Talk:Vande Mataram

Untitled

AFAIK Maulan Azad raised the point about the song being offensive. If anyone knows the details of where and when fill them up.

Another reason that is often cited is that VM lacked an official sound. The modern day rendition of the song was done based on a Raga and proposed by Gandhiji after the point of tune was raised. A committee decided that the new tune was not good enough to be played internationally - it was not recognizable in other cultures. While all national anthems have heavy beats and are very strong. VM was feeble. JGM on the other hand has a tune that is mixture of Indian and western music and had wider acclaim.

I wonder if this is true? Besides I wonder if all these details shud be filled in. They would make the article more about controversies. AY 05:04, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Can't speak to the post-independence discussion of the song as a national anthem. But the pre-independence hullabaloo over the song was deeper. See below.--iFaqeer 22:32, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Muslim Opposition

The Muslim opposition/allergy to the song was not, AFAIK, based on the religious symbology, but on the potrayal of Muslims, which they felt was very, very negative.--iFaqeer 22:30, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

The lyrics, especially as crafted for singing, were bereft of any mention of Muslims. You might be talking about Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay's book, the one in which it originally appeared.--LordSuryaofShropshire 22:41, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

No I am not. Vande Mataram is very much part of the national myth of Pakistan as an important symptom of why Pakistan was necessary.--iFaqeer 22:56, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

See [1] for how and why a non-offensive version was crafted.--iFaqeer 23:00, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Well, once again, you haven't met my statement. The lyrics contain nothing irreverent or negative about Muslims or anyone; they speak of Mother India. The phrase "Vande Mataram" was used as a stirring cry for Independence against the British regardless of religion by many across the country. What was upsetting about the lyrics was its use of Hindu philosophy and iconography where Bharat was seen as mata. Lastly, the 'Pakistans necessity was disputed by Muslims and non-Muslims alike even then.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:01, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

I already know the story better than you can imagine. The point I was making is that the song itself does not 'insult Muslims' per se... Muslims are insulted by the song. The song doesn't speak against Islam, or advocate Hindu India, but it offends the sensibilities of Muslims who view a feminization of and dedication to one's land as violating tawheed. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:03, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Again you're not listening to me. :D "irreverent or negative" is not something you can measure with an oscilloscope and certify. I am telling you that there is stuff in the original that Muslims did think (in their opinion; not yours or mine) offensive. I will dig up what I can about it.

On the dispute over the necessity, that is a whole other can of worms. I am not saying people did or not dispute. I am saying that the ones that do claim it as necessary use this as one of their arguments. Does that make sense?--iFaqeer 23:06, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Okay, the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. Here's one take, from the Indian Muslim side: [2]. Still looking for the Pakistani version.--iFaqeer 23:10, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Here's more: [3]. Again from Indian sources.--iFaqeer 23:15, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Added links to page and just a "See external links" in the text. Is that okay?--iFaqeer 23:20, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

No the truth's not in the middle at all. I told you that it is 1) A Hindu characterization of the motherland and was 2) set in a controversial novel called Anandmath. All the other objections on the part of Muslims stem from that. Both articles you showed me serve only to bolster my own argument. Anyway, no one's arguing here. I was simply saying that the actual song never had an anti-Muslim lyrics, which is what you were implying in the beginning by saying it was more than merely the Durga Mata slant.--LordSuryaofShropshire 23:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Don't have the time to research the song further. But whether the song itself had anti-Muslim lyrics or not, it's origin as a part of (what at least the Muslims saw as) a strongly anti-Muslim piece of literature made it very, very offensive above and beyond the other problem of using a very relgious song as as an anthem first by a party that claimed to represent all Indians and then as a candidate as a national song for a country that claimed to be a secular republic.

And from the encyclopedia point of view, the fact is that there is a controversy associated with the song--however innocuous its content might be--and we need to mention it. Preferably in as objective way as possible.--iFaqeer 23:31, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Updated the "Muslim institutions and Vande Mataram" section with the latest fatwa issued by JEU on Nov 3, 2009. Drajput (talk) 02:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

a, an, the

Would anyone mind if I (or anyone else) changed the references to this being "the national cry for freedom" and "the national song" to "a national cry for freedom" and "a national song"? In the former case, there's got to be other things that can be considered such; in the latter case, I think Saaray Jahaan Say Achchha has the same official status.--iFaqeer 23:19, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

That's completely false. "Vande Mataram" is well-acknowledged to have been the mantra that when cried would rouse people to a fever-pitch of pride and anger against the British. Sare Jahan se Accha, for example, is a beloved national song, but played no role as an Independence motto, especially to the extent that Vande MAtaram did. From Bengal it spread throughout the country and that was why it was the natural first choice for the national anthem. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:09, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Lard Saahab, chill, dude! Pre-partition, on an all-India basis both of those songs had at least the same status. Vande Mataram, being Bengali, was more common in that region. If you don't mind my saying so, saying that "Sare Jahan se Accha" played no role in Independence, would be funny if it didn't have such grave implications. That would cover the a/an/the discussion. Let me find references for you. That's why I didn't make the changes without discussion.

But the above has nothing to do with my other point. That of legal standing. Let me research that a little more. The answer to that might also raise the question that if SJSA, so to speak, did not play any role in the independence movement.--iFaqeer 20:33, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

:-) Surya wont step back. I've seen him discuss topics close to his heart with fervent passion. He wont take any thing but his own answer. Anyway, I support him. He is not making things up. I was not around when we gained independence or when we were in the process of gaining it. But from what I know now. Vandematram was THE song. It was no a song - nothing was close. Why else do you think I can sing Vande Matram in its entirity but still cant sing Saare jahan Se Achcha. Even though Hindustani seems to be first language and my knowledge of Bangla is limitted to reading and writting (not understanding ) it. It still is important to Indians. Had it not been for the fact that Muslims found it derogatory (for whatever reason) it would have been the National Anthem of India. Gandhiji was greatly pained by the fact that Jana Gana Mana was picked. BTW iFaqeer, you might want to look at Saare Jahan Se Achcha it might have some anti-partition POV thanks to my edits :-) --Ankur 21:41, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While this is not directly related to this debate I feel like discussing the status of the national songs. Many people in India consider Sare Jahan.. to be another National Song of India. While I was in school, I remember singing SJSA with pride and enthusiasm. I felt sad that I could not sing Vande Matram (VM). But now it is the other way round. This is what happened - From first grade till Seventh I changed 4 schools in all of them we sang SJSA but in my last school there was change of Principal, the new lady was a pro nuclear tests, Indra hating, child bashing (her own child not other's) autocrat [we did agree on Indira]. As is normal for such people they prefer VM, these kind still send out emails explaining why Jana Gana Manaa should be replaced with VM. Anyway, from that day on, we only sang VM in school. So gradually I forgot the order of the lines in SJSA. This explains that in modern day India SJSA is more popular except under special circumstances. Or maybe there has been a shift towards VM and it is more popular. Another thing, SJSA is popular in South India too. At least that is what I can tell from one Tamil friend. He was asking me to explain the meaning of SJSA. He could sing it even though he did not understand it. VM too is not difficult to understand thanks to heavy sanskritization. --Ankur 22:07, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Working on it. Also polishing the transliteration and translation. Not having learnt it in childhood (:D), I am going by your transliteration. See Talk:Saare Jahan Se Achcha for further notes

And I disagree with your characterization of Lord Sura; he might not be as, shall we say, compromising as you, but I see him as listening to reason without compromising his principles. I respect that. See User:LordSuryaofShropshire#Awards--iFaqeer 22:18, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Oh then you have not seen me debate on Gandhi (sub topic Hey Raam). Anyway, I never said Surya was wrong. I just meant that when he knows he is right he wont fall back to mediocrity (also read as the long, lengthy, boring article filled with points and counterpoints that pleases both gangs editing it and confuses anyone reading it) I too favour one balanced view to multiple unbalanced views like Surya. If not for people like him we will have more of the mediocre articles. --Ankur 22:29, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vanda Mataram had been voice of Indian People , their cry for Freedom, Hindus and Muslims equals. It deserves all the respect. If Muslims don't like it just forget about them, they have got their separate countries namely Pakistan, Bangladesh and also half of Kashmir. Even after all this still enjoy many special rights in India, which boosts of secularism. If India is secular, why their is separate Hindu Act and Muslim Organizations monitoring their own laws. Under name of the Constitution fo India all citizens should be equal. Why separate laws for Hindus and Muslims ? Is this what is meant by SECULARISUM ?

Why remove a link that explains a POV?

Someone has removed a link from the page without discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Vande_Mataram&diff=0&oldid=10009129

Why?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 20:27, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

Text of the song

Since the original song is in Bangla, or may be a highly sanskritized version, is Hindi an appropriate alphabet to write the text of the song? Shouldn't it be written in its original language, Bangla or may be Sanskrit? Thanks. --Ragib 06:22, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, Sanskrit uses the Devanagri script as well, so what difference does it make? --Gdi

Ok more precisely, the original song is written in Bangla. That's exactly my point. It was not written in Hindi. --Ragib 1 July 2005 06:08 (UTC)

Why this much disagreement with Pure Indian Culture

I think the people of India love and respect Vande Mataram than they do to Jana Gana Mana. Even people of other nations love this great Indian National Song. ZFor example as a part of BBCs 70th anniversary celebrations, an online survey of World’s ‘top ten’ songs was conducted in November 2002. It received tremendous response from millions of Internet users from 155 countries; results were declared on December 21, 2002 and the Irish National Anthem A Nation Once Again topped the list. Vande Mataram acquired second position. Although the voting was for a version with the tune set by A R Rahman a new age Musician of India, the song has been extremely popular in India for over 100 years. Several musicians and singers have recorded it on gramophone records from as early as 1905. This shows how significant Vande Mataram is.

All India Radio & Doordarsan, the government broadcasting services use Vande Mataram as their Start-up program. Why is it so?. So the NPOV Agains it is a bit painful.

POV CHECK REMOVED Tux the penguin 11:25, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

What do you want to say exactly?? Do you mean to ask that why Vandemataram is not national anthem? Means I didnot understand why you have given this headline?? - Shilpa Choudhari

The Song in Bengali alphabet

Since this song was written orginally in Bengali the article should atleast contain this song in Bengali scripts. I found Bengali scripts in Jana Gana mana and therefore, someone should include the Bengali script version of the song.

I did. Can someone check? --ppm 05:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Why Remove the link to a muslim view of this song??

165.21.154.14 removed a link to [4] Check out the version here: [5] -Copysan 08:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC) Why cant Muslims worship their motherland?--Darrendeng 05:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Romanized lyrics?

I'd really like to see a Romanized version of the lyrics, in the Latin alphabet. The best I can do by ear is "sujeraam sufalaam mataram maleyeja sitaraam," which is horrible. --KJ 05:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

vande mataram in MP3 format =

See external link Bharatveer 13:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration

Is it possible for some to get a transliteration for this song?? Almost all the text looks like ????????????????? !

thanks, Mitternacht90. --e. 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

National? Song

bande Mataram is not the national song of India.

Short version, Romanization

Looks like someone cut down the Devanagari text in the short version. If this is appropriate, should we extend this cutting to the Bengali text for consistency?

Also, some people have asked for a transliteration of the text. Should we have a Sanskrit transliteration and a Bengali transliteration under the Devanagari and Bengali script sections? --SameerKhan 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be fine. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 18:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Devanagari transliteration

Why do we have the devanagari transliteration of this song? what is its significance?? Sarvagnya 05:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It is because Hindi, The national language of india is written in devanagari script.Bharatveer 09:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

neither is hindi the national language of india nor is this song written in hindi. use of devanagari therefore is not warranted. Sarvagnya 09:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place where you show your dislike of Hindi. AND Hindi is considered as the "RASHTRA BASHA" of India. So devanagari is required.Bharatveer 09:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

stop drawing conclusions about my likes or dislikes. you are not qualified to do that. as for hindi being 'considered' the rashtra bhasha(sic), it is not for either you or me to 'consider' anything or elevate a language of our choice to be the 'rashtra bhasha'(sic). it is for the constitution of india to decide. and the constitution is very clear about this. the constitution specifically says that there is no 'single' national language. all languages are on par with each other. if you are ignorant of these facts, read up on relevant stuff first before you start drawing conclusions about my likes and dislikes. for starters you can start reading the en.wiki page on national languages of india. Sarvagnya 10:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

just because somebody took you for a ride by telling you that hindi is india's national language, doesnt mean you have to keep parroting it. Sarvagnya 10:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Trying to delete devanagari from every wikipedia article clearly show your POV.I dont need to refer wiki articles to know that HINDI is considered as the official language or the RASHTRA Bhasha .It is clear who is taking whom for a ride here.Bharatveer 10:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Having devanagari in every damn article concerning india by very conveniently presuming hindi to be the natl lang or rashtra bhasha or whatever is clearly POV pushing. Deleting it is NOT! Sarvagnya 10:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether Hindi is or is not the national language of India is irrelevant. The song was written in Bengali. The version in the Devanagari script belongs in the articles written in Devanagari-script languages such as Hindi, Marathi, etc. Just because a song was written in India doesn't mean it must be represented in Devanagari, especially in an article written about it in English. --SameerKhan 10:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sarvangya, please see WP:CIVIL Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• why? Sarvagnya 22:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

SameerKhan, Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay even has his name also written in Hindi on his article. Ragib does not have a problem with this, I really don't see why you do. Like it or not, at least 40% of Indians speak Hindi, making it the most used language, and outside of the Indian subcontinent nearly everyone speaks Hindi.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

What does devanagari being used in Bankim's page have to do with this? If devanagari has been used there, i dont know if there is a specific reason. that can be taken up on that talk page. as for ragib, ragib who? and what does the percentage of a particular lang speakers have to do with this. english is spoken across the whole world, so will that mean you will give english(roman) transliterations for every article on tamil wikipedia? answer my question or dont answer. my question again, what is the significance of devanagari on this article? Sarvagnya 18:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ragib is the "unofficial expert on all thing Bangla". Sameer Khan is familiar with Ragib, that wasnt aimed at you.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"Highly Sansksritized Bengali" - Note the Sanskrit part. What is your issue with Devanagari? Vandae Mataram is a unique bhajan ok? Its not like every article on Tamil wiki including (Kootu, Parippu Podi, etc.) Vande Mataram is a unique song for all of India, deserving a Hindi transliteration for the simple fact that its prevalent only in Hindi speaking regions (South has Saraswati Vandana and the like). Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Convoluted logic. What is your point? What do you mean by 'prevalent only in Hindi speaking regions?'. Elaborate please or i will revert after a few hours. Sarvagnya 21:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Its written in what amounts to Sanskrit, thats why Devanagri stays. Might I ask why you have the same issues in Belgaum?Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

" Its written in what amounts to Sanskrit"  !!! What does that mean? Explain further.

As for the Belgaum page, the issue there is TOTALLY different. Please go through the pages and pages of talk there on that page, my talk page, aksi's talk page, mahawiki's talk page, sundar's talk page and nichalp's talk page before you jump to conclusions and pronounce your judgements. Sarvagnya 22:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

ITs an extremely highly refined form of Sadhubhasa (language of sages).

Says who? Did you just make that up on the fly or do you have sources to back up your claim? Sarvagnya 22:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, Bankimji was a Brahmin, which means he studied Sanskrit.

Not necessarily. Just because someone is brahmin does not mean they should study sanskrit. Sarvagnya 22:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Most sources, newspapers just say its written in Sanskrit, and since those are the best sources to cite, Sanskrit script must be used to transliterate the poem.

Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Bengali, Sadhubhasha, Sanskrit, highly sanskrtised,... Which language is the poem in? If it is sanskrit, then the bengali transliteration needs to go. If it is in bengali, the nagari transliteration needs to go. Sarvagnya 22:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Its a compromise. We keep both, as it is up for debate. I don't see the need to delete either, they are both valuable. Urdu (as per below) does not belong because Vande Mataram is a Hindu-influenced song. Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Urdu does not belong. All right. But what makes you think urdu does not belong because this song is 'hindu influenced'. Please stop asserting your POV based on stereotypes you hold. Urdu like Sanskrit is just a language. Neither are hindus prohibited from using urdu nor are muslims prohibited from using sanskrit. Sarvagnya 22:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The similarity with controversy here and in Belgaum is hatred towards other languages.Pushing and marketing the POV of a certain community.Its very unfortunate and highly objectionable. mahawiki 10:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I think everyone should know this: Go through Sarvagnya's contributions and talk pages and you will find that he has a Anti-Hindi and Anti-Devanagiri bias. One of his major contributions to Wikipedia has been the deletion of Hindi names and Devanagiri script from every India related article.

He has done exactly the same thing for three songs which are very important in India(Jana Gana Mana, Saare Jahan se Accha, Vande Mataram). The fact that Devanagiri is a major script in India and Hindi is the official language of India means that every Indian will want to read this article and hence it is necessary to keep the Devanagiri version. Just because of ONE POV-pushing Wikipedian we are indulging in an endless debate!

And why should ONE biased Wikipedian be allowed to hold Wikipedia to ransom? How can one persons opinion be greater than the Constitution of India. The Constituent Assembly which had representatvies from all parts and communities of India had collectively taken the decision. If Sarvagnya is unhappy with it , let him keep it to himself, why should Wikipedia suffer?

Contoversy

"The choice was slightly controversial, since the Vande Mataram was the one song that truly depicted the pre-independence national fervour." I have deleted this sentence as it gives the impression that the song was controversial as it was the only song that truly depicted the pre-independence national fervour, which obviously is not the case.MANOJTV 04:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Urdu

I'm confused. What do we need the Urdu translation for? This is a page written in English about a song written in Bengali - those two should be the only languages here. If we add Urdu to this page, why not also add Oriya, Marathi, Telugu, and other major languages of India? The translations in those languages should only be made available in the Wikipedia sites dedicated to those languages, and not to the English Wikipedia. --SameerKhan 19:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I agree with SameerKhan. I don't find any logic in having the Urudu translation of this song appearing here. It should be deleted. But let us wait to find out what other users feel about it. MANOJTV 07:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
    • couldnt agree more. was going to remove it myself but was thinking of doing it one at a time - the devanagari transliteration first and then the urdu translation. thanks for removing it tho. Sarvagnya 10:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • Keep only Sanskrit/Devanagari , English, and Bengali. No UrduBakaman _Bakatalk 22:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• • I second Bakaman.mahawiki 10:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation for "Sanskritised form"

The citation provided for the assertion that it is in sanskritised bengali does not establish the said fact. Infact, the citation claims that Vande Mataram is a sanskrit song. Provide better citations. Sarvagnya 22:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Read the link for Sadhubhasa provided on the page. Anyway I used Sadhubhasa as a compromise, as I would also give a judgement call of Sanskrit. Bengali words usually have endings in vowels (Kamunaccho, Bhalo, Kothai etc.) while Sanskrit have an -am ending (amitam, namaskaram, shastram, narayanam). Since every link calls it Sanskrit, you might as well keep Devanagari script. Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Bengali is a language that takes much of its vocabulary from Sanskrit, with some words inherited, and some borrowed. This song is clearly written in Bengali, albeit with many Sanskrit borrowings. This would be the equivalent of an English song with numerous Latinate or Greek-derived borrowings. No matter how many Greek borrowings you put in an English song, it does not "become Greek", and it does not need to be written in the Greek alphabet. Lines like বাহুতে তুমি মা শক্তি, হৃদয়ে তুমি মা ভক্তি, (bahute tumi ma shokti, hridôee tumi ma bhokti) have exclusively Bengali grammar, with the Bengali locative case endings, with words like "ma" and "tumi", etc. Sure, lots of the rest of the poem have very Sanskritic endings, but once again, the song is in Bengali. Even if the song were Sanskrit, keep in mind that when Sanskrit (or at least languages extremely close to what we now call Sanskrit) was actually spoken by large communities, the script used to write it was not what we now know as Devanagari. It was written in a script that later evolved into both Devanagari and Bengali scripts, along with many others. Only later did Sanskrit get written in the modern Devanagari script, well after it (or technically, a language very similar to it) ceased to be a spoken language. --SameerKhan 00:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sanskrit has never ceased to be a spoken language, its usage had waned under Mughal and British oppression. Are you trying to tell me Devanagari is younger than Bangala script? We both know thats totally untrue. Nearly every source calls it Sanskrit [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. I still don't see people's issue with keeping Sanskrit script on the page, especially Sarvagnya's issue. Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I never said Sanskrit ceased to be a spoken language. I am well aware of the fact that small communities keep it alive; this is why I said "by large communities", where by "large" I mean communities like those who speak other Indian languages like Punjabi, Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, Assamese, etc. Either way, that is irrelevant. I also never said that the Devanagari script is younger than the Bengali script; that is ludicrous. Both evolved from the same ancient Brahmi script - so how could one be older? (When I said "Only later did Sanskrit get written in the modern Devanagari script" - I did not mean "and it written was Bengali before", I just meant "it was written in something else before". Looking back at what I wrote, I see that I was ambiguous.) Anyhow, since the song does have a lot of lines in Sanskrit grammar, I can understand if people wanted to have the Devanagari version on there, since nowadays people think Sanskrit was always written in Devanagari... but I just thought I'd clarify my earlier points. --SameerKhan 04:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

SameerKhan is right that Devnagari is just another script. All the corresponding varnas (or bornos if you will) are there in Bangla and as late as the sixties and seventies, when Sanskrit textbooks were used for schools in West Bengal they were usually written in Bangla. One of my grandparents wrote a book very popular in pre-Partition Bengal for elementary Sanskrit and it was written completely in Bangla script. Sanskrit hasn't always been officially "married" to Devnagari just as Turkish hasn't always been Romanized. --Antorjal 16:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Bengali or Sanskrit?

Bakasuprman, all the citations u've given above seem to suggest that it is a Sanskrit song. But the article says it is in Sanskritised Sadhubhasha for which I asked for citations and havent received any yet. Now if it is a Sanskrit song,

a) Why do we have the Bengali transliteration?

b) What makes you think Devanagari is the de facto 'right' script to represent Sanskrit? I dont know if you understood Sameer's points fully. What he is trying to say is, when Sanskrit was in vogue, like when say, the Ramayana was supposedly composed, it was not written in Devanagari. We do not know that it was even written down, but even if it was it wasnt in Devanagari. The use of Devanagari for Sanskrit started many many many centuries later. And even today, none of the people in South India and many other parts of India use Devanagari for writing or reading Sanskrit.

Anyway, forget my point "b" for the time being. Just answer (a). Sarvagnya 05:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi.Although few people quarreling here have problems with every language other than their beloved mother-tongue.I dunno why do they have 'allergy' with Nagari script.But lets not get into it.Devnagari script is used for writing in Marathi,Hindi,Nepali,Sanskrit.See Devnagari If the song Vande Matataram is in Sanskrit,devnagari script should be retained here.I am not sure of Bengali script?Why is Bengali transliteration used here? mahawiki 09:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be best if both Bengali and Devnagri were used. Why not have both? Obviously because it is in the language Bengali, Bengali script would be appropriate. There is no harm in having it in other scripts. Per Wikipedia policies, Devnagri is the script used to write Sanskrit words here. Also because it is a national song of India, and Hindi is the national language (there 22 other official languages, I know) I think we should have it in Devnagri. Anyway, in Bengali it is pronounced as Bonde Matorom, so "Vande Mataram" is the Sanskrit/Hindi pronuciation of the song anyway. Gizza^{Chat ©} 11:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Dharmic) for Wikipedia's policy on writing indian scripts onto articles. Thanks Gizza^{Chat ©} 11:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps,Gizza is right.mahawiki 15:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the first part (which is the national song) is Sanskrit and can be transliterated in Devnagari. But much of the full song is plain Bengali and hence the full version should have only a Bengali transliteration--ppm 02:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It is curious that the first stanza of a song is in one language and the rest is in another. Whoever is saying the first stanza or even the full song is in Sanskrit, may I know on what basis you are making the claim? Does any part of the song use words that you wouldnt find in the Bengali dictionary? Does it NOT follow Bengali grammar? On what basis are you claiming that it is NOT bengali? On the flip side, those who claim that it is Bengali or Sadhubhasha or even Hindi, on what basis are you making the claim? Sarvagnya 02:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be precise:

সুজলাং সুফলাং মলয়জশীতলাম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
শস্যশ্যামলাং মাতরম্॥ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
শুভ্রজ্যোত্স্না পুলকিতযামিনীম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
পুল্লকুসুমিত দ্রুমদলশোভিনীম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
সুহাসিনীং সুমধুর ভাষিণীম্ Mixed grammar and vocabulary
সুখদাং বরদাং মাতরম্॥ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary

কোটি কোটি কণ্ঠ কলকলনিনাদ করালে Modern Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary
কোটি কোটি ভুজৈর্ধৃতখরকরবালে Modern Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary
কে বলে মা তুমি অবলে Modern Bengali grammar, basically tôdbhôb vocabulary
বহুবলধারিণীং নমামি তারিণীম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
রিপুদলবারিণীং মাতরম্॥ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary

তুমি বিদ্যা তুমি ধর্ম, তুমি হৃদি তুমি মর্ম Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary
ত্বং হি প্রাণ শরীরে Mixed Modern Bengali and Sanskrit grammar, mixed vocabulary
বাহুতে তুমি মা শক্তি Modern Bengali grammar, basically tôdbhôb vocabulary
হৃদয়ে তুমি মা ভক্তি Modern Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary
তোমারৈ প্রতিমা গড়ি মন্দিরে মন্দিরে॥ Modern Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary

ত্বং হি দুর্গা দশপ্রহরণধারিণী Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
কমলা কমলদল বিহারিণী Modern Bengali grammar, mixed tôdbhôb and tôtshôm vocabulary
বাণী বিদ্যাদায়িনী ত্বাম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
নমামি কমলাং অমলাং অতুলাম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
সুজলাং সুফলাং মাতরম্॥ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary

শ্যামলাং সরলাং সুস্মিতাং ভূষিতাম্ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary
ধরণীং ভরণীং মাতরম্॥ Sanskrit grammar and vocabulary

So the case could be made that the song is constantly switching from modern Bengali (with many undeniably Bengali features that any Bengali would use natively) to Sanskrit (with many archaic features that no native Bengali speaker would know of without special training in Sanskrit grammar). In my linguistic opinion, the song as a whole is neither all Bengali or all Sanskrit. If the anthem is only taken from the first few lines, it is purely Sanskrit, and can be written in either the Bengali script or the Devanagari script or a host of other scripts that have been used to write Sanskrit over the centuries. If we are talking about the whole song, the Bengali vocabulary and grammar are undeniable. --SameerKhan 03:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to be precise,

Bankim Chandra included it as part of Anandamath, a Bengali novel, published in 1882. The novel was NOT written using Devanagari script.

SO, why would the original form of the song be ignored? If it were possible to go back in 1882 and force Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay to write the song using Devnagari, the Bangla script could have been thrown down the drain. UNTIL that happens, the song should definitely be presented in its original form. I'm quite surprised to see questions about why the song is presented in Bangla script ... the article clearly mentions the song as part of a novel written in Bangla.

I am also surprised at the notion that Everything associated with India has to be written in Devnagari. Why? From what I've learnt so far in Wikipedia, India has a very large non-Hindi speakers. Why should everything be forcefully transliterated in Hindi/Devnagari, where the original language/script is not dead, but rather thriving? --Ragib 06:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Pls see User: Gizza's replies . Hope it helps.Bharatveer 08:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Please also see National Song. Based on this, and the above comments by Sameer Khan, Gizza and also based on a similar discussion on the discussion pages of Jana Gana Mana, I think that (probably) we can agree on the following points -

1.) The full song was written in Bangla.
2.) The first stanza which was adopted as the national song was as much Sanskrit as it was Bangla.
3.) Either with 2.) being valid or otherwise the first stanza in its Sanskrit version was choosen to be the national song of India.
4.) This article is about Vande Mataram - The National Song of India, not just some song called Vande Mataram, written by BankimChandra.
5.) On Wikipedia (As per Gizza's comments) Devanagari is used to write Sanskrit, although it might not be the case always (historically) and in some parts of India.

So what I understand from this is that Bengali and Devanagari versions must be there, and of course the English translation. I believe that the Urdu translation does not have a place here.

Now if we are agreeing to this and based on the discussion on Jana Gana Mana talk page also, some people who are very active in deleting Devanagari texts from every article should first confirm their POV using google. I also understand that every aricle about India on an English wikipedia should not have lots of Devanagari text in it but their are special things of national importance and we ought to research before we push our POV to others. --APandey 11:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And in case you do not agree with 2.) and 3.) above, just listen to the official mp3 version at mp3 version to make sure that the Sanskrit version is the national song. --APandey 11:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr.Apandey, people have made better arguments and cases to have Devanagari there. Your argument is not only weak but also offensive by being suggestive. What do you mean by some things being special and nationally important and hence should be represented in Devanagari. Neither Devanagari nor hindi has any special status in the Indian constitution(and even if a misinterpretation to the contrary is popular belief, I dont see any reason why it should be carried over to the wikipedia.). Hindi is just another language like Marathi or Manipuri or Telugu or Kashmiri. So stop talking like Hindi or Devanagari descended from the skies and everyone has to bow their heads to it. Sarvagnya 16:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And as for your contention that the first stanza is Sanskrit or may be considered as such, it is still ambiguous if not absurd. Sanskrit has influenced dozens if not hundreds of Indian languages and there may be hundreds of poems in these languages where if you take a stanza or a line or a word in isolation, it might look like Sanskrit. That doesnt mean the poem was written in Sanskrit. Anyway Sameer's explained it better and you arent helping things by making an emotional display of your stereotypes. Sarvagnya 16:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Also stop saying 'This is the national song of india' not 'some song'. Vande Mataram, whether it was india's national song or pakistan's national song or not a national song at all, would still be encyclopaedic and noteworthy, simply because it was an immensely popular song, not to mention that it spurred Indian freedom fighters further towards their cause. Sarvagnya 16:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

(Replying to Apnadey)

• First of all, can you please tell me whether, like Jana Gana Mana, was the "Hindi version" of Vande Matram adopted as the national song? [11] doesn't mention this. If it was the *hindi* version that was adopted as the national song, I don't have any objections to the Devnagari script rendering for the stanzas of the song chosen as National song. So please clarify this. I've clearly mentioned in Talk:Jana Gana Mana that based on the references provided there about the "hindi version", I don't have any objections to the Devnagari script there.
• To the best of my understanding, the (proposed) policies cited by DaGizza call for writing in original form. As mentioned above, Anandamath was written in Bengali script.
• Provide references for your #3 point
• Sure, I don't have any problem with #5 (and the related policy), but show me a copy of Anandamath in its original form that uses Devnagari script in the part of the song. The version I read didn't have that.
• Number 4 is strange. Again, do you mean ANYTHING related to India must forcefully be converted to Hindi/Devnagari? By that logic, Tagore would have to be re-written in Hindi!! Is something written in Bangla less Indian?

Please, I emphasize again, show me the reference (from Indian govt, or other reliable sources)that says that the "Sanskrit version" was chosen as the national song. --Ragib 21:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind if Devnagri script isn't used here as long as I know why the name of the song here is "Vande Mataram." In Bengali, it should Bonde Motorom. Isn't Vande Mataram a Hindised/Sanskritised name of the song? Is so, wouldn't it better if the name was changed to Bonde Motorom? Gizza^{Chat ©} 05:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This is with respect to Gizza's question on why the song is named "Vande Mataram" instead of "Bonde Matorom" the way it is pronounced in Bangla (THE language of creation). The answer is simply that for naming of proper nouns, many Bengalis have used a very Sanskritized transliteration. Therefore even my nick Antorjal (is pronounced Ontorjal}. And Rabindranath is Robindronath and Bankim Chandra is pronounced Bonkim Chondro. The popular "given" name sticks but it's a curious problem. When I write Bengali in Roman characters, I am usually phonetic (like many friends from Bangladesh) but many other people write it highly modified Sanskritized (some friends from West Bengal). But I think it's a matter of personal taste and habit. My point is the pronunciation of PROPER NOUNS like Vande Mataram are the same... that is it sounds like "Bonde Matorom" regardless of how they are spelled which on the other hand is dictated by the creator. So if I am were Bengali (which I am) and my name was Subrata (which it is not) I wouldn't write it in Sanskrit because as a proper noun it was created that way. And you'll find a sizeable number of people with the same pronunciation whose names are spelled Subroto (the way it is pronounced)--Antorjal 05:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Antorjal is totally right in this respect. Any bilingual Bengali-English speaker knows of the frustration of Bengali spelling in the Latin alphabet, due to most people's need to refer to the Sanskrit spelling of Bengali words. The Shôngshod Bhôbon ("parliament building") is normally written "Sangsad Bhaban", or sometimes even "Samsad Bhavan", totally disregarding the Bengali pronunciation in favor of an attempt at the Sanskrit pronunciation. The word lokkhi ("obedient") is written "Lakshmi" or "Laxmi" even if this is very far from the Bengali pronunciation. Bengalis write these words this way because they are still spelled with all those letters from Sanskrit that are totally silent in Bengali (some of these letters are of course still pronounced in other modern languages like Hindi, e.g. "Lakshmi"). It's worse with people's names, such as Bandyopadhyay or Biswas (pronounced Bôndopaddhae and Bishshash respectively). So as Antorjal said, just because the song is written "Vande Mataram" instead of Bônde Matorom in English does not make it no longer the Bengali version of the song. Many Bengalis are just loath to write Bengali words phonetically in English, especially for proper names. --SameerKhan 07:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

* Let me add some more points to SameerKhan's brilliant points. The frustration is acute because one has to consider the various ways the interest group will spell the the name while using a search engine. It's something we've had to deal with all our lives, but became more pronounced when the Net became popular because all of a sudden each and every one of us had to figure out a way to communicate using Roman letters. For example I used to edit a literary little magazine in Bengali and had to register the name in English in many ways including Jatishshor, Jatisshor, Jatismor, and Jatismar and all the names are pronounced the same and in the same Bangla language! In Hindi, film and media have exerted major influence and so a Hindi-speaker might not appreciate the problem as much. For example, many Hindi speakers might agree with the transliteration of a hypothetical film, Dil tujhe pukare, whereas an Urdu speaker might write the same as Dil tujhay pukaray. Bangla has had no such dominant forces. Let me also add that I have not seen a single indication that Bankim Chandra used Devnagari characters in any part of his novel. He is tough to read without knowing Sanskrit but so is Beowulf to the modern English reader. Just as Beowulf is English, Vande Mataram is Bangla. --Antorjal 16:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The Urdu translation

• First off, the translation written on the article page is uncited.
• And secondly, the consensus on this page seems to be that the Urdu translation is not required. See here.
• Unless both the the veracity of the translation and the need to have it here is established, I will be deleting the Urdu translation. Sarvagnya 03:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Who is the composer?

Does anyone know who the composers of the various versions of Vande Mataram are? I think it is absolutely vital to mention the composer of the accepted (most popular) one. --Antorjal 04:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. I had some time on my hands, so I did some researching and an extensive expansion/rewrite. --Antorjal 21:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a also a sanskrit slokam starting with the same words; this is very popular in South India and sung in a number of Carnatic Concerts as a sloka or as an ending veneration.

    Vande maataram Ambikaam Bhagavati
    Vaaneera Maa Sevita Kalyaani Kamaliya Kalpalatika!
    Kaivalya Naada Priyaa Vedaanta Pratibhaagyamaana Vibhava
    Vidwun Manoranjani Sri Chakraankita Ratna Pitha Nilayaam
    Sri Raja Raja Iswari, Sri Raja Raja Iswari, Sri Raja Rajeswari!

Should not the tile reflect this? Say "Vande Mataram (Bankim Chandra Chatterjee)" or something like that? Or, all the different slokas that start with Vande Mataram should be included....

- N.

There can be an other uses section at the end or a miscellany mentioning the other uses of the term. At present the heading is appropriate for this song IMO. If you feel that there are other Sanskrit slokas that deserve to be mentioned, then what you can do is write the separate article clearly showing that the name designated to the sloka is Vande Mataram and that it is notable enough to warrant inclusion in wikipedia per established guidelines. One this is done, a main disambiguation page can link to the various Vande Mataram songs. In the absence of that, I see that just changing the name would make it confusing for the end-user. --Antorjal 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page seems exceedingly prone to vandalism today. Have had to do a few reverts already. --Antorjal 21:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Some Muslims do bow

Terry-ho please note that many Bengali Muslims do bow and even touch the feet of their parents and in-laws per [12] and this is not considered haram. Please don't change the text to reflect that ALL Muslims find it haram as this is POV. Thanks. --Antorjal 15:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The references given to "support" some of the statements made in the section do not verify was is written (although the Bengali bowing part was ok). I will attempt to rewrite the section in a more factually correct way, since the text seems to have been written from an opinion instead of actual sources. Thanks. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 01:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Job

The page is looking nice. Good job to all of you.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration (again)

There seems to have been many requests for transliteration. I shall try working on the transliteration of a portion of the Devanagari, but my work will probably be limited, due to lack of free time and not enough knowledge on the type of language used in VM. Thanks. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 01:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have gotten the version adopted by Congress transliterated:

vande mātaram
sujalām suphalām malayajaśītalām
śasya śyāmalām mātaram
śubhra jyotsna pulakita yāmalīm
phulla kusumita drumadalaśobhinīm
suhāsinīm sumadhura bhāṣiṇīm
sukhadām varadām mātaram "

Should this version go up, or should there also be a Bangla version? Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 02:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. If we also included the Bengali Romanization next to it, it would look like this. Does this look good to others?

In Devanagari script वन्दे मातरम् सुजलां सुफलां मलयजशीतलाम् शस्य श्यामलां मातरम् | शुभ्र ज्योत्स्न पुलकित यामिनीम् फुल्ल कुसुमित द्रुमदलशोभिनीम्, सुहासिनीं सुमधुर भाषिणीम् सुखदां वरदां मातरम् ||		In Bengali script বন্দে মাতরম্ সুজলাং সুফলাং মলযজশীতলাম্ শস্য শ্যামলাং মাতরম্ | শুভ্র জ্যোত্স্ন পুলকিত যামিনীম্ ফুল্ল কুসুমিত দ্রুমদলশোভিনীম্, সুহাসিনীং সুমধুর ভাষিণীম্ সুখদাং বরদাং মাতরম্ ||
Devanagari transliteration vande mātaram sujalām suphalām malayajaśītalām śasya śyāmalām mātaram śubhra jyotsna pulakita yāmalīm phulla kusumita drumadalaśobhinīm suhāsinīm sumadhura bhāṣiṇīm sukhadām varadām mātaram		Bengali Romanization bônde matorom shujolang shufolang môloeôjoshitolam shoshsho shêmolang matorom shubhro josno pulokito jamolim fullo kushumito drumodôloshobhinim shuhashining shumodhuro bhashinim shukhodang bôrodang matorom

--SameerKhan 22:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. I'm liking the look.Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's really good. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 23:16, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Two hindi versions

There seem to be two hindi versions of the same article, one with the link on this site and the other one [13]. They seem to have the same title, so I'm baffled at why they are different. But there seems to be a slight difference in the nagari Vande Mataram on this page and on the one here. It's mostly minor, like spacing etc. But which version is more correct? Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 15:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Differences in the Devanagari and Bengali

The Devanagari and Bengali texts of the "full version given in Anandamath" don't agree with each other. The first two lines of the second verse in the Devanagari version begin "sapta koti" and "dvisapta koti". The Bengali version begins "koti koti" in each case. If I remember correctly, the original had "sapta koti" and "dvisapta koti" because the "mataram" in the song was originally Bengal, not India. Could someone please check this and change the text accordingly? -- Arvind 20:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing this. What does dvisapta koti mean? (27?) Also, what's the significance of Saptha (7) koti (crore)? I am a bit confused here ... the population of Bengal was never near 7 crore in the 1860s or 1880s. But in any case, this should be checked from the original Bengali text of Anandamath. If someone has a copy, please check that. By the way, in Bangla, "Koti Koti", i.e. repeatation of a word signifies plural, i.e. what would be written as "Crores" in English is expressed by the duplication of the word "Koti". --Ragib 20:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Dvisapta koti is a Sanskritism for 2 times sapta koti, i.e. 140 million. The idea was probably that 70 million voices would correspond to 140 million hands. On the number, I've heard that he included the chunks of Bihar and Orissa that were part of historic Bengal which, together, gave a population of 70 million. I should also point out that not everyone agrees that Bankim Chandra originally only meant Bengal - many argue that he meant all of India, and "sapta koti" refers to that portion of the population that was capable of bearing arms. Anyway, fascinating as this topic is, it is really a side issue - what's really important is checking whether the original text said "koti koti" or "sapta koti"/"dvisapta koti" (or, as this article suggests, "trisapta koti"). For the moment, could we settle on one or the other, just so we don't have the two scripts having different readings? -- Arvind 22:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Vande ???

Dear Bharatveer, I believe that the correct way to write Vande in Devanagari would be वंदे and not वन्दे as per your latest edits. What do you say about it ? --APandey 11:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No.That is an incorrect usage.-Regards-Bharatveer 13:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I believe Bharatveer is correct. --Antorjal 15:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Apandey's na is closer to n than na.Bakaman _Bakatalk 22:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Language

I may be unintentionally asking for another huge argument to set off... but I was curious:

So instead of writing "The song was composed by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee in a Sanskritized form of Sadhubhasa Bengali", which is a little confusing sounding to the layreader, can we write something more like "The song was composed by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee in a hybrid/combination/mix/etc. of Bengali and Sanskrit". I'm saying this because much of the song, and especially the stanza that everyone knows as India's national song, is not Bengali. The first part is totally Sanskrit (although written in Bengali script, as Sanskrit is done in much of eastern India and Bangladesh), and other parts are totally Bengali. I think it would be appropriate to make this clear to the reader. I really hope this doesn't become a huge debate though... --SameerKhan 06:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources which says vande mataram is a "hybrid mix" of bengali & sanksrit;you can do that.But if its your OR , then I think it will not be right to make that edit.-Bharatveer 07:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. I don't know if I can find a source that explicitly says this, so let's just keep things the way they are for now. --SameerKhan 07:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, why "shadhubhasha" at all? When we write articles abt Bengali literature before 1920, do we go "shadhubhasha" all the time? "Rabindranath Tagore was a Bengali author, no no, he was actually a sanskrtized Bengali shadhubhasha author until 1915", "Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar wrote his declaration of women's rights in Shadhubhasha Bengali", totally ridiculous. That sentence serves nothing but maximum obfuscation at this point.--ppm 17:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

And talking about references (why they are needed to detect which language this song was written in is beyond me), ironically this is what the reference provided now has to say abt it: "and the song comprised of a mixture of Bengali and Sanskrit words."--ppm 17:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see that that is what the reference says! Fantastic. I'll make that change... and I do agree about Shadhubhasha - it's really not necessary to say a Bengali piece of literature is in Shadhubhasha when it was written at a time when Shadhubhasha was the only way to write Bengali. --SameerKhan 22:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Why lyrics removed?

The entire lyrics; that in Sanskrit,Bengali and English have been removed by User:Dbachmann. IMHO, they deserve to be present in the article. Same with Miscellany section. Therefore i would like to reinstate the same unless my claim is contested. Thanks Arjun (talk) 13:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

because the full text of song lyrics does not belong in the article, it belongs on wikisource (a project created for exactly such purposes), see wikisource:Vande Mataram (page also needs cleanup).

See Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources and WP:NOT#LYRICS.

--dab (𒁳) 13:23, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOT#LYRICS says

Quotes from an out-of-copyright song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article.

it doesnt ask to ditch the lyrics altogether; and i donot advocate the inclusion of full song; but one or 2 verses. Arjun (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

well, we can of course quote notable portions if we can put it in a context of the article body. We just shouldn't quote the lyrics on their own, in a standalone section.

Btw I figure there are also copyright concerns, Aurobindo's translation dates to 1909, and Aurobindo died in 1950, so this is not a text qualifying for {{PD-old}}. But I think the text should be free of copyright in the US. The original Bengali/Sanskrit text is of course in the PD. --dab (𒁳) 16:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Please check out the two pages on wikisource I have found. Aurobindo Ghose. Vande Mataram  – via Wikisource. Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay. वन्दे मातरम्  (in oldwikisource) – via Wikisource.{{citation}}: CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) The article had not even been aware of their existence. If you want to improve coverage on the song, please consider helping improve these Wikisource pages. --dab (𒁳) 17:21, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Lyrics in collapsible box

First of all I would like to congratulate Dbachmann for re-writing major portions of the article. I mostly agree to the rationale he has provided for the removal of lyrics. However after going through many other articles on national anthems/songs on wikipedia; it looks like a common practise abd style to present the lyrics. So I have re-inserted the translation and transliterations in the article, albeit in a collapsible box. What say? --59.182.107.187 (talk) 17:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

can you explain why you would want to do that? The lyrics are a single click away, over at wikisource. If you find other articles that provide full citation of song lyrics, please help Wikipedia by moving those to wikisource. --dab (𒁳) 19:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah you are right. I removed the whole collapsible box and translation. Only the first stanza (national song) is now on the page. --59.182.7.103 (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

well, I can see how it may make sense to quote the two first verses, but giving Devanagari and Bengali scripts is over the top. It adds no information to the IAST. --dab (𒁳) 09:48, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

now that we showcase these two verses, it would make sense to provide a literal translation. Aurobindo's translation is singable, I assume, but it is also rather free. --dab (𒁳) 12:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Many of the words are participles or have a participial sense, so as a rule both -ed and -ing work; pick one or the other according to basic meaning as adjective or verb respectively (the 'ṃ' ending is just a grammatical inflection):

• vande: Hail!
• sujalā: good-water(ed)
• suphalā: good-fruit(ed)
• malayaja śītalā: sandaltree-cool(ed) => well-shaded
• śasya śyāmalā: crops green => green-cropped
• śubhra jyotsnā: bright moonlight
• pulakita: bristled hair => thrilled
• yāminī: night
• phulla kusumita: open flowered
• drumadala: tree-leaf
• shobhinī: bright, beautiful
• suhāsinī: good-smiling
• sumadhura bhāṣinī: good-honey-like speaking => well-spoken
• sukhadā: happiness-bestowing
• varadā: boon-bestowing

(Check here or here.) A literal translation doesn't work too well because English is poor with elaborate compound adjectives. rudra (talk) 18:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

thanks. The question is, can we cite a more literal translation than Aurobindo's that was published anywhere. In any case, this poem would seem to be a perfect candidate for translation into Quenya. --dab (𒁳) 20:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Two translations of Vande Mataram by Shri Aurobindo

Well, according to the Government of India, Aurobindo himself had another translation! The 20 sec clip on this page is useless, the full version (1.1 MB, 69 seconds) is here. This is the version played on All India Radio. Curiously enough, the raga for this tune is named deś, which literally means "land" or "country"!:-) rudra (talk) 21:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This article in Outlook magazine has useful information: the full source of one of Aurobindo's translations with, mirabile dictu, a cited source. And a rendering in Urdu, helpfully transliterated:-). rudra (talk) 13:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

VM in the same raga (Desh), performed by Bhimsen Joshi. (From another page of the same issue of Outlook - it seems the entire issue was on VM.) rudra (talk) 14:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

-> Yes, you are right. I had noticed the difference between the two translations by Shri Aurobindo long ago. Let me point out to you the difference between the two translations-
(i) Presented in the wikisource article is Shri Aurobido's translation in poetic form with rhyme kept in mind, so that its eloquence can be enjoyed by the readers of English language too.
(ii) The second translation which you have cited in Outlook is Shri Aurobindo's translation in prose form which is just a summary of Vande Mataram for those seeking to understand its meaning only. The government of India portal also has adopted this translation for the sake of simplicity.
SASSOTO (talk) 03:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Vande Mataram in BBC World Service Top Ten was not A.R. Rahman's version

In this article the following is mentioned:

>>> In 2002, BBC World Service conducted an international poll to choose ten most famous songs of all time. Around 7000 songs were selected from all over the world. Vande Mataram, in a version by A. R. Rahman, was second in top 10 songs.[6] <<<

I remember very well that it was the same song from the 1952 Hindi movie Anand Math which ranked second in the 2002 International Poll by BBC World Service and not the version of A.R. Rahman (which was not even in the running). The reference link to BBC World Service http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/us/features/topten/profiles/index.shtml still maintains the correct result.

The Hindi movie Anand Math was based on "Anandmath" written by Bankim Chandra Chattopadhya. I cannot recollect whether it was the song sung by Lata Mangeskar or the one sung by Hemant Kumar in the same movie which was in the BBC World Service Top Ten poll. But this site http://abhisays.com/music-and-songs/bbc-world-top-ten-songs.html indicates it was Mangeskar's.

கா. சேது (talk) 06:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC) K. Sethu

Added Infobox to the article

I have added infobox containing Bankim Chandra's image and the enclosed the media in it too. I think you will agree that it has improved the presentation. SASSOTO (talk) 10:32, 31 July 2011 (UTC)