Talk:Tiramisu

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Australia

Why should there be any mention of of its status as a food fad in austrailia? Two16

You must be new around here. This is Wikipedia, where everything is encyclopedic; rumors, fads, lame interpretations, anything goes.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. "

The result of the debate was don't move, sadly enough. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Tiramisu → Tiramisù – Proper spelling. Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page. --Fibonacci 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Maybe in Italian it's correct but not in English. LuiKhuntek 08:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm a "pro-diacritic" in general, but Tiramisu entered English without the accent. Duja 16:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Opppose, this has a clear English usage, being "tiramisu". 132.205.45.110 21:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. //MrD9 05:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support — the stress is on the final syllable. — Gareth Hughes 17:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Opppose: the name in English does not have an accent mark. Jonathunder 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Correct name. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mascarpone cheese, or cream?

The article for some time has begun:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

In this edit, the sentence was changed to:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

I reverted. My problems with saying mascarpone cream instead of mascarpone cheese are:

Neither this article nor mascarpone explain what the term mascarpone cream means. We do, on the other hand, link to the article which describes mascarpone as a cheese.
Mascarpone cream contains many of the other ingredients, and they are used in the tiramisù only via the mascarpone cream. So if we use the term mascarpone cream in this sentence, I think it would more precisely read:
Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa.

I think it's better for the reader to list the primal ingredients they are likely to already be familiar with—i.e., "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine". Thoughts? --TreyHarris 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese and whipping cream, this is what is used in tiramisu and many other italian desserts, not pure mascarpone cheese. Ask any pasty chef in the world. Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs. --NEMT 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not denying that tiramisù contains mascarpone cream—I make tiramisù, I know what's in it. But mascarpone cream is not just mascarpone and cream. Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese, whipped cream (not just "whipping" cream), and zabaglione, which in turn contains marsala, eggs, and sugar.

"Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs." First off, it's not my "proposal"—this language has been stable in this article for almost five years. You're the one who wants to change it; you have the "proposal", not me. Secondly, the difference is that there's an article on "spaghetti", and "spaghetti" is a well-known term to the general English-speaking public. There's no article at mascarpone cream, and if you ask a random English speaker what it means, they're not going to be able to describe it.

I would say that if you'd like to write an article on mascarpone cream, I'd drop my objections to changing the sentence to #2 above. (But not #1—there's no reason to repeat eggs and sugar and Marsala.) But I'm not sure that mascarpone cream meets notability requirements for an article to itself (which is wrapped up in the whole reason I oppose this change). However, if you want to try creating a mascarpone cream article, go ahead. --TreyHarris 18:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So why not have it say "...typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa?" There isn't a pastry chef in the world who would respond to a customer asking the question "What's in Tiramisu besides the ladyfingers?" with "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, etc." he would just say "mascarpone cream." --NEMT 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because this article isn't for an audience of pasty chefs (who would not only already know what mascarpone cream is, they'd know what tiramisù is, too). The audience is people who do not know, but want to know, what's in tiramisù. Telling them "ladyfingers and mascarpone cream" is not useful for that audience without defining mascarpone cream—if they know what mascarpone cream is, then they almost certainly know the most famous dish it is used in. --TreyHarris 22:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, but why stop there? Let's just be as clear as possible and say it's made out of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen... --NEMT 22:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who isn't a chef but has made tiramisu, and as someone who hasnt been involved in this, I'm glad it was left as "mascarpone cheese". Of course if anyone seriously thinks that saying cheese instead of cream is one step away from describing tiramisu on an atomic level, let them come forward now or forever stay silent on the issue. 59.167.164.197 15:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That accent

If the decision was made to leave the page title as "tiramisu", a decision I agree with, by the way, why is "tiramisù" being used throughout the article?

Incidentally, to counter the arguments put by the people supporting leaving the accent on the English word, yes, the stress is certainly on the last syllable, and that means that an accent is necessary in Italian (otherwise the stress would be on the penultimate syllable), but English does not use accents to mark stressed syllables.

Furthermore, whereas tiramisù is the correct Italian name, English tends to drop accents when adopting and naturalising foreign words when they are not necessary to understanding. "Cafe" is widely seen instead of "café"; the diaereses formerly seen in "zoölogy" and "coördinate" have long since gone. It is helpful to write "résumé", however, to avoid confusion with the verb "resume". — Paul G 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All accents now removed, except in the Italian usage of the word. — Paul G 15:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The intro

Quick question: does tiramisu really metaphorically mean "make me happy"? Or is the word you're looking for literally? Artiste-extraordinaire 05:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it literally means "pull me up". ("Pick-me-up", as in the article, is close to literal, though not quite, but it has the advantage of conveying the idea better as an English idiom.) --Trovatore 06:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Type(s) of rum?

Does the recipe call for spiced or unspiced rum? 24.131.138.87 12:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Soyu Ewww - just the thought of spiced rum in this makes me feel queasy :-) Stick with the normal stuff. FlagSteward 12:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dish history

I know it's very uncyclopedic, but I can assure you by personal experience that my mom made tiramisu at least since I can remember, that is the end of the Seventies... And since she's not a great inventor, I bet this wonderful masterpiec of our cuisine had at least some decades of history back then. Basil II 01:09, 2 November 2007 (CEST)

Move to Tiramisù?

Can we please move this article to the proper Italian spelling, since that's what we use in the lead? Alternatively we should use English spelling throughout. Thanks 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was discussed above, and there is consensus not to use the accented spelling. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Marsala does not belong

Tiramisu has nothing to do with zabaglione. Time to get our references right please. 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm italian, and i've never seen any zabaglione on my tiramiù... --213.156.52.96 (talk) 23:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Same here, I'm Italian and there isn't any "zabaglione" in the Tiramisù -- Manuel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.40.36 (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is most definitely zabaglione in tiramisu. For one source, see Rose's Heavenly Cakes by Rose Levy Beranbaum. Or The Best International Recipe from America's Test Kitchen. There are certainly some simplified recipes out there, and many people substitute dark rum for marsala, but the original definitely was made with zabaglione.Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't do a citation

I'm fed up with wikipedia for the evening, I am unable to add my cite properly for the ingredients. Yanaghihara, Dawn (December, 2007). "Perfecting Tiramisù". Cook's Illustrated. No. 89. pp. 20–21. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

There seems to be some confusion in thsi article's recipe. It looks like two different recipes mixed together. Notice, for instance, how the liquor is added twice and the lady fingers are assembled twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.160.208 (talk) 03:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Origin and History

The section "Origin" should be merged into "History", avoiding duplication and preferably without unsourceable statements. 88.233.36.11 (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'original recipe'

"The original recipe called for the following ingredients: Savoiardi biscuits, eggs, sugar, rum and cocoa. In the original recipe, there was no liquor [...]"

So did it include rum or not? 84.246.155.101 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC).[reply]

no, cognac... cognac is expensive, so brandy is supposed to be the alternative, though i would stick with rum for a better flavor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uncyclopedic

This whole article is very uncyclopedic, and should be removed. you cannot say you have no idea the origin of the dish, and then come back around and say the original ingredients dont have any liquor!!!!! what Italian older than 30 doesnt remember Tiramisu?!? Ridiculous. First of all, it wasnt a dish aimed at children, it was an erotic dish... 'pick me up', meaning I need some help for round two in the bed. What child do you want running around on a sugar and caffeine rush? What child is spoiled enough to have such a special desert created for them? rice pudding and shut your mouth. So that analysis on why their was no liquor is just ignorant. Its cognac people... the liquor is cognac. Nobody uses it because most restaurants are too cheap and cognac is expensive. Brandy is your unsavory alternative... wine? yuk! next, its mascropone cheese. just taste the difference in the dishes, and that should be obvious. besides, any old italian chef will tell you... 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with some of this, it is not a child's dish, there was a brothel above "Le Beccherie" and the desert was named "pick me up" for the obvious reasons (so you people take children to brothels?). If I am not mistaking the name is also slang for "turn me on". grossetti 83.228.131.29 (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this being Wikipedia, if you don't like it, fix it. I don't mean that flippantly. I agree that this article could do with a bit of love and research. I was amazed to find that Tiramisu is such a recent invention, but it does seem to be so. It's a curious story that deserves a good write up. If you have the time and inspiration to do that, that'd be great. If you make a start, I'm sure some of us will try and help. But please, try to make the piece encyclopaedic - for some reason this page attracts lots of people who think they know the only Tiramisu recipe and everybody else is wrong - reliable references are a good thing ;-) And for the record, I prefer cognac. I didn't realise there was any question about mascarpone? GyroMagician (talk) 00:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a difference between being uncyclopedic and being unencyclopedic. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So you're here to help improve the article? GyroMagician (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some revisions that should help address these issues. Any thoughts? Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alcohol

Amongst a set of excellent edits, Patrick Colvin removed the reference to alcohol in the opening section. I put it back, because I always expect alcohol in Tiramisu, but I realise that I'm not even nearly a valid source ;-) So, we have two questions:

Should Tiramisu contain alcohol?
If it should, which one(s)?

I'm not asking for your personal opinion, even if your Italian great-great-great-great grandmother always made it that way - we need something approaching a reliable source. Yes, it is valid to say 'sometimes' or 'often', but we don't want to end up with a list of every type of booze that's ever entered a Tiramisu.

And BTW Patrick, thanks, the page is looking much better! GyroMagician (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My copy of Larousse Gastronomique defines it including "spirits or liqueur". Where in the article ought this go? And not as much RS, but my Martha Stewart cookbook says liquor is optional; and my four recipes in Google Docs all view the liquor as mandatory. I have always perceived liquor as a defining component of the dish. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't totally sure about the opening paragraph. According to the sources I have found, it seems that liquor is mandatory in the cheese mixture, but not traditionally used with the coffee. So I left it out of the description because I wasn't sure how to include it without excess verbiage. If anyone has an idea, please go for it! As for which alcohol, sweet marsala is traditional (every italian source I could find was adamant on this point), but dark rum is a frequent substitute. And some people use just about any liquor you can think of. Patrick Colvin (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've boldly changed it to something based on the source I have. Maybe it needs to be tweaked, but I changed it as little as possible while not saying anything the source doesn't say. The entry in Larousse is this: "Italian dessert invented during the 1970s, based on plain cake or a yeasted sweet bread soaked in spirits of liqueur and coffee, topped with a mascarpone mixture, sometimes containing beaten egg yolks lightened with whisked egg whites." carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 00:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's very interesting. I've never heard of a tiramisu (or anything resembling one) containing a yeasted bread. I would think it would be very tough and unpleasant. I wonder where larousse was getting their info? Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I've found some online sources saying some people make tiramisu with leftover panettone. Which is technically a bread. I'm not sure if this variation belongs in the intro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickcolvin (talk • contribs) 07:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have boldly decided that your reference to bread is very interesting but as it is an uncommon variation, it does not belong in the introduction. I've moved it, along with the citation, to the preparation section. What do you think?Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me, Patrick. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like it. The whole article is looking good - well done. GyroMagician (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New Yorker 1936

About the article on the new Yorker, if you see with attention the image of the page http://books.google.it/books?id=uConAQAAIAAJ&q=tiramisu&dq=tiramisu&hl=it&ei=M2d7Ts2fHNKM4gTt9MSrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA you can see it’s a review of an Italian restaurant in Brooklyn the Noodle Pudding. Is an actual restaurant and in the article there is the telephone number (718-623-3737) this is the actual number not the number in the 1936. More: result the restaurant is opened in 1994 or 1995. Could someone of New York confirm that? This question was object of an heavy discussion in the italian wikipedia too http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussione:Tiramisù

Post scriptum: sorry form my English