Talk:British Empire

Semi-protection

I believe Semi-protection is now required; nearly all the edits since the last FA discussion have either been vandalism (and its reverting), or unexplained changes, mostly from newly registered, and IP users. Those affected by this can always use an edit request, if the need arises. --George2001hi (talk) 18:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I would decline a request for semi-protection, one edit every other day is not like an edit war and this article has 689 watchers to keep it inline. If the disruptive IP edits were every more regular then it could be considered. Frustrating but I dont think it is a big problem, not all IP editors are disruptive. MilborneOne (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Some Excitement, I See

Guys, I just stopped by to find out when the British Empire was established and when it was disestablished. Specifically, I was wondering because of all this Birther nonsense about Obama being born in the British Empire. I see this has been the object of some excitement around here. Nonetheless, I would like to know the dates something called the British Empire existed. It is a shame this article does not provide this simple fact. It is a resonable question, I hope we are able to provide a factual answer. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 12:12, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no clear endpoint when the Empire is thought to have ended, or when it began. Before "Britain" even came into being, there was an English Empire, and almost a Scottish one, so when the United Kingdom was formed in 1707 there was already an empire. As for an endpoint, an often cited date is 1997, when Hong Kong was given to China. A good span would be perhaps 1497-1997, if only because of its beautiful 500 year timespan. As Obama is a President of the USA, I would assume he was born in the USA, which has not been part of the British Empire since its independence. So unless he's very old, I highly doubt he was born in the British Empire. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

If the birthers are saying that Obama was born in Kenya, then that is consistent with saying that he was born in the British Empire because Kenya became independent (of the empire) in 1963 and Obama was born in 1961. Of course, it is equally possible that he is lying about his age and that he was actually born in that evil city New York (then a part of the British empire) in 1761. Now that's a conspiracy theory worth exploring! --rgpk (comment) 13:47, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

While that is at least as plausible as the standard birther scenario, it does not serve the purpose. Born in 1761, he would likely be covered by the "...or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" clause. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me phrase it this way, which British kings styled themselves as King-Emperor? Who was the first and who was the last? Paul, in Saudi (talk) 15:53, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't sound particularly useful to me. You can have an empire without emperors and emperors without empires (or clothes for that matter). I'm not sure how to answer your question. Queen Victoria was declared "Empress of India" in 1876 but that says nothing about her also being an Empress of Kenya. Unless Obama was born in pre-1947 India. --rgpk (comment) 16:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it is not useful. But as fairly disinterested reader, one not involved in the politics of the editors here, I would like to know and it seems to be a reasonable question one could expect to be clearly answered in this article. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 01:49, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

You're asking for a clearcut distinction that does not exist. The British monarchs didn't style themselves as King-Emperors, just as Kings or Queens, but I suppose if you wanted to have the date for King-Emperor (or Queen-Empress?) than it would be 1876 with the acquisition of control over India. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 04:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, as unsatisfying as it is, I shall bow to your superior knowledge. I had heard once the BE had formally existed for only a very short time, less that a century. But it all quite a bit more complex than I imagined it. I sahll leave you Smart People to it. Thank you. Paul, in Saudi (talk) 10:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The reason why your question doesn't make sense is that there is never a clean start date and end date for an empire. They grow gradually, possibly through hubris, and die gradually (as all things must one day). If you want some degree of exactitude, then, I suppose, one could say that the British Empire started with the establishment of Jamestown in 1607 and formally died with the handing over of Hong Kong in 1997. A healthy 390 years. A more realistic view of Empire would be, perhaps, from the ceding of New York to the British by the Dutch in 1674 - though the desire for empire predates this by a few decades to the time of Sir Walter Raleigh - to the end of the 2nd World War (1945) when it became clear that the days of empire were over. --rgpk (comment) 17:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

And if you wanna get really anal we could go back to the Plantagenet interest in France?Gazzster (talk) 01:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Kenya was a British dependency in 1961 so if he was born there (which he wasn't), he would have been born in the British Empire, because in the early 60s that term was still used, though it was never an official term. The "Emperor" part of the "King-Emperor" title only applied to India, which was classed as an empire in its own right, though one that was ruled by the British. This was abandoned in 1947. ðarkuncoll 16:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe it was officially the Colony and Protectorate of Kenya after 1920 (see the brief article at Kenya Colony) and before independence. I couldn't immediately find references to FO documents of the period on Kenya but probably it was officially referred to on an everyday basis as a "Crown Colony" and so the mythical Obama Birth would have been as some kind of British Colonial. "Colonial" was not quite the term of abuse at that time that it has since become. All convenient fictions to mask the sense of being owned by the imperial power of course, but the BE traded on such fictions very well for a long time. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

There is an argument that the British Empire still exists obviously in a much reduced form, so its not possible to put an end date on it yet. British Overseas Territories could be argued to be the last remnants of Empire. After all Britain took over direct rule of the Turks and Caicos islands in 2009 after allegations of ministerial corruption. That seems to be a colonial power being exercised, I think one or two Turks and Caicos politicians played that card at the time as it has become an emotive term, even pejorative. You would be hard put to find anyone in the UK call them colonies but in practice I think they could be called that. If we look at places like Gibraltar or the Falklands they say the want to stay "British" but they wouldn't describe themselves as a colony I wouldn't have thought? They have their own governments but so did Hong Kong when it was a colony (Legco). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.168.118 (talk) 11:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Cyprus deserves inclusion

Cyprus, which the British had ruled on lease from the Ottomans since 1878, became a Crown Colony in 1925 after Turkey had signed away any and all interests in the island in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne. This is an interesting contrast to the Balkan countries, which gained independence after their respective liberations. This deserves to be edited into the article, not merely the late 1950's war against the colonial rule.

Minor Edit : Decolonisation and decline (1945–1997)

from 'Britain was left virtually bankrupt' to 'Britain was left virtually bankrupt having carried the flag for democracy alone between 1939 and '41', as pertains to the facts.Twobells (talk) 12:37, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

That sounds fairly extraneous. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Also original research. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick ^t 01:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

All the countries in the Empire apart from the Irish Free State had declared war on Germany in 1939. (92.7.6.62 (talk) 15:46, 16 July 2011 (UTC))

Suez and its aftermath section

I am correcting a few details. Firstly the British and French did not capture the Canal because the US pressure forced Eden to call a ceasefire before troops could reach the Canal. Also it was Nikoli Bulganin, not Kruschev, who sent the letters to London, Paris and Tel Aviv threatening Soviet intervention on the Egyptian side. (92.7.6.62 (talk) 15:47, 16 July 2011 (UTC))

Very open to factual corrections - can we have the references to support those statements please. And in the mean time stop edit warring. I've reverted you per WP:BRD, apologies for the vandal statement that was an accident --Snowded ^TALK 16:37, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I have added a reference to show it was Bulganin who threatened intervention. Also Sudan gained independence in 1956. (92.7.6.62 (talk) 17:41, 16 July 2011 (UTC))

Please take note of [WP:INDENT|how to format comments] here. You have been reverted by three editors. That means you present the evidence here and gain agreement to changes. You should self-revert now and do that. --Snowded ^TALK 17:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Since my information is factual and referenced there is no need to revert. A quick look at the article on Sudan will show you it gained independence on 1st January 1956. Kruschev did not say anything publicly during the Suez Crisis, it was all left to the prime minister Nikolai Bulganin. (92.7.6.62 (talk) 17:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC))