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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Convit (talk | contribs) at 09:04, 14 August 2011 (Need to address resolution of initial, erroneous reports). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sizable sections of Breivik's manifesto copied from Unabomber's

Another issue that is coming to light is that apparently significant sections of Breivik's manifesto are copied and pasted from Theodore Kaczynski's manifesto, with just the odd word changed to alter the institutions the rant is directing against.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/07/anders_breivik_unabomber.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/07/24/oslo-utoya-norway-attacks-anders-breivik-manifesto-unibomber_n_908143.html

Heroes

Is there any room for reporting on the german tourist and the married couple who saved 30 and 40, respectively, teens via boat rescue? Aaronwayneodonahue (talk) 18:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's already in there, see the last paragraph of section 3.1 and the middle of section 3.2. DES (talk) 21:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Something one should keep in mind is that due to the WWII occupation there are some strong resentment to take into account relating to this event. Electron9 (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bollocks. There is no resentment towards Germany in present-day Norway. If there's anyone we still resent over the part they played in WWII, it's the Swedes, not the Germans. DES (talk) 11:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The couple is not mentioned. 66.188.228.180 (talk) 15:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

checkY they are now. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A sub-discussion has been started below so that DES and Electron9 can rant on about "the Swedes" and "the Germans", respectively.--Ønography (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"the Swedes" and "the Germans"

Is there a general or significant attitude in the Norwegian population, against these nationalities? I do not have any notable and independent references of such. If anyone else has, please post it here, and we will forward it to a more relevant discussion.--Ønography (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

POV tag

To prevent WP:DRIVEBY, POV tagging is usually accompanied by an explanation on the talk page of what the problem is and how to fix it. Without this, the tagging is likely to be removed.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's the rhetoric - the language usage. That's obvious. To anyone capable of reading. Speaking of pretty tags...
Please provide some concrete examples as to what language you find objectionable. Regards SoWhy 16:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming title

"2011 Norway attacks" is not an adequate title. There have already been other notable attacks in Norway this year. (And I would like to hear arguments about how a one-man expeditionary force has launched an attack on Norway. Rather, this article concerns the "seven-twentytwo bombing in Oslo and shootings in Buskerud", or Bombing in Oslo and murders in Buskerud 2011-7-22. Any other title-suggestions?--BustingInflatedEgos (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious title would be "2011 Oslo bombing and Utøya shooting". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.55.236 (talk) 23:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-experts of history (non-notable source) with a notable claim

I have moved text to discussion, "The attack on Utøya is the deadliest attack by a single gunman in recorded history". The reference is written by "radar staff" at website radaronline.com. "Radar staff" are not known for having hired any experts on history. (And if they have any, the unnamed authorship can not be attributed to him/her.) The removed reference is here, [1].--BustingInflatedEgos (talk) 20:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MSNBC is more cautious, and says that it is "believed to be the deadliest attack by a lone gunman anywhere in modern times."[2]--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 20:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Problem: we do not know what MSNBC means by modern times. For me, modern times started with the invention of the VCR. For now, I think that the article does not need any ranking of the shooting spree, unless it is done by a significant historian (not counting Gerald Michael Riviera) who has a good grasp on Asia, Africa, the Americas and Europe dating back perhaps four thousand years.--BustingInflatedEgos (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Guns didn't exist 4000 years ago hence there were no "gunmen". The phrase gunman could therefore only apply from the time the arquebus, the first "gun" (if you exclude cannons) was introduced in the 15th century. SpeakFree (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit pedantic. Although it is not the aim of Wikipedia to encourage spree killers to get themselves into Guinness World Records, it is generally agreed that the Utøya shooting is the worst of its kind anywhere in the world. In the List_of_shooting_sprees#List_of_spree_killings, only Woo Bum-kon comes close with 57 killed in 1982. The sourcing should be better than radaronline.com, but a statement putting the shooting into perspective should not be ruled out.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Generally agreed"? No. It is my claim that many cultures do not bother making a big deal decades and centuries after the fact, out of unfortunate incidents like these. Perhaps not every culture sells their newspapers and books through this kind of titilation. Can I reference my claim? We will get back to that if and when I enter my claim into an article. A further unreferenced claim of mine, is that history books between 1200 and 1900 mostly mention spree killings if notables were involved as victims or perpetrators.--BustingInflatedEgos (talk) 18:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the Utøya incident is regarded as a shooting spree, it is almost certainly the worst of its kind. There is little need to go back to the year 1200, because guns were not commonplace then, and a musket reloaded so slowly that it made a spree infeasible. Shooting sprees by a lone gunman require a modern weapon that can be reloaded rapidly, which is why nearly all of these incidents have occurred since World War 2. Please find a cite for a lone gunman shooting spree in the year 1200 before coming up with any more pedantic complaints about this.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:26, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well this is speculation of course but a gunman from the time of the arquebus/musket could have had multiple pre-loaded guns ready to perform a massacre although the weight of carrying several guns would have made more than a handful of victims impractical. I have never heard of such an incident though and I strongly doubt one ever occurred in the age of the early fire arms. SpeakFree (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For now I am satisfied with poppycock being temporarily removed from the article. I'll try to get back to this when new "record-breaking" poppycock is added to the article.
And again, "history books between 1200 and 1900 mostly mention spree killings ...". The point is that spree killings (not necessarily spree gunmen) have not been re-recorded (if recorded at all), if notables were not involved. I can not recall having claimed that there were victims of "spree gunmen" in the 1200's.--BustingInflatedEgos (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Non-encyclopedic text moved

"The girl in question is Stine Renate Håheim, who was interviewed by CNN's Richard Quest on 23 July 2011,[1] quoting her friend Helle Gannestad.[2]"

Text and reference have been removed. There was no question, so therefore there is no "girl in question".--Ønography (talk) 11:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There may be a misunderstanding about the phrasing. The "girl in question" means "the girl being referred to", so the sourcing appears to be OK.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath: Non-ethnic Norwegian threatened to leave the subway-train.

The article is coming along well, as a "multi-cultural group hug". However, does anyone have any notable references about an incident of a passenger of the subway (T-bane) in Oslo being threatened by another passenger to leave, whereafter other passengers chimed in to threaten the (first) passenger out of the train?

That a majority or minority might think that the subject is not notable, is hereby noted in advance. Please start a seperate discussion about that subject.--Ønography (talk) 19:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Attacks on Muslims section

User:Ønography has three times re-added this poorly written and sourced section regarding attacks on Muslims. Could other editors chime in one whether the article needs anything like this whatsoever? As it hasn't been widely reported, it's my opinion that it's inappropriate per WP:WEIGHT. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the attacks on muslims have been widely reported in norway, and hence they should be mentioned. the problem is that the added section is badly written and inadequately sourced.-- mustihussain (talk) 16:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but if we're going to say "widely reported," we'll need the sources to indicate so. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
no need to write "widely reported" in the article. here are some sources on the net: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. in addition, there are several offline articles like those mentioned by ønography.-- mustihussain (talk) 17:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone please sort this out (preferably someone fluent in both Norwegian and English?) - the section has been inserted yet again, in spite of the obvious problems. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:49, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
yes, i can sort it out but i'm too busy at the moment. however, in principle, ønography should participate in this discussion first.-- mustihussain (talk) 12:53, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've just left a comment on Ønography's talk page regarding this - but there is no requirement that he/she participates in revising article content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have no opinion on the subject matter here but as there is clearly edit warring going on I have raised this at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Edit_warring_at_2011_Norway_attacks. RichardOSmith (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback loop & Breivek plays everyone

The manifesto is not his own, press outlets have been in a feedback loop, look at CNN.

Proposed correction for Political Views in this article:-

Breivik is linked to a compendium entitled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence bearing the name "Andrew Berwick", the file was e-mailed to 1,003 addresses about 90 minutes before the bomb blast in Oslo.[3][4] CNN has not been able to independently verify that the document was written by Breivik. Police told the Norwegian newspaper VG that the document is "linked". The compendium describes two years of preparation of unspecified attacks, supposedly planned for autumn 2011, involving a rented Volkswagen Crafter van (just small enough not to require a truck driving license) loaded with 1160 kg of ANFO, a Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle ("the most 'army like' rifle allowed in Norway, although it is considered a 'poor man’s' AR-15"), a Glock 34 pistol, personal armor including a shield, caltrops, and police insignias. It also reports that Breivik spent thousands of hours on gathering email addresses from Facebook for distribution of the compendium, and that he rented a farm as a cover for a fake farming company buying fertilizer and as a lab for production of the explosives. It describes burying a crate with the armor etc. in July 2010 in the woods, and collecting it on July 4, 2011, and abandoning his plan to replace it with survival gear because he did not have a second pistol. The entry for the day of the attacks mentions blasting sequences, though at Kautokeino for mining, and dressing up as a police officer, though as something he planned to do at a costume party in the autumn.[5]

The introductory chapter of the manifesto defining "Cultural Marxism" is a copy of Political Correctness: A Short History of an Ideology by the Free Congress Foundation.[6][7][8] Major parts of the compendium are attributed to the pseudonymous Norwegian blogger Fjordman.[9] The text also copies sections of the Unabomber manifesto, without giving credit, while exchanging the words "leftists" for "cultural Marxists" and "black people" for "muslims".[10] The New York Times described American influences in the writings, noting that the compendium mentions the anti-Islamist American Robert Spencer 64 times and cites Spencer's works at great length.[11] The work of Bat Ye'or[12] is cited dozens of times.[13] Neoconservative blogger Pamela Geller,[14] Neo-pagan writer Koenraad Elst[15] and Daniel Pipes are also mentioned as sources of inspiration.[16] The manifesto further contains quotes from Middle-eastern expert Bernard Lewis, Edmund Burke, Mahatma Gandhi, Thomas Jefferson and George Orwell,[17] as well as from Jeremy Clarkson's Sunday Times column and Melanie Phillips' Daily Mail column.[18] The publication speaks in admiration of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bruce Bawer, Srđa Trifković,[19] and Henryk M. Broder.[20] The compendium advocates a restoration of patriarchy which it claims would save European culture.[21][22]

Breivik wants to see European policies on multiculturalism and immigration more similar to those of Japan and South Korea,[23] which he said are "not far from cultural conservatism and nationalism at its best".[24] He expressed his admiration for the "monoculturalism" of Japan and for the two nations' refusal to accept refugees.[25][26]

Norwegian computer security analysts are in the process of researching what appear to be hidden codes in Breivik's manifesto, including references to the GPS coordinates of several major sites throughout Europe.[27]

--Hemshaw (talk) 00:30, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"On a reliable secondary source"

Am I a "reliable secondary source"? I wouldn't like to live in a country, where you can't publish, because all that is published, has to be read and filtered by a "reliable secondary source". And then they lock you away in an isolation cell without contact to anyone, so you can't even write any more. Is that an Orwell way of spelling censorship?

I have quite a contrary idea. There are different 2083 - A European Declaration of Independence on the web. Let's collect, what we have got. In case we encounter conflicting cites, there is a chance to find out, what Breivik really said, and who published fraud. Let's find the primary source. By the way, I found nothing in 2083 that contradicts other information I have. There are a lot of interesing things in my version, for example Breivik saying, a Justiciar Knight wears a mini-camera during operation (shooting). I would like to know, if he filmed what happened in front of his shooting guns. Sannmann (talk) 19:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an online encyclopaedia, not an amateur detective agency - and see WP:OR. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:35, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't like our version of the WP:TRUTH and disagree with one of the fundamental aspects of this project, why not go and start a blog or something with single-authorship? That way you wouldn't have to deal with all these pesky rules. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:26, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Opening sentence

There are way too many citations in the opening sentence, including bare URLs. These need pruning.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Initial reports

For quite a while after the incident (several days?) it was reported that two bombs, not one, had gone off in Oslo. It seems this should be addressed: when did the police announce that it had been only a single bomb, and why what accounts for the initial reports being erroneous? In addition, wasn't the death toll reported as being over 90 for the first few days?

  1. ^ "Norway Island survivor: CNN's Richard Quest talks to Stine Renate Haheim". CNN. 23 July 2011. Retrieved 24 July 2011. If one man can create that much hate, you can only imagine how much love we as a togetherness can create.
  2. ^ "Kjærlighetsbudskapet sprer seg i alle kanaler" (in Norwegian). 24 July 2011. Retrieved 31 July 2011. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
  3. ^ Matthew Taylor. "Breivik sent 'manifesto' to 250 UK contacts hours before Norway killings". The Guardian. UK. Retrieved 27 July 2011.
  4. ^ By ADAM GELLER AP National Writer (2011-07-30). "Norway gunman's tale diverges sharply from reality". Mercurynews.com. Retrieved 2011-08-10.
  5. ^ By the CNN Wire Staff. "Purported manifesto, video from Norway terror suspect detail war plan, CNN 24 July 2011". Edition.cnn.com. Retrieved 2011-08-10. {{cite web}}: |author= has generic name (help)
  6. ^ William S. Lind, ed. (2004). "Political Correctness:" A Short History of an Ideology. Free Congress Foundation. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  7. ^ "Scholars Respond to Breivik Manifesto" (Press release). National Association of Scholars. 28 July 2011.
  8. ^ Anne-Catherine Simon, Christoph Saiger und Helmar Dumbs (29 July 2011). "Die Welt, wie Anders B. Breivik sie sieht". Die Presse (in German).
  9. ^ "Dette er terroristens store politiske forbilde – nyheter". Dagbladet.no. 18 August 2009. Retrieved 25 July 2011.
  10. ^ "Massedrapsmannen kopierte "Unabomberen" ord for ord". Nrk.no. Retrieved 24 July 2011.
  11. ^ Scott Shane (25 July 2011). "Killings in Norway spotlight anti-Muslim thought in U.S." The New York Times.
  12. ^ Smith, Craig S. (20 February 2005). "Europe's Jews Seek Solace on the Right". The New York Times.
  13. ^ Archer, Toby (25 July 2011). "Breivik's Swamp". Foreign Policy (magazine).
  14. ^ Shane, Scott (24 July 2011). "«Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S." NYT.
  15. ^ "If Only He Had Read The Brussels Journal". TBJ. 27 July 2011. Retrieved 29 July 2011.
  16. ^ Chahine, Marwan (25 July 2011). ""2083, Une déclaration européenne d'indépendance" ou le petit manuel du néo-croisé". Libération.
  17. ^ Lee, Sarah (25 July 2011). "http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/25/norway-melanie-phillips-hits-back". Guardian. Retrieved 29 July 2011. {{cite news}}: External link in |title= (help)
  18. ^ Bigotry a stepping stone to extreme action Newsroom, 26 July 2011
  19. ^ De var Breiviks helter (They were Breivik's heroes), 26 July 2011, Dagbladet
  20. ^ Balzter, Sebastian; von Altenbockum, Jasper (26 July 2011). "Der Attentäter im Internet. Im blinden Hass gegen Hass". Frankfurter Allgemeine (in German).
  21. ^ "Norway Killer's Hatred of Women". TDB. Retrieved 29 July 2011.
  22. ^ "Anders Breivik's chilling anti-feminism". Guardian. Retrieved 29 July 2011.
  23. ^ "Norway killer Anders Behring Breivik's cultural references". The Daily Telegraph. 25 July 2011.
  24. ^ "Norway killings: Breivik posted hate-filled video on YouTube hours before attacks". The Daily Telegraph. 24 July 2011.
  25. ^ "Breivik looked up to Japanese 'monoculturalism'". The Tokyo Times. 25 July 2011.
  26. ^ "Norway killer praises Japan as model country – Kyodo". Reuters. 26 July 2011.
  27. ^ "Experts try to decode Breivik's manifesto".
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