Talk:Santur

"there is an American company named Santur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.122.52 (talk) 23:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Santoor

• Oppose merge. As of this comment we have six clear and cogent arguments against the merge, versus one comment (Jan 2006) from a user who has no evidence beyond similar pronunciation and who clearly is not speaking in terms of the two different instruments in question. The proposed-merge note in the main article is confusing and it will divert some users to a different instrument. Has that note really sat there in the article for 3.5 years, despite the obvious agreement here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.3.251 (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. NOTE: Because of transliteration issues, those terms are sometimes confused, but the clear standard in English is santur for the persian instrument and santoor for the Indian instrument. Therefore, disambiguation between the two terms is actually an important goal for both articles in the English Wikipedia, and the presence of the merge request bar itself is likely misleading. Santur and santoor are entirely separate instruments; their physical construction, tuning, playing styles, cultural history and repertoire are different. --quelasol —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC).

• Oppose merge. I don't think this article should be merged with santoor. This is like wanting to merge the setar article with the sitar articles because the names sound similar. The physical differences, playing styles, and famous musicians between the Persian and its derivative Indian santurs are different enough to merit different articles. I think a simple renaming of the articles to maybe "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" would be sufficient. There have been many deletes (by anonymous editors) in the Indian santoor article concerning the Persian santur, and I feel that if the articles get merged most of my contributions about the Persian santur will eventually get deleted. --jonsafari 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Pronunciation of "سنتور" in Farsi is both of Santoor and Santur.I think these articles must merge. If there are different you can write.(مهدی 01:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC))

• Oppose merge. While Indian santoor and Persian santur are both hammered dulcimers, they are certainly two separate instruments with their own distinct histories and playing styles. The articles should absolutely remain separate, regardless of the similarity of the instruments' names. I completely agree with Jonsafari above regarding distinction between the names and perhaps renaming the pages to "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" as well as providing disambiguation links at the top for anyone who might be looking for one and finding the other. The santur page could then redirect to the Santoor (Persian) page. Thanks! --Swellbow 03:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. These are two separate instruments in the hammered dulcimer family, constructed in different fashions and in different nations, from different materials, with different tunings. One is used for Persian music and the other for Hindustani (Indian) music. Badagnani 08:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. I also oppose the merge and while the two types of "santour" are not as different as "setar" and "sitar" are, there are sufficient historical and physical differences to necessitate two separate articles. I concur in the suggestion of having two articles called "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" or at least having a "disambiguation" explanation on top of each article, directing the user to the other article for clarification.--Smalek 20:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose merge.

The santour appeared after the santur. Further, the construction is different. Dogru144 21:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

santour / hammered dulcimer

Why isn't the santour cross-referenced on the hammered dulcimer page? There is only a vague reference to Iran as the origin of the dulcimer.

That should be asked on the hammered dulcimer page. –jonsafari 18:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Spelling of "santur"

• I think the various spellings of "santur" should be included in this article. The current spelling of "santur" does not read the same way as it is pronounced in Farsi. Other spellings (most commonly "santour" and "santoor") should be included (perhaps with a disambiguation link) to keep true to the actual pronunciation of the word. TarTar Sauce 16:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll add other pronunciations of the name. BTW, santour already redirects to here. –jonsafari 18:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

History

Please! Let's have some history for this article. Dogru144 21:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

According to most credible resources, other than nationalistic inspired ones, the santur was invented in ancient Babylonian (1600-911 BCE) and neo-Assyrian (911-612 BCE) eras.. At some point, the Persian empire ruled that part of the world (known as Mesopotamia). But, the Persian empire ended its rule of Babylon/Assyria and, today these lands are part of current day Iraq. This is also cited by a Persian santur website. See http://santoori.com/santoor_tuning_chart.html

Iraqi classical music (Iraqi Maqam music), unlike Iranian classical music, used the santur 100% of the time, along with a spike fiddle called "Joza (djoze, jozeh) by Iraqis. Please discuss and include this information. It seems like this wiki page is dominated by mostly overly emotional and nationalistic posters. Babylon does not exist today, this should make it neutral since, Iraqis do not claim it to be "theirs", unlike Persians.

74.57.65.117 (talk) 22:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Bad Link

Link to related instrument "Qanun" under picture does not link to a related instrument, but to an article about Islamic Law. Link needs to lead to "Kanun" but I don't remember how to make that change. Garbagemania (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

TECHNICAL INFO FOR SANTUR

After getting a lot of emails about why the Santur page has gradually downgraded, I decided to go on here do some editing. I'm not a Wiki editor and until last night had no clue what I was doing. In the past (years ago) when ever I made a change, users like Jonsafari and few others would clean up my work and everyone added to it.

Recently I noticed User: Musiclover81 in the past few months has gradually turned the image of this page into a prehistoric Arabic imaged page with the 3 Babylonian pics, The Iraqi Santur Player pic and the list of 28 Unverified Iraqi Santur players, with a bunch of misinformation I never saw traveling for a while....

I have a bone to pick. Not just because I'm Persian, Not just because I'm the son of a master Persian santur player, but because it's incorrect data and it's really lame to take something that is Persian and turn the image into something that looks Arabic.

Now I have lot of work to do to back up what I want to change and I've sent emails to Professor Ann Lucas, UCLA PHD on Persian Music, Professor Bruno Nettl, Chicago Urbana University PHD on Persian Music and two others who are helping me with citations to back up what I believe needs to be repaired. Below are the things I'm most concerned about and what I think they should look like.

1st off: I could have put a picture of my father on there playing a Persian Santur and I didn't, I uploaded a clean picture of the nicest Santur I have to replace Jonsafari's upside down picture of the Santur that's on a carpet that the file name says: Persian_Santur.jpg and the tag says Turkish Santur. So Musiclover81 posted a picture of an Iraqi Santur player, but calls the picture: The Iraqi santur. and he's playing a Persian santur tuned to Iraqi scales.

(The Santur is PERSIAN instrument. Many surrounding countries took the Santur and made drastic changes like the Arabic Kanun, Greek Santoori, the Cimballum, Chinese Yanquin, Indian Santoor & Hammered Dulcimer. Now all of those countries redesigned the instrument made them bigger, thicker, wider and implemented a total different structure, technique and tuning and use different mallets)

The Turkish, Iraqi, Afghani, Pakistani Santur's did NOT. They just took the Persian instrument and tuned it to their scales and call it THEIR santur. Now for some of you, you might think I'm obsessive. I'm not, this is important to understand. and I'll give these examples: If a Japanese guy bought a Santur and tuned it to the Japanese scales, can he call it: The Japanese Santur? NO. it's a Persian santur that's tuned in Japanese scales. Or when I play my 12 bridge Santur and tune it to an American song, do I called the American Santur. No I don't.

So fyi: there is NO Iraqi Santur. Iraq is a border country and they didn't make any effort to remodel the instrument. They just took a Persian instrument and now call it an Iraqi santur.

Musiclover81 says that the Iraqi Santur is fully chromatic and doesn't need to be tuned. That is FALSE.

Many Persian Santurs were made bigger with more bridges. 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 bridge Santurs. They are all DIATONIC santurs. They might have some more notes, but that doesn't make it CHROMATIC. look up chromatic and diatonic scales and you'll see the difference.

2: The list of Iraqi players. where did this list come from? 2-3 names show up on Youtube and google. The rest are non-existant. After someone deleted the list in August - she reposted them and says: A page for each one is being made right now" - where are the pages 2 months later?

3: Under Notable santur players - the list should start with Iranian Santur players. She changed it to Alphabetical country listing. why? doesn't make sense and that's not making it neutral. Making it neutral would be listing the Persian/Iranian Santur players, then listing the other countries under: Santur Players From Other Countries (in alphabetical order) that's the way it was for many years until she started changing it.

4: The Santur has 24 unique notes NOT 23 - There are NOT 4 repeated notes. From the bottom note on all three registers it starts with (E koron, F, G, A, B, C, D, E flat, F) there are 6 F notes that are the same pitch, that leaves 8 unique notes 8 x 3 =24 NOT 23.

5: The Santur is played with 3 THREE fingers (Thumb, Index & Middle) NOT 2 fingers. in every picture on the Internet and books, you can see it in plain sight.

6: The Santur does NOT use a combination of Brass & Copper Strings for the right side of the instrument. it's EITHER Copper OR Brass, and it's not Stainless Steel for the left side, it's just Steel. there are different kinds of Steel used depending on the size of the instrument and strings that are preferred and yes some are stainless steel

7: Santur's are made of Walnut, Mahogany or Teak which are ALL exotic woods. so the statement: "walnut OR Exotic woods is incorrect" google: Exotic woods and the first link will verify.

8: The Santur name has NEVER been verified or proven as to where it came from. The word Santur in the Filipino means something totally different and the word Santur is used in a variety of different languages. So it does NOT mean 100 Strings as the Indian's claim and i also does NOT mean "Mountain Sounds" The name FIRST appeared in old Persian poetry referring to the instrument. NO one knows what the name means, who made the name and who invented the instrument. An IP user sent me a message and told me to get a history lesson and that Persians destroyed Babylon and stole their inventions including the Santur. How can anyone say that? How do we know the Babylonian who's holding that Santur in that picture didn't get it as a gift from a friend? Many cultures traded art, artifacts, etc... and there is NO proof that the Persian's stole the invention of this instrument.

Persians have invented a lot of things in the past centuries and it is hard to believe that an instrument that has 12 modes of classical music behind it with a unique technique is a stolen tradition. Our music and instruments have been handed down for thousands of years.

9. I removed the Arabic writing next to the name and that didn't stick either. Why do we need Arabic translations for English words? if you're going to do that, then we need the Chinese, Greek, Romanian & Indian translations too. It's Persian instrument and that should be the only translation with native writing.

at any rate, way to long of a post. I'm sorry but I needed to get his out and I'm learning how to do things the right way. I'm sorry for making big changes to fast without discussing them. I wrote this to try to follow the rules so thanks for reading.

User N2e and and Wikihead have been schooling me on how to go about making changes and additions, so I'm gathering the citations to support what we wrote below:

Santur:

The santur (also santūr, santour, santoor ) (Persian: سنتور) is a Persian hammered dulcimer. It is a trapezoid-shaped box often made of walnut wood. The mallets (Mezrabs) are feather-weight and are held by the thumb, index and middle fingers. The 72 string Persian santur has two sets of bridges, providing a range of approximately three octaves. The right-hand strings are made of a copper or brass strings, while the left-hand strings are made of steel. Two rows of 9 bridges called "kharak" (total of 18 kharaks) divide the santur into three octaves. Over each bridge crosses four strings spanning horizontally across the right and left side of the instrument. There are three sections of nine pitches: each for the bass, middle and higher octave called Poshte Kharak (behind the left bridges) comprising 27 bridges all together. The top "F" note is repeated 3 times, creating a total of 24 separate tones in the Santur. The Persian santur is primarily tuned to a variety of different diatonic scales utilizing 1/4 tones (semi-tones) which are designated into 12 Dastgah's (modes) of Persian classical music. These 12 Dastgah's are the repertory of Persian classical music known as the Radif.

Derivations: Similar forms of the santur have been present in neighboring cultures like India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Armenia, Turkey, Iraq and Greece. The Indian santoor is wider, more rectangular and has more strings. Its corresponding mallets are also held differently played with a different technique. The Chinese yangqin and the Greek santouri also derived from the santur. The eastern Europe version of the santur called the cimballum which is much larger and chromatic is used as an accompanying instrument in gypsy music.

--Santurman (talk) 07:52, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

On your last comment above—"so I'm gathering the citations to support what we wrote below"—exactly right. Wikipedia deals in verifiable claims, so it will indeed be important that you gather reliable sources for which you can write a citation that supports each claim. I will happy to help you learn to do good citation formats. Just ping me on my Talk page when you have the sources, including titles, publisher, date of publication, etc. – and I will help show you an easy citation format that you can learn and utilize for your other citations. Cheers. N2e (talk) 00:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Santur Hand Position.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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