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September 26

Name for a Welsh speaker?

Hi - someone who speaks English is an Anglophone, someone who speaks French is a Francophone, so what is someone who speaks Welsh? Thanks for the help in advance! --145.100.194.198 (talk) 02:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that there is no word for this (there isn't for most languages). Note that, for example, wikt:Category:English words suffixed with -phone only has "-phone" words for a very small number of languages. My guess is for most languages we just don't have a word for "person who speaks X". rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can find "Welshophone" references in google, but I suspect that's not in common usage. Wikipedia does have an article called Hispanophone, and the reason I bring that up is that English, French and Spanish are 3 languages that have a long-standng "global" presence. That is, the terms are used for the "English-speaking world", and so on, respectively. The Welsh-speaking "world" I would think is pretty much just Wales. ←baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You forgot Chubut...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 06:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rjanag, the ones listed in that category are by no means the only ones. I’ve also found Swedophone, Germanophone, Finnophone, Turkophone and Hellenophone in English Wiktionary. And in French there are Lusitanophone, Magyarophone, Roumanophone, Bulgarophone, Ukrainophone, and I have no doubt there’d be others. I’ve discovered some of these latter words used in English texts too, so Wiktionary needs to be brought up to speed. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are also lots of related terms listed in Template:Cultural appreciation. I was just using that as an example. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Cambrophone" has a few Google hits, including one in John Davies' A History of Wales.--Cam (talk) 04:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I also found a few hits for "Cymrophone."--Cam (talk) 04:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great, I'm writing a report on Wales and I think Cymrophone or Cambrophone would work perfectly. Thanks again! --145.100.194.198 (talk) 10:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The word that occurred to me was "Gallophone", but its meaning would perhaps be less obvious than "Cymrophone". --ColinFine (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Evan, Gwyneth, Glenys, Dylan? μηδείς (talk) 18:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bananaphone?--M @r ē ino 20:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

how not to end on a preposition

I had the sentence, "....wishing for someone to talk about photography with" and was happy with it, but it eventually bothered me that I had ended on a preposition. So I changed it to, "wishing for someone with which to talk about photography." But "which" and "someone" don't work, and "someone with whom to talk about photography" just doesn't sound right. What's the best phrasing, please? 82.71.20.194 (talk) 19:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can end sentences on a preposition, even in formal writing. This is one of those proscriptive grammar issues (like "splitting the infinitive") which keeps dragging through the language despite a total lack of actual justification that such usage has ever been expected of English. See Preposition stranding and Hypercorrection#Preposition_at_the_end_of_a_clause. Your initial construction is perfectly standard English, and does not need to be corrected. --Jayron32 20:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just for kicks. How about "....wishing for someone to talk with about photography."? But I agree with Jayron32.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many people are uncomfortable with ending a sentence with a preposition, simply because they were taught this was wrong, and that's all the justification one ever needs with such an arbitrary thing as language. For them, it was just as much descriptive as proscriptive, because their fellow speakers never or hardly ever did this, again because there was common consent that it was wrong to do so. So, Jayron, there was plenty of "actual justification that such usage has ever been expected of English". For them, fortunately, an alternative construction is almost always available. But for others who weren't raised under such a tyrannous yoke, it's not a problem that requires a solution. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, of course there are hundreds of dialects, and some of them likely have proscriptions against ending sentences in prepositions. However, that doesn't mean that such a proscription necessarily exists in Standard English, as such standard is defined by any of the various English style guides which are accepted as authoritative for whatever application or version of Standard English is desired. That is, there do exist some applications where a formal, defined, standard English is called for, and I am not aware of any commonly used style guides which have such a proscription. In fact, some common style guides spend some time debunking the prohibition, because it is commonly believed that such a standard should exist. In other words, yes, you can find forms of English where such a prohibition may exist, but the OP seems to wish to work within a standard form of English, and most style guides don't have such a prohibition. --Jayron32 21:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add a bit, the people at Oxford, who are considered a fairly authoritative source on the English Language, see no problem with ending a sentence with a preposition. See [1]. If it's good enough for the OED people, it's good enough for me. For American English speakers, the folks at Meriam-Webster have likewise come to similar conclusions. See [2]. The folks at the Chicago Manual of Style also agree, see [3]. The CMOS is rather judicious about it, they make it clear that using constructions which avoid sentence-ending prepositions are equally valid as sentences which end with prepositions; i.e. there isn't much demand to change it in either direction. I have been searching online, and through my old dusty MLA copy at home, and I literally cannot find a single style guide which mandates that you should never end a sentence with a preposition in formal writing, there is near universal agreement that you shouldn't worry about the issue. Of course, this doesn't disagree with Jack's point on dialects of English which are not specifically standardized for formal writing purposes. Many of those exist. But in formal writing, the OP is fine to end a sentence in a preposition, or to not, as they see fit. --Jayron32 21:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I pretty much agree with all that. But you have also proven my point quite nicely. "... some common style guides spend some time debunking the prohibition, because it is commonly believed that such a standard should exist" - that such a debunking was ever necessary proves there was something to be debunked. That was the "rule" taught in schools and homes that it was a poor use of language to end a sentence with a preposition. We all laugh at "this is something up with which I will not put" (whether it was Churchill or someone else who said it is not material here); that was taking a humorous shot at the extreme use of the "rule". Ordinary non-linguists didn't know or care whether it was a rule or just a "rule", because as far as they were concerned it was an important part of the way they spoke and wrote. The linguistic community is now in agreement this "rule" should never have been imposed in the first place. But guess what, it was imposed, and for a long time. That's historical fact. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All true, and all irrelevent, to answering the question of whether such usage is mandated by formal writing or speaking, as mandated by sources deemed authoritative on the subject. --Jayron32 21:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then what right did you have to say "despite a total lack of actual justification that such usage has ever been expected of English"? I was responding to what YOU wrote, to dispute its accuracy. If what I said was "irrelevent" [sic], then your initial remark must also have been irrelevant (as well as inaccurate). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. You are correct. --Jayron32 00:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it PREscriptive? ElMa-sa (talk) 20:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, proscriptive is correct. —Akrabbim^talk 20:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Yes, in a general sense. In this case it's also proscriptive, meaning a rule about something one ought not to do. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC) [reply]

If you don't want to end on a preposition, "with whom" is entirely correct and it's better than the alternatives you listed. But as the other commenters pointed out, there's not really anything wrong with ending on a preposition. rʨanaɢ (talk) 21:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Out of interest, why was it ever thought to be incorrect? Why was such a "rule" imposed, and who imposed it? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As with the split infinitive, the usual justification is that "you can't do it in Latin". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Preposition stranding#Origin of proscription against preposition stranding. —Akrabbim^talk 12:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 27

Rhotic-related stuff, 'r's where they shouldn't be

In this Youtube video, near the end, Mr. Lumberjack sings "just like my dear Papa", only he pronounces "Papa" with an "r" at the end, as if it were "Papar". Intrusive R seems related, but not quite the same thing, as he doesn't say anything immediately after "Papa". I think I've heard (in non-rhotic accents) similar things before (i.e. at the end of words, but not followed by another vowel sound, so not an intrusive R), but I'm not 100% sure as I haven't really paid attention to it. Is there a name for this phenomenon? --superioridad ^(discusión) 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Such a phenomenon is common in New England English, which has such words as "idear" for "idea" and "ar-EE-er" for "area", and such formations are not limited to intervocalic Rs. See here and here. This page has some discussion on the ideosyncracies of non-rhotic accents and the reappearance of the R in certain places.This blog indicates that intrusive-R appears in some words even at the end of sentences, so I don't think it has to be between vowel sounds. --Jayron32 04:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As anyone old enough to remember President Kennedy talking about our problems with "Cuber" will recall. Deor (talk) 04:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and that along with another word that he used often, led to this fanciful joke: "We must get the Russians out of Cuber, with viguh!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"A phenomena"? Ouch. --Trovatore (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC) [reply]

It's hypercorrection. Michael Palin is a non-rhotic speaker putting on a rhotic accent, which means he has to pronounce r's where he normally doesn't. He's just overdone it a little. --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

Using Monty Python as a reliable source for accents is not ideal. Here is an "outrageous" one from their quest for the Holy Grail. HiLo48 (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would call this R (in "my Papa[r]" and in "Cuba[r]" and the like): an intrusive R, although it's not followed by a vowel. The phrase intrusive R just means that the speaker inserts an unspelled R after a vowel (usually after a schwa) that ends a word. Really, we have been taught that the intrusive R is also followed by a vowel, but this is just because - the very phenonemon of an intrusive R - exists usually in non-rhotic accents, in which no R can be sounded unless it's followed by a vowel; However this is not essential in defining the very intrusive R, but rather in defining the non-rhotic accents only, so: if one hears a redundant R in rhotic accents, they still may call it: an intrusive R - although it's not followed by a vowel.

Note that some rhotic accents have another wrong R: one that is spelled as an L - before a nasal consonant; e.g. Colonel (=curnl), Lincoln (=lincurn), Malcolm (=malcurm), and the like. I wouldn't call this R - "intrusive", because it really does appear in the spelling (yet as an L - rather than as an R), while an intrusive R can't be traced to the spelling.

HOOTmag (talk) 08:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Colonel is a special case; it is not pronounced the way it's spelled. I think the pronunciation comes from somewhere else (possibly Spanish Coronel).

As for Licoln and Malcolm, there is no R sound in those words whatsoever. --Trovatore (talk) 09:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some rhotic accents pronounce: Lincurn, Malcurm (just as they pronounce: Curnl). You have been to the Midwest USA, haven't you? HOOTmag (talk) 09:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have, and I have never heard that. I think you're just wrong. If I recall correctly, you're not a native speaker. --Trovatore (talk) 10:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm not, and I do remember: Malkurm, and Linkurn (in the Midwest), which sounded weird to my sensitive ears. Now, I have also found this (p. 430). HOOTmag (talk) 10:41, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the actual scans of the book (pages 429–30), rather than the OCR'ed TXT file, you'll see it's "Linkum", not "Linkurn", both times. (The TXT has "Linkum" correctly the first time but the scanno "Linkurn" the second time. Angr (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look at this testimomy: "I'm a native of Washington, and it drives me crazy when people put an R in there. and also perplexes me. Do they say Linkern instead of Lincoln?...My dad, a native of Missouri, but lived in Washington for 40 years, still says Worshington".

And also at this testimony: When he talked about Lincoln, he pronounced the name, “Linkern” as was common in Illinois at the time.

Further, Abraham Lincoln himself pronounced his name "linkern", or "linkhorn", as indicated here, and also his father's name (Thomas Lincoln) was pronounced that way, as indicated here, p. 266.

HOOTmag (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This blog post calls it 'hyper-rhoticity' and describes it as something that happens when non-rhotic speakers try on a rhotic accent. It also points out that JFK used a standard intrusive R, and when 'Cuba' was not followed by a vowel sound he pronounced it without an R at the end. --superioridad ^(discusión) 10:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nicknack009 had it right, it is hypercorrection, of which adding extra arrs is a textbook example. See here at Accents of English

As for the "Lincorn" case, I can't say I have evere heard such a thing, but in my dialect only is pronounced oln-ly" with an anticipatory ell.

I've heard olny. HOOTmag (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would olnly take olny to be a reference to the Olney neighbourhood of Philadelphia.μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe that's why, when I met Simon Furman in June 2010, and he talked about how artists would draw the stories he wrote, it sounded to me like he was saying they would drawr them. I just assumed that since Simon Furman is British, he should know how to pronounce English properly. JIP | Talk 19:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'm a native British English speaker, and I think "drawr" is correct. But then I don't speak RP, I'm from the Black Country. Dialect and accent count for a lot in British English. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For another example of an intrusive R in a non-rhotic speaker, listen to John Lennon in A day in the life. At 0:45: "He blew his mind out in a ca(h)", but at 1:13 "I sawra film today oh boy". --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite musical Intrusive R is in Billy Joel's "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant", where he sings the story of Brenderaneddy (Brenda and Eddie) --Jayron32 23:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I (learner of English) was enjoying it very much when a British sports commentator was referring to this summer's Copa América tournament as "Copa Ramerica". --Theurgist (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

zebra line as a media jargon?

Is there a meaning related to media for zebra line? Has whiteline got a meaning related to printing, like the white space between lines? --117.253.199.71 (talk) 12:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bizness/Bijiness in Murakami's A Wild Sheep Chase

"Bizness, the man enunciated, which marked him as a foreign-born Japanese; most Japanese Japanese will say bijiness." -- A Wild Sheep Chase by Haruki Murakami, Chapter 8, translated to English by Alfred Birnbaum

How is this sentiment rendered in the original Japanese? Does Murakami use Romaji to write bijiness and bizness, or does he indicate the Strange Man's foreignness by some other means? --146.141.1.91 (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but I think he probably used katakana and wrote ビズネス/bizness and ビジネス/bijiness. Oda Mari (talk) 08:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Bugger off"

Being American, I'm always slightly amused when I hear this expression. I realize it stems from "buggery", i.e. anal sex or sex with an animal. Our article bugger says that in Canadian, Australian and New Zealander English, this term has lost its expletive force, and is now regarded as slightly comedic. Is this to say that in British English, telling someone to "bugger off" is seriously offensive? Joefromrandb (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is my standard phrase upon answering the phone to those who call when I am sat at the table eating dinner. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its not something you'd say in front of the children but not especially rude. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not to be interpreted literally. When someone says "fuck off", that has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. When someone says "piss off", that has nothing to do with urination. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec x2) It depends on context, of course, but I'd generally think of it as slightly comic and not particularly offensive; certainly much less so than "fuck off". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm agreement with the others here: not something you'd want your children saying, but harmless in the actual swearing stakes. But like "sod off" really. (Hence why The Two Ronnies got away with their dancing "so doth"/"sod off" pun.) Wiktionary seems to agree. Unlike that, though, it's got two slightly different senses: a direct one, which can be quite rude depending on the tone of voice, and in the third person, as in the Wiktionary quotation "We tried to catch him, but he had already buggered off." This is, of course, not unlike similar phrases. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dylan Thomas famously got away with calling the village that is the setting for his Under Milk Wood Llareggub, it was definitely unacceptable in 1954. Mikenorton (talk) 21:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've been thinking about how I use "bugger off", and how it compares with similar expressions broadly meaning "go away". I think "bugger off" has a slightly stronger feel to it, but not so much that it is profane, so much milder than "fuck off". It includes a bit of a "don't come back for a long time" meaning, so corresponds well to Medeis' usage with unwanted phone callers. I may well have used it in the same situation myself. Interestingly, in the circles I mix in, it's very much still an expression used mostly by males, whereas "fuck off", while stronger, seems to have become very co-ed these days.

I wonder if anyone has made a thorough study of the wider use of the word "bugger"? I had a big debate with someone recently about whether "bugger all" meant not very much (my thoughts), or none at all. In describing a person we have the distinct difference in meaning between a "silly old bugger" (an eccentric friend?) and a "stupid bugger" (someone considered very silly, not popular). One does have to be careful. It's a very flexible word. HiLo48 (talk) 21:35, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a British thing. The sheer absurdity of it makes it humorous that it dulls the insult somewhat. It's certainly less unfriendly than "fuck off".-- Obsidi♠n Soul 04:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are alternative derivations which come from either Bulgaria, or "blackguard". This site (which I've not read in full, so caveat) gives an interesting alternative derivation. This one also gives another one. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:40, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgaria is not an alternative derivation. Bugger derives from the presumed favorite sport of the Bulgars. μηδείς (talk) 23:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It originated as a somewhat slanderous accusation against the Bogomils, one of several neo-Manichean medieval religious movements (along with the Paulicians, Cathars, etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wood trimmer (person)

What exactly does a wood trimmer do, and what exactly is his workplace? Googling mostly results in pictures of various tools for trimming wood, but that's not what I'm after. I'm asking because I need synonyms to, and be sure I understand, what a "wood trimmer" is. The reason I ask is that there is a disease called "Wood-trimmer's disease", which is a variant of allergic alveolitis, caused by IgG antibodies to molds that presumably thrive in the wood-trimmer's workplace. Links to relevant workplaces (with pictures if possible) would be nice! Thanks! --NorwegianBlue^talk 20:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A sawmill worker? From here. Mikenorton (talk) 20:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Formerly, a person would rough trim a log by splitting it, use an adze to make it flat, then a plane to make it smooth. I think that's a job now done almost exclusively by machines in a lumber mill, so now I'd look at people who work there. StuRat (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both! That was my feeling too. And the reference was really excellent, Mikenorton! --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name translation

Why do some names have translations in lots of other languages, such as John/Jean/Juan/Johann/Jan/etc., while many others don't? --70.134.53.27 (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Older names are likely to have spread to more languages. In the case of "John", the name goes back at least to John the Baptist. StuRat (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It depends some on whether the name entered the language before major pronounciation changes occured in said language, or more recently. For example, English experienced the Great Vowel Shift during which all words changed how they were pronounced; a name which entered the English language prior to the great vowel shift would have had its vowel sounds shifted by it, a name which entered more recently would have been pronounced more like the language from which it entered English. This is but one example from one language. If you multiply these sorts of changes by the hundreds and hundreds of different dialects and languages, and consider every time a name gets "borrowed" from one language to another, you can see where such a complex melange can lead to many variations on the same name. Consider two fairly common English names, Jacob and James. Those have the same root name, and are also cognate with the Francophone name Jacques and the Iberian names Jaime and Diego. Jack, which sounds like it should be part of this family, is actually part of the John family, which also includes names like Sean and Johannes and Ian and Ivan. In the modern world, you can get an amazing cross polination of names, where a name can be assumed from another language untranslated. Thus, you get wonderful names like Vladimir Guerrero and Juan Trippe, despite the fact that the former has no Russian background and the latter had almost no Hispanic background. --Jayron32 21:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or Boris Johnson, who has Turkish and German heritage, but no Russian, as far as I can tell. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that to Anglophones naming your son Joshua is kosher but Jesus a bit queer. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our Hebrew teacher talked about that actually. Apparently no one names their kid Yeshua in Israel (same name as Joshua and Jesus), probably because of that association. Yeshua is of course an ancient name so it's got many different forms. It means salvation in Hebrew btw. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 01:51, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's considered disrespectful in anglo culture to name one's son Jesus, except by the parents of James Jesus Angleton, and also in most European cultures. The big exception is hispano countries, where the Jesuses are a dime a dozen. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not only that, but using Maria as a middle name for Spanish-speaking men is not considered unusual, as with Jesús María Lacruz, for example. That also brings up Maria and its many variations - another biblical name, of course. Meanwhile, Moses and Muhammed are common names in Judaism and Islam respectively. Why the proscription against "Jesus" in non-Spanish culture is hard to figure. Also, in English, announcers always use the Spanish pronunciation "hay-SOOS" for athletes such as Jesus Alou, even with the spelling being the same as in English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

English announcers use the pronounciation favored by the holder of the name, which is probably as it should be. (or a close approximation. Patrick Roy was famously hard for anglophone announcers to get correct, because the French "R" is hard for such speakers, so it usually defaulted to "Wah", but at least they tried). It would be very odd for anouncers to choose a different pronouciation for any name than the one perfered by the name holder. Indeed, if someone introduced themselves to you and pronounced their name a certain way, would you change their name for them, or use their own name as they themselves say it? --Jayron32 04:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC are famous for this. They have foreign correspondants sent to countries to give us the latest news on developments there, and not one of them can get the pronuciations of the names of the people and places they are reporting on right. It's incredible. There was a lot of BBC news stories about Liu Xiaobo a few months ago, and we had three different correspondents, and three different pronunciations, all of which were incorrect (two sounded French, and one just alien). If they report about Kim Jong Il, they give him a French sounding name, because he's foreign, so he must be French. The BBC's news website has guidelines on pronuciations of foriegn names in the news, and I am sure their correspondents either don't read this part of the website, or just find it too hard to understand. Why does Beijing need a French sounding name? Why can't it just be pronounced the way it's written? That is much closer to the original. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't they get Maria Sharapova's name right, then? It's not even hard to say. English has lots of words stressed on the third-to-last syllable. I can give them a little more rhythm on Kournikova; stressing a four-syllable word on the first syllable is counterintuitive to Anglophones. --Trovatore (talk) 21:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Except that in hispanic culture, Jesus Christ is usually "Jesucristo" which is seen as a distinct name reserved for him. In that way, the hispanophone name "Jesús" is more like the usage of "Joshua" in English than Jesus; the name "Jesucristo" would be seen as an odd choice for a first name in hispanophone cultures the same way Jesus would be in anglophone cultures (unless, you are Levon and you like the sound)... --Jayron32 04:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name Christopher (given name) is also one with many variations. It means "follower of Christ" or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A most useful piece of information to know should I find myself having to troll an atheist named Chris. :p In Jewish cultures, many many people are named after Patriarchs and Matriarchs. Just shows a different attitude. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 29 Elul 5771 04:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

However, they're not usually named for their parents. I hasten to add that Moses and Muhammed are not considered to be manifestations of God, while Jesus is. Regarding atheists, Christopher Hitchens certainly fills the bill. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bugsy, you've made a false assumption and then compounded it. Christopher (given name) tells us Christopher means "the one who bears Christ (in his soul)" (cf. the legend of him carrying the Christ child across the river), not a "follower of Christ" per se. Hitchens's parents didn't know how he was going to turn out, poor things. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Getting back to the original question, the names that have many different forms in different languages are usually the names with the longest history of continuous use in those languages. In European languages, these are mostly the names of the most important Christian saints, whose original form was Greek (or Aramaic or Hebrew). The original form has evolved distinctly as part of each language in which it is used over a period of 2,000 years. I think that you can find a similar variety in certain names derived from the Sanskrit names of heroes from the Hindu canon across Greater India. Names that are much the same across different languages, as Jayron suggests, are names that entered those languages recently, or that entered the language repeatedly from a source such as the Bible, without becoming "naturalized" as a name in that language. Names in this category would include English names that have recently become fashionable in other European languages, such as Kevin, or biblical names that go in and out of fashion over the centuries, such as Joshua. Marco polo (talk) 13:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin, of course, is not an English name, but an Irish one. It's the anglicized spelling of Caoimhín. Angr (talk) 14:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, I am told the name 'Colin' derives from Irish 'Calum', and also from French 'Colin' and a bunch of others. Will we ever know which came first? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our page Colin (given name) says it's "an Anglicized form of the Gaelic name "Cailean" or "Coileáin". There are several other alternatives, but I imagine it became popular with English speakers after several well known Scottish characters such as Colin Campbell, 1st Baron Clyde. The heirs to the Duchy of Argyll were alternately called Archibald and Colin for centuries, so I doubt much French influence there. Alansplodge (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 28

Misspelling one word in Urdu

This news story is about an eight-year-old Christian girl in Pakistan, who erroneously misspelt one word in an Urdu exam when answering a question about Muhammed. According to the story, she wrote laanat when she should have written naat, or vice versa (the article isn't clear on that), and according to the article, all that caused the misspelling was putting one dot in the wrong place. Because of this, she was scolded, beaten and expelled, and even her mother was switched to work at a different hospital than previously. I don't understand Urdu, so what do these words mean and how are they written in Urdu? JIP | Talk 16:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tangential: this reminds me of the Death of Lydia Schatz, see [4] -- Obsidi♠n Soul 17:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Laa" could be the Arab negative, but that would be a ligature, not a dot... AnonMoos (talk) 19:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was going to say because la means "not" in Arabic. Should have just beheaded her there, only having half a soul at most, what. μηδείς (talk) 23:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Googling {faryal bhatti misspell} produces plenty of publications, although many of them seem to be just copies of one another. Some translate naat as "hymn" and others translate it as "poem of praise"; the other word is given everywhere as meaning "curse", but is sometimes cited as laanat and sometimes as lanaat. Urdu is an Indo-European language and is genetically unrelated to Arabic; it does indeed use a modification of the Arabic writing system and has been borrowing Arabic vocabulary heavily, but I don't think this could have affected something as basic within the Urdu language as its negation. --Theurgist (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed it could be borrowed with fixed phrases and negative-prefixed words (like لاسلكي "wireless"), just as the Greek negative prefix "a(n)-" has been borrowed into English without replacing English "not". Anyway, if it means "cursed", it could come from Arabic root ل ع ن without any connection to negative lā... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Putting curse into Google Translate produces لعنت laʿanat in Urdu. Then googling لعنت plus the girl's names yields a few hits, like this one, which give the second word as نعت naʿat. In the above-cited news stories, they have omitted the ʿayn in the romanisations, which has made it ambiguous whether the instances of "aa" represent long ā's or combinations of two different short vowels separated by ʿayn (aʿa) or hamza (aʾa). The presence of a relation between لعنت laʿanat and the root ل ع ن l-ʿ-n is, I think, obvious. --Theurgist (talk) 00:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

لعنت (la'nat) means curse, but نعت (na'at) means praise. I don't think the two words have a common root or a lexical interrelationship. A little semblance in pronunciation has caused the fuss. Omidinist (talk) 04:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Urdu really doesn't preserve Arabic phonological distinctions; once I was baffled by a probable Urdu speaker who wrote of "Tauz" for what in Wikipedia transcription of Arabic is Ta'awwudh... AnonMoos (talk) 10:30, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See the tables at Urdu alphabet#Alphabet and de:Urdu#Alphabet to track the dissimilarities between the Urdu and Arabic phonologies. The pronunciation of ḏāl, which represents the voiced dental fricative /ð/ in Modern Standard Arabic and is there in taʿawwuḏ, is realised as /z/ in Urdu. There are a few more Urdu letters that write different sounds than they do in Arabic, as well as a few that have been added supplementarily to stand for Urdu sounds not found in Arabic, e.g. /ʒ/ or retroflex consonants. See also Hindi-Urdu phonology. --Theurgist (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So the girl made the mistake of drawing a continuous vertical line when she should have only drawn a stub and put a dot over it. This changed the whole meaning of the word to its opposite. What I find amazing about this was that the girl was punished so severely. JIP | Talk 16:57, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This same culture rioted over a few cartoons some Danish guy drew too, so you really shouldn't be all that surprised. Googlemeister (talk) 18:30, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This might be an unsuitable comment, but I tend to agree with the commentators to the news story that she was only persecuted because she is a Christian. I have thought of a theory that one of her classmates changed the "dot over stub" thing to a "continuous line" thing to get an excuse to accuse her of blasphemy. Actually, this reminds me of something I read from a Swedish website: var med i det glada Konsumsgänget means "be a part of the happy Konsum (a Swedish supermarket chain) gang". Draw two dots over the "o" in "Konsumsgänget" and it becomes var med i det glada Könsumsgänget, meaning "be a part in the happy sexual intercourse". JIP | Talk 20:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For those who can't read the Arabic alphabet, here is what caused the whole fuss (assuming the words in this source are the correct ones).

Instead of نعت, the girl wrote لعنت.

blue = initial or medial lām
orange = medial ʿayn
red = initial or medial nūn
green = final or isolated tāʾ

As the Danish newspaper cartoons were mentioned, we have a (good) article on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, which is (until midnight UTC) linked form Portal:Islam. --Theurgist (talk) 14:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you got the words in the right order? It appears that she wrote la'anat (with the vertical line thingy) when she should have written na'at (without the vertical line thingy), not the other way around. Anyway, this is beyond ridiculous. She didn't even know she was using the wrong word, it's not like she was intentionally trying to defame Islam. And anyway, if the word la'anat is so horrendous that it must never be written anywhere, why does it even exist? JIP | Talk 14:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I had got the words in the wrong order, corrected now. As for why the word exists, I think this could be satisfactorily answered by someone who is better at theoretical and historical linguistics than I am, but I believe a good starting point could be taboo deformation (which redirects to euphemism; notice the "Etymology" section, and see also profanity). In general, words can shift, extend, or shrink their meanings as a language develops and as they are borrowed form one language to another, and only become tabooed at some point of their existence.

Notice also that the word in question was there in a religious context regarding the prophet Muhammad; I believe there could be plenty of words to be seen as grossly unsuitable for such a context, even if they're not so "horrendous" by themselves otherwise. --Theurgist (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JIP, "la'ana" is a very useful word in the phrase "لعنهم الل‍ه" "may God curse them" (the pronoun of course can be changed). I see that all the time in Arabic chronicles about the crusades, for example. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:34, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Temperatures in Japanese

Hi, if a temperature change (weather) is described as ５度 in a modern Japanese text, is Celsius to be assumed? 86.179.118.99 (talk) 22:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about Japanese customs in this area, but I do know that only three countries in the world, the USA, Burma (Myanmar) and Liberia are left officially using non-metric measurement systems today. (The Brits are a bit mixed up, but do use Celsius comfortably.) So yes, assume Celsius. HiLo48 (talk) 22:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's Celsius. See [5] and [6]. Fahrenheit is described as ℉ or 華氏 like this. Oda Mari (talk) 06:34, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 29

translation needed

I found a piece of paper in my grandmothers bible, it starts out in English then switches to something i have never seen like a short hand or different language i was wondering is there anywhere i can get it translated. Any help would be very appreciated. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.180.26 (talk) 03:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you can scan or photograph the sheet and upload load it (at Tinypic or another image hosting site), we could give it a shot. The two most common shorthand systems are Pitman and Gregg shorthand; you might have a look at those to see if any of the symbols are similar. Lesgles (talk) 04:10, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did your grandmother, or anybody whom you know to have had the Bible speak a language (or languages) other than English? Falconus^{p t c} 08:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The English text could also give a clue if they're on the same paper. – b_jonas 10:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question about Chinese reading

Hi! I get two options for the first character of 燕兒 (Yan'er) - Character in Raise the Red Lantern Yān or yàn Which is it? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:14, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might be yàn because it is referring to the swallow bird. See here, for example. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:52, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The character's name in the novel is Swallow, so I think you are right. Thanks :) WhisperToMe (talk) 03:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the movie it's pronounced Yàn. (Also in my DVD of that movie the traditional character subtitles have it as 雁, not 燕; that's also a bird word.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 04:14, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

燕 might be a mistake. See these. a film page, a novel page, and zh:大红灯笼高高挂. But Google results are [7] and [8]. Oda Mari (talk) 06:53, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

“Glitze Glatze Glotze”

What is “Glitze Glatze Glotze, Fitze Fatze Glotze!”? --84.62.204.7 (talk) 12:18, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit of meaningless German onomatopoeia, probably made up by puberty-stricken schoolboys to trick each other into saying "Fotze" (which is a rather rude word for female genitalia, and sure to produce giggles among ten-year-olds). If you're curious about the individual words, "Glitze", "Fatze" and "Fitze" don't mean anything in standard German (although they might be words in some dialect), "Glatze" is a bald head and "Glotze" is an old-fashioned slang word for a TV set. (you might also be interested in Helge Schneider's song "Fitze Fitze Fatze", which works with very similar onomatopoetic lyrics) -- Ferkelparade π 12:30, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good response, but while Glitze, Fitze, Fatze will appear like nonsense words to most German speakers, they are not:

Glitze is the imperative of the verb glitzen, a variant of glitzern (glistle, glitter, sparkle, twinkle). [9]
Fitze (skein) is an old technical term related to sewing. [10]
Fatze is a technical term from sailing. [11]

All three words are probably non-standard or obsolete. Hans Adler 12:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Glotze for TV set is old-fashioned? I hear it all the time, including from younger people. Angr (talk) 06:53, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be our old friend, WP:RDTROLL.

At the risk of being a smartass, how does not a Germany-related nonsensical and lascivious question from an 84* range ring the bell for regulars here, after all this time? Anyway, his behavior is pretty childish and not really harmful, but it's wasting everybody's time. Heck, I wasted plenty of mine already... No such user (talk) 07:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I learned something. Though I'm a native speaker, I had no idea that Fitze and Fatze were actual words. No time wasted in my book. As for how a 84* range doesn't ring the bell, well, not everyone pays attention, some of us don't care or have a bad number sense, which is why your efforts of warning us or removing the more blatant nonsense (preferably before anyone has answered) are all the more appreciated. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, in most Swiss German dialects "Fitze" also means a birching rod used by Saint Nicholas or his companion "Schmutzli" to scare those children who've been naughty, not nice. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Polish version of this: "Ząb, zupa, zębowy. Dąb, zupa, zebowy" (Tooth, soup, dental. Oak, soup, oaken). The trick is not to say "dupa", which is a vulgar word for backside. A more elaborate version is the English "I'm not a pheasant plucker": I am not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's son. I am only plucking pheasants 'till the pheasant plucker comes. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:25, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Tongue twister for more, in many languages. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Russian: troika and perestroika

Does these words have anything in common? (maybe just etymologically). Wikiweek (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not even etymologically. The spelling similarities are purely coincidental. It would be like asking if the words "dental" and "coincidental" have a common etymology or were related, or maybe the words "table" and "notable". In this case, the word "troika" comes from the root "three" (as in "tri-") and in politics usually refers to a triumvirate. Perestroika means something like "reorganizing" or "restructuring" and its root is "stroika", meaning "to build", and probably has the same root as the English word "structure". See [12]. --Jayron32 22:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Russian stroi seems to come from the same IE root as Latin stria, "furrow".[13] Lesgles (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And, Jayron, I'm sure you didn't mean to direct Wikiweek's attention to an article about a punk rock band. You meant triumvirate, from "tres" = three and "vir" = man (as in virile, not verile). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. My bad. --Jayron32 18:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

September 30

to discharge a responsibility

To discharge is to get rid of as well as to perform. In the latter you discharge of it yourself to be rid of it. How common is the usage of dicharging a duty without the least bit of suggestion of getting rid of it or be done with it? [14] Here on a University's webpage you see a vice-chancellor's message saying to discharge my responsibilities as Vice Chancellor. Would like to hear people comment on it. --117.253.190.117 (talk) 04:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone would comment on it, this is a very common usage, not only in academia, but also in the military. This is one U.S. service reference but the wording is similar over many organizations.--Romantic Mollusk (talk) 11:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

IPA for Paul Robeson

Would someone be able to add the IPA for the pronunciation of the singer's surname? As someone has added to the article in a rather ad-hoc way, it is pronounced Robe-son, not Robie-son. Of course it needs to be as pronounced in US English. Thanks if you can do that. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:51, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done Many thanks, Medeis. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was me, and you're welcome. Angr (talk) 19:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Angr, and Medeis for tagging Done :-) Itsmejudith (talk) 19:53, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lol, wasn't trying to steal credit just prevent others like myself from going there to do what had already been done. μηδείς (talk) 01:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Grateful to both, and once more impressed at how well WP can work. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:33, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese: McD toy translation

Hello! A weird little request here: can anyone translate the name of the girls toys that McDonald's Japan is offering currently? I help run a kids meal toy website, and I'm stumped on this one. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Top picture: Left hand side says 'Spin back and sticker set'. The right hand side says 'co-ordinated sticker book'. Up top (same picture), it says 'look forward to getting one of these'.

Bottom picture: Just says there is a limit to all of the toys. It also says the colour and design of the sticker book may be different. (It is hard to see, even enlarged, as it is poor resolution). It then advises you to ask at the store, as they may not have it.

hope this helps. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the left hand picture (the Pokemon) is Pokemon Battario. The right hand one is 'Pretty Rhythm'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much! This is fantastic, even more than I expected translated! Again, thank you so much. -- Zanimum (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

October 1

listening exercises

These are some of the listening exercises we had in one of my online classes and I'd appreciate any enlightenment provided by experts in the language field.

Direction : Listen to the conversation and choose the answer that is true.

(Teacher will read this part aloud ): person A. How long have you had a backache? person B. For three days

(The student has to choose between these two choices ): a.) She doesn’t have a backache now. b.) She still has a backache.

I know that the correct answer is b because the conversation suggests that the subject still has a backache. But I need help with this one.

Teacher : person A. How long has Roger been interested in Egyptian history? person B. Since he lived in Cairo

Choices : a.) Roger lives in Cairo. b.) Roger has lived in Cairo.

I’m thinking that both are correct but I’m not sure. I’m really having trouble with the perfect tenses.-Meerkatakreem (talk) 04:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that B is the intended answer. "Since he lived in Cairo" would not normally be said of someone who was still living in Cairo; "Since he has been living in Cairo" (or "Since he moved to Cairo" or "Since he began living in Cairo") would be more idiomatic if one were speaking of a person currently living there. Deor (talk) 04:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deor's answer is correct. Although (a) might be correct and the speaker is just expressing himself ambiguously, the answer (b) cannot be wrong in any interpretation, so you you must choose it. μηδείς (talk) 04:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. To me, "Since he lived in Cairo" unambiguously implies that he no longer does so. I think there are two separate reasons for concluding this. One is that the simple past "lived" generally indicates a completed event. The other is that "since" (in its temporal sense) is almost always followed by a point in time, or something that is being regarded as a point in time, not by a continuing event. "Since he lived in Cairo" is therefore treating "he lived in Cairo" as a single event, which is necessarily complete. For the other meaning, it would have to be "Since he has lived in Cairo", or "Since he has been living in Cairo". --ColinFine (talk) 19:55, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What language is the word "Yohé"?

An article on the actress May Yohé is currently featured in DYK? Can anyone identify the origin of the name?

In my search I found this od web page http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/ircbot/PARALINGUA2.php?VOLUME=37&ARTICLE=62&PAGE=57&REF=Nesi which seems to be some sort of mock Breton. My guess is its a aesthetic rather than meaningful conlang, I can't connect it to any language I am aware of and find the lack of repeated grammatical formants and odd "phonology "(oöpé") dubious.

Can anyone identify the writing on that page? μηδείς (talk) 04:31, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's apparently not a language. But something generated to catch nonsense searches and then adds a bit of mystery. Diabolical. See answers to people who asked the same question before. It also gives an obviously useless 'key'.

Try changing the search string and you end up in different pages incorporating that particular word. http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/anagrams/PARALINGUA.cgi?search=INSERTWORDHERE -- Obsidi♠n Soul 05:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And the writing is from the Voynich manuscript.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 05:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not from Tlön? I am unaware of any authoritative Latin transcription of the Voynich manuscript.μηδείς (talk) 05:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the non-Latin writing. We may actually be seeing different pages of the site because it's random. :/ -- Obsidi♠n Soul 06:09, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is, still, the legitimate question of May Yohé's name. Several pages with that name return Spanish text. Perhaps it's Greek? μηδείς (talk) 05:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I found a good possibility by searching for 'Yohe' instead. Seems to be the Americanized spelling of German Johe/Joh, which apparently is roughly equivalent to English 'Joe'. The é was probably an affectation, as aside from her and her parents, no one else seems to have that name. But there are plenty of Yohe's and Yoh's. The first possible origin is particularly interesting (the Huguenots one), as they settled in Pennsylvania. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 06:03, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give someone the shaft

What is the origin of the phrase "to give someone the shaft"? How did that come to mean "to cheat, deceive, or mistreat someone"? How does the "shaft" come into play, in the expression? Thanks! (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2011 (UTC))[reply]

A shaft is any long thin object, so it basically means "fucked". See here.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:05, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You might also consider that the long thin object is usually empty -- or equivalently, full of nothing. Thus you can see the humor in the phrase, when dividing up the mining property between oneself and one's soon-to-be-ex-spouse, "She got the gold mine, and I got the shaft".

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 01:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, the usage of "getting the shaft" refers unambiguously to the meaning of shaft as a pole or rod; essentially it's the penis shaft that is being refered to. Getting the shaft or getting shafted means to "get fucked". The usage in the Jerry Reed song you quote is merely a play on words using two different meanings of "shaft". --Jayron32 03:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The Online Etymology Dictionary says: "Vulgar slang meaning "penis" first recorded 1719. Verb meaning "treat cruelly and unfairly" is by 1958, probably with overtones of sodomy. Related: Shafted; shafting." Alansplodge (talk) 15:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a reference for this, but when I lived in a mining area (Grimethorpe, South Yorkshire) I was given an alternative meaning: that of being pushed down a mine shaft. I thought at the time that was the polite version! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Esperanto ig

In Esperanto, can the suffix ig be a verb in itself like its close relative iĝ, and if so which parts take the direct object ending? For example, "It was we who caused them to become enemies" can of course be translated as "Estis ni ke malamikigis ilin". But is it also correct to say "Estis ni ke igis ili(n) malamikoj(n)"? And is it ili or malamikoj that takes the n? Inter change able|talk to me 18:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes "igi" is used in this way. You would say "Estis ni kiuj igis ilin malamikoj." (Note use of "kiuj" not "ke".)--Cam (talk) 02:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To explain why "malamikoj" does not get -n here: this is one of those cases where there is an understood "esti" in the phrase. That is, you can read the phrase as "Estis ni kiuj igis ilin esti malamikoj." (At least you can think of it of it that way, there may be a more complicated explanation for why this is so.)--Cam (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So the pronoun or other object always receives the n, and not the attribute that the object was caused to become. Inter change able|talk to me 15:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

Sorry A Know I Know

May someone please explain this weird construction for me. Is it regional? Or common? --Omidinist (talk) 07:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Context? rʨanaɢ (talk) 07:30, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It appears only once on the internet, in a short story called "The Soul Cages" by Thomas Crofton Croker, Ireland's pioneer folklorist, who was born in Cork, Jan. 15, 1798. Search for the phrase here: [[15]]. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 07:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. The correct form is Sorrow a know I knows and the context is this short story. --Omidinist (talk) 07:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To reduce that to a manageable length, here are paras 9 and 10:

"Where can they be?" asked the master, with a strong accent on the auxiliary verb.
"Sorrow a know I knows," said the man.

The OED says sorrow a is an emphatic negative, citing the passage from Croker (which is correctly "sorrow a know I know") and several Scottish usages as examples; and in context a know just seems to mean "a thing that is known". So the man is saying that he knows absolutely nothing about it. The whole phrase is used not just by Croker and the Irishman in the Ingoldsby legend but by quite a few other Irish characters [16]. Perhaps there's something in Gaelic that would explain the odd construction? --Antiquary (talk) 10:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This pdf file from Dublin´s Trinity College deals with the Iberno-English roots of the Sorrow / Devil negation.. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. --Omidinist (talk) 16:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

October 3

Caramell lyrics

Can someone give me the lyrics of these songs from Caramell: Skattjakt, Bara Vänner, Telefon, Ett & Två. I'd do it myself, but I don't speak Swedish, nor do I understand most of the phonetics involved. Also, I can't seem to find even the Swedish lyrics anywhere on the internet, so just the swedish will do just fine. 72.235.221.120 (talk) 00:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]