Talk:Elvis Presley

Elvis' Airplanes

From Archive #28: "How many of the 1970s-era tours did Presley charter Big Bunny, the Playboy jet which was all black except for a white Playboy logo on the tail? Touring sound engineer Bruce Jackson talked in awe about the luxury of this method of travel, and Jerry Schilling in his Elvis book says the Big Bunny charter was mid-1973. Were there any other Elvis charters of the Playboy plane?" Binksternet (talk) 00:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Elvis enjoyed Big Bunny so much that he bought his own fleet of personal airliners, a Convair 880 named "Lisa Marie", two (2) Lockheed Jetstars, and a Dassault Falcon. He really enjoyed traveling in his airplanes. When the suggestion was made to include something on his airplanes, DCGeist (03:45, 7 August 2010 (UTC)) suggested this was "trivia wallowing". So the topic was left alone - who would contribute in the face of such gratuitous commentary? Any effort to contribute would be reverted. So nothing more was heard about his airplanes. Santamoly (talk) 06:29, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

If anyone wants to read about Presley's planes, the jewellery and costumes he commissioned, the exact shade of his real hair, his favorite fried chicken and sandwich recipes, the games he liked to play, the name of the company that installed the water feature in The Jungle Room, the name of his manicurist, etc, etc, you can glean something of the enormous impact these had on his life and career by looking some place else, me thinks. ;) Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The above comment illustrates the ownership attitude WP:OWN that has caused this article to be such a low quality result. What more can anyone say? Santamoly (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Expressing an opinion about what should be, or shouldn't be, in the article is hardly evidence of 'ownership'. If you want to say anything, then say why you think the things you want to include should be included. It's a pity you have a tendency to make disparaging comments about the article and its contributors without making any constructive efforts to justify any changes you'd like to see. If you couldn't glean the point I was making - that some stuff is just too trivial or insignificant to include - what more can anyone say? And why do you keep insisting the article is low quality when it's a Featured article? Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 23:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Style for "African American"

The article was promoted to FA status on February 23, 2010. At that time there were twelve--count them, twelve--instances of the phrase "African American" used as an adjective. Every single one of those instances was unhyphenated, as they have remained until the recent, baseless, and increasingly disruptive efforts to alter this well-established, entirely proper, and up-to-date style.

As I previously suggested in an edit summary, I encourage everyone to check the prevailing style in current, high-quality sources. Simply do a Google Books search on the string "African American" or the string "African-American". On the search results page, click on "21st century" in the left-hand column, and just look at the results.

The answer is clear: there is no compelling reason to alter the existing style, and efforts to do so are in violation of both the spirit and letter of our Manual of Style, on the grounds of internal consistency, stability of articles, and follow the sources. DocKino (talk) 20:31, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

When used as an adjective, "African-American" is hyphenated, and consensus here seems to support that. Joefromrandb (talk) 20:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Your claim is entirely baseless. I have provided evidence of the consensus that it is not hyphenated (it reached Featured Article status that way and remained so undisturbed for over a year); I have provided evidence that article stability directs you to leave it unhyphenated (see preceding); and I have provided evidence that high-quality sources support this style. You have done nothing but emit hot air out of some orifice or another. DocKino (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

There was no discussion of the hyphen during the February 2010 FA, or during any of the previous GA or FA assessments. Until now there was never a discussion of the hyphen on this talk page. Historically, the users taking a significant part here have included Onefortyone and Steve Pastor, both editors using the hyphen in the adjective form and the space in the noun form. There was never a conscious consensus, only a mixed history. At the moment, consensus appears to have been formed for the hyphenated form of the compound adjective.

The hyphen you added back to "musical-comedies" baffles me. Your other argument, that "African American music" (no hyphen) can be found in high quality sources is one I acknowledge as true. (There are, of course, other high quality sources using the hyphen.) However, the hyphen you put in between musical and comedies is not found elsewhere. Binksternet (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Also: if we followed WP:STABLE then we should note that the first time the word "African" appeared in the article was in the hyphenated form of "African-American performers", on July 12, 2005, from the editor NoahB. That construction stayed in place for more than two years. Binksternet (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted my error on "musical comedies." I simply misread the diff.

Yes, there was no discussion of the style of "African American" during the two long-running FACs that led to the FA in February 2010--and you should presume that was because not a single person thought there was any reason to raise an issue with proper, up-to-date, and consistently applied style. You think no one was conscious that there were twelve instances of "African American" as an adjective in the article--every single one of them unhyphenated--including two in the heavily trafficked lead section? That's incredible! The plain truth is that when something ain't broken, there's no need to waste time jawing about it. Common sense, eh? The long-running stability of the style, disrupted only recently, is further evidence that this good and proper style enjoyed consensus support.

Speaking of stability, you've offered a very odd interpretation of it. The article as a whole was far from stable in 2005-7, and you are comparing one usage of "African American" in a low-quality article to a dozen consistently styled usages in a Featured Article. If you really cared about stability, you would recognize that the article is now at a far different stage in its evolution and you would never pursue this sort of change for which there is no "substantial reason", to quote the relevant section of the guideline.

Furthermore, please do not misstate my position. It goes well beyond the claim that the unhyphenated style "can be found" in high-quality sources. I have directed you to compelling evidence that it is the prevailing style in "current English usage", again to quote the relevant section of our Manual of Style.

Finally, astonishingly, neither you nor Joe has yet to offer a single reason for altering the well-established, stable, and proper style of the article that goes one iota past personal preference. Remarkable. DocKino (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Your notional FA consensus falls down in the face of the reviewers' and nominators' mistake in "musical-comedies", which was in the article at FA nomination and was still in the article when it was listed. That mistake tells me nobody gave the issue any serious thought or they would have found that error. I must conclude that no consensus was achieved, consciously or not. Binksternet (talk) 21:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

An erroneous hyphen in the single instance of "musical-comedies" was overlooked? My God...it was! But surely you're not arguing that's in any way relevant to twelve consistently styled usages of "African American" (thirteen, if we include the appearance in noun form), including two in the lead. You couldn't be that silly.

And--guess we shouldn't be shocked at this point--still not one single reason outside of personal preference for altering the well-established, stable, and proper style of this article. This becomes increasingly incredible. DocKino (talk) 06:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Prevailing style?

Is "African American music" (no hyphen) the prevailing style in our highest-quality English sources? In my experience there is no prevailing style: both the hyphenated and non- versions are used in the best English sources. Here are some that use the hyphen:

• "Presidential Proclamation – African-American Music Appreciation Month", President Barack Obama, May 28, 2010
• Music and the racial imagination, University of Chicago Press, 2000
• Reading pop: approaches to textual analysis in popular music, Oxford University Press US, 2000
• Ethnomusicology: historical and regional studies, W. W. Norton & Company, 1993
• Southern African-American Music Collection, USC Music Library
• Southern music/American music, University Press of Kentucky, 2003
• Racial and ethnic directions in American music, College Music Society, Committee on the Status of Minorities in the Profession, 1982
• Riffs & choruses: a new jazz anthology, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2001
• African-American concert dance: the Harlem Renaissance and beyond, University of Illinois Press, 2001
• Women and music, Indiana University Press, 2001
• Music of the Civil War era, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2004
• Church and worship music: an annotated bibliography of contemporary scholarship: a research and information guide, CRC Press, 2005
• Reflections on American music: the twentieth century and the new millennium, College Music Society, Pendragon Press, 2000
• A Companion to African-American Philosophy, Wiley-Blackwell, 2006
• Encyclopedia of African-American politics, Infobase Publishing, 2003
• The North American folk music revival: nation and identity in the United States and Canada, 1945–1980, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2007
• Music, Education, and Multiculturalism: Foundations and Principles, Oxford University Press US, 2004
• Continuum encyclopedia of popular music of the world, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2003
• Race and ideology: language, symbolism, and popular culture, Wayne State University Press, 1999
• CliffsAP English Language and Composition, John Wiley and Sons, 2006
• Interpreting popular music, University of California Press, 2000
• Perspectives on American music since 1950, Taylor & Francis, 1999
• California soul: music of African Americans in the West, University of California Press, 1998
• Choral music in nineteenth-century America: a guide to the sources, Scarecrow Press, 1999
• A tribute to Woody Guthrie & Leadbelly: teacher's guide, R&L Education, 1990
• "The Sounds of Blackness", from Upon these shores: themes in the African-American experience, 1600 to the present. Psychology Press, 2000
• Sourcebook for research in music, Indiana University Press, 2005
• Images: iconography of music in African-American culture, 1770s-1920s, Taylor & Francis, 2000
• The Harvard guide to African-American history, by Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham. Harvard University Press, 2001
• Choral music: a research and information guide, Psychology Press, 2002
• African-American music: an evolution from Africa to America, University of Miami, 2003
• African-American music: a directory serving the Greater Cleveland area, John Carroll University, 1990
• African-American music: songs of pride, perseverance and progression, Wright State University, 1998
• African-American Music, VDM Publishing House Ltd., 2010
• African-American Music: Gospel, Jazz, Blues, Rap and Everything in Between, Taft Johnson Books, 2010
• Teaching music with a multicultural approach, Music Educators National Conference, 1991
• "African-American Sheet Music, 1850–1920", from the Library of Congress, the collections of Brown University
• "An Unlikely African-American Music Historian", from NPR's All Things Considered
• The Crisis magazine, 1991
• Vibe magazine, 1995

(I threw a few magazine and web sources in there for popular perspective.)

Some books use both constructions:

• All music guide to classical music: the definitive guide to classical music, Hal Leonard Corporation, 2005
• The African diaspora: a musical perspective, Psychology Press, 2003
• Encyclopedia of American gospel music, Psychology Press, 2005
• A turbulent voyage: readings in African American studies, Rowman & Littlefield, 2000

I did not show the sources which do not use the hyphen: there are certainly many high quality ones. All I intended to do with this list is to puncture the premise that there is a prevailing English style for no hyphen between African and American. There is not. Binksternet (talk) 17:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Not a tough call, folks

If this article did not have a stable or consistent style, a reasonable case could be made for either "African American" or "African-American." But it obviously DOES have a stable and consistent style, which is "African American," and as DocKino has said, it violates both the letter and the spirit of the MOS to change it. It is especially annoying to see Joefromrandb, ignoring the sense of this discussion, change one instance according to his whim, thereby subverting both the stability and the consistency of the article. Time to drop this and move on to something more productive.—DCGeist (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

You're quite wrong. Not according to my whim. According to proper English usage that has been well-documented on this page. You are quite correct in your second point. Time (for me, at least) to move on. Joefromrandb (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

No, sir, I am not wrong. You are. We have determined that either African American or African-American is a proper style. As it happens, African American is the style consistently used in this article. Now let us turn to your behavior.

African American appears 13 times in this article, every time without a hyphen. You changed one instance—on a whim. We could also observe that African American appears twice in the lede's second paragraph, each time without a hyphen. Again, you changed one instance—on a whim.—DCGeist (talk) 06:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I stand by both my edits to the article, and my comments here. Fin. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

We'd actually have quite a good discussion going on here about the use of hyphens if it wasn't for the descent into intemperate language and name-calling. If anyone's got a good case, please let it be made without recourse to personal attacks. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 15:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Elvis was Jewish???

Long-winded debate rendered pointless by contributor refusing to accept WP:RS policy

His great great grandmother was Jewish, according to Jewish law it is passed down maternally in Orthodox Judaism therefore it should be stated.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 16:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC) Elvis was aware of this.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 16:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC) The sources you brought are not scholarly books. There is no certainty of Presley's being a Jew. Binksternet (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC) It has been well documented that he had Jewish ancestry.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC) http://www.abebooks.com/Schmelvis-Search-Elvis-Presleys-Jewish-Roots/1487897785/bd--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC) Therefore I should be able to add it, that is a reliable source and a scholared source.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schmelvis-Search-Elvis-Presleys-Jewish/dp/155022462X--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2011 (UTC) The claim is dubious. It is already adequately covered in a footnote. Your links are dysfunctional. There is no evidence that Elvis or his mother believed they were Jewish. And your understanding of Jewish law is weak—for Elvis to have been Jewish, his mother would have had to be Jewish, meaning her mother would have had to be Jewish, and her mother would have had to be Jewish, AND her mother would have had to be Jewish. Even if it were granted that one of Gladys's great-grandmothers was Jewish (and we can't grant that), that would establish only that that woman's children were also Jewish according to religious law, and no evidence has ever been presented that the link between Gladys and that generation was entirely maternal. It could just as easily have been Jewish great-grandmother > Jewish grandfather > non-Jewish father > non-Jewish Gladys.—DCGeist (talk) 00:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Sure, Elvis was Jewish. That accounts for all the Christian gospel songs he sang. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC) His great-great grandmother was Jewish it is passed down maternally, then his grandmother would have been Jewish, then his mother, then Elvis himself, Elvis was well aware of his Jewish heritage. Elvis was well aware of his Jewish ancestry, as a child was instructed not to advertise the fact because "people didn't like Jews" according to his parents. Yet, Elvis, who lived in an apartment below a Jewish rabbi, would often visit. The widow of the rabbi talks about Elvis. She recalls how, Elvis would visit their house on Saturday in order to turn on lights and do things they weren't allowed to do. Elvis carried a yarmulke in his pocket. He was fascinated by Jewish music. As an adult, she remembers how Elvis donated to several Jewish organizations. Lots and lots of pictures him wearing the Star of David. --GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 10:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_Elvis_Presley Although he did not practice the religion, Elvis was halachically Jewish, because of his mother's Jewish heritage (her mother had been Jewish, as had her grandmother, her great-grandmother, etc.). He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality."--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers#Music Elvis Presley's great-great-grandmother was Jewish. Elvis personally had a Star of David carved into his mother's grave. He also learned the Hebrew alphabet, donated to Jewish charities, had a Rabbi as his spiritual teacher, and he routinely wore a Chai necklace (meaning “Life/Living” in Hebrew) in order to celebrate his Jewish heritage. Elvis was Jewish by law and did have a great-great grandmother who was Jewish and it was maternally down the line, he was Jewish and was well aware of it, it should be re-added it is part of Elvis and has been proven and on other wikipedia pages is also mentioned. Many people have discussed this I have even seen it up before but somebody keeps removing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 10:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Probably because it's about as "relevant" as Barack Obama being Irish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC) I just checked find-a-grave. Ain't no star of David "carved into" his mother's grave. It has a Christian cross just above her name, as with his father's and also his own. Besides which, the letters are raised, not "carved into".[1] I note that there is one Jew prominently featured there, though. Among the pictures you'll see a big-honkin' statue of Jesus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC) In looking at ancestry.com, his maternal line appears to be Smith - Mansell - Tackett - Burdine. Nothing obviously Jewish there, but that doesn't prove anything either way. Some sources seem to think that the Burdine was Jewish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Another point: Geordie keeps talking about Orthodox Jewish law. First, Jewish "law" has no legal standing in America, and is better regarded as Jewish "custom" or "tradition". Second, she married a gentile, which no practicing Orthodox Jew would do. In any case, Elvis' family was predominantly Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC) I'm not on about his religious side I know he was Christian but a Jew is a Jew and it is a race and a religion, you can be Jewish without practicing any religion or another religion besides Judaism so your argument is flawed. Obama being Irish... no it is well sourced and many upon many people know of this, why is he in other wikipedia pages about him being Jewish then don't avoid it. http://www.amazon.com/Elvis-Gladys-Southern-Icons-Elaine/dp/1578066344/sr=8-1/qid=1159378028/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5892715-7426557?ie=UTF8&s=books http://www.amazon.com/Schmelvis-Search-Presleys-Jewish-Roots/dp/155022462X/sr=1-1/qid=1159378134/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5892715-7426557?ie=UTF8&s=books Is sourced.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC) He was at most one-sixteenth Jewish heritage, and the claim about his great-grandmother being Jewish seems to be in doubt in any case. You seem to be equating Jewishness with race. Jewishness is not a race. Supposing his great-grandmother was a practicing Christian, then the family stopped being Jewish, and maternal line is irrelevant maybe unless Elvis wanted to claim to be Jewish - which he didn't. He was 100 percent Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC) You are wrong. Jewish is both a race and a religion, the word Jew derives from Judea not Judaism, Judaism is the way of life for Jews but plenty of Jews practice other religions but still are Jewish look at Karl Marx for example, you can't stop being Jewish, you can be born Jewish so you will forever be Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Also you just admitted he had Jewish heritage which he did have, why is he under Jewish Americans the culture as Jewish? BECAUSE HE WAS JEWISH.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC) There is no such thing as a Jewish "race". That's a bogus, Nazi argument. I'm fractionally Irish. Am I Irish-American? Maybe. Am I Irish? No. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Some sources According to Jewish law, user GeordieWikiEditor seems to be right. Here are some reliable sources: "Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70. There can be no doubt that Martha’s mother "Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21. "Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3. It should further be noted that the American Jewish Desk Reference (1999) by the American Jewish Historical Society is the first all-encompassing reference to Jewish life in the United States, from 1654 to the present. This authoritative reference of nearly 900 entries covers all aspects of America's lively and influential Jewish culture. It says on p. 128, "Shortly before he became the King of Rock and Roll, a teenaged Elvis Presley was the Shabbos goy for his upstairs neighbor, the local rabbi in the Jewish section of Memphis, Tennessee." This strongly suggests that Elvis himself was well aware of his Jewish heritage. Onefortyone (talk) 23:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC) And his being a shabbos goy is a good indication that he himself was not considered to be Jewish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I don't think so. It only shows that he was not considered to be an Orthodox Jew, as his father was Christian. Only his mother seems to have been Jewish. Onefortyone (talk) 00:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I rather take Bugs's viewpoint: if the rabbi considered Presley a goy worthy of doing tasks disallowed for Jews on the Sabbath, the rabbi had pretty much accepted that Presley was not at all Jewish. It seems to me if the rabbi considered him a significant fraction Jewish, he would have chosen some other kid to do the disallowed work. Binksternet (talk) 01:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks, Bugs, though you can be sure the troll knows. And, as usual, the troll has deliberately and maliciously represented a source. His claim that based on Dundy "there can be no doubt that Martha's mother 'Nancy was Jewish'" is blatantly false, as he well knows. Dundy notes that a third cousin of Elvis's claimed that a great-grandmother of Gladys's was Jewish. That leaves considerable room for doubt. As the troll is very familiar with this article, he also well knows that the cousin's claim has been directly debunked by syndicated columnist Nate Bloom. I know the troll would love to drag us into a back and forth about this, but it's not happening, at least on my end. This is the first and last time that I will directly address the troll's comments in this thread. Henceforth, his lies and willful misrepresentations will be ignored and, as always, any attempt he makes to mess with the article will be swiftly reverted. Goodbye, troll. DocKino (talk) 00:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Don't call me a troll, DocKino. Elaine Dundy writes that Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish." (Elvis and Gladys, p.21). This does not sound as if Dundy leaves considerable room for doubt, as you falsely claim. Onefortyone (talk) 01:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Good plan. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Having kids named Sidney and Jerome is, of course, solid proof of Jewishness, although I'm sure that would come as a surprise to Sidney Poitier and Jerome Bettis, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Let's start again at the beginning: "His great great grandmother was Jewish, according to Jewish law it is passed down maternally in Orthodox Judaism therefore it should be stated". Wrong. Just wrong. Wikipedia isn't governed by Jewish law. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Nor was Elvis, nor his parents, grandparents, etc. Looking at Who is a Jew?, and IF the unproven rumors about his great-great-grandmother happen to be true, THEN Elvis could be considered a Jew by birth, but only by Orthodox Judaism. Other branches of Judaism disagree with that premise. Some of the posters here might be forgetting what the matrilineal thing is about. As a Jew once told me, "You know who the mother is, but you don't necessarily know who the father is." That was before DNA testing came along, but that's the core concept anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC) That is the point, really. If orthodox Jews wish to assert that by their laws, Elvis was Jewish, that is their right. It doesn't make it so by Wikipedia standards however. It cannot be, unless it is recognised by the non-'orthodox-Jewish' and the 'non-Jewish'. This is basic stuff, and implicit in WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and almost everything the project has ever said about verifiability. 01:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC) The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship. If one of the parents is not Jewish, the rule is that the child takes the status of the mother. Indeed, Orthodox and Conservative communities do not recognize the Jewishness of a person if only the father is Jewish. Accordingly, if the mother is Jewish, so is her child. Reform rabbis in North America have set standards by which a person with one Jewish parent is considered a Jew if there have been "appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people," such as a Jewish naming ceremony (remember that Elvis's parents named their son Elvis Aaron Presley). However, Orthodox Judaism considers a person born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if they convert to another religion. According to the sources I have given above, it seems as if Gladys was well aware of her Jewish heritage. To my mind, it may be mentioned in the article. Onefortyone (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC) None of which has the slightest relevance, since Wikipedia is not governed by any form of Jewish law, tradition, or anything similar. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC) However, Elvis's personal development may have been governed by some form of Jewish tradition, and this certainly would have considerable relevance for the singer's biography. Onefortyone (talk) 02:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) If you can provide reliable sources that demonstrate this, then maybe it would - though take note of WP:OR - you will have to find sources that themselves state this, rather than 'evidence' you find yourself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Why are you calling people trolls for putting point across? Also being Jewish is both a race and a religion, think back to all the expelling of Jews in different countries and the extermination of Jews in Nazi regime if it was solidly just a religion how would anybody know who is and who isn't a Jew? Because IT IS an ethnicity and can be argued a "race" depending on what you describe as a "Jew", you stated you have Irish heritage in you, then yes you are Irish-American you can't doubt that, unless you are Cherokee or whatever other tribes are Native Americans you ain't really American. Back to Elvis, it has been well documented and that is sources how can you deny it? Why do you not like the fact Elvis was a Jew? Also why do you keep AVOIDING my argument, why is he on other wikipedia pages stating he is Jewish? 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_Elvis_Presley 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers That totally contradicts you, so why ain't he removed of either of them? Plenty upon plenty of sources state Elvis was Jewish and being Jewish is maternally passed down the line, his mother WAS Jewish therefore Elvis himself WAS Jewish and he was well aware of this, are you upset that he was Jewish or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 10:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Jewishness is not a race. That's Nazi propaganda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Here we are. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) No, it actually was Nazi propaganda. They kept talking about the "Jewish race". I had thought that notion was dead. Silly me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC) "...being Jewish is maternally passed down the line". No it isn't. This is a belief held by (some) people of the Jewish faith. If Elvis was a believer in the Jewish faith, this might well be relevant, but since there is no evidence that he was, it is utterly irrelevant. And yes, 'Jewish' is not a race. Thanks for pointing out the Wikipedia articles that claim that Elvis was Jewish - since they were unsourced, I've deleted both references. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC) It is not Nazi propaganda it is true that Jews are both a race and a religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48937817.html http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html Many upon many things back it up, and no it doesn't matter what Elvis considered himself religious wise ethnically he was Jewish, a Jew is a Jew. Wow well done you can remove them but it doesn't answer why was it even there in the first place? Why is they many sources stating he was Jewish? Please define a source in your opinion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 14:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I have asked some actual Jewish editors to come here and weigh in on this discussion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC) As Andy says, it should only be in the article if reliable sources support it. As an editor who is not of the Jewish faith, but who's heritage is a quarter Jewish (not too shabby!), I will attest that the Jews are indeed a race of people. I'm sure you meant well Bugs, but I have to say that your comment that it is "Nazi propaganda" is quite hurtful. Joefromrandb (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Really? What are their distinctive genetic characteristics, i.e. what is the "Jew gene"? And if I decide to convert to Judaism, do I then become a member of this "race"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is not the place for this discussion. Debating this here will not improve this article. I'd be happy to continue the discussion on my talk page, or yours, should you be interested. Joefromrandb (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is the place, and it will improve the article (or at least keep junk out of the article). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I'm all for "keeping the junk out". But debating what constitutes Jewishness here will not improve the article. As multiple editors have noted, the only way to include that here would be if reliable sources back it up. They do not appear to. Inserting information based on a definition of Jewishness that was decided by Wikipedia editors would be original research. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Precisely. We have a couple of characters here who insist on labeling Elvis as part of some non-existent Jewish "race", and applying OR to conclude that Elvis is Jewish. As you say, that's bogus. Even if true, they have not provided any valid sourcing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I understand your point. And Muboshgu also makes a good one about Jewishness being an ethnicity as opposed to a race. I'd still prefer you to redact the "Nazi propaganda" comments. The efforts to include Elvis' alleged Jewishness in this article are misguided, but appear to be in good faith. Saying that someone is perpetuating "Nazi propaganda" is a very serious charge. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC) They need to redact the obsolete, offensive nonsense about Jewishness being a "race". Once they've done that, get back to me. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I think reliable sources are what matter. I don't see any reliable sources saying that Elvis Presley was Jewish, but if I've overlooked such a source please bring it to my attention. "Judaism 101" says: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do." In my opinion that is a fairly standard definition. (A minority opinion would include children of Jewish fathers as being Jewish.) But for our purposes we need verifiable sources. Concerning Elvis Presley being Jewish such sources seem to be lacking. Bus stop (talk) 18:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Bus Stop, your opinion is totally irrelevant. Wikipedia is not bound by Jewish law, tradition or beliefs. You are however right about needing reliable sources. These would need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish, by ethnicity and/or by faith. Any other 'definition' would constitute a misrepresentation of a the rules of a particular belief system as 'factual', which would be utterly contrary to Wikipedia policy. This is all that needs to be said on the matter, and any attempt to argue otherwise on this talk page will only constitute trolling, as policy changes cannot be decided here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Jew weighing in here, brought in by Baseball Bugs... Judaism is not a "race", it can be considered an ethnicity. My race is Caucasian. As far as what to make of Elvis' Jewish ancestry, which I was not aware of until Bugs brought it up to me, I'm not sure how much to make of it. To me, religion is mostly about how you identify, not this silly rule about which parent passes it down. IIRC, Catholicism (or is it Christianity as a whole?) passes it down through the paternal line, so a kid with a Jewish mother and Christian (or Catholic) father is kinda stuck there in terms of which wins out, by that argument. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC) That's a fair point. Joefromrandb (talk) 20:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC) They's a difference being a religious Jew and being a racial Jew. Anybody can be a Jew if converted to Judaism but you can also be of Jewish heritage, Jew derives from Judea not Judaism. It doesn't matter if Elvis considered himself Jewish or not he was well aware of his Jewish ancestry. Do you think he considered himself German or Scottish even though he had that in his heritage? No he just considered himself American, do you think Karl Marx considered himself Jewish? No he was a self-hating Jew, once a Jew always a Jew this is a fact. They is reliable sources further up stating and proving that Elvis was Jewish, his middle name is also kind of making it even more obvious.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Your personal views about what actually defines a Jew are as irrelevant as your claims that anyone here would "not like" Presley to be Jewish are baseless and mean-spirited. But what's most important is that your final claim is completely false. Not one single reliable source has been provided "proving that Elvis was Jewish." The strongest evidence--weak as it is--in a reliable source is Dundy's report that a third cousin of Presley's claimed that one of their great-great-grandmothers was Jewish. As detailed in the existing note, syndicated columnist Nate Bloom--who researched the matter more thoroughly than Dundy--rather conclusively debunked the cousin's claim. The other work you adduce, Goldstein and Wallace's Schmelvis, is a humor book. If you actually believe that it "proves" Elvis was Jewish, or even comes close, give us the page(s) and quote the evidence, which you have never bothered to do. DocKino (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Your only source, DocKino, seems to be Nate Bloom. Has this Jewish columnist written a book on Elvis? No, he hasn’t. He has only given his personal opinion on a website that helps and provides resources for couples with one Jewish partner and one non-Jewish partner. Is this really a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards? I don't think so. Be that as it may, on this webpage dealing with "The Jews Who Wrote Christmas Songs" (see [2]) we can read: Presley was not Jewish. Yes, some sources repeat a tall tale that Presley's third cousin told 20 years ago to a Jewish biographer of Presley. This cousin said that he and Presley shared a very remote Jewish maternal ancestor (a woman who lived in the early to mid 1800's) This biographer did no further checking on this cousin's story. She just reported it as "fact." A detailed check of available records shows that this maternal ancestor was not Jewish. Presley and his parents did share a two-family house in Memphis, Tenn. with a poor Orthodox rabbi and his family in the early '50s. I spoke to the daughter of this rabbi. Her mother, the rabbi's wife, and Presley's mother, Gladys, were close friends. Gladys, her mother told her, never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Her mother said that if Gladys had any knowledge of any Jewish ancestor, the mother was sure Gladys wouldn't have hesitated to mention it. Presley worked for the rabbi's family, doing tasks Jews were not permitted to do on the Jewish Sabbath. He did this for free. The rabbi, in turn, did things like lend Presley his record player and arrange for a summer camp trip for Presley. When Presley hit it big, he made a major donation to the rabbi's religious school. As I often tell people, the true story of the lovely relations between this rabbi's family and the Presley family is a more important and meaningful story than a story about Presley having a remote Jewish maternal ancestor. So much for this rather weak personal opinion. Bloom's only argument is his claim that a detailed check of available records (which records?) shows that Elvis's maternal ancestor was not Jewish and that he spoke to the daughter of the rabbi who allegedly said that her mother told her that Gladys never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Interestingly, Bloom didn't know the rabbi's family name, and he didn't even know the other source which explicitly states that Gladys told Elvis that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish. Furthermore, the friendship with the rabbi and his family and Elvis's major donation to the rabbi's religious school strongly suggest that there might have been some deeper Jewish connections. Onefortyone (talk) 22:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Why did he wear the Star of David? Why is books out in the big wide world telling everyone he was Jewish? How can I give you the quotes in pages from a book I don't own?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Exactly what are these "books...telling everyone he was Jewish?" Does even Dundy, for instance, say "Elvis Presley was Jewish"? I don't believe she does, but if you do, give us the page and the quote. How do you explain the fact that the two-volume biography by Peter Guralnick--widely recognized as the most thoroughly researched, authoritative treatment of his life--makes not the slightest suggestion that Presley was Jewish? Indeed, it's difficult to quote a book you don't own. Why are you even referring to a book you don't own, have never even looked at, and don't even recognize is a humor book? DocKino (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Geordie was already proven wrong about the gravestone of his mother supposedly having the star of David. "Elvis wore the Star of David"? Where's the evidence for that claim? I'm starting to think that he's making this stuff up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC) You guys need another reliable source? Here is Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31: Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. Onefortyone (talk) 22:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC) As I pointed out earlier,[3] there is no Star of David on Gladys' tomb. Since he got that dead wrong, I assume the rest of his so-called information is unreliable also. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is your personal opinion. Which source explicitly states that there is no Star of David on Gladys' tomb? The photographs didn't show all parts of the tombstone. Onefortyone (talk) 22:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC) His mother's tomb, like his own, is topped with a Christian symbol, a cross. That stands to reason, as the family was Christian. Regarding the "Aaron" business, I have relatives named Aaron, and they are all Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC) And as I also pointed out earlier, the tomb has raised lettering. There's nothing "carved into" it. It's plainly obvious that the author of that book has never seen it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is again your personal opinion. The source says otherwise and this is what counts on Wikipedia. Onefortyone (talk) 23:02, 27 April 2011 (UTC) The source is dead wrong, therefore it's unreliable and cannot be used. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Believe it or not, the source isn't wrong, as ElvisFan1981 has shown below. Onefortyone (talk) 23:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Looking through Google Images of Elvis, I don't see any that have a Hebrew symbol around his neck. If y'all can find even one, I'd like to see it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC) For one of several of Elvis's Star of David watches, see [4]. Onefortyone (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Just so that all those concerned have the full facts for this discussion regarding Gladys' grave and the Star of David; the grave at Graceland is not her original grave, as of course it was moved there with Elvis' in late 1977. Her original grave did indeed have a Star of David, and the grave was designed by Elvis himself with knowledge of his mother's Jewish roots in mind. Apparently Gladys made Elvis very aware of their Jewish roots from a very young age in his life. A quick google search shows clearly her original grave and the Star of David. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC) How many Jews do you know that have a Christian cross on their graves? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I am not saying that anyone is or isn't Jewish, I am just pointing out that her original grave did indeed have a Star of David on it; I think it's important for everyone to have the full facts within this discussion. The reasons for both symbols are, I assume, because Elvis and his family were primarily Christian, but Gladys and Elvis did have, or could have had, Jewish roots through the maternal line. The main point is that Elvis, albeit at some very basic level, was aware of his families Jewish heritage in some form. There are also images of him wearing the Star of David on stage, perhaps for his "technicality" argument, though, to be fair. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for the clarification. Although we may have disagreed in several points in the past, I like your contributions, as in most cases they are reliably sourced. Onefortyone (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I've asked our Jewish contributor to give his thoughts on what having both a 6-pointed star and a cross on one's headstone would signify. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC) AndyTheGrump—in reference to your post here, you say "You are however right about needing reliable sources. These would need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish…" Do you find support in Wikipedia policy for the idea that we would "need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish," or are these just your personal feelings? If you find support for that in policy would you please point such policy out? Bus stop (talk) 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) It did indeed have a a Star of David on the grave, he was aware of his Jewish heritage, what is the problem? Also how can I quote something from a book (i.e a page from a book) when I don't own it?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC) You mean you had never even looked at Schmelvis when you claimed that it "proved" Elvis was Jewish? That's very irresponsible of you. Please don't mention or link us to Schmelvis again. DocKino (talk) 01:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Also clearly it isn't a coincidence that he was on 2 other Wikipedia sites stating he was Jewish?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC) There are all sorts of poorly sourced or entirely unsourced rumors represented on low-quality Wikipedia pages. This is a high-quality Wikipedia article, with much higher standards. Instead of repeatedly referring us to low-quality sources that--coincidentally!--support your personal perspective, please read our policy on WP:Verifiability, particularly the section on reliable sources. If you had done that by now, you might have spared us the useless, time-wasting discussion of Schmelvis and other Wikipedia pages. DocKino (talk) 01:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Checking around, there are some pictures of him wearing a chai around his neck in 1977. This may have more merit than I had originally thought. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC) I have asked User:Malik Shabazz-a Jewish editor and an administrator I respect-if he would be willing to comment here. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC) There is a difference between 'being aware of having Jewish heritage' (though this hasn't actually been demonstrated yet), and 'being Jewish'. In any case, none of this is relevant, as we can only include statements on ethnicity, faith etc when provided with reliable sources - we cannot base this on our interpretation of photographs, as this would be original research - or more accurately guesswork. As for the content of other Wikipedia pages, firstly, they were unsourced (and hence, removed), and secondly, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for itself - this is common sense, as well as policy. Can I suggest that those wishing to contribute to the article look for evidence, read our policy on sources if they haven't already, and then come back if they have something of relevance? This is not a forum for general discussion about Elvis. Contributions not directly relevant to the article content are off-topic, and may be deleted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Here are my thoughts: 1) Elvis didn't consider himself a Jew, so I'd be very surprised if a reliable source could be found that says he was Jewish. 2) If Elvis had a direct maternal ancestor who was Jewish, he might be considered Jewish under Jewish law. But Wikipedia is not a rabbinical court, so Jewish law has no relevance here. 3) Consider WP:UNDUE. How relevant to his biography is Presley's possible Jewish ancestry—assuming support for such ancestry can be found in reliable sources? I think the way this is being handled—in a content note—is probably appropriate. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC) It doesn't matter if he considered himself Jewish he knew he had Jewish ancestry these pictures and family records do not lie it is even on the elvispresley website itself. About his other ethnicties Scottish/German when you read the references... it is a book? Please tell me how that is a reliable source. David Cameron is Jewish but doesn't define himself as Jewish, difference? NONE.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 09:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Brad Hirschfield,Author,radio and TV talk show host,and President of CLAL - The National Jewish Centres for Learning and Leadership. Listed as one of the nations 50 most influential rabbis in Newsweek,had this to say back in January 8,2010. "Elvis Presley would have turned 75 today,and people are still asking if he was Jewish. Well perhaps he was,at least according to Jewish law,if not in his own mind. According to some Elvis historians,his mother's maternal grandmother was Jewish - a woman named Nancy (others say, Martha) Tachett. Of course,Elvis never thought of himself as Jewish. At least there is no evidence that he did. From the standpoint of halakka (Jewish law),the answer is by all means. In fact according to the Talmud,one remains Jewish even if they choose to convert to another tradition. Jewishness is a forever kind of thing. Of course the implications of that law are potentially two - fold: on the one hand,nothing a person does can dissolve there connection to the Jewish people. Once you are in,you are in forever. On the other hand, it suggest that Jewishness can operate independently of any idiology or pratice,in which case one might be considered a member of the Jewish people even if they don't meet the test according to how some Jews interpret Jewish law. Elvis' Jewishness,like his music,reprisents a fluid blending of cultures and communities. I can't help but wonder how good it might be for Jews and Judaism if we were as good at applying that process to faith and community as Elvis was to music..." In clossing I would also like to mention also something Elvis himself mentions with humor,when asked why he wore a cross,the Hebrew letter chai,and a star of David around his neck. "I don't want to miss out on heaven due to a technicality," he said.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Exactly, these people who are saying you need a reliable source to prove he was a Jew well why would they be plenty of books and historians who have stated his mothers grandmother was Jewish? Elvis didn't consider himself a Jew by religion he was a devoted Christian but this about his ethnic Jewish ancestry, even Jews admit Jews are both a ethnicity/race and a religion yet people further up state it's only a religion so really their don't even know what a "Jew" is themselves, it does not matter if Elvis thought of himself religiously as Jewish (following Judaism) once a Jew always a Jew lots of Jews practice other religions or no religion but still remain Jewish. You say you have not even bothered to quote us on the Schmelvis book on which page(s) but if I've not got the book how can I? A whole website "http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html" which even before Jewish is elvispresleynews states his Jewishness, so many people who look up to Elvis know he had Jewish ancestry and so did he himself, the pictures here - http://www.debbieschlussel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/elvischai21.jpg You go on about books not being reliable sources, his "Scottish and German" ancestry are book referenced, please tell me how this is any different? Remember this is not about personal opinions this is about facts.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 11:56, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Another book - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IYbOeqSWVhUC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=elvis+and+gladys+jewish&source=bl&ots=7plM04vHyD&sig=EGfvH_vQs1h0zheRI9965N5sQN0&hl=en&ei=H1a5TYVGzrGFB-C-iIoP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=elvis%20and%20gladys%20jewish&f=false Quote "According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish" Another, http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/biography/elvis_presley_family_history.shtml Quote "White Mansell married Martha Tackett, a neighbour in Saltillo. Of note is the religion, Jewish, of Martha's mother, Nancy Tackett. It was unusual to find a Jewish settler in Mississippi during this time." Family tree - http://www.elvispresleynews.com/images/ElvisFamilyTree.jpg--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 12:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC) More again - http://www.urigeller.com/Elvis/07/Elvis07.htm Quote "Elvis Presley had confided to his close friend and spiritual advisor, Larry Geller, that he was Jewish. His great grandmother Martha Tacket was Jewish and Jewish law follows the mother's geneaology which makes Elvis Jewish. His mother Gladys did not disclose the fact to Vernon Presley as the South was very anti-semitic in those days. However, she wanted Elvis to go to a school that had mainly Jewish children, wanting him to mix with Jews and hopefully get a better education as she knew Jews were very concerned about education for their children. Many of Elvis' school friends were Jewish and remained friends when he became famous, such as George Klein, Marty Lacker and Alan Fortas. Elvis put a 'Star of David' on his mother's grave. When Elvis and Glady's bodies were removed from their original place of burial at Forest Hills Cemeteries in Memphis to Graceland Vernon removed the Star of David from Glady's grave. It was believed Elvis' body would be kidnapped from his original resting place so he and his mother's graves were moved secretly one night. Could it have been a commercial decision so they could charge fans to visit Graceland and view Elvis' grave I wonder? Elvis often wore a "Chai" on his neck, the Jewish symbol for "Life" and when asked why he wore a Chai and a Cross he answered, "I do not want to miss getting into heaven on a technicality". Elaine Dundy uncovered Elvis' Jewish lineage in her research for her book, "Elvis and Gladys". Elvis owned several watches with the Star of David as well as items of jewellery."--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 12:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Can somebody tell me why I'm getting a message saying "last change" final warning? I've NOT edited the Wikipedia page of Elvis since being warned, I am simply discussing and putting my point across on here not on the main page.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 14:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Presley was interested in spiritual matters and read a great deal, and talked to a diverse bunch of people, about his 'quest' for the meaning of life. He was interested in many religions, the occult, mysticism and the paranormal. He also wore an ankh symbol, as well crosses, chais, etc. (according to Linda Thompson). May be he thought he was descended from Rameses II... Someone, probably with a vested interest, once tried to argue he was about to convert to Mormonism just before he died. I grew bored ages ago about whether Presley was of German, Irish, Inuit, or Venusian descent, as any 'facts' regarding these matters have little bearing on his career and achievements, and this article is necessarily limited in what it can cover. We need reference to the places the family worshipped, where he learnt to sing or hear musicians, what religious music he listened on radio, etc, etc. This is the real relevant stuff, and we have it in the article. Scrap if you like about his Jewishness but if anything concrete is decided (is anyone going to mention whether he was circumcised?), please bury it really deep, in a footnote. Rikstar409 20:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC) I think we're close to wrapping this up. Aside from citing, for the umpteenth time, Dundy--whose information is already addressed in a footnote--Geordie has ignored my advice to educate himself on our WP:Verifiability policy and dumped another slew of "sources" that clearly fall below our standards. He also seems very confused about books--how to properly cite them and how to, you know, read them. Oh well. DocKino (talk) 21:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC) How can I tell you which page in a book it says he was Jewish when I do not own the book? You are still ignoring me, the Scottish and German origin is book referenced, tell me how the book is a "reliable source"--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 11:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Read Wikipedia:Citing sources. If you haven't got access to a book, you shouldn't be citing it as a source. You don't need to own it, but you do need to have read it. Haven't you got access to a library? As for what is considered a reliable source, see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. I'd also point out that we have a source (Nate Bloom - see note in article) who has done research into the question on Elvis's 'Jewishness', and described it as a "tall tale". On that basis, we cannot possibly state that Elvis was Jewish, but only that he was claimed to be, and that this has been contested. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC) How has he done research into it? I see no sources disproving that he wasn't Jewish? Secondly, I provided a link to a book which states he was Jewish and furthermore he himself knew he had Jewish ancestry and why do you think his middle name is Aaron? It kind of makes sense.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Working backwards: "It kind of makes sense" is not the sort of "reasoning" that has any place in an encyclopedia. We deal in facts here. Lots of devout Christians give their children Old Testament names. It appears you hadn't noticed, but Christians consider the Hebrew Scriptures part of their Holy Bible, thus the name "Old Testament." Think about it. You might see the light. You state "he himself knew he had Jewish ancestry" as if it is a fact. It is not. It is precisely the point of contention. Even the strongest source for the case that he had some Jewish ancestry--Dundy--never states that he knew he had Jewish ancestry. You yourself have never provided one single reliable source stating that Presley "knew" he had "Jewish ancestry." This remains no more than your personal article of faith. You make the usual beginner's error of demanding sources that prove a negative ("I see no sources disproving that he wasn't Jewish?"). But in fact, we do have syndicated columnist Nate Bloom, who qualifies as a reliable source, directly debunking the claim that appears in Dundy. And, if you are truly interested in Elvis, you should read the authoritative biography by Peter Guralnick, who reports no evidence that Presley was Jewish or aware of any Jewish ancestry. He does describe a young Elvis's employment as a Shabbos goy, which we've tried to explain to you means he was a gentile, not a Jew. And--guess what!--Guralnick himself is Jewish!! Hard to believe he'd try to bury Presley's Jewishness if it were a fact. Guess what, Geordie, it probably ain't a fact at all. "Has he done research into it"? You seem to be referring to Bloom (another Jew!) here. Yes, Bloom attests, with convincing detail, that he has done research into the question. That's exactly why we cite him. Finally--or firstly--you keep repeating yourself over...and over...and over...and you become less, not more, convincing with each repetition. If you have nothing new and substantive to add, it's time for you to move on to a different subject. DocKino (talk) 18:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC) GeordieWikiEditor, you have been given links to the appropriate Wikipedia policy regarding sourcing, citation etc. You have been told that you cannot use your own 'research' (actually, just guesswork) in the article. Nothing you have provided is of any relevance according to the standards required. In consequence, unless you can provide properly cited references from reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia, there is nothing further to be said on this topic, and I suggest you consider the subject closed. This is not a forum for general debate about Elvis, and I'd ask you not to continue posting comments which are of no relevance. Note that such comments may be deleted as off-topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Why would a website dedicated to Elvis make it up? http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html Why would so many books say he was Jewish not just speculated but discovered it and was just told not to mention it?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

There is much evidence that Elvis had deep Jewish family roots

Elvis's personal development must have been governed by some form of Jewish tradition, and this certainly would have considerable relevance for the singer's biography. Let’s stick close to the reliable sources, i.e. the material that has been published in books on Elvis:

"Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70.

Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21.

"Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3.

"Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31.

As ElvisFan1981 has pointed out, there are images of Elvis wearing the Star of David on stage. Gladys's original grave did indeed have a Star of David, and the grave was designed by Elvis himself with knowledge of his mother's Jewish roots in mind. Furthermore, there are several Star of David watches which Elvis designed with Marty Lacker and had manufactured by Harry Levitch Jewelers of Memphis. For one of these watches, see [5]. All this suggests that Elvis was deeply influenced by some form of Jewish tradition. The only person explicitly claiming that Presley was not Jewish is Jewish columnist Nate Bloom on a webpage entitled "The Jews Who Wrote Christmas Songs". See [6]. Bloom's only argument is his claim that a detailed check of available records (which records?) shows that Elvis's maternal ancestor was not Jewish and that he spoke to the daughter of the rabbi who allegedly said that her mother told her that Gladys never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Interestingly, Bloom doesn't know the family name of the said rabbi, and he doesn't even know Larry Geller’s statement that Gladys told Elvis that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish. This means that Bloom's remarks are poorly sourced. To conclude: Bloom’s personal opinion published on an obscure webpage isn’t a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards, whereas the other books cited above are reliable sources. Onefortyone (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you have chosen to continue the debate here, Onefortyone, rather than attempting to yet again insert this claim into peripheral articles - the debate clearly needs to be resolved here.

With regard to the sources you cite, I'd start by pointing out that Wikipedia does not need to accept the definition of 'Jewishness' as defined by certain followers of that faith. Even if it could be proven that he was 'Jewish' on the matrilineal line, that would not necessarily be acceptable per Wikipedia policy. Regarding the 'Star of David' etc, this falls under WP:OR, and is thus irrelevant. As for the merits of Bloom's research, I'll not comment, beyond pointing out that Bloom seems to have at least done some, rather than trawling for 'proof' in all sorts of obscure places. If you have evidence from reliable sources that Nate Bloom was wrong, let us have it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I have not yet seen that Bloom's remarks on the said, rather obscure webpage have been earnestly discussed by Elvis biographers. Onefortyone (talk) 02:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

True. But then our remarks on this obscure webpage haven't been either. So your WP:OR is of no consequence. Either find a reliable souce that states that Elvis was Jewish, and explains why, or drop the argument. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is an additional source: "On a gold chain around his neck, Elvis wore a gold Star of David and a crucifix." See Susan Doll, Elvis for Dummies (2009). This means that he was well aware both of his Jewish and Christian roots. Onefortyone (talk) 02:55, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

That's original research on your part. Maybe he just liked the way they looked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion. What about the other sources I have provided? Onefortyone (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm saying that wearing jewelry that is typically connected with a religion is not evidence that they are part of that religion. To claim they are, is original research. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:09, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen and Dan Sokolovic, "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. ... He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See above. This is not original research. Onefortyone (talk) 03:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of other concerns, "identification with the Jews" doesn't make you Jewish - it makes you sympathetic to the situation of Jews (cosider the difference between 'with' and 'as') - and yes, that is original research, in any case. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is another reliable source:

"The King of Rock 'n' Roll officially qualifies as a Member of the Tribe. Technically speaking, Elvis was a Yid. … The King actually knew about his Jewish roots, but his parents reportedly suggested he hide them."

See Lisa Alcalay Klug, Cool Jew: The Ultimate Guide for Every Member of the Tribe (2008), p.14. This is not original research. Onefortyone (talk) 03:28, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

"Technically speaking, Elvis was a Yid". Charming. But Does 'technically speaking' mean that Elvis was Jewish, or that some people like to claim he was? What his parent's 'reportedly' said is hardly evidence either... That isn't original research, but it isn't evidence, either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The source clearly says, "The King of Rock 'n' Roll officially qualifies as a Member of the Tribe." The Wikipedia article should simply cite what the sources say, and let the reader decide. Or do you have problems with the fact that Elvis had Jewish roots? Onefortyone (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Their trying to claim Elvis as one of their own don't make it so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. The 'tribe' are in no position to reliably assert who is or isn't a member - in case you hadn't noticed, there is no universal definition of 'Jewishness', even amongst those who claim to be Jews. If Elvis considered himself Jewish, then maybe it deserves mention in his biography. If others consider him to be Jewish, it is of little relevance. The article is about Elvis, not about ethnicity, theology, or any other abstraction. It is quite possible that Elvis had some Jewish ancestry - statistically speaking, most people with European ancestors probably do, never mind anywhere else. To state that he was Jewish requires more preciseness - what does this mean? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources determine the content of an article. If reliable sources support that Elvis Presley identified with Jews, that would be something that could find its way into an article.

The exact wording would obviously be important here, as the sources that have been presented here do not indicate anything like a serious commitment to or understanding of Judaism or Jews. Wording would have to accurately reflect the sparse notion that reliable sources reflect.

It doesn't seem that reliable sources say that Presley was Jewish, so that could not be said. His Christian orientation could be noted in the same sentence or in adjoining sentences.

The article doesn't have to be completely mute on Presley's interest in Jews and Jewish symbols. Reliable sources apparently comment on this, establishing for our purposes that there were dalliances with Jewish identity on the part of Presley, though it does not seem that reliable sources would support a statement that he was Jewish.

Obviously we would want to steer clear of jumping to conclusions (original research) that symbols worn as jewelry establish Jewish identity. I think that would require support in wording from reliable sources. Bus stop (talk) 04:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I think a few people have a problem with the fact that Elvis had Jewish ancestry and he was well aware of it that is not original search it is confirmed documented sources that are in books and all sorts. It doesn't matter if he practiced Christianity he was still Jewish and you need to accept that, it is well worth pursuing this because it is a must it is what made Elvis who he was and by adding it into the article provides another part of his ancestry.

All of them sources a person provided earlier on would be counted as reliable sources - check the Scottish and German origins of Elvis the references are books, why is this any different? It is not and I honestly don't know why I was final warned when my edit was clearly backed up and even more now someone has even found more reliable sources. It does not matter YOUR opinion of who is a Jew and who is not, we go by Judaism and the ethnic side of things and by both definitions he would have been considered a Jew/Jewish.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)No he would not. Even if the source were reliable (which it is not), it would not show that Elvis was a Jew. Under Jewish religious law, a Jew is someone whose mother was a Jew, or who has undergone a conversion. Not someone whose great great grandmother may, according to one source, have been a Jew. That interpretation would be even more flexible even than Israel's Law of Return, which for the purpose of immigration accords automatic citizenship to a Jew, or the child or grandchild of a Jew. Elvis was quite simply not a Jew. Full stop. Nor, for that matter, are many of the others to whom you repeatedly ascribe a Jewish identity. Why this obsession with labelling people as Jews? RolandR (talk) 22:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can provide evidence from sources that meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliability which unequivocally state that Elvis was Jewish, and explain the grounds on which they base this, this discussion is closed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Andy are you just acting ignorant here?

"Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70. Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21. "Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3. "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31.

Is perfectly reliable sources and enough evidence to face the fact he was Jewish.--Jimmyson88 (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC) - Comments by blocked sockpuppet of User:GeordieWikiEditor struck out. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not. It doesn't say he was Jewish. It says an ancestor was Jewish. "identification with" is not the same as "indentified as". Yworo (talk) 02:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Compromise

What about this version:

Although he did not practice the religion, Elvis seems to have had some halachically Jewish family roots, because of his grandmother's Jewish heritage. He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality." He also wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. Elvis's identification with the Jews seems to have continued throughout his life. He had the Star of David engraved onto his mother's tombstone, and when the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction.

This version explicitly says that Elvis did not practice the Jewish religion, but it mentions his identification with the Jews. I think this information should not be omitted. Onefortyone (talk) 00:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Way to troll it, good buddy! Sounds like the perfect foundation for a new, crucial article: Elvis Presley (SEEMS to Have Had Some) Jewishness. Don't you dare omit that article from Wikipedia. DocKino (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A clearer example of WP:SYN could hardly be found. To who does it 'seem', according to the evidence presented that Elvis had some Jewish roots? Why - OneFortyOne of course! In any case, we don't fill the article with every minor speculative detail about what 'seems' to be (possibly) true, even if sourced. Troll elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

What about this version:

Although he did not practice the Jewish religion, some friends and biographers say that Elvis had not only Christian but also Jewish family roots, because of his maternal grandmother's Jewish heritage. He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality." He also wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. According to Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen and Dan Sokolovic, "Elvis's identification with the Jews" continued throughout his life. He had the Star of David engraved onto his mother's tombstone, and when the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction.

All this is well sourced and not an example of WP:SYN. Wikipedia cites what the sources say, the reader is well informed about the topic. Onefortyone (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

It is still probably synthesis (read WP:SYN: "If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources"), but in any case, it is all speculative. Unless you can find evidence that Elvis's 'Jewish' connections have been meaningfully discussed in mainstream sources, I cannot see any point in including this. The fact of the matter is that if we wanted to include everything that has been speculated about in relation to Elvis, we could probably quadruple the size of the present article within a week or two. This article isn't intended to cover every possible aspect of Elvis's life, but rather the ones which one would expect to find in a mainstream encyclopaedia - which excludes minor 'maybe' issues that have hardly been commented on. Ultimately, there are only two 'factual' questions involved: did Elvis have any Jewish ancestry, and if he did, did this affect his life in any meaningful way. In both cases, the only answer anyone can possibly give is 'maybe' - not exactly Earth-shattering information. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not understand your argument. Elvis's 'Jewish' connections have been meaningfully discussed in a recent Elvis biography. It says, "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31. Mainstream sources by Elaine Dundy and Alanna Nash mention his Jewish family roots. These are the facts. Onefortyone (talk) 01:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why 141 doesn't seem to understand, or chooses not to comment on, the following: "The fact of the matter is that if we wanted to include everything that has been speculated about in relation to Elvis, we could probably quadruple the size of the present article within a week or two. This article isn't intended to cover every possible aspect of Elvis's life, but rather the ones which one would expect to find in a mainstream encyclopaedia - which excludes minor 'maybe' issues that have hardly been commented on." It is not unknown for 141 to ignore salient points in arguments against him - one of the reasons that accusations of trolling have been made against him. The fact is Presley 'identified with' a great many religions, spiritual beliefs, philosophies (like those behind his beloved karate), etc., and you could write a whole article on it all. But you can't cherry pick bits of it when they will not really tell the full extent of his interests. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 05:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Systemloc, 10 July 2011

The page is missing dates, and, in many cases, dates do not have the years. For example, the first Milton Berle appearance is listed as "April 3". It should also have the year, 1956. The July 17 date of his first appearance, at the Bon Air club, should include the year, 1954, as well.

Systemloc (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. FREYWA 08:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Are not the dates already referenced in the article and citations listed? Systemloc is simply asking for the dates of some events to be clarified. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:39, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

things people may not know about elvis

some people say elvis had an unusual scent but his wife disagreed. elvis liked lima beans he rode horses in his free time he ate bananas every tuesday elvis was a horrible student he had a hairy wrist he didnt like facial hair he he liked walnuts he twitched he didnt know how to ride a bike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.6.3 (talk) 05:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I lost my father in March this year and I miss him terribly. I read your comments tonight and I think to myself, your what my Uncle would call as being a non event dear!--Jaye9 (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)