Talk:Shams Tabrizi

Sunni

You should mention he was a Sunni and was NOT a iranian but a persian, but he was an Ismaili Peer in time of Imam Mustansibillah the fatimeed Imam direct decendent of Muhammad (Peace be upon him and his family). Iran is differant than Persian. Persian is a race, Iran is a country!

Persian is not a race. But Iranian is. You should have looked up wikipedia for Iranian People before posting this. And besides, there is no evidence for Shams being Persian, maybe he belonged to Azeri, Tat, Talysh or any other ethnic groups of Iran.

Shams Tabrizi was a Sunni (Shafi madhab) as per my I have read. I dont have any source at my hand right now, so I am not putting it, but, once I get my hands on the source, I will update this article. --Theotherguy1 (talk) 11:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I updated the page with proper citation. --Theotherguy1 (talk) 04:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

friend

Identifying the Indian Shams Tabraiz with Rumi's friend does not seem correct.At least among the famous experts there is no dispute that Rumi's friend was called Tabrizi as a refernce to his birthplace Tabriz , as also can be seen from biogrphy of Rumi , "Managheb al Arefin" and so many refernces in Divane Shamse Tabrizi to the city of Tabriz by notions like "the city of beloved" and references to Shams himself as a Turk(i.e what is called Azeri today).So I reveted to the last edit by Who , if there are frequent enough refernces to these two persons as one , please mention it in the article by citing th refernce to the sources.Pasha Abd 10:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Reverting to the Last edit by Who threw away several changes that had been made (by me). I will male a consensual version ans separate the three Shams. Subramanian ^talk

Now I´m confused. Which Shams was flayed? [1] [2] Subramanian ^talk

Sorry Subramanian , please keep other changes.I have never heard of Rumi's friend being flayed , the only Sufi who was subject to this horrible torture was Naseemi who died in Syria and is often mentioned along with Hallaj and Ayn-al-Qudat Hamadani.For Shams (Rumis friend) I have two guesses , it is possible that his name is confused another Sufi martyr (as suggested by Indian Shams , realy I dont know much about him ), or (I know it seems a little unsual but thats my guess) the word Fly and Flay are confused

are they alike in Persian?! Subramanian ^talk

No ,just an unlikely guess about possiblity of a typing error ;).

because Rumi and others used to affectionately call him Flying Shams because he didnt use to stay in a place for a long time.Shams disapeared and no trace of him was ever found , a probable guess is that he was assasinated by the jealous companions of Rumi , in any case Rumi never accepted that he is dead (we can take it in eithermystic or conventional sense) and was waiting for him and composed many poems for him.A poem that suggests his death and mystic immortality being

Who ever said that Shams-e- Tabriz is dead ?

The lofty Gabriel from wounds of a knife is dead ,

That enemy of Sun closed his eyes and said

Aye , verily the Sun is dead.(attributed to Rumi)

I think a reliable and comprehensive source about Shams is "Me and Rumi , translated by Chittick"Pasha Abd 11:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the poem. I love Rumi.

Well Pasha, I think your help is needed here, because you seem more knowleadgeable in this than I am. I believe that "Me and Rumi" is accurate enough, but it is very difficult for any source to get all the facts straight after 800 years. If Rumi´s Shams was really flayed alive, we have a problem. See, when I first encountered this article it had three Shams listed, 1, 2, 3. If it was number 1, Rumi´s friend, that was flayed alive, then number 2 would be simply listed as: "Shams Tabraiz (d. 1276) was an Indian Muslim mystic who lived in Punjab region of present day Pakistan." and that makes me suspect that this second Shams could be only the indian echo and legend of the Sufi Rumi, as they lived at the same time, by the same name, both mystics. Can we research that? Can you help? Put some facts you know into the article! Subramanian ^talk 16:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks , I ,too, suspect the Indian Shams being an echo , but I feel sure that Rumi's friend was not flayed , such a death is a little too big a fact to remain unnoticed in various books , you know.I shall search about persons called Shams and Rumi's friend as well, when I gathered some good information shall help here.Pasha Abd 23:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Pasha, it´s good that will be doing a research. Good job and good luck with the article: it seems to be in good hands. As for the flaying, I believe the two sources cited above carry some respect, so the usual procedure is to cite something like "some sources...". Our opinions shouldn´t interfere in writing a neutral article. Just say sources mention it, and why it can be doubted. Subramanian ^talk 06:11, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks.I agree Subramanian , no disrespect was ever meant to any sources , please add what you think is appropriate , perhaps mentioning it as popular view not widely accepted by scholars.Pasha 01:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Name

I am confused why he is named Shams Tabraiz it is wrong - i think it should be corrected to Shams Tabrizi (or Tebrizi) and separate article created for both or at least for Rumi's ShamsAbdulnr 02:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. I never heard of "Shams Tabraiz" as Rumi's teacher and friend - his name has always (in my reading) been "Shams-i Tabrizi" (or "Shams Tabrizi"). It seems the original author of this page may have confused the two, and this mistake (since it's in the title of this article) has managed to perpetuate itself. A separate page should be created for the two people, since their names are not the same (they're merely similar). 15 Feb 2006.

Shams Tabraiz googles 165 results, Shams Tabrez 460, Shams Tabriz 446 and Shams Tabrizi 511. Wooo. One of the worst transliteration cases available. What would be the official transliteration for it from persian? Since there is not any widely predominant spelling, the official linguistic one should be our choice. Subramanian ^talk 02:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I’ve only heard of Shams Tabrizi, the second name indicating the place he was hailing from – Tabriz. The name of the article is apparently a mistake. Grandmaster 12:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Why my move was reverted - if anyone can submit to me any theory as to why Shams Tabrizi is called Tabraiz I will obligingly submit to his authority. If not I will move back to Tabrizi in a day or two and re-create two different arricles for two different personalities. abdulnr 10:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Some sources say that Shams Tabrizi has been assasinated by Mevlana's son, who threw him in a burrow at the location of his tomb in Konya.85.103.103.172 21:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Issues

This page does not do justice to the truth of this Man and his relationship to Rumi, or Rumi and his father. Rumi was a practicing Sufi well before he met Shams, given that his father was a renowned Shaykh, both in Khurasan and later in Konya. Shams set Rumi on fire with Love and their relationship can best be described as Alchemical. Both Shams and Rumi go out of their way to say 'But no, he is the peerless one'. Certainly Shams does not allow anyone to hold a candle to Rumi, whom he loved, deeply. And vice versa.

There is a book, called 'Sun of Rumi', which finally brings Shams' teachings to the English reader. Excellent reference for this article.

Regarding the name issue, my guess is that we have individuals who are a bit possessive of Shams and wish to render a Turkish version of his city of origin. I tell you these Men would laugh at your face if they saw how you argue over whether he was Iranian, Persian, or Turk; their whole lives was dedicated to shattering any sort of bondage to 'transitory' facts of the "world", or Donya. Ask them where they are from and they will tell you: "We are from The Garden".

Regarding the Iranian vs Persian. Clearly, Persians are a ethnic sub-set of the Aryans, which is a race. The country was called Aryaan Shahr, or Iran Shahr, or Aryaan Zameen or Iran Zameen, as you prefer (which is the 'greater Iran' covering the lands of the Iranian People) from the beginning. Iranians have NEVER called their nation "Persia". The modern nation-state of Iran, currently incarnate as Islamic Republic of Iran is the residual Iran Zameen (thanks to the incompetent Qajar shahs ...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.213.240 (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

CAUSE OF DEATH

Shouldn't the fact that he was stoned to death by orthodox muslims be mentioned in the article ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.18 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Azeri-Iranian not Persian

He was not Persian because he was born in Tabriz and was an Azeri. The truth is he was an Azeri-Iranian. There is a page in Wikipedia for Azeri-iranians. Thus, It must be as follows:

Shams-i Tabrīzī in a circa 1503 copy of his disciple Rumi's poem, the "Diwan-e Shams-e Tabriz-i"]] Shams-i-Tabrīzī or Shams al-Din Mohammad (died ca.1248) was an Azeri-iranian Muslim... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.93.100 (talk) 01:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually we are talking about a 800+ years ago.

• At that time people in Tabriz spoke an Iranian language Old Azari language.
• Please also note Safina-yi Tabriz, where it provides clear evidence of the language of Tabriz during this time which was Persian.
• Jean Druing, "The Spirit of Sounds: The Unique Art of Ostad Elahi", Cornwall Books, 2003, p172:"Maraghi (15th century) mentions the Turkish and the Shirvani tanbour, which had two strings tuned in second (which the Kurds and Lors call Farangi) and was quite popular among the inhabitants of Tabriz (a region which was not yet Turkish speaking at the time) "
• The ethnic group "Turkish Azeri" was not formed yet as the term "Azeri" for an ethnic group was not used till the 20th century. So if you are claiming he is Turkish/Turkic that is wrong as Tabriz still spoke Iranian languages after the Mongol era (mentioned by primary and secondary sources). This is also explained in the Tabriz article.
• Also all the recorded words and speeches of Shams (which are in colloquial Persian) are in colloquial Persian. Mainly those recorded by Rumi's students.
• The people of Azerbaijan, specially urban centers, at the time were Shafi'ite Muslims like Shams Tabriz (while the Oghuz Turks were Hanafi muslims) and spoke Iranian languages. *There is actually Old Azari language words (Iranian words) (e.g. Buri Buri..which means come! come! in the Tat Persian/Iranian-language) narrated from Shams-e Tabrizi in the Divan of Rumi (one example is given in that article in Old Azari language).
• Also the name of Shams father is Malek-daad and he was claimed to be a descendant of the Ismaili' Imams of Alamut in at least one source, who were obviously not Turkish speaking.
• So although one cannot be certain about a person from 800-900+ years ago, the stronger evidence suggests Perso-Iranian culture and heritage, specially since the recorded colloquial conversations of Shams are in Persian. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 06:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)