicate" information (e.g., a company name) so that it is not considered a "publicity". In fact, if Wikipedia could host a document I would have uploaded Dr Zhou's papers into Wikipedia's space instead of linking to the current sites. SophiePaul (talk) 10:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is "poorly written" really a reason for deletion? Jowa fan (talk) 13:10, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please do not delete I think Wikipedia's requirements for these articles have been met. I have followed the above advices to do necessary improvement by adding secondary sources found by Google search. If anything else still need to be done, please let me know. SophiePaul (talk) 10:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're only supposed to WP:!VOTE once, SophiePaul. Msnicki (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question. What sources are now being offered in support of notability? Since being nominated for AfD, I see that all kinds of supposed sources have been added. But what is this junk? I'm pretty darn sure that Don Knuth, Noam Chomsky and Aho and Ullman did not have anything to say about NCL. This is nonsense. You really only need 2 decent independent articles or mentions to establish notability and I still don't see them. Instead, all I see is a lot dust being thrown in the air. What are the ACTUAL sources offered in support of notability? I think it's still zero. Msnicki (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I too am mystified by the list of "references". Certainly the article as a whole needs some work. The actual sources I'm interested in are the ones under the heading "related works", specifically the book by Li and the articles Martín et al 2009 and Flener and Pearson 2004. See SophiePaul's comment above, indented and dated 10:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC). Jowa fan (talk) 01:42, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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