Talk:Pākehā

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What is "Papa'a"?

I followed at link to this article from Papa'a, but the term isn't mentioned. What does it mean and why does it redirect here? --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 00:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it's the equivalent term in Cook Islands Māori. I've added a brief note about it to the lead section. --Avenue (talk) 02:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More on Pakeha versus New Zealanders

Just back to visit ... Pakeha's not really an ethnic group, more an everyone else ethnic group. It's used for not Maori (Maori meaning normal people and used as the name for the pre-British\European colonists). It usually refers to Whites, and may not be offensive but it's all maybe\maybe not.

As an aside it recently struck me that Pakeha could be used to imply someone is abnormal - maori: normal person, pakeha: not maori (a normal person). I'm White, of British\European extract but while I absolutely categorically reject Pakeha status and am obviously not Maori perhaps like most Americans\Chinese\Indians\Humans I'm maori :) 203.25.1.208 (talk) 00:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you were you trying to express a thought about how the article could be improved, I missed it among the rambling opinions. Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Please see our Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for advice on how to contribute constructively here. --Avenue (talk) 01:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was a belated response to Dave above but it got shifted to a new section. It is a mite rambly I guess given it tacks on a word logic idea to the ethnic discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.25.1.208 (talk) 23:59, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was responding to your claim "Most Kiwi's of course don't have an ethnic background". All New Zealanders (and this includes all New Zealanders who either self-identify or are categorised by others as Pākehā) have an ethnic background. For example, my ethnic background is largely Scottish plus some input from the English periphery. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pakeha is a Maori word

it is not for Pakeha to redefine it to suit themselves. If you really respected Maori culture then you would respect the Maori meaning of Maori words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.227.195 (talk) 11:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While it is certainly a Māori language word, it is also in common use in New Zealand English, and the concept is part on New Zealand culture. It is therefore entirely appropriate for English-language Wikipedia to have an article on the subject.-gadfium 20:23, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand the IP user's frustration - while can be annoying to have speakers of another language tell you what they think a word in your language really means, the reality is that the word is controversial for just that reason, and the Wikipedia article is only reflecting that, however imperfectly. Kahuroa (talk) 20:48, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is there scope for a hat note clarifying this, and maybe linking to mi:Pākehā ? Stuartyeates (talk) 21:37, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think an extra link to mi:Pākehā, besides the existing interlanguage link on the left border, is likely to help many readers. It only gives a brief one-sentence definition for the word, in Maori of course. The lead section does seem a bit misleading, in that it doesn't mention that the word is used in NZ English as well as in Maori. --Avenue (talk) 03:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested new lead: Pākehā is a New Zealand English loanword from the Māori language^[1] for those not of Māori descent or who self-identify as non-Māori. There is longstanding debate over the history of the word. ---- unsigned post by Stuartyeates.

That doesn't quite hit the target imho. The controversy is really about the meaning in Maori - the idea that it is derogatory in Maori. There is no history per se - more like a lack of history, which leaves room for off the wall ideas to develop. Kahuroa (talk) 08:36, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested new lead (2): Pākehā is a New Zealand English loanword from the Māori language^[2] for those not of Māori descent or who self-identify as non-Māori. There is debate over the etymology of the word. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:52, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested new lead (3): Pākehā is the Māori language word from which the New Zealand English loanword Pakeha originated to describe people not of Māori descent or who self-identify as non-Māori. Moriori (talk) 09:04, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I agree with you. I certainly use macrons when writing Māori loan words in New Zealand Egnlish. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:22, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested new lead (4): Pākehā (or Pakeha) is a Māori language^[3] word for people of non-Māori descent or affiliation. Borrowed into New Zealand English as a loanword in the early 19th Century, it is often used as a synonym for "of European" on official forms. There is ongoing debate over the ~~origins and~~ etymology of the word. Kahuroa (talk) 19:50, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're getting closer, but: (a) origins are etymology, so origins and etymology is redundant; (b) I prefer the word affiliation over descent since descent doesn't cover whāngai, which seems important in this context. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

fair enough, delete origins. But can we keep descent - -- I think it's needed for simple clarity. How about changing the first instance to "descent or affiliation" as above? Italics only to show I have edited 4. Kahuroa (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I generally like version (4) too. I'm not so sure about the second sentence though; it seems to put undue emphasis on official forms. The "of European" bit seems odd too; "New Zealand European" is the probably the right synonym in an official context, although "European New Zealanders" seems more natural. --Avenue (talk) 01:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've been trying to avoid the term New Zealander and similar because 100 years ago New Zealander meant Māori and people who access historical sources are likely to get very confused by this. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oops I meant to say "of European descent". For "official forms" one example is the Census forms of 1996. Could say something like ... its use in the 1996 Census provoked controversy ...

Also on refection I think the definition we are using above is dubious when it says it means in Māori "a person of non-Māori descent". The official dictionary of the Maori Language Commission defines it as "he tangata kiritea i tae mai no nga kawai o Uropi" = a white person who came/comes from the descent lines of Europe. I think that is the core meaning in Māori.

Suggested beginning for a new lead (5): Pākehā (or Pakeha) is a Māori language^[4] word for people of European descent. Borrowed into New Zealand English as a loanword in the early 19th Century, there is ongoing debate over its etymology, and the use of "NZ European or Pakeha" as a choice in the ethnicity section of the 1996 Census provoked an adverse reaction.

Kahuroa (talk) 09:39, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(a) I feel that mentioning the 1996 Census is recentism, it also gives the impression that this is a modern debate, when the history of the debate (as reflected in the rest of the article) suggests otherwise. (b) I'd really like to imply somehow that the word can mean different things in the two languages (which is very common in loanwords) but can't think of a good way to word that. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(a) I partly agree about 1996, but prefacing that bit with "for example" might be enough to avoid it being too recentist.

(b) The Maori definition given here (but not the cited source) seems more inclusive than the NZ English meaning, which I think now generally carries the connotation of King's "indigenous Pakeha".[1] --Avenue (talk) 03:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(a) let's not get bogged down on the Census quote. I put it in because I think it gives a sense of the word's [former] status within NZ and gives some feel for the sort of reaons behind its controversial nature. Adding 'for example' is fine. What say we leave it there for the moment and move on and develop some more sentences for the lede. (b) definition needs to match the source, and a quote from King is a good idea. Kahuroa (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Racism

The article doesn't have a much in the way of the fact that a large number of people see the term as racist. The racism may, or may not, have any basis in truth but there is a definite perception and I think that this should be mentioned explicitely somewhere. I personally hate the term - I see it as akin to nigger, wog etc - as a descriptor I am a New Zealander. I was born here, my parents were born here and their parents were born here. 146.171.254.97 (talk) 00:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To be included in the article, content needs references. If you can include reliable references, pretty much any relevant content can go in. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://kupu.maori.nz/ShowKupu.aspx?kupu=545

[2] ttp://kupu.maori.nz/ShowKupu.aspx?kupu=545

[3] ttp://kupu.maori.nz/ShowKupu.aspx?kupu=545

[4] ttp://kupu.maori.nz/ShowKupu.aspx?kupu=545

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]