Talk:Elvis Presley

Elvis was Jewish???

Long-winded debate rendered pointless by contributor refusing to accept WP:RS policy

His great great grandmother was Jewish, according to Jewish law it is passed down maternally in Orthodox Judaism therefore it should be stated.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 16:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC) Elvis was aware of this.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 16:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC) The sources you brought are not scholarly books. There is no certainty of Presley's being a Jew. Binksternet (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC) It has been well documented that he had Jewish ancestry.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC) http://www.abebooks.com/Schmelvis-Search-Elvis-Presleys-Jewish-Roots/1487897785/bd--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC) Therefore I should be able to add it, that is a reliable source and a scholared source.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schmelvis-Search-Elvis-Presleys-Jewish/dp/155022462X--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2011 (UTC) The claim is dubious. It is already adequately covered in a footnote. Your links are dysfunctional. There is no evidence that Elvis or his mother believed they were Jewish. And your understanding of Jewish law is weak—for Elvis to have been Jewish, his mother would have had to be Jewish, meaning her mother would have had to be Jewish, and her mother would have had to be Jewish, AND her mother would have had to be Jewish. Even if it were granted that one of Gladys's great-grandmothers was Jewish (and we can't grant that), that would establish only that that woman's children were also Jewish according to religious law, and no evidence has ever been presented that the link between Gladys and that generation was entirely maternal. It could just as easily have been Jewish great-grandmother > Jewish grandfather > non-Jewish father > non-Jewish Gladys.—DCGeist (talk) 00:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Sure, Elvis was Jewish. That accounts for all the Christian gospel songs he sang. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC) His great-great grandmother was Jewish it is passed down maternally, then his grandmother would have been Jewish, then his mother, then Elvis himself, Elvis was well aware of his Jewish heritage. Elvis was well aware of his Jewish ancestry, as a child was instructed not to advertise the fact because "people didn't like Jews" according to his parents. Yet, Elvis, who lived in an apartment below a Jewish rabbi, would often visit. The widow of the rabbi talks about Elvis. She recalls how, Elvis would visit their house on Saturday in order to turn on lights and do things they weren't allowed to do. Elvis carried a yarmulke in his pocket. He was fascinated by Jewish music. As an adult, she remembers how Elvis donated to several Jewish organizations. Lots and lots of pictures him wearing the Star of David. --GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 10:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_Elvis_Presley Although he did not practice the religion, Elvis was halachically Jewish, because of his mother's Jewish heritage (her mother had been Jewish, as had her grandmother, her great-grandmother, etc.). He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality."--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers#Music Elvis Presley's great-great-grandmother was Jewish. Elvis personally had a Star of David carved into his mother's grave. He also learned the Hebrew alphabet, donated to Jewish charities, had a Rabbi as his spiritual teacher, and he routinely wore a Chai necklace (meaning “Life/Living” in Hebrew) in order to celebrate his Jewish heritage. Elvis was Jewish by law and did have a great-great grandmother who was Jewish and it was maternally down the line, he was Jewish and was well aware of it, it should be re-added it is part of Elvis and has been proven and on other wikipedia pages is also mentioned. Many people have discussed this I have even seen it up before but somebody keeps removing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 10:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Probably because it's about as "relevant" as Barack Obama being Irish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC) I just checked find-a-grave. Ain't no star of David "carved into" his mother's grave. It has a Christian cross just above her name, as with his father's and also his own. Besides which, the letters are raised, not "carved into".[1] I note that there is one Jew prominently featured there, though. Among the pictures you'll see a big-honkin' statue of Jesus. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC) In looking at ancestry.com, his maternal line appears to be Smith - Mansell - Tackett - Burdine. Nothing obviously Jewish there, but that doesn't prove anything either way. Some sources seem to think that the Burdine was Jewish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Another point: Geordie keeps talking about Orthodox Jewish law. First, Jewish "law" has no legal standing in America, and is better regarded as Jewish "custom" or "tradition". Second, she married a gentile, which no practicing Orthodox Jew would do. In any case, Elvis' family was predominantly Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC) I'm not on about his religious side I know he was Christian but a Jew is a Jew and it is a race and a religion, you can be Jewish without practicing any religion or another religion besides Judaism so your argument is flawed. Obama being Irish... no it is well sourced and many upon many people know of this, why is he in other wikipedia pages about him being Jewish then don't avoid it. http://www.amazon.com/Elvis-Gladys-Southern-Icons-Elaine/dp/1578066344/sr=8-1/qid=1159378028/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5892715-7426557?ie=UTF8&s=books http://www.amazon.com/Schmelvis-Search-Presleys-Jewish-Roots/dp/155022462X/sr=1-1/qid=1159378134/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5892715-7426557?ie=UTF8&s=books Is sourced.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC) He was at most one-sixteenth Jewish heritage, and the claim about his great-grandmother being Jewish seems to be in doubt in any case. You seem to be equating Jewishness with race. Jewishness is not a race. Supposing his great-grandmother was a practicing Christian, then the family stopped being Jewish, and maternal line is irrelevant maybe unless Elvis wanted to claim to be Jewish - which he didn't. He was 100 percent Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC) You are wrong. Jewish is both a race and a religion, the word Jew derives from Judea not Judaism, Judaism is the way of life for Jews but plenty of Jews practice other religions but still are Jewish look at Karl Marx for example, you can't stop being Jewish, you can be born Jewish so you will forever be Jewish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F Also you just admitted he had Jewish heritage which he did have, why is he under Jewish Americans the culture as Jewish? BECAUSE HE WAS JEWISH.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC) There is no such thing as a Jewish "race". That's a bogus, Nazi argument. I'm fractionally Irish. Am I Irish-American? Maybe. Am I Irish? No. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC) Some sources According to Jewish law, user GeordieWikiEditor seems to be right. Here are some reliable sources: "Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70. There can be no doubt that Martha’s mother "Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21. "Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3. It should further be noted that the American Jewish Desk Reference (1999) by the American Jewish Historical Society is the first all-encompassing reference to Jewish life in the United States, from 1654 to the present. This authoritative reference of nearly 900 entries covers all aspects of America's lively and influential Jewish culture. It says on p. 128, "Shortly before he became the King of Rock and Roll, a teenaged Elvis Presley was the Shabbos goy for his upstairs neighbor, the local rabbi in the Jewish section of Memphis, Tennessee." This strongly suggests that Elvis himself was well aware of his Jewish heritage. Onefortyone (talk) 23:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC) And his being a shabbos goy is a good indication that he himself was not considered to be Jewish. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I don't think so. It only shows that he was not considered to be an Orthodox Jew, as his father was Christian. Only his mother seems to have been Jewish. Onefortyone (talk) 00:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I rather take Bugs's viewpoint: if the rabbi considered Presley a goy worthy of doing tasks disallowed for Jews on the Sabbath, the rabbi had pretty much accepted that Presley was not at all Jewish. It seems to me if the rabbi considered him a significant fraction Jewish, he would have chosen some other kid to do the disallowed work. Binksternet (talk) 01:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks, Bugs, though you can be sure the troll knows. And, as usual, the troll has deliberately and maliciously represented a source. His claim that based on Dundy "there can be no doubt that Martha's mother 'Nancy was Jewish'" is blatantly false, as he well knows. Dundy notes that a third cousin of Elvis's claimed that a great-grandmother of Gladys's was Jewish. That leaves considerable room for doubt. As the troll is very familiar with this article, he also well knows that the cousin's claim has been directly debunked by syndicated columnist Nate Bloom. I know the troll would love to drag us into a back and forth about this, but it's not happening, at least on my end. This is the first and last time that I will directly address the troll's comments in this thread. Henceforth, his lies and willful misrepresentations will be ignored and, as always, any attempt he makes to mess with the article will be swiftly reverted. Goodbye, troll. DocKino (talk) 00:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Don't call me a troll, DocKino. Elaine Dundy writes that Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish." (Elvis and Gladys, p.21). This does not sound as if Dundy leaves considerable room for doubt, as you falsely claim. Onefortyone (talk) 01:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Good plan. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Having kids named Sidney and Jerome is, of course, solid proof of Jewishness, although I'm sure that would come as a surprise to Sidney Poitier and Jerome Bettis, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Let's start again at the beginning: "His great great grandmother was Jewish, according to Jewish law it is passed down maternally in Orthodox Judaism therefore it should be stated". Wrong. Just wrong. Wikipedia isn't governed by Jewish law. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Nor was Elvis, nor his parents, grandparents, etc. Looking at Who is a Jew?, and IF the unproven rumors about his great-great-grandmother happen to be true, THEN Elvis could be considered a Jew by birth, but only by Orthodox Judaism. Other branches of Judaism disagree with that premise. Some of the posters here might be forgetting what the matrilineal thing is about. As a Jew once told me, "You know who the mother is, but you don't necessarily know who the father is." That was before DNA testing came along, but that's the core concept anyway. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:38, 27 April 2011 (UTC) That is the point, really. If orthodox Jews wish to assert that by their laws, Elvis was Jewish, that is their right. It doesn't make it so by Wikipedia standards however. It cannot be, unless it is recognised by the non-'orthodox-Jewish' and the 'non-Jewish'. This is basic stuff, and implicit in WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and almost everything the project has ever said about verifiability. 01:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC) The definition of who is a Jew varies according to whether it is being considered by Jews based on normative religious statutes, self-identification, or by non-Jews for other reasons. Jewish identity can include characteristics of an ethnicity, a religion, and citizenship. If one of the parents is not Jewish, the rule is that the child takes the status of the mother. Indeed, Orthodox and Conservative communities do not recognize the Jewishness of a person if only the father is Jewish. Accordingly, if the mother is Jewish, so is her child. Reform rabbis in North America have set standards by which a person with one Jewish parent is considered a Jew if there have been "appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people," such as a Jewish naming ceremony (remember that Elvis's parents named their son Elvis Aaron Presley). However, Orthodox Judaism considers a person born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish, even if they convert to another religion. According to the sources I have given above, it seems as if Gladys was well aware of her Jewish heritage. To my mind, it may be mentioned in the article. Onefortyone (talk) 02:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC) None of which has the slightest relevance, since Wikipedia is not governed by any form of Jewish law, tradition, or anything similar. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC) However, Elvis's personal development may have been governed by some form of Jewish tradition, and this certainly would have considerable relevance for the singer's biography. Onefortyone (talk) 02:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) If you can provide reliable sources that demonstrate this, then maybe it would - though take note of WP:OR - you will have to find sources that themselves state this, rather than 'evidence' you find yourself. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Why are you calling people trolls for putting point across? Also being Jewish is both a race and a religion, think back to all the expelling of Jews in different countries and the extermination of Jews in Nazi regime if it was solidly just a religion how would anybody know who is and who isn't a Jew? Because IT IS an ethnicity and can be argued a "race" depending on what you describe as a "Jew", you stated you have Irish heritage in you, then yes you are Irish-American you can't doubt that, unless you are Cherokee or whatever other tribes are Native Americans you ain't really American. Back to Elvis, it has been well documented and that is sources how can you deny it? Why do you not like the fact Elvis was a Jew? Also why do you keep AVOIDING my argument, why is he on other wikipedia pages stating he is Jewish? 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_Elvis_Presley 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_entertainers That totally contradicts you, so why ain't he removed of either of them? Plenty upon plenty of sources state Elvis was Jewish and being Jewish is maternally passed down the line, his mother WAS Jewish therefore Elvis himself WAS Jewish and he was well aware of this, are you upset that he was Jewish or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 10:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Jewishness is not a race. That's Nazi propaganda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Here we are. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) No, it actually was Nazi propaganda. They kept talking about the "Jewish race". I had thought that notion was dead. Silly me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC) "...being Jewish is maternally passed down the line". No it isn't. This is a belief held by (some) people of the Jewish faith. If Elvis was a believer in the Jewish faith, this might well be relevant, but since there is no evidence that he was, it is utterly irrelevant. And yes, 'Jewish' is not a race. Thanks for pointing out the Wikipedia articles that claim that Elvis was Jewish - since they were unsourced, I've deleted both references. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC) It is not Nazi propaganda it is true that Jews are both a race and a religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48937817.html http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html Many upon many things back it up, and no it doesn't matter what Elvis considered himself religious wise ethnically he was Jewish, a Jew is a Jew. Wow well done you can remove them but it doesn't answer why was it even there in the first place? Why is they many sources stating he was Jewish? Please define a source in your opinion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeordieWikiEditor (talk • contribs) 14:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I have asked some actual Jewish editors to come here and weigh in on this discussion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC) As Andy says, it should only be in the article if reliable sources support it. As an editor who is not of the Jewish faith, but who's heritage is a quarter Jewish (not too shabby!), I will attest that the Jews are indeed a race of people. I'm sure you meant well Bugs, but I have to say that your comment that it is "Nazi propaganda" is quite hurtful. Joefromrandb (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Really? What are their distinctive genetic characteristics, i.e. what is the "Jew gene"? And if I decide to convert to Judaism, do I then become a member of this "race"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is not the place for this discussion. Debating this here will not improve this article. I'd be happy to continue the discussion on my talk page, or yours, should you be interested. Joefromrandb (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is the place, and it will improve the article (or at least keep junk out of the article). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I'm all for "keeping the junk out". But debating what constitutes Jewishness here will not improve the article. As multiple editors have noted, the only way to include that here would be if reliable sources back it up. They do not appear to. Inserting information based on a definition of Jewishness that was decided by Wikipedia editors would be original research. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Precisely. We have a couple of characters here who insist on labeling Elvis as part of some non-existent Jewish "race", and applying OR to conclude that Elvis is Jewish. As you say, that's bogus. Even if true, they have not provided any valid sourcing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I understand your point. And Muboshgu also makes a good one about Jewishness being an ethnicity as opposed to a race. I'd still prefer you to redact the "Nazi propaganda" comments. The efforts to include Elvis' alleged Jewishness in this article are misguided, but appear to be in good faith. Saying that someone is perpetuating "Nazi propaganda" is a very serious charge. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC) They need to redact the obsolete, offensive nonsense about Jewishness being a "race". Once they've done that, get back to me. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I think reliable sources are what matter. I don't see any reliable sources saying that Elvis Presley was Jewish, but if I've overlooked such a source please bring it to my attention. "Judaism 101" says: "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do." In my opinion that is a fairly standard definition. (A minority opinion would include children of Jewish fathers as being Jewish.) But for our purposes we need verifiable sources. Concerning Elvis Presley being Jewish such sources seem to be lacking. Bus stop (talk) 18:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Bus Stop, your opinion is totally irrelevant. Wikipedia is not bound by Jewish law, tradition or beliefs. You are however right about needing reliable sources. These would need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish, by ethnicity and/or by faith. Any other 'definition' would constitute a misrepresentation of a the rules of a particular belief system as 'factual', which would be utterly contrary to Wikipedia policy. This is all that needs to be said on the matter, and any attempt to argue otherwise on this talk page will only constitute trolling, as policy changes cannot be decided here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Jew weighing in here, brought in by Baseball Bugs... Judaism is not a "race", it can be considered an ethnicity. My race is Caucasian. As far as what to make of Elvis' Jewish ancestry, which I was not aware of until Bugs brought it up to me, I'm not sure how much to make of it. To me, religion is mostly about how you identify, not this silly rule about which parent passes it down. IIRC, Catholicism (or is it Christianity as a whole?) passes it down through the paternal line, so a kid with a Jewish mother and Christian (or Catholic) father is kinda stuck there in terms of which wins out, by that argument. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC) That's a fair point. Joefromrandb (talk) 20:56, 27 April 2011 (UTC) They's a difference being a religious Jew and being a racial Jew. Anybody can be a Jew if converted to Judaism but you can also be of Jewish heritage, Jew derives from Judea not Judaism. It doesn't matter if Elvis considered himself Jewish or not he was well aware of his Jewish ancestry. Do you think he considered himself German or Scottish even though he had that in his heritage? No he just considered himself American, do you think Karl Marx considered himself Jewish? No he was a self-hating Jew, once a Jew always a Jew this is a fact. They is reliable sources further up stating and proving that Elvis was Jewish, his middle name is also kind of making it even more obvious.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Your personal views about what actually defines a Jew are as irrelevant as your claims that anyone here would "not like" Presley to be Jewish are baseless and mean-spirited. But what's most important is that your final claim is completely false. Not one single reliable source has been provided "proving that Elvis was Jewish." The strongest evidence--weak as it is--in a reliable source is Dundy's report that a third cousin of Presley's claimed that one of their great-great-grandmothers was Jewish. As detailed in the existing note, syndicated columnist Nate Bloom--who researched the matter more thoroughly than Dundy--rather conclusively debunked the cousin's claim. The other work you adduce, Goldstein and Wallace's Schmelvis, is a humor book. If you actually believe that it "proves" Elvis was Jewish, or even comes close, give us the page(s) and quote the evidence, which you have never bothered to do. DocKino (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Your only source, DocKino, seems to be Nate Bloom. Has this Jewish columnist written a book on Elvis? No, he hasn’t. He has only given his personal opinion on a website that helps and provides resources for couples with one Jewish partner and one non-Jewish partner. Is this really a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards? I don't think so. Be that as it may, on this webpage dealing with "The Jews Who Wrote Christmas Songs" (see [2]) we can read: Presley was not Jewish. Yes, some sources repeat a tall tale that Presley's third cousin told 20 years ago to a Jewish biographer of Presley. This cousin said that he and Presley shared a very remote Jewish maternal ancestor (a woman who lived in the early to mid 1800's) This biographer did no further checking on this cousin's story. She just reported it as "fact." A detailed check of available records shows that this maternal ancestor was not Jewish. Presley and his parents did share a two-family house in Memphis, Tenn. with a poor Orthodox rabbi and his family in the early '50s. I spoke to the daughter of this rabbi. Her mother, the rabbi's wife, and Presley's mother, Gladys, were close friends. Gladys, her mother told her, never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Her mother said that if Gladys had any knowledge of any Jewish ancestor, the mother was sure Gladys wouldn't have hesitated to mention it. Presley worked for the rabbi's family, doing tasks Jews were not permitted to do on the Jewish Sabbath. He did this for free. The rabbi, in turn, did things like lend Presley his record player and arrange for a summer camp trip for Presley. When Presley hit it big, he made a major donation to the rabbi's religious school. As I often tell people, the true story of the lovely relations between this rabbi's family and the Presley family is a more important and meaningful story than a story about Presley having a remote Jewish maternal ancestor. So much for this rather weak personal opinion. Bloom's only argument is his claim that a detailed check of available records (which records?) shows that Elvis's maternal ancestor was not Jewish and that he spoke to the daughter of the rabbi who allegedly said that her mother told her that Gladys never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Interestingly, Bloom didn't know the rabbi's family name, and he didn't even know the other source which explicitly states that Gladys told Elvis that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish. Furthermore, the friendship with the rabbi and his family and Elvis's major donation to the rabbi's religious school strongly suggest that there might have been some deeper Jewish connections. Onefortyone (talk) 22:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Why did he wear the Star of David? Why is books out in the big wide world telling everyone he was Jewish? How can I give you the quotes in pages from a book I don't own?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Exactly what are these "books...telling everyone he was Jewish?" Does even Dundy, for instance, say "Elvis Presley was Jewish"? I don't believe she does, but if you do, give us the page and the quote. How do you explain the fact that the two-volume biography by Peter Guralnick--widely recognized as the most thoroughly researched, authoritative treatment of his life--makes not the slightest suggestion that Presley was Jewish? Indeed, it's difficult to quote a book you don't own. Why are you even referring to a book you don't own, have never even looked at, and don't even recognize is a humor book? DocKino (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Geordie was already proven wrong about the gravestone of his mother supposedly having the star of David. "Elvis wore the Star of David"? Where's the evidence for that claim? I'm starting to think that he's making this stuff up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC) You guys need another reliable source? Here is Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31: Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. Onefortyone (talk) 22:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC) As I pointed out earlier,[3] there is no Star of David on Gladys' tomb. Since he got that dead wrong, I assume the rest of his so-called information is unreliable also. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is your personal opinion. Which source explicitly states that there is no Star of David on Gladys' tomb? The photographs didn't show all parts of the tombstone. Onefortyone (talk) 22:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC) His mother's tomb, like his own, is topped with a Christian symbol, a cross. That stands to reason, as the family was Christian. Regarding the "Aaron" business, I have relatives named Aaron, and they are all Christian. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC) And as I also pointed out earlier, the tomb has raised lettering. There's nothing "carved into" it. It's plainly obvious that the author of that book has never seen it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC) This is again your personal opinion. The source says otherwise and this is what counts on Wikipedia. Onefortyone (talk) 23:02, 27 April 2011 (UTC) The source is dead wrong, therefore it's unreliable and cannot be used. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Believe it or not, the source isn't wrong, as ElvisFan1981 has shown below. Onefortyone (talk) 23:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Looking through Google Images of Elvis, I don't see any that have a Hebrew symbol around his neck. If y'all can find even one, I'd like to see it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC) For one of several of Elvis's Star of David watches, see [4]. Onefortyone (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Just so that all those concerned have the full facts for this discussion regarding Gladys' grave and the Star of David; the grave at Graceland is not her original grave, as of course it was moved there with Elvis' in late 1977. Her original grave did indeed have a Star of David, and the grave was designed by Elvis himself with knowledge of his mother's Jewish roots in mind. Apparently Gladys made Elvis very aware of their Jewish roots from a very young age in his life. A quick google search shows clearly her original grave and the Star of David. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:03, 27 April 2011 (UTC) How many Jews do you know that have a Christian cross on their graves? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:08, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I am not saying that anyone is or isn't Jewish, I am just pointing out that her original grave did indeed have a Star of David on it; I think it's important for everyone to have the full facts within this discussion. The reasons for both symbols are, I assume, because Elvis and his family were primarily Christian, but Gladys and Elvis did have, or could have had, Jewish roots through the maternal line. The main point is that Elvis, albeit at some very basic level, was aware of his families Jewish heritage in some form. There are also images of him wearing the Star of David on stage, perhaps for his "technicality" argument, though, to be fair. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for the clarification. Although we may have disagreed in several points in the past, I like your contributions, as in most cases they are reliably sourced. Onefortyone (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC) I've asked our Jewish contributor to give his thoughts on what having both a 6-pointed star and a cross on one's headstone would signify. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC) AndyTheGrump—in reference to your post here, you say "You are however right about needing reliable sources. These would need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish…" Do you find support in Wikipedia policy for the idea that we would "need to show that Elvis considered himself Jewish," or are these just your personal feelings? If you find support for that in policy would you please point such policy out? Bus stop (talk) 23:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC) It did indeed have a a Star of David on the grave, he was aware of his Jewish heritage, what is the problem? Also how can I quote something from a book (i.e a page from a book) when I don't own it?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC) You mean you had never even looked at Schmelvis when you claimed that it "proved" Elvis was Jewish? That's very irresponsible of you. Please don't mention or link us to Schmelvis again. DocKino (talk) 01:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Also clearly it isn't a coincidence that he was on 2 other Wikipedia sites stating he was Jewish?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC) There are all sorts of poorly sourced or entirely unsourced rumors represented on low-quality Wikipedia pages. This is a high-quality Wikipedia article, with much higher standards. Instead of repeatedly referring us to low-quality sources that--coincidentally!--support your personal perspective, please read our policy on WP:Verifiability, particularly the section on reliable sources. If you had done that by now, you might have spared us the useless, time-wasting discussion of Schmelvis and other Wikipedia pages. DocKino (talk) 01:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Checking around, there are some pictures of him wearing a chai around his neck in 1977. This may have more merit than I had originally thought. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC) I have asked User:Malik Shabazz-a Jewish editor and an administrator I respect-if he would be willing to comment here. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:53, 28 April 2011 (UTC) There is a difference between 'being aware of having Jewish heritage' (though this hasn't actually been demonstrated yet), and 'being Jewish'. In any case, none of this is relevant, as we can only include statements on ethnicity, faith etc when provided with reliable sources - we cannot base this on our interpretation of photographs, as this would be original research - or more accurately guesswork. As for the content of other Wikipedia pages, firstly, they were unsourced (and hence, removed), and secondly, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for itself - this is common sense, as well as policy. Can I suggest that those wishing to contribute to the article look for evidence, read our policy on sources if they haven't already, and then come back if they have something of relevance? This is not a forum for general discussion about Elvis. Contributions not directly relevant to the article content are off-topic, and may be deleted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Here are my thoughts: 1) Elvis didn't consider himself a Jew, so I'd be very surprised if a reliable source could be found that says he was Jewish. 2) If Elvis had a direct maternal ancestor who was Jewish, he might be considered Jewish under Jewish law. But Wikipedia is not a rabbinical court, so Jewish law has no relevance here. 3) Consider WP:UNDUE. How relevant to his biography is Presley's possible Jewish ancestry—assuming support for such ancestry can be found in reliable sources? I think the way this is being handled—in a content note—is probably appropriate. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC) It doesn't matter if he considered himself Jewish he knew he had Jewish ancestry these pictures and family records do not lie it is even on the elvispresley website itself. About his other ethnicties Scottish/German when you read the references... it is a book? Please tell me how that is a reliable source. David Cameron is Jewish but doesn't define himself as Jewish, difference? NONE.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 09:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Brad Hirschfield,Author,radio and TV talk show host,and President of CLAL - The National Jewish Centres for Learning and Leadership. Listed as one of the nations 50 most influential rabbis in Newsweek,had this to say back in January 8,2010. "Elvis Presley would have turned 75 today,and people are still asking if he was Jewish. Well perhaps he was,at least according to Jewish law,if not in his own mind. According to some Elvis historians,his mother's maternal grandmother was Jewish - a woman named Nancy (others say, Martha) Tachett. Of course,Elvis never thought of himself as Jewish. At least there is no evidence that he did. From the standpoint of halakka (Jewish law),the answer is by all means. In fact according to the Talmud,one remains Jewish even if they choose to convert to another tradition. Jewishness is a forever kind of thing. Of course the implications of that law are potentially two - fold: on the one hand,nothing a person does can dissolve there connection to the Jewish people. Once you are in,you are in forever. On the other hand, it suggest that Jewishness can operate independently of any idiology or pratice,in which case one might be considered a member of the Jewish people even if they don't meet the test according to how some Jews interpret Jewish law. Elvis' Jewishness,like his music,reprisents a fluid blending of cultures and communities. I can't help but wonder how good it might be for Jews and Judaism if we were as good at applying that process to faith and community as Elvis was to music..." In clossing I would also like to mention also something Elvis himself mentions with humor,when asked why he wore a cross,the Hebrew letter chai,and a star of David around his neck. "I don't want to miss out on heaven due to a technicality," he said.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Exactly, these people who are saying you need a reliable source to prove he was a Jew well why would they be plenty of books and historians who have stated his mothers grandmother was Jewish? Elvis didn't consider himself a Jew by religion he was a devoted Christian but this about his ethnic Jewish ancestry, even Jews admit Jews are both a ethnicity/race and a religion yet people further up state it's only a religion so really their don't even know what a "Jew" is themselves, it does not matter if Elvis thought of himself religiously as Jewish (following Judaism) once a Jew always a Jew lots of Jews practice other religions or no religion but still remain Jewish. You say you have not even bothered to quote us on the Schmelvis book on which page(s) but if I've not got the book how can I? A whole website "http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html" which even before Jewish is elvispresleynews states his Jewishness, so many people who look up to Elvis know he had Jewish ancestry and so did he himself, the pictures here - http://www.debbieschlussel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/elvischai21.jpg You go on about books not being reliable sources, his "Scottish and German" ancestry are book referenced, please tell me how this is any different? Remember this is not about personal opinions this is about facts.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 11:56, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Another book - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IYbOeqSWVhUC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=elvis+and+gladys+jewish&source=bl&ots=7plM04vHyD&sig=EGfvH_vQs1h0zheRI9965N5sQN0&hl=en&ei=H1a5TYVGzrGFB-C-iIoP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=elvis%20and%20gladys%20jewish&f=false Quote "According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish" Another, http://www.elvis.com.au/presley/biography/elvis_presley_family_history.shtml Quote "White Mansell married Martha Tackett, a neighbour in Saltillo. Of note is the religion, Jewish, of Martha's mother, Nancy Tackett. It was unusual to find a Jewish settler in Mississippi during this time." Family tree - http://www.elvispresleynews.com/images/ElvisFamilyTree.jpg--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 12:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC) More again - http://www.urigeller.com/Elvis/07/Elvis07.htm Quote "Elvis Presley had confided to his close friend and spiritual advisor, Larry Geller, that he was Jewish. His great grandmother Martha Tacket was Jewish and Jewish law follows the mother's geneaology which makes Elvis Jewish. His mother Gladys did not disclose the fact to Vernon Presley as the South was very anti-semitic in those days. However, she wanted Elvis to go to a school that had mainly Jewish children, wanting him to mix with Jews and hopefully get a better education as she knew Jews were very concerned about education for their children. Many of Elvis' school friends were Jewish and remained friends when he became famous, such as George Klein, Marty Lacker and Alan Fortas. Elvis put a 'Star of David' on his mother's grave. When Elvis and Glady's bodies were removed from their original place of burial at Forest Hills Cemeteries in Memphis to Graceland Vernon removed the Star of David from Glady's grave. It was believed Elvis' body would be kidnapped from his original resting place so he and his mother's graves were moved secretly one night. Could it have been a commercial decision so they could charge fans to visit Graceland and view Elvis' grave I wonder? Elvis often wore a "Chai" on his neck, the Jewish symbol for "Life" and when asked why he wore a Chai and a Cross he answered, "I do not want to miss getting into heaven on a technicality". Elaine Dundy uncovered Elvis' Jewish lineage in her research for her book, "Elvis and Gladys". Elvis owned several watches with the Star of David as well as items of jewellery."--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 12:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Can somebody tell me why I'm getting a message saying "last change" final warning? I've NOT edited the Wikipedia page of Elvis since being warned, I am simply discussing and putting my point across on here not on the main page.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 14:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC) Presley was interested in spiritual matters and read a great deal, and talked to a diverse bunch of people, about his 'quest' for the meaning of life. He was interested in many religions, the occult, mysticism and the paranormal. He also wore an ankh symbol, as well crosses, chais, etc. (according to Linda Thompson). May be he thought he was descended from Rameses II... Someone, probably with a vested interest, once tried to argue he was about to convert to Mormonism just before he died. I grew bored ages ago about whether Presley was of German, Irish, Inuit, or Venusian descent, as any 'facts' regarding these matters have little bearing on his career and achievements, and this article is necessarily limited in what it can cover. We need reference to the places the family worshipped, where he learnt to sing or hear musicians, what religious music he listened on radio, etc, etc. This is the real relevant stuff, and we have it in the article. Scrap if you like about his Jewishness but if anything concrete is decided (is anyone going to mention whether he was circumcised?), please bury it really deep, in a footnote. Rikstar409 20:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC) I think we're close to wrapping this up. Aside from citing, for the umpteenth time, Dundy--whose information is already addressed in a footnote--Geordie has ignored my advice to educate himself on our WP:Verifiability policy and dumped another slew of "sources" that clearly fall below our standards. He also seems very confused about books--how to properly cite them and how to, you know, read them. Oh well. DocKino (talk) 21:26, 28 April 2011 (UTC) How can I tell you which page in a book it says he was Jewish when I do not own the book? You are still ignoring me, the Scottish and German origin is book referenced, tell me how the book is a "reliable source"--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 11:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Read Wikipedia:Citing sources. If you haven't got access to a book, you shouldn't be citing it as a source. You don't need to own it, but you do need to have read it. Haven't you got access to a library? As for what is considered a reliable source, see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. I'd also point out that we have a source (Nate Bloom - see note in article) who has done research into the question on Elvis's 'Jewishness', and described it as a "tall tale". On that basis, we cannot possibly state that Elvis was Jewish, but only that he was claimed to be, and that this has been contested. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC) How has he done research into it? I see no sources disproving that he wasn't Jewish? Secondly, I provided a link to a book which states he was Jewish and furthermore he himself knew he had Jewish ancestry and why do you think his middle name is Aaron? It kind of makes sense.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Working backwards: "It kind of makes sense" is not the sort of "reasoning" that has any place in an encyclopedia. We deal in facts here. Lots of devout Christians give their children Old Testament names. It appears you hadn't noticed, but Christians consider the Hebrew Scriptures part of their Holy Bible, thus the name "Old Testament." Think about it. You might see the light. You state "he himself knew he had Jewish ancestry" as if it is a fact. It is not. It is precisely the point of contention. Even the strongest source for the case that he had some Jewish ancestry--Dundy--never states that he knew he had Jewish ancestry. You yourself have never provided one single reliable source stating that Presley "knew" he had "Jewish ancestry." This remains no more than your personal article of faith. You make the usual beginner's error of demanding sources that prove a negative ("I see no sources disproving that he wasn't Jewish?"). But in fact, we do have syndicated columnist Nate Bloom, who qualifies as a reliable source, directly debunking the claim that appears in Dundy. And, if you are truly interested in Elvis, you should read the authoritative biography by Peter Guralnick, who reports no evidence that Presley was Jewish or aware of any Jewish ancestry. He does describe a young Elvis's employment as a Shabbos goy, which we've tried to explain to you means he was a gentile, not a Jew. And--guess what!--Guralnick himself is Jewish!! Hard to believe he'd try to bury Presley's Jewishness if it were a fact. Guess what, Geordie, it probably ain't a fact at all. "Has he done research into it"? You seem to be referring to Bloom (another Jew!) here. Yes, Bloom attests, with convincing detail, that he has done research into the question. That's exactly why we cite him. Finally--or firstly--you keep repeating yourself over...and over...and over...and you become less, not more, convincing with each repetition. If you have nothing new and substantive to add, it's time for you to move on to a different subject. DocKino (talk) 18:17, 29 April 2011 (UTC) GeordieWikiEditor, you have been given links to the appropriate Wikipedia policy regarding sourcing, citation etc. You have been told that you cannot use your own 'research' (actually, just guesswork) in the article. Nothing you have provided is of any relevance according to the standards required. In consequence, unless you can provide properly cited references from reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia, there is nothing further to be said on this topic, and I suggest you consider the subject closed. This is not a forum for general debate about Elvis, and I'd ask you not to continue posting comments which are of no relevance. Note that such comments may be deleted as off-topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2011 (UTC) Why would a website dedicated to Elvis make it up? http://www.elvispresleynews.com/JewishElvis.html Why would so many books say he was Jewish not just speculated but discovered it and was just told not to mention it?--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

There is much evidence that Elvis had deep Jewish family roots

Elvis's personal development must have been governed by some form of Jewish tradition, and this certainly would have considerable relevance for the singer's biography. Let’s stick close to the reliable sources, i.e. the material that has been published in books on Elvis:

"Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70.

Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21.

"Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3.

"Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31.

As ElvisFan1981 has pointed out, there are images of Elvis wearing the Star of David on stage. Gladys's original grave did indeed have a Star of David, and the grave was designed by Elvis himself with knowledge of his mother's Jewish roots in mind. Furthermore, there are several Star of David watches which Elvis designed with Marty Lacker and had manufactured by Harry Levitch Jewelers of Memphis. For one of these watches, see [5]. All this suggests that Elvis was deeply influenced by some form of Jewish tradition. The only person explicitly claiming that Presley was not Jewish is Jewish columnist Nate Bloom on a webpage entitled "The Jews Who Wrote Christmas Songs". See [6]. Bloom's only argument is his claim that a detailed check of available records (which records?) shows that Elvis's maternal ancestor was not Jewish and that he spoke to the daughter of the rabbi who allegedly said that her mother told her that Gladys never said a word about any Jewish ancestor. Interestingly, Bloom doesn't know the family name of the said rabbi, and he doesn't even know Larry Geller’s statement that Gladys told Elvis that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish. This means that Bloom's remarks are poorly sourced. To conclude: Bloom’s personal opinion published on an obscure webpage isn’t a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards, whereas the other books cited above are reliable sources. Onefortyone (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you have chosen to continue the debate here, Onefortyone, rather than attempting to yet again insert this claim into peripheral articles - the debate clearly needs to be resolved here.

With regard to the sources you cite, I'd start by pointing out that Wikipedia does not need to accept the definition of 'Jewishness' as defined by certain followers of that faith. Even if it could be proven that he was 'Jewish' on the matrilineal line, that would not necessarily be acceptable per Wikipedia policy. Regarding the 'Star of David' etc, this falls under WP:OR, and is thus irrelevant. As for the merits of Bloom's research, I'll not comment, beyond pointing out that Bloom seems to have at least done some, rather than trawling for 'proof' in all sorts of obscure places. If you have evidence from reliable sources that Nate Bloom was wrong, let us have it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I have not yet seen that Bloom's remarks on the said, rather obscure webpage have been earnestly discussed by Elvis biographers. Onefortyone (talk) 02:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

True. But then our remarks on this obscure webpage haven't been either. So your WP:OR is of no consequence. Either find a reliable souce that states that Elvis was Jewish, and explains why, or drop the argument. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is an additional source: "On a gold chain around his neck, Elvis wore a gold Star of David and a crucifix." See Susan Doll, Elvis for Dummies (2009). This means that he was well aware both of his Jewish and Christian roots. Onefortyone (talk) 02:55, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

That's original research on your part. Maybe he just liked the way they looked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:01, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion. What about the other sources I have provided? Onefortyone (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm saying that wearing jewelry that is typically connected with a religion is not evidence that they are part of that religion. To claim they are, is original research. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:09, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

According to Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen and Dan Sokolovic, "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. ... He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See above. This is not original research. Onefortyone (talk) 03:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of other concerns, "identification with the Jews" doesn't make you Jewish - it makes you sympathetic to the situation of Jews (cosider the difference between 'with' and 'as') - and yes, that is original research, in any case. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is another reliable source:

"The King of Rock 'n' Roll officially qualifies as a Member of the Tribe. Technically speaking, Elvis was a Yid. … The King actually knew about his Jewish roots, but his parents reportedly suggested he hide them."

See Lisa Alcalay Klug, Cool Jew: The Ultimate Guide for Every Member of the Tribe (2008), p.14. This is not original research. Onefortyone (talk) 03:28, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

"Technically speaking, Elvis was a Yid". Charming. But Does 'technically speaking' mean that Elvis was Jewish, or that some people like to claim he was? What his parent's 'reportedly' said is hardly evidence either... That isn't original research, but it isn't evidence, either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The source clearly says, "The King of Rock 'n' Roll officially qualifies as a Member of the Tribe." The Wikipedia article should simply cite what the sources say, and let the reader decide. Or do you have problems with the fact that Elvis had Jewish roots? Onefortyone (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Their trying to claim Elvis as one of their own don't make it so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. The 'tribe' are in no position to reliably assert who is or isn't a member - in case you hadn't noticed, there is no universal definition of 'Jewishness', even amongst those who claim to be Jews. If Elvis considered himself Jewish, then maybe it deserves mention in his biography. If others consider him to be Jewish, it is of little relevance. The article is about Elvis, not about ethnicity, theology, or any other abstraction. It is quite possible that Elvis had some Jewish ancestry - statistically speaking, most people with European ancestors probably do, never mind anywhere else. To state that he was Jewish requires more preciseness - what does this mean? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources determine the content of an article. If reliable sources support that Elvis Presley identified with Jews, that would be something that could find its way into an article.

The exact wording would obviously be important here, as the sources that have been presented here do not indicate anything like a serious commitment to or understanding of Judaism or Jews. Wording would have to accurately reflect the sparse notion that reliable sources reflect.

It doesn't seem that reliable sources say that Presley was Jewish, so that could not be said. His Christian orientation could be noted in the same sentence or in adjoining sentences.

The article doesn't have to be completely mute on Presley's interest in Jews and Jewish symbols. Reliable sources apparently comment on this, establishing for our purposes that there were dalliances with Jewish identity on the part of Presley, though it does not seem that reliable sources would support a statement that he was Jewish.

Obviously we would want to steer clear of jumping to conclusions (original research) that symbols worn as jewelry establish Jewish identity. I think that would require support in wording from reliable sources. Bus stop (talk) 04:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I think a few people have a problem with the fact that Elvis had Jewish ancestry and he was well aware of it that is not original search it is confirmed documented sources that are in books and all sorts. It doesn't matter if he practiced Christianity he was still Jewish and you need to accept that, it is well worth pursuing this because it is a must it is what made Elvis who he was and by adding it into the article provides another part of his ancestry.

All of them sources a person provided earlier on would be counted as reliable sources - check the Scottish and German origins of Elvis the references are books, why is this any different? It is not and I honestly don't know why I was final warned when my edit was clearly backed up and even more now someone has even found more reliable sources. It does not matter YOUR opinion of who is a Jew and who is not, we go by Judaism and the ethnic side of things and by both definitions he would have been considered a Jew/Jewish.--GeordieWikiEditor (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)No he would not. Even if the source were reliable (which it is not), it would not show that Elvis was a Jew. Under Jewish religious law, a Jew is someone whose mother was a Jew, or who has undergone a conversion. Not someone whose great great grandmother may, according to one source, have been a Jew. That interpretation would be even more flexible even than Israel's Law of Return, which for the purpose of immigration accords automatic citizenship to a Jew, or the child or grandchild of a Jew. Elvis was quite simply not a Jew. Full stop. Nor, for that matter, are many of the others to whom you repeatedly ascribe a Jewish identity. Why this obsession with labelling people as Jews? RolandR (talk) 22:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can provide evidence from sources that meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliability which unequivocally state that Elvis was Jewish, and explain the grounds on which they base this, this discussion is closed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Andy are you just acting ignorant here?

"Elvis' confusion and secrecy about Judaism came from his upbringing. When he was quite young Gladys told him that her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell, was Jewish." See Larry Geller, If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story (1989), p. 69-70. Martha "was the daughter of Abner and Nancy J. Burdine Tackett and ... Nancy is of particular interest to us. According to Elvis' third cousin Oscar Tackett (who shared the same ancestors, Abner and Nancy), Nancy was Jewish. ... Again, names often tell a story and two of Martha's brothers were given Jewish names, Sidney and Jerome." See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys (2004), p.21. "Geller claims in his book [If I Can Dream: Elvis' Own Story] that Gladys told Elvis she had Jewish ancestors, starting with her maternal grandmother, Martha Tackett Mansell. Which is pretty close to what Elaine Dundy says in her book." See Alanna Nash, Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia (1995), p.2-3. "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31.

Is perfectly reliable sources and enough evidence to face the fact he was Jewish.--Jimmyson88 (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC) - Comments by blocked sockpuppet of User:GeordieWikiEditor struck out. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not. It doesn't say he was Jewish. It says an ancestor was Jewish. "identification with" is not the same as "indentified as". Yworo (talk) 02:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Compromise

What about this version:

Although he did not practice the religion, Elvis seems to have had some halachically Jewish family roots, because of his grandmother's Jewish heritage. He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality." He also wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. Elvis's identification with the Jews seems to have continued throughout his life. He had the Star of David engraved onto his mother's tombstone, and when the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction.

This version explicitly says that Elvis did not practice the Jewish religion, but it mentions his identification with the Jews. I think this information should not be omitted. Onefortyone (talk) 00:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Way to troll it, good buddy! Sounds like the perfect foundation for a new, crucial article: Elvis Presley (SEEMS to Have Had Some) Jewishness. Don't you dare omit that article from Wikipedia. DocKino (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A clearer example of WP:SYN could hardly be found. To who does it 'seem', according to the evidence presented that Elvis had some Jewish roots? Why - OneFortyOne of course! In any case, we don't fill the article with every minor speculative detail about what 'seems' to be (possibly) true, even if sourced. Troll elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

What about this version:

Although he did not practice the Jewish religion, some friends and biographers say that Elvis had not only Christian but also Jewish family roots, because of his maternal grandmother's Jewish heritage. He was known to wear both a cross and a Star of David around his neck, explaining that he "wouldn't want to be kept out of Heaven on a technicality." He also wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace. According to Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen and Dan Sokolovic, "Elvis's identification with the Jews" continued throughout his life. He had the Star of David engraved onto his mother's tombstone, and when the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction.

All this is well sourced and not an example of WP:SYN. Wikipedia cites what the sources say, the reader is well informed about the topic. Onefortyone (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

It is still probably synthesis (read WP:SYN: "If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources"), but in any case, it is all speculative. Unless you can find evidence that Elvis's 'Jewish' connections have been meaningfully discussed in mainstream sources, I cannot see any point in including this. The fact of the matter is that if we wanted to include everything that has been speculated about in relation to Elvis, we could probably quadruple the size of the present article within a week or two. This article isn't intended to cover every possible aspect of Elvis's life, but rather the ones which one would expect to find in a mainstream encyclopaedia - which excludes minor 'maybe' issues that have hardly been commented on. Ultimately, there are only two 'factual' questions involved: did Elvis have any Jewish ancestry, and if he did, did this affect his life in any meaningful way. In both cases, the only answer anyone can possibly give is 'maybe' - not exactly Earth-shattering information. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not understand your argument. Elvis's 'Jewish' connections have been meaningfully discussed in a recent Elvis biography. It says, "Elvis's identification with the Jews continued once he became a star. When the Jewish Community Center was built in Memphis during the 1960s, he donated money for its construction. He had a Star of David engraved onto Gladys's tombstone, and often wore a Chai, the Jewish symbol for life, on a necklace." See Glen Jeansonne, David Luhrssen, Dan Sokolovic, Elvis Presley, Reluctant Rebel: His Life and Our Times (2011), p.31. Mainstream sources by Elaine Dundy and Alanna Nash mention his Jewish family roots. These are the facts. Onefortyone (talk) 01:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why 141 doesn't seem to understand, or chooses not to comment on, the following: "The fact of the matter is that if we wanted to include everything that has been speculated about in relation to Elvis, we could probably quadruple the size of the present article within a week or two. This article isn't intended to cover every possible aspect of Elvis's life, but rather the ones which one would expect to find in a mainstream encyclopaedia - which excludes minor 'maybe' issues that have hardly been commented on." It is not unknown for 141 to ignore salient points in arguments against him - one of the reasons that accusations of trolling have been made against him. The fact is Presley 'identified with' a great many religions, spiritual beliefs, philosophies (like those behind his beloved karate), etc., and you could write a whole article on it all. But you can't cherry pick bits of it when they will not really tell the full extent of his interests. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 05:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Systemloc, 10 July 2011

The page is missing dates, and, in many cases, dates do not have the years. For example, the first Milton Berle appearance is listed as "April 3". It should also have the year, 1956. The July 17 date of his first appearance, at the Bon Air club, should include the year, 1954, as well.

Systemloc (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. FREYWA 08:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Are not the dates already referenced in the article and citations listed? Systemloc is simply asking for the dates of some events to be clarified. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:39, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

things people may not know about elvis

some people say elvis had an unusual scent but his wife disagreed. elvis liked lima beans he rode horses in his free time he ate bananas every tuesday elvis was a horrible student he had a hairy wrist he didnt like facial hair he he liked walnuts he twitched he didnt know how to ride a bike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.6.3 (talk) 05:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I lost my father in March this year and I miss him terribly. I read your comments tonight and I think to myself, your what my Uncle would call as being a non event dear!--Jaye9 (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Elvis's claimed illigitimate daughter Deborah Presley

the courts had judged that there was merit to the claim that Deborah Presley Brando was the illegitimate daughter of Elvis. http://preslaw.blogspot.com/2009/11/another-temp-post.html

--99.51.144.55 (talk) 20:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

http://elvisdecoded.blogspot.com/2007/06/wanted-elvis-and-my-mothers-marriage.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.144.55 (talk) 20:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not base articles on the content of blogs. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

So sorry, is the following considered a blog or public records...

Extended content

Court of Appeals of Tennessee, Western Section, at Jackson. Deborah Delaine PRESLEY, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. Joseph A. HANKS, Priscilla B. Presley and National Bank of Commerce, co-executors of the Estate of Elvis A. Presley, Deceased, Defendants-Appellees. 782 S.W.2d 482 July 20, 1989. Application for Permission to Appeal Denied by Supreme Court Nov. 6, 1989. CRAWFORD, Judge. This is a will construction case. On February 18, 1988, appellant, Deborah Delaine Presley, acting pro se, filed a petition in the probate court entitled "Petition To Determine Heirship And For Share Of Estate Under Will Heretofore Admitted To Probate." In essence, the petition alleges that petitioner is the illegitimate daughter of the testator, Elvis A. Presley, and pursuant to the terms and provisions of his Last Will and Testament, she, as his daughter, is entitled to a share of the estate. The Answer of the co-executors, Joseph A. Hanks, Priscilla B. Presley and National Bank of Commerce, filed September 23, 1988, denies the material allegations of the complaint and joins issue thereon. The Answer specifically avers that the decedent's will expressly excludes petitioner as a beneficiary. On the same date, the co-executors also filed a motion for summary judgment asserting that the express language of Elvis Presley's will manifests his intent "that only those children born in lawful wedlock to Mr. Presley are entitled to inherit from and through him, and that Lisa Marie Presley" is the only such child. The motion for summary judgment was supported by the affidavit of Priscilla B. Presley and D. Beecher Smith, II. The Presley affidavit asserts that Elvis Presley was married only once in his lifetime and that was to the affiant. The affidavit further states that the daughter of the affiant and Elvis Presley, Lisa Marie Presley, is the only child born to Elvis Presley during a lawful marriage. Smith's affidavit states that pursuant to Elvis Presley's instructions, he prepared the Last Will and Testament in question. Affiant further states that Mr. Presley had previously successfully defended a paternity suit in California and was cognizant of the need to specify in his will those he wanted to take thereunder. Appellant's affidavit, filed November 7, 1988 in response to the motion for summary judgment and supporting affidavits, states that she received a late notice of the filing of the summary judgment motion, and then on November 3, 1988, received a letter from the estate's attorney notifying her of the time for a hearing on the motion for summary judgment. She further avers in her affidavit that she has been unsuccessful in obtaining an attorney to represent her, and that she needs additional time before the hearing on the motion for summary judgment in order to obtain an attorney. Appellant also filed affidavits from her mother, Barbara Jean Young, and from Gene Smith, purportedly Elvis Presley's first cousin. These affidavits, in general, establish the relationship between appellant's mother and Elvis Presley in support of appellant's claim that Mr. Presley was her father. The memorandum opinion of the probate judge filed November 29, 1988 recites that it is premised on "the sworn petition of Deborah Delaine Presley; Estate's Motion for Summary Judgment, Answer and Memorandum in Support thereof; argument of Counsel for the Estate and argument of Petitioner, who was not represented by Counsel; and the entire record in this Cause." Basically, the probate judge found that appellant failed to establish that she was the daughter of Elvis Presley, and further construed the Presley will to exclude illegitimate children as beneficiaries. The memorandum opinion was incorporated in the order entered November 29, 1988, which granted summary judgment and dismissed appellant's petition. On December 29, 1988, appellant, through counsel, filed a "Motion to Reconsider Order Granting Summary Judgment." A hearing was held on this motion December 30, 1988, and an order was entered the same date denying the motion, resulting in this appeal. Appellant presents six issues for review which we will now consider. Issues I, II and III will be considered together. These issues, as set forth by appellant in her brief, are as follows: I. Whether the court erred in failing to set aside the summary judgment granted to the estate against the petitioner, Deborah Delaine Presley, in order to allow the petitioner to have legal counsel represent her? II. Whether the court's memorandum opinion and order granting summary judgment to the estate was overly broad and encompassed issues not presented to the court by the estate's motion for summary judgment? III. Whether the court's finding that it was legally impossible for appellant to claim any interest in the testator's estate due to the fact that appellant could not be legitimated was clearly erroneous? Appellant asserts that the probate judge should have continued the hearing on the motion for summary judgment to allow her to obtain counsel. The record does not reflect when the hearing on the motion was held, but the record does reflect that appellant filed her petition on February 18, 1988, the motion for summary judgment was filed September 23, 1988, and the order granting summary judgment was entered November 29, 1988. There is no absolute right to counsel in a civil trial. Barish v. Metropolitan Gov't., 627 S.W.2d 953 (Tenn.App.1981). The trial court has broad discretion in the grant or denial of a continuance and the trial judge's decision will not be set aside unless there is a clear showing of abuse. Barish, supra. From the record before us, we can find no such clear showing of abuse. However, as a practical matter, it appears that appellant's real complaint regarding these issues is the scope of the probate judge's findings in his memorandum opinion. Appellant's counsel argued in the motion to reconsider, and argues in this court that the probate judge's finding that appellant is not the daughter of Elvis Presley was not an issue to be decided on the motion for summary judgment. We agree with appellant's counsel. The motion for summary judgment, as well as the memorandum in support of the motion for summary judgment, explicitly established that the only question presented by the motion for summary judgment "is whether Elvis Presley's Will makes provision for inheritance by an individual who contends she is the illegitimate daughter of Mr. Presley." Furthermore, the affidavits supporting the motion for summary judgment did not in any way dispute appellant's claim in her petition that she was Mr. Presley's illegitimate daughter. Appellees' entire thrust on their motion for summary judgment was that a proper construction of the will reveals that an illegitimate child is not a beneficiary. The probate judge stated in his memorandum opinion: When a motion for summary judgment is made, an adverse party may not rest upon the mere allegations of her pleading, but her response, by affidavits or otherwise, must set forth specific facts showing that there is a genuine issue for trial. If she does not so respond, summary judgment, if appropriate, shall be entered against her. (emphasis in original). We disagree with the probate judge's statement of the law. The controlling authority, Rule 56.05, Tennessee Rules of Civil Procedure, states as follows: 56.05. Form of Affidavits--Further Testimony--Defense Requited.-- Supporting and opposing affidavits shall be made on personal knowledge, shall set forth such facts as would be admissible in evidence, and shall show affirmatively that the affiant is competent to testify to the matters stated therein. Sworn or certified copies of all papers or parts thereof referred to in an affidavit shall be attached thereto or served therewith. The court may permit affidavits to be supplemented or opposed by depositions, answers to interrogatories, or further affidavits. When a motion for summary judgment is made and supported as provided in this rule, an adverse party may not rest upon the mere allegations or denials of his pleading, but his response, by affidavits or as otherwise provided in this rule, must set forth specific facts showing that there is a genuine issue for trial. If he does not so respond, summary judgment, if appropriate, shall be entered against him. (emphasis added). As previously noted, the motion for summary judgment filed by the co-executors of the Presley estate was not supported by any sworn proof concerning the parentage of appellant. Accordingly, appellant was under no obligation to set forth any specific facts in response thereto "showing that there is a genuine issue for trial." The record is clear that appellees, for the purpose of the summary judgment motion only, conceded that appellant is the testator's illegitimate daughter. We also note that there is nothing in the appellees' supporting affidavits which would require appellant to set forth any specific fact concerning her ability to be declared the legitimate child of Elvis Presley. Therefore, the finding of the probate judge that appellant is not the daughter of Elvis Presley, and the finding of the probate judge that it is legally impossible for appellant to be determined a legitimate child of Elvis Presley should be vacated, and the order modified accordingly. The next issue for review which encompasses appellant's Issues IV and V is whether the probate judge erred in his construction of the decedent's will. The dispute in this case involves Item IV of Elvis Presley's will which is as follows: ITEM IV Residuary Trust After payment of all debts, expenses and taxes as directed under ITEM I hereof, I give, devise, and bequeath all the rest, residue, and remainder of my estate, including all lapsed legacies and devises, and any property over which I have a power of appointment, to my Trustee, hereinafter named, in trust for the following purposes: (a) The Trustee is directed to take, hold, manage, invest and reinvest the corpus of the trust and to collect the income therefrom in accordance with the rights, powers, duties, authority and discretion hereinafter set forth. The Trustee is directed to pay all the expenses, taxes and costs incurred in the management of the trust estate out of the income thereof. (b) After payment of all expenses, taxes and costs incurred in the management of the trust estate, the Trustee is authorized to accumulate the net income or to pay or apply so much of the net income and such portion of the principal at any time and from time to time for the health, education, support, comfortable maintenance and welfare of: (1) my daughter, Lisa Marie Presley, and any other lawful issue I might have, (2) my grandmother, Minnie Mae Presley, (3) my father, Vernon E. Presley, and (4) such other relatives of mine living at the time of my death who in the absolute discretion of my Trustee are in need of emergency assistance for any of the above mentioned purposes and the Trustee is able to make such distribution without affecting the ability of the trust to meet the present needs of the first three numbered categories of beneficiaries herein mentioned or to meet the reasonably expected future needs of the first three classes of beneficiaries herein mentioned. Any decision of the Trustee as to whether or not distribution shall be made, and also as to the amount of such distribution, to any of the persons described hereunder shall be final and conclusive and not subject to question by any legatee or beneficiary hereunder. (c) Upon the death of my father, Vernon E. Presley, the Trustee is instructed to make no further distributions to the fourth category of beneficiaries and such beneficiaries shall cease to have any interest whatsoever in this trust. (d) Upon the death of both my said father and my said grandmother, the Trustee is directed to divide the Residuary Trust into separate and equal trusts, creating one such equal trust for each of my lawful children then surviving and one such equal trust for the living issue collectively, if any, of any deceased child of mine. The share, if any, for the issue of any such deceased child, shall immediately vest in such issue in equal shares but shall be subject to the provisions of ITEM V herein. Separate books and records shall be kept for each trust, but it shall not be necessary that a physical division of the assets be made as to each trust. The Trustee may from time to time distribute the whole or any part of the net income or principal from each of the aforesaid trusts as the Trustee, in its uncontrolled discretion, considers necessary or desirable to provide for the comfortable support, education, maintenance, benefit and general welfare of each of my children. Such distributions may be made directly to such beneficiary or to any person standing in the place of a parent or to the guardian of the person of such beneficiary and without responsibility on my Trustee to see to the application of any such distributions and in making such distributions, the Trustee shall take into account all other sources of funds known by the Trustee to be available for each respective beneficiary for such purpose. (e) As each of my respective children attains the age of twenty-five (25) years and provided that both my father and grandmother then be deceased, the trust created hereunder for such child shall terminate, and all the remainder of the assets then contained in said trust shall be distributed to such child so attaining the age of twenty-five (25) years outright and free of further trust. (f) If any of my children for whose benefit a trust has been created hereunder should die before attaining the age of twenty-five (25) years, then the trust created for such child shall terminate on his death, and all remaining assets then contained in said trust shall be distributed outright and free of further trust and in equal shares to the surviving issue of such deceased child but subject to the provisions of ITEM V herein; but if there be no such surviving issue, then to the brothers and sisters of such deceased child in equal shares, the issue of any other deceased child being entitled collectively to their deceased parent's share. Nevertheless, if any distribution otherwise becomes payable outright and free of trust under the provisions of this paragraph (f) of this ITEM IV of my will to a beneficiary for whom the Trustee is then administering a trust for the benefit of such beneficiary under the provisions of this last will and testament, such distribution shall not be paid outright to such beneficiary but shall be added to and become a part of the trust so being administered for such beneficiary by the Trustee. Item IV(b) directs the Trustee to pay for the support and maintenance of "(1) my daughter, Lisa Marie Presley, and any other lawful issue I might have." (emphasis supplied). Paragraph (d) of Item IV provides for a division of the residuary trust by creating a separate and equal trust for "each of my lawful children." (emphasis supplied). Paragraph (c) of Item IV provides for distribution of the assets of the respective trusts "as each of my respective children attains the age of twenty-five (25) years." (emphasis supplied). The trial court held that by the use of the foregoing language, the decedent intended only for "Lisa Marie Presley or other legitimate children to take under the will." The Probate Court of Shelby County has concurrent jurisdiction with the Chancery Court to construe and interpret wills. 1985 Tenn.Priv. Acts ch. 28. The construction of a will is a question of law for the court and will construction cases are uniquely suited to the summary judgment procedure because they generally involve legal issues only. Estate of Robison v. Carter, 701 S.W.2d 218 (Tenn.App.1985). As we previously noted, for the purposes of the motion for summary judgment only, it is conceded that the appellant is Elvis Presley's illegitimate daughter. The cardinal rule in construction of all wills is that the court shall seek to discover the intention of the testator and give effect to it unless it contravenes some rule of law or public policy. Third Nat'l Bank in Nashville v. First American Nat'l Bank of Nashville, 596 S.W.2d 824 (Tenn.1980). The testator's intention is to be ascertained from the particular words used in the will itself, from the context in which those words are used, and from the general scope and purposes of the will, read in the light of the surrounding and attending circumstances. Moore v. Neely, 212 Tenn. 496, 502-03, 370 S.W.2d 537, 540 (1963); Fisher v. Malmo, 650 S.W.2d 43 (Tenn.App.1983). Every will is sui generis and therefore reference to other cases involving the testator's intention is usually of little assistance. See Burton v. Kinney, 191 Tenn. 1, 231 S.W.2d 356 (1950); Marsh v. Porch, 35 Tenn.App. 62, 242 S.W.2d 691 (1951). A will should be construed to speak as of the date of the testator's death. T.C.A. § 32-3- 101 (1984). In construing a will it is necessary to look to the entire will and the testator's intention must be determined from what he has written and not from what it is supposed he intended. Burdick v. Gillpin, 205 Tenn. 94, 103, 325 S.W.2d 547, 551 (1959); see First American Nat'l Bank v. DeWitt, 511 S.W.2d 698, 706 (Tenn.1972). Appellant contends in her brief: The word "lawful" is merely a modifier of the word "issue" and merely explains that issue eligible to take under a will must be issue who are lawfully able to share in an estate under a will. It has no correlation to the term "legitimate." Indeed if used with the word "issue," the term "legitimate" would make little sense. "Legitimate" is generally perceived as applying only to children. However, the term "issue," is discussed is much broader than the term children. The idea that "legitimate issue" would mean grandchildren, cousins, etc. who are issue and who are "legitimate" (i.e. were born in wedlock of their parents) would not be sensible.... [t]he courts are to give effect to the testator's use of the word "issue" which is widely definable, then the idea that "lawful" must correlate to mean "legitimate" is insupportable. We cannot agree with the appellant's reasoning. We agree with appellant that generally the word "issue" includes all persons who have descended from a common ancestor and unless the context indicates otherwise means lineal descedents without regard to degree of proximity or remoteness. Burdick at 109, 325 S.W.2d at 554. In Third National Bank v. Noel, 183 Tenn. 349, 192 S.W.2d 825 (1946), our Supreme Court stated: The rule in this state, as announced in Ridley v. McPherson, 100 Tenn. 402, 43 S.W. 772, is that issue includes all persons who have descended from a common ancestor; that unless controlled by the context, it means lineal descendant without regard to degree of proximity or remoteness from the original stock or source. This is in accordance with the great weight of authority as shown by many cases collected in notes, 2 A.L.R. 918, and 5 A.L.R. 195. That the rule still prevails in this jurisdiction, unless controlled by the context, is recognized in the later cases of Lea v. Lea, 145 Tenn. 693, 237 S.W. 59, and White v. Kane, 178 Tenn. 469, 159 S.W.2d 92. In the two later cases the Court found the context required that a different meaning be given to the word. While we recognize that such an interpretation of the word issue is not much favored by the courts and will not be adopted if there is a faint glimpse of a contrary intention in the instrument involved, nevertheless what may be called the technical definition of issue is now a rule of property and is to be accepted unless we can perceive in the instrument using the word some glimpse of a contrary design. (emphasis in original). Id. at 358-59, 192 S.W.2d at 828-29. In the case before us, we must look at the context in which the word "issue" was used to determine if there is "some glimpse of a contrary design." Id. at 359, 192 S.W.2d at 829. In Item IV(b), the testator provides for "(1) my daughter, Lisa Marie Presley, and any other lawful issue I might have." Obviously, he is relating "other lawful issue" in the same class with his daughter. This becomes even more evident when we consider Item IV(d) providing for the division of the corpus of the trust. The testator explicitly provides for "one such equal trust for each of my lawful children then surviving and one such equal trust for the living issue collectively, if any, of any deceased child of mine." The word "issue" is ordinarily construed to mean "children" where it has been used interchangeably by the testator with the word children. 80 Am.Jur.2d Wills, § 1220 (1975). See Lea v. Lea, 145 Tenn. 693, 237 S.W. 59 (1921); White v. Kane, 178 Tenn. 469, 159 S.W.2d 92 (1942). In the case before us, the testator, in dealing with support and maintenance, equates other "lawful issue" with reference to his daughter. In light of his division of the corpus of the trust among his lawful children, it appears that the testator is using the term "issue" in Paragraph IV(b) as meaning children. The will also uses the explicit term "lawful" when describing the children that will take under the will. Appellant asserts that this merely means that they must prove that they are children of the testator. We disagree. In Decker v. Meriwether, 708 S.W.2d 390 (Tenn.App.1985), one of the issues before the Court was whether an illegitimate child could take under a will provision providing for property to pass to her father's lawful issue. This court held that in view of the words used and the surrounding circumstances, it was the testator's intent that only legitimate children of the father would take under the provision of the testator's will. In the case before us, it is uncontroverted that Elvis Presley had been involved in a paternity case and was cognizant of claims placed against him for children born out of wedlock. In Item IV, paragraph (b), the testator makes provision for the support and maintenance of his family, vesting the trustee with absolute discretion in the manner and amount to be used for that purpose. At the time the will was executed, the testator had one child of his only marriage. The provision for the child is coupled with the provision "and any other lawful issue I might have." (emphasis supplied) There was no doubt in Mr. Presley's mind that Lisa Marie was his issue, nor was there any doubt on his part that she was born in lawful wedlock. With this knowledge of the status of his daughter, he explicitly describes the other objects of his bounty as "any other lawful issue." Moreover, the clause provides for issue the testator "might have" indicating his intent to provide for those coming into existence after the execution of the will. The intent of the testator to provide for only legitimate children becomes even more clear when we consider his disposition of the corpus of the trust. Here again, he utilizes the descriptive word "lawful" when referring to his children who should receive his bounty. A will should be construed to give effect to every word and clause contained therein. Bell v. Shannon, 212 Tenn. 28, 367 S.W.2d 761 (1963). Unless we disregard and give no meaning to the word "lawful," we are compelled to believe that the word was used to denote those born in lawful wedlock. Appellant's argument that the word "lawful" has to do with a determination of who might qualify as "issue" of the testator is not persuasive. The determination of who is or who is not an "issue" and a determination of who is or who is not a child can be made without any reference to the legal marital status of the parents of the particular person for which the determination is made. Appellant has not cited, nor has our research revealed, any authority to support appellant's assertion that "lawful issue" as used in the will before us could be construed as establishing the testator's intent to provide for those that can prove their blood relationship under the law. The authorities developed from our research define "lawful issue" to include only legitimate children. See Traders Bank of Kansas City v. Goulding, 711 S.W.2d 872 (Mo.1986) (en banc); Brisbin v. Huntingdon, 128 Iowa 166, 103 N.W. 144 (1905). In Central Trust Company v. Skillin, 154 A.D. 227, 138 N.Y.S. 884 (1912), the Court said: "Lawful" is the antithesis of "unlawful" or "illegitimate." In popular usage, the words "lawful issue" have an accepted meaning. All children are "issue" of their parents, for the operation of natural laws favorable to the procreation and birth of offspring is not affected by the existence or nonexistence of a marital contract. But when this word relating to children is qualified by the adjective "lawful," it is ordinarily understood to mean those begotten and born in lawful wedlock, and none others. United States Trust Co. v. Maxwell [26 Misc. 276, 57 N.Y.S. 53]; Black v. Cartmell, 10 B.Mon. (Ky.) 188, 193; Brisbin v. Huntington, 128 Iowa, 166, 103 N.W. 144, 5 Ann.Cas. 931. At common law the words "child," "son," "issue," even when unqualified by the adjective "lawful," excluded all but the latter class. Cartwright v. Vawdry, 5 Vesey, 530; Earle v. Wilson, 17 Vesey, 528; Wilkinson v. Adam, 1 Vesey & Beames, 422, on page 461; Swaine v. Kennerley, idem, 468; Brisbin v. Huntington, supra; Collins v. Hoxie, 9 Paige, 81; Cromer v. Pinckney, 3 Barb. Ch. 466; Johnstone v. Taliaferro, 107 Ga. 6, 32 S.E. 931, 45 L.R.A. 95; Shearman v. Angel, Bailey, Eq. (S.C.) 351, 23 Am.Dec. 166; Gibson v. McNeely, 11 Ohio St. 131; Doggett v. Mosely, 52 N.C. (7 Jones Law) 587; Thompson v. McDonald, 22 N.C. (2 Dev. & B.Eq.) 463; Heater v. Van Auken, 14 N.J.Eq. 159. 138 N.Y.S. at 886. We note also that even without the use of the qualifying word "lawful," the general rule recognized in Tennessee is that absent clear evidence of contrary intention, words such as "children" in a will are construed to mean legitimate children and not to include illegitimate children. Scales v. Scales, 564 S.W.2d 667 (Tenn.App.1977). This appears to be the majority rule in the United States. See Annotation, Right of Illegitimate Child to Take Under Testamentary Gift to "Children," 34 A.L.R.2d 4, § 5 (1954), and cases cited therein. Accordingly, we construe the will of Elvis Presley to exclude illegitimate children as beneficiaries. The last issue presented for review as stated in appellant's brief is: VI. Whether, in the event this court determines that the term "legal issue" excludes illegitimate issue, such decision would constitute state action to discriminate against illegitimates without any substantial state interest which is violative of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States and therefore unconstitutional. This issue is raised for the first time on appeal. Since it was not raised in the trial court, it cannot be raised in this Court for the first time. Lawrence v. Stanford, 655 S.W.2d 927 (Tenn.1983); Sutton v. Bledsoe, 635 S.W.2d 379 (Tenn.App.1981). In summary, the order of the probate court is modified to vacate the finding of that court that the appellant is not the illegitimate daughter of the testator, and the finding of that court that the appellant could not be legitimated. As modified, the order of the trial court is in all other respects affirmed. Costs of appeal are assessed against the appellant. HIGHERS and SUMMERS (Retired), JJ., concur. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.144.55 (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi again! Is the court findings that Deborah In summary, "the order of the probate court is modified to vacate the finding of that court that the appellant is not the illegitimate daughter of the testator, and the finding of that court that the appellant could not be legitimated holds any merit to you?". again this is based on records of law and courts proceedings not a BLOG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.144.55 (talk) 16:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not copy large amounts of text like that to talk pages - provide a link to the source from where you obtained it. Doing otherwise may constitute a copyright violation, and is unnecessary and intrusive.

I suggest that you also take note of Wikipedia policy regarding sourcing, and on original research. Court records are rarely suitable as sources, since they can be difficult to interpret, and without expert knowledge, one can not ascertain whether the rulings etc are still valid. Unless someone can find reliable sources that discuss the claimed biological relationship between Elvis and Deborah Presley, there can be no question of including the issue in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Recommending a book to add to the "Further Reading" section of the Elvis page.

Recommending a book to add to the "Further Reading" section of the Elvis page.

It's called "Meet Elvis Presley" written and published by Dr Charles Margerison of The Amazing People Club in 2008.

ISBN 978-1-921752-57-5

Lenmar123 (talk) 00:22, 16 August 2011 (UTC)