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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 82.16.221.138 (talk) at 00:40, 9 August 2011 (→Article name should be changed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

29-year-old father-of-four?

How about Gangster and drug dealer who shot at the cop first and then was shot? 50.9.109.170 (talk) 10:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read if there was any drug related issues, only that this was part of Operation Trident (Metropolitan_Police). The 'father of four' seems to be an emotive insertion to garner sympathy for Duggan. The initial reports indicated he shot first and was subsequently killed, which would reduce somewhat the sympathy factor. I'd recommend simply stating his name, and age. At present this isn't anything to do with 'discrimination' so I'm not sure why the talk pages say this is linked to WikiProject Discrimination? I've seen images showing looters who were of different races and does the fact this man was black have anything to do with him being shot? I think the link to the discrimination project isn't warranted and is merely a parallel to the Broadwater farm riots. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 10:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Duggan, who had previously been sent to prison, was carrying a gun, which has been recovered from the scene. He was not shot because he was black, nor because he was an irresponsible, over breeding deadbeat dad. No-one is shot because of the number of children they have, it is merely being used in an emotive way by his supporters / admirers; 'father-of-four' is irrelevant to the case. 188.28.77.247 (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Latest news suggests that initial police ballistic tests have shown that the bullet that lodged in the police radio (supposedly shot by Duggan) was police-issue. Therefore he didn't shoot a policeman, something that corresponds with accounts from people who knew him best. Don't make assumptions and get dragged into debate - this is an encyclopaedia. The fact is he was 29 and he was a father of 4. I bet there wasn't this debate around Ian Tomlinson's page at the start. Tommer312 (talk) 09:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Duggan was carrying a gun, something that law-abiding civilians do not usually do. To define Duggan primarily as a family man and a father-of-four is ridiculous - he did not live with any of his children. 188.28.113.53 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See point 12 in this discussion page regarding the hollow point bullet. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 15:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Multi-ethnic nature of incident"

The current article states: "The incident is being investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission due to the multi-ethnic nature of the incident" I'm sorry, but that is utter garbage. All incidents involving police use of firearms are investigated. --86.136.203.178 (talk) 10:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pointless

Cant see the point of an article of a current event which is unfolding by the minute, and where so much is still unclear, rumour or supposition.Unraed (talk) 12:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We managed to cover the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attacks as they were ongoing.©Geni 12:30, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But what is the point? If you want to know the latest on what is happening in such an event the news media or Google News give you all that. What is the point in s selective, sporadic re-posting of bits and pieces of news or supposition or rumour on Wiki, often by people with some bias or other but whose truthfulness or objectivity is completely impossible to judge? I cannot see how this adds value and it differs from the rest of Wiki where one person's expert knowledge can help illuminate an issue for others without that knowledge. How is my understanding of what is happening in Tottenham right now helped by someone I do not know cutting and pasting bits from Google News that appeal to their prejudices? Unraed (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not cutting and pasting, I created this article just as I was watching it from Sky News. Jaguar (talk) 13:07, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You will never stop live Wikipedia reporting on unfolding events. Either sit back and enjoy the ride and stop reading until the dust settles. WWGB (talk) 13:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just my 2 cents... Wikipedia seems to be the BEST source for events as they unfold. I just saw the headlines, dug through a half dozen AP stories, and was severely dissapointed with the lack of detail. I never gave it much thought, but a news story is written in a substantially different manner than an encyclopedia entry. I found this entry to be very well written and organised - much better than the "news"
Because that is how Wiki is at its very best. As above, the Mumbai bombings were reported "as live" on Wikipedia, with the article cited as one of the best news gathering events outside a newsroom. CNN spoke highly of what editors here achieved. In only a few hours, Wikipedia editors have collated news and opinion in English and five other languages, so you don't have to trawl the news sites if you don't want to. "Pointless" ? Only if you misunderstand the project as a whole. This is Wikipedia at its very best. doktorb wordsdeeds 13:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I think Wikipedia generally does a very good job of reporting these kinds of events. There are two advantages for the reader over other news outlets. First all the useful information is gathered in one place, so you don't need to spend time trawling round different news sites trying to find the facts. Second, useless information is usually filtered out - opinons, conjectures and speculations are usually edited out pretty quickly. A good example would be the recent death of Amy Winehouse. There was all kind of sensationalism and speculation as to the cause of death based on no evidence. The Wikipedia article simply stated that the cause of death was as yet unknown and gave a couple of citations. Having said all that - I think Wikipedia's superiority for news events is a result of the awfully poor quality of the output of most major news organisations rather than a result of how great Wikipedia is. Samsite (talk) 14:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Afd tagged

Ken Livingstone's statement

Can be found here:

http://www.labourlist.org/ken-livingstone-statement-on-tottenham-riots

I red it.82.14.54.17 (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pluralised riot in title

Just the one riot has taken place. Suggest a move to "2011 Tottenham riot". --TBM10 (talk) 13:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tottenham AND Wood Green. WWGB (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So, "North London riots" then? --TBM10 (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. that's cool.82.14.54.17 (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
names already been updated again to '2011 London riots' after major incidents on the southern outskirts, and there have since been related incidents outside the London area... let's just hope the name doesn't need changing again... 77.101.91.203 (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background

How about adding something like the following to the Background section?

History

This unrest played out against a larger background of fraught relations between the police and the black community.[1] Commentators have especially drawn parallels to the Broadwater Farm riot of 1985.[2]

ARK (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay -- I've added this to the article as Causes ARK (talk) 18:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea.86.24.10.103 (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please edit my reference

Hi, On item six in the sources you list the source as Sky News. This is wrong. it is in fact my blog at www.spiderplantland.co.uk - could this be changed? Sorry I am not enough of an expert to know how! Thanks

Hi -- Wikipedia has a number of community guidelines to ensure that articles meet certain quality standards. One of those guidelines is Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, which more or less rules out blog posts as sources. Ironically, I think, your blog post has remained in the article because is was misidentified as Sky News. Please expect the reference to your blog to be substituted with a reference to a source that is uncontroversially 'reliable'. Best, ARK (talk) 17:42, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something definitely wrong with Wikipedia...events need a few days

Shouldn't a few days pass, maybe even a week before an article is started or fully underway before. Wikipedia isnt, or should be a current news reporting website. Its what it says in its name...an encyclopedia.....but hey, person who start it need to race to be first to add to their cred, get em on that CV/ resume...hey and a wikipedia writing medal for roughing it in the battlefield.69.196.135.42 (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's no minimum amount of time that needs to elapse after an event in order for an article to be created about it. If reliable sources report it and it is notable, we can write an article about it. Jim Michael (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no minimum time for an article to start. A discussion was held to delete this article (see the very top) and it was voted upon to Keep. Your sarcasm adds nothing to anything doktorb wordsdeeds 19:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know this isn't encyclopaedic and in keeping with the general vision of Wikipedia - but I live in London, my partner works in one area and I in another, I need to know what's happening and this article is currently functioning as a user-updated rolling source of updates relevant to the area I live in, and is the best source of these updates as news networks are providing more general coverage. So right now, this article is serving a purpose. Even it's not Wikipedia's purpose. Write an article about it when it's over, but some people are relying on this source right now. What would actually be achieved by deleting it? Nothing but snobbery.

References

  1. ^ Millward, David (7 August 2011). "Tottenham riot rekindles memories of unrest in the 1980s". The Telegraph. Retrieved 7 August 2011.
  2. ^ "Tottenham anarchy: Grim echo of 1985 Broadwater farm riot". Mail Online. 7 August 2011. Retrieved 7 August 2011.

--86.24.10.103 (talk) 19:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

In the Casualties section of the infobox, it says 68 deaths in total!! 68 deaths? In a riot in England? I don't believe it. Are you sure this is correct? GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 19:31, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"A person suffering from injuries or who has been killed due to an accident or through an act of violence". [1] This clearly means 'injured'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It says 68 casualties, not deaths. As far as we know, no-one has died during the riots. Jim Michael (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move: Discussion

I don't propose this officially, but would like opinions on moving this article to "2011 North London riots" or "2011 North London unrest", with developing stories and expanded news coverage now shifting from the initial Saturday events. Any opinions or views? I can see why - as it's now not just within the London Borough of Tottenham, why editors may wish to move this somewhere else. doktorb wordsdeeds 19:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tottenham is not a London Borough, it's part of Haringey, which also contains Wood Green. Enfield Town, however, is not even on the border of the Borough of Enfield with Haringey, it's quite some distance away, and is in fact five miles from the Tottenham epicentre. Clearly the current page name is too restrictive, and does not reflect the geography of the eventsNick Cooper (talk) 21:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The current title needs to be changed as the riots have extended to Wood Green and Enfield. Have there been any other riots in London this year? If not, move to 2011 London riots. No need for North if there is no need to distinguish between these riots and any others in London this year. Jim Michael (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Though the riots started in Tottenham, they have now spread to Wood Green and Enfield. The title is becoming progressively less appropriate. However, it is helpful to readers for the title to define the scope. 2011 London riots is too imprecise. I therefore support a page move to 2011 North London riots. Bridgeplayer (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for the name to settle of its own accord in the public discourse, then adjust accordingly. ARK (talk) 22:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"North London riots" is also imprecise, given that violent disorder has now also been reported in the south and the east of London. Keristrasza (talk) 08:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed; it is now. The BBC news is headlining all its reports as "London Riots". This is now reflected in the following RS: [2][3][4][5]. We should now move the page to 2011 London riots. Bridgeplayer (talk) 13:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this could be moved to '2011 London riots'. Current bets are on Croydon being hit, so maybe '2011 Greater London riots' --Canhazanonymous (talk) 15:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bullet in radio was 'police issue'?

The Guardian is reporting [6] that initial tests on the bullet found lodged in a police radio was a police-issue dum-dum type, and not fired by the shooting victim, as claimed. This doesn't of course prove that he didn't have a weapon, but it is worth noting. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:15, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be based on nothing more than the bullet being a hollow point, and the fact that the police use hollow points. Civilians aren't supposed to have access to hollow points, but then they're not supposed to have access to handgiuns, either, so there seems to be some spectacular conclusion leaping going on.... Nick Cooper (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
most of the limitations on hollow points are on millitary use. I understand they are fairly popular for certian civilian aplications in the US. However if we assume that the guardian are not completely incompetent then other factors such as caliber will also match. Yes it's possible that someone else happened to have the same bullets as the police but ultimately its not our call. The guardian is running this on their front page tomorrow thus at some point we will have to mention it.©Geni 22:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As the wording is "dum dum type hollowed out bullets" .. we don't have to 'assume' the Guardian reporters are completely incompetent. Nevard (talk) 19:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

24 hour clock

I think that we should consistently use the 24 hour clock so 7.05 pm becomes 19:05. Bridgeplayer (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, also use British English, not just for colour and flavour, but also because of this WP:TIES.--Cerejota (talk) 01:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Peasants

Thank you to whoever changed, "A series of disturbances by peasants in Tottenham followed the protest march on 6 August" to "A series of disturbances by people in Tottenham followed the protest march on 6 August." Whoever was responsible for the "peasants" remark is not fit to be contributing to Wikipedia, or to pass any comment on anything. Findlay777 (talk) 23:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid the article is high enough profile to be the target of vandalism.©Geni 23:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting peasants aren't people? ;) But seriously, not cool --Canhazanonymous (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Both words could be retained if the phrase "disturbances by people, possibly peasants" was used.

See Peasant: "A peasant is an agricultural worker who generally works land owned or rented by/from a noble." Peasants in Tottenham, Hackney, Peckham? I wasn't aware that it's all farmland round there. "The Peasants". Stanley Oliver (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to 2011 London riots. I think everyone supports this though some people asked for a postponement - no real reason for waiting as it can be moved again if, unlikely, it is commonly referred to as something else. Almost all news agencies are using this name now. violet/riga [talk] 17:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2011 Tottenham riots → 2011 London riots – Riots now extend far beyond tottenham, with extensive looting and damage in Brixton, South London, as well as a 7 mile area of North London. AndrewTindall (talk) 01:28, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This Sky News report certainly suggests disturbances in several areas of London, mostly apparently looting of shops. However, at the moment, the WP:RS are still calling it the "Tottenham riots". When they change their usage, so should we. Until then, the article should keep the same name. -- The Anome (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Anome (or at least, what the above post said before I was edit conflicted). The fact that they began with the shooting in Tottenham may well lead to them being remembered as the Tottenham riots, despite taking place in places from Enfield to Brixton. If it ever is renamed, "riots" should remain lower case. —WFC— TFL notices 01:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It should definitely be moved, this source clearly states the riots are across a large section of London http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14439970 12bigbrother12 (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BBC calling it "London riot" on news front page... Hyper3 (talk) 06:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move to 2011 London riots. This is no longer confined to Tottenham. Many RS now reflecting the spread of the disorder to south and east London as well as other parts of the north. Graun reads: "London riots spread south of Thames" and points to the rioting in Brixton, Enfield, Islington and Walthamstow. The Torygraph also reads: "London riots: live" and goes on: "This is our live coverage of the riots and disturbances in London, which on Sunday night brought looting and disruption to large areas of the capital." Channel 4 news go with "London riots spread." BBC: Met Police on London riots." USA Today: "Police arrest more than 160 in London riots." etc etc. Keristrasza (talk) 08:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2011 I'm so Cockney I'm riddled with it riots? Lugnuts (talk) 07:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Riots" should definitely be lower-case, as it is not a proper noun. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
2011 London riots I've just seen stuff on Brixton as I logged on. I thin Enfield was hit again.Wipsenade (talk) 09:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Playing devil's advocate, but the only riots have taken place in Tottenham. The rest has just been looting and theft. How about 2011 London looting?! Brad78 (talk) 10:08, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Policing operation across London

Police press release on tonight's activities - http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur08/page01.htm - gives a nice breakdown of the different areas affected. Nanonic (talk) 02:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this is a blog (not an RS) of the activities tonight. Might be useful as a launching point to search for RS. Nanonic (talk) 03:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

East London

Why is there no mention of Walthamstow, Leyton & Strafrord being raided? The rioters did some considerable damage to those areas too--82.10.203.103 (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then add this to the article yourself. You will need to supply cites to reliable sources to back up your assertions -- see the article for the standard format for these cites. -- The Anome (talk) 02:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've not heard any mention of anything kicking off in Stratford or Leyton and I've been keeping half an eye on the news in case it decides to spread to other areas of Walthamstow.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Walthamstow [[11]] was added an hour ago. :-}82.2.72.189 (talk) 11:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

At what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots? The Argos in Dalston (part of the Borough of Hackney) was raided last night. Should this be mentioned? --62.49.203.34 (talk) 11:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know at what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots, but untill this is sorted it is best to add all lootings and attacks on shops, police, press and goverment/corporate property. Yes, you can add about the The Argos in Dalston.82.2.72.189 (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dalston is in.82.27.25.189 (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Riot dates

"6 August - 7 August" - There is no way of knowing the rioting will end on 7 August, I propose we change "7 August" to "Present" until riots end.

Black man

"The disturbances were preceded by the fatal shooting of 29-year-old black man Mark Duggan by police..." why does the colour of his skin need to be mentioned? Is there an undisputed endemic race problem amongst police? By this token every time a "white" man is mentioned the term must be used as well. The white Old Etonian Lord Mayor for instance. If it says "by a white policeman" there would be some undertones of an entrenced battle between black and white. There still appears to be the thinking that "black people" are downtrodden and always the victims of injustice.

Most of the rioters are black criminals who are reacting to the death of Duggan, also a black criminal, or using it as an excuse to riot. If the police had instead shot a white criminal, it is highly unlikely that it would have been followed by riots. Perhaps that makes it relevant to the article. 188.28.77.247 (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's no evidence to suggest Duggan or the rioters were criminals. Let's wait until the facts are established and verified.
There is a history of racial tension, especially with the police, in the area so it is relevant. Also, when people (especially non-Britons) read about a Londoner I think they'd tend to assume he's white at first, so there's of course no need to describe others as "white". Considering the racial undertones in the actual case of Mark Duggan's shooting I think it should stay. Also, just FYI, you are aware that the Lord Mayor is not an Old Etonian - Boris Johnson is the Mayor of London, not the Lord Mayor of London. Tommer312 (talk) 09:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd think that the fact of the rioters torching vehicles and buildings and looting shops probably qualifies them as criminals.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We are not the ones who should be making suggestions of racial trouble and should only mention it if there are reputable sources that are making the link. As it stands identifying him as a "black man" infers that this is an issue. violet/riga [talk] 11:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realise there were two separate entities Mayor of London and Lord Mayor of London, for my information, that's really helpful, good to know that always confused me when Ken's name came up as Lord Mayor. Boris Johnson is a white man and a white Old Etonian, foreign people assume that people from London are white, you have to be joking! The rioters are "black criminals" are these worse than "white criminals" could ever be?

I don't know of any case of a riot after police shot a white person. There have been many cases of riots after police shot black people. I think that makes Duggan's race relevant to the article and the reader's understanding of the course of events. 188.28.113.53 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, but it's not our interpretation that is important - we need a comment about this from a reliable source. violet/riga [talk] 14:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you know many things but to say you don't know of any riot started after police shot a white man demonstrates a lack of life experience, because you don't know of anything does not mean it doesn't exist. Riots are not exclusively caused by police shooting "black" or "white" men. Look up the Wikipedia article on riots to see their causes.

It's always odd to see people use phrases like "Most of the rioters are black criminals". Did you take a census? Were you there? Having seen several pictures taken from the trouble spots I've seen black and white predominately young looking men. I think it would be fair to categorize most of the rioters and looters as 'youths' but to pin a race on them would be difficult at best. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Duggan

BLP policies don't apply to dead people. We have plenty of Death of... articles, so could follow that format as a biography is not appropriate. --Pontificalibus (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The 1E part of BLP can effectively apply whether living or dead (think about whether Duggan would have passed BLP1E if he'd only been shot and injured - answer - no). Note also WP:BDP, given that we have very little reliable info at this moment. I think the current redirect from Mark Duggan to here is a good idea and should cover all bases for the time being. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's mention of this article as a dab at the top of that page - that should suffice. violet/riga [talk] 11:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't look here before, but I just boldly redirected Mark Duggan here, moving a footballer of the same name to a different article. Yesterday that article had a massive spike in hits, obviously as people were wanting to find out information about him. FWIW, I think that there should probably be a Death of Mark Duggan article at some point. Sorry my connection died just as I was about to post... SmartSE (talk) 14:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there is significantly more information/controversy awaiting us about Duggan I really doubt that a separate article will be required. violet/riga [talk] 14:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Organising

There are lots of sources online now for the Blackberry Messenger broadcasts that were sent over the last few days to organise people in certain areas including http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-61 . Nanonic (talk) 13:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

UKBlackberry have just tweeted "We feel for those impacted by the riots in London. We have engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can." - covered in the Guardian live feed above. Nanonic (talk) 14:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is getting more ridiculous by the minute

In the lede, we read that having 'kicked off' (hardly an encyclopaedic term) in Tottenham, the riots have spread as far as Croydon. So what happened in Croydon? Somebody smashed some school windows, and there were 3 incidents involving thefts from cars. Without casting aspersions on Croydon, I have to suggest that this not only doesn't sound much like a riot, but that it doesn't sound that atypical for the area on any other day. I'll delete the Croydon non-riot from the article, and ask that people try to be a little less keen on hyping up minor events. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, 'kicked off' is not an encyclopaedic term.86.16.0.158 (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is - what next - someone asking Boris Johnson to go there and say "look here you chaps it's hardly fair is it all this rioting, go home and have a jolly good rest."

What about the protests in London this is the closest article that comes up about the demonstrations in England and it's about Tottenham. WTF is going on... Every news network in the world reports there are problems in London, even the British media do:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/08/501364/main20089369.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8689076/London-riots-Twitter-users-face-arrest-for-inciting-looters.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-met-promises-more-police-streets
http://www.heralddeparis.com/london-violence-needless-opportunistic-theft/143750
And here are some Tottenham sources:
http://techland.time.com/2011/08/08/tottenham-protesters-used-twitter-blackberry-messenger-to-mobilize-riots/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-riots-destroyed-more-just-buildings
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2023596/Tottenham-riot-Why-shouldnt-David-Cameron-ask-Bill-Bratton-run-Met.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3739222/Dad-Stephen-Seeman-Tottenham-riot-mob-tried-to-torch-car-with-baby-inside.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News
I have to agree that this article is ridiculous, but for entirely different reasons, because it seams to downplay the events rather than containing an accurate description of them (WP:SPADE).--87.202.64.218 (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Misrepresenting sources, as was done with Croydon, isn't an 'accurate description' of anything. Yes, there are ongoing disturbances, but we need to report them properly, not invent them where they haven't occurred. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
However, there is serious trouble in Croydon - [12]. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - but the source being cited was for events over the weekend - and I can't be held accountable for deleting stuff that hadn't happened at the time I did it ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BBC headline, "London riots: Croydon 'is a war zone'". Doesn't look like a teddy bears' picnic to me. Ericoides (talk) 21:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the good citizens of Croydon were upset by AndyTheGrump's comment - "minor events" - and decided to have it large. Stanley Oliver (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary bullet tests

Earlier today I added the word "allegedly" to this part of the article, since the only proof at the moment that the bullet was police-issue is an informal, unreliable article from the Guardian based on word-of-mouth. I am readding the word allegedly; please do not remove this until other sources appear to confirm it. The results should be available tomorrow, so wait 'til then. Regards, --—Cyclonenim | Chat  16:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The guardian is one of the UK's more reliable newspapers and ran the article on its front page with 4 reporter by-lines. That would be one heck of a risk to take if they weren't pretty darn sure. Still your avoidance of the electric fence is noted.©Geni 18:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not an encyclopaedia's role to be one of the first to post a story, it is our job to provide accurate and validated information. Newspapers make their profits off risks, the bigger the risk the bigger the sales. This information could change the whole swing of the situation so it's important to get it right. Until either other sources confirm what the Guardian have said, or until the ballistic tests are confirmed later today, it is important to regard the information as fiction until proen a fact. I, personally, find it very hard to believe, especially given the lack of evidence, so it's important to confirm it before we publish it. Regards, --—Cyclonenim | Chat  23:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not just the shooting?

Is there more to this than just the shooting? The influence of "high unemployment and cuts in public services" [13][14] has been in and out of the article a few times now. Any other reliable commentary about this? violet/riga [talk] 18:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions, especially fringe opinions, should not be presented as facts. We should wait for the results of the inevitable inquiry before attempting to state what the "causes" are. Sure we can discuss subjective opinions in the article, but they should be presented as just that - as personal opinions, and equal airing given to all notable opinions. FactController (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To meet NPOV we shouldn't be asserting the only reason as being the shooting if that is not the case. The first link is The Vancouver Sun which should be a reliable source said this:
Anger at high unemployment and cuts in public services, coupled with resentment of the police, contributed to an explosion of violence and looting in a deprived London neighbourhood, residents said on Sunday.
Now that is simply getting it from what residents say, but it's still getting towards some level of reliability. violet/riga [talk] 19:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This has been put back in the infobox and has two further sources. It should be in the lead but I don't want to be having an edit war. violet/riga [talk] 19:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can I add that I am not entirely supportive of this explanation given the timeline of events, but it may have been a driving force behind why things escalated. Importantly it is being reported in these four sources as a factor so that is why I think it should be included. violet/riga [talk] 19:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An opinion nevertheless, so should be presented as such, and if presented should be in context and should be balanced with others. Are the four sources reliable? I agree too that we shouldn't be asserting that the shooting was a "cause" either. FactController (talk) 19:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Birmingham riots?

Tonight the riots have spread to Birmingham [15], and the connection to the London riots seems pretty clear. Could the scope of this article be expanded to cover these riots too? JordanH1400 (talk) 19:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You would have to say that it's more than just a coincidence but until reputable sources start making the link we will need to leave it out. It might be worth mentioning as a side note later on assuming (and hoping) that this is a one-off minor incident. violet/riga [talk] 19:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that using the source cited to claim that there were 'riots' in Birmingham might be stretching things in any case. Disorder maybe, but no riot. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There has also been violence in Croydon and Leeds as well as Birmingham. This is no longer just London. The page name should be changed to England or UK 2011 riots.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Minor offshoots at most. If anything further develops then we can consider moving it. violet/riga [talk] 19:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I'm aware, Croydon is still in London, or have the looters run off with the whole town? ;-) More to the point, until reliable sources suggest that there is rioting going on elsewhere, we should leave the title as is. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Croydon is part of the Greater London Area

Yes sorry about saying Croydon but there are confirmed reports from numerous news sources about Leeds and Birmingham. Infact the rather famous Bullring shopping centre has been broken into.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The BBC and Sky are reporting unrest in Liverpool.

Race riots in the United Kingdom category

Category:Race riots in the United Kingdom should not be included in this article. There is no mention whatsoever of anything to do with racism or race-related trouble at any point in the text. Until this is included and properly sourced it cannot be in this category. violet/riga [talk] 19:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree.--A bit iffy (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article title - confusion

I think this title might confuse some into thinking it's related to or is about the riots earlier in the year regarding university fees. Since it's a completely different issue, it might be worth changing the name. --Kurr 21:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See 2010 UK student protests - that was last year. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You might be thinking of the 2011 anti-cuts protest in London. --TBM10 (talk) 21:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Misinformation, rumours and terrible editing

I've given up trying to control and improve this article. It is in danger of being completely over-run with misinformation and rumours, all added using poor MoS and with total disregard to notability. The comment in the Lead Paragraph about a Primark shop in Ilford being set on fire is a classic example. This article needs to be protected so that only registered users can edit it! --TBM10 (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree, generally poor editing. But the poor editing is generally getting fixed. At the moment, in my opinion, there isn't such a serious problem that requires a lockdown.--A bit iffy (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ilford info is correct, however no cameras or news footage has really reviewed Ilford yet - however remove for the time being— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.42.58 (talk • contribs)

Also, where the article states:

Barnet: Sporadic night time riots in Barnet.[58] Streatham: Sporadic night time riots in Streatham.[58] Clapham: Sporadic night time riots in Clapham.[58] Islington: Sporadic night time riots in Islington.[58]

There is no evidence or report of this. Simply talking up the problem.

Yup, not in the source - I've removed them AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fires and looting in the places listed above - and many more. Handy map of confirmed riot locations: "Google Maps - London riots / UK riots: verified areas". Stanley Oliver (talk) 23:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that qualifies as WP:RS - it is entirely unclear where it is sourced from. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Social Networkings role

Not much at all on facebook/twitters/blackberries role in this in terms of word of mouth.

Facebook support group for the Met http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Supporting-the-Met-Police-against-the-London-rioters/152937041453243 I think this deserves a mention to definately raise awareness.

Number of members needs to be amended on a continuous basis

Looters showing the 'spoils of war' on social networking sites (assuming this is a genuine picture) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html?ito=feeds-newsxml --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protection

Too many well-meaning edits that are throwing in trivial examples of what has happened, but more importantly too much vandalism from a number of different IP addresses. Blocked as indef until things settle - might be a while. violet/riga [talk] 21:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

non-Fatality in Croydon

Reports of shooting in Croydon, not seen on news sites yet but tweeted by ITV News ITV News Reports that a man has been shot in the head and killed in Croydon tonight. --AndrewTindall (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Still nothing I've seen yet. violet/riga [talk] 22:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sky now reporting a non-fatal shooting in Croydon. likely to be this same incident.--AndrewTindall (talk) 22:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Confirmed non fatal BBCs live feed states "2335: Police at the scene of the Croydon disturbances are investigating a "non-fatal" shooting, according to a source.

No more details are immediately available. " BBC London riots live feed --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 798blue798, 8 August 2011

bromely has been attacked. reeves corner has been burnt down. This dredfull attack is scaring chilldren that dont deseve to go through such devistation to their home. 798blue798 (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article is being updated as and when we get sources. If you have any links to help us then do please post them here. violet/riga [talk] 22:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Local press on rioting in Bromley: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/9184210.UPDATE__Richer_Sounds_smashed_in__Bromley_High_Street_and_Bromley_South_closed/. Fences&Windows 23:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit Request

It should be noted that the gun that was supposedly Duggan's was found wrapped up in a sock in his car. Patrick Barkham and Jon Henley (August 8, 2011). "Mark Duggan: profile of Tottenham police shooting victim". The Guardian. Retrieved 8 August 2011.

I can't seem to find anything that supports that in that article. violet/riga [talk] 22:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This link http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-relatives-dead-manSuperNewToWiki (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

corrected broken link for guardian --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

London map

There are several maps of London on sites with crisis points shown. We outside of the UK would like to see where is that happening, compared to where is the center of London if possible. Thanks, --93.137.203.29 (talk) 22:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a link to London borough - not perfect but it may be helpful. I considered adding more places on the map that currently only shows Tottenham but they are too close together to make it look right. Someone else might wish to try with a large version of the map. violet/riga [talk] 22:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Handy map of confirmed riot locations: "London riots / UK riots: verified areas". Stanley Oliver (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that qualifies as WP:RS - it is entirely unclear where it is sourced from. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request -Leeds incident unrelated please remove

This BBC report makes it clear that the Leeds incident is unrelated to the subject of this article. I have tried to delete it from the article twice, but my attempts have both been reverted. Are we going to include in this article all local and unrelated incidents that occurr tonight - anywhere? FactController (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just chastised a dog, does that count? violet/riga [talk] 23:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Bugger all to do with the riots. I don't seem to be able to edit the article anymore :( --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Liverpool?

BBC News just reported that some problems are happening in Liverpool now. Nothing worth adding yet but perhaps in the future. violet/riga [talk] 23:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sky News have shown video footage but currently unverified.

"0059: Merseyside Police confirm they are dealing with a number of incidents in South Liverpool, including cars being set alight. Members of the public have been advised to avoid Smithdown Road, Lodge Lane and Upper Parliament Street. In a statement, Merseyside Police's Andy Ward said: "Officer have tonight dealt with a small number of incidents of violence across the city. We will not tolerate any violence on the streets of Liverpool and have taken swift and robust action in response." via BBCs live feed --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to add it to the article if you can find and reference a reliable source, I've a feeling that tomorrow this page will be moved to "2011 United Kingdom riots" :( 12bigbrother12 (talk) 00:07, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think we'll have "2011 England riots" before then! violet/riga [talk] 00:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can't add it. I think the protection level is too high for me :P --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article name should be changed

The riots are no longer contained to London. They've spread to Birmingham and possibly Liverpool. This article therefore needs to be moved. 2.27.5.50 (talk) 00:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Might I suggest 'The Duggan riots'

I know it seems too likely to be related rather than a coincidence but we should wait until those events are confirmed as linked to those in London before renaming the article. If a rename is essential then I'd suggest 2011 England riots. Regards, --—Cyclonenim | Chat  00:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment it is mostly within London and the news agencies are still referring to it as the "London riots". Hopefully we won't have any further problems elsewhere but I guess we'll have to wait and see. violet/riga [talk] 00:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Birmingham, Liverpool, perhaps Bristol and Manchester. Riots don't happen randomly they are connected. This isn't just London anymore the name should be changed to '2011 England Riots' and if it spreads to Wales/Scotland/NI then '2011 UK riots'.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 00:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article up for deletion - please debate there and do not remove template

I've put this article up for deletion as I do not believe Wikipedia should have a current events news article such as this (Calling it '2011 London riots' etc). Please debate there. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vote keep. This was debated earlier. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stop wasting our time, this will be speedily kept. 12bigbrother12 (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) You should probably be aware of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011 Tottenham riots. Also, you may want to read up on the inclusion guidelines. Do not make the mistake of thinking WP:NOTNEWS is a blanket guideline that means we do not cover events that are covered by news sources; please actually read the guidelines before trying to implement them. Best wishes, SpitfireTally-ho! 00:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to debate whether Wikipedia should cover current events in general, this isn't the way to do it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Someone wants to make a WP:POINT. If he undoes my Speedy Keep I won't revert - it's not really appropriate. I'm sure that it will be done by someone else soon enough though. violet/riga [talk] 00:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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