Jump to content

Talk:Saint Petersburg

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 91.122.61.61 (talk) at 22:10, 4 October 2011 (→Silly map orientation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:VA

Former featured article candidateSaint Petersburg is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 22, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted

Template:WP1.0

City Name - Spelling - a post-Soviet Outrage

The name of this city, at least in English, should be St. Petersburg, not Saint Petersburg. The fact that Wikipedia contains an entry called Saint Petersburg is both symptomatic and remarkable. It is an another example of Wikipedia being a collection of trash, not really an encyclopedic publication of any merit. That is incredibly sad - as so many links point to Wikipedia. It is the ultimate triumph of the worst (at least online).

Nonsense, Saint Petersburg - Saint Peter, I am a born Russian from that city and I know how to spell it. Both spellings are acceptable.

I did not read the actual entry (as it is probably a mess and would just make me angry, so why bother) but the title of the entry is sufficiently bad and needs to be corrected (I don't care about the content as it is probably hopeless).

No pre-Soviet publication in English contains a word/placename Saint-Petersburg. Search on Saint Petersburg through 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - results 0 Search on St. Petersburg through 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - results over 750

In the sense of grammar and culture, a written combination of "Saint" plus "Petersburg" is both preposterous and ridiculous.

While Sankt-Petersburg makes some sense in German (as Sankt Peter/s/+burg), Saint Petersburg makes absolutely no sense in English or French (as Saint-Pétersbourg). Out of collection of over 1000 pre-Soviet post cards with French spelling of the city name, not a single one spelled it as Saint-Pétersbourg.

Totally random examples: [1] [2] [3]

- St. Petersburg post card collection, 1900-1917, at the National Library of Russia in St.Petersburg.

The reason is simple, Sankt-Petersburg makes some grammatical sense in German (though little, as it was not and should not be spelled like that - [4], while in French and English Saint-Pétersbourg and Saint-Petersburg make no sense whatsoever.

Saint-Petersburg is an absurdity as there was no saint called Petersburg. It is unlikely there will ever be a saint called Petersburg as it is impossible to get baptized with such a name.

At least in English, this very recent aberration is a child of late Soviet and post Soviet "translators", uncultured in general, lacking understanding of own language, and unable to comprehend nuances, especially cultural ones, of a foreign language (in this case, again, of English), and of American journalists and writers (for precisely the same reasons) and of Soviet migrants (for exactly the same reasons) employed as translators by different organizations in the US.

Do the right thing and change the entry to what it should be ... St. Petersburg.

After all, you can still have a redirect from (incredible) Saint-Petersburg to St. Petersburg.


Roobit (talk) 15:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Roobit (talk) 15:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this section has been dead for a while, but just in case any one was wondering, there are plenty of pre-1917 examples of "Saint Petersburg" in English; just look at http://books.google.com/books?client=safari&oe=UTF-8&um=1&lr=&as_brr=4&q=%22saint%20petersburg%22&btnG=Search%20Books. The fact that in the past they also used the abbreviation means nothing. Lesgles (talk) 08:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Informal name

"St. Petersburg's informal name, Piter (Питер), is based on how Peter the Great was called by foreigners." This is very unlikely, because Питер is pronounced as [pit'er], with soft t', not [pitər] or [pitə]. I think it's simple shortening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olvegg (talk • contribs) 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


"St. Petersburg's informal name, Piter (Питер), is based on how Peter the Great was called by foreigners."

First of all, locals find the appellation "Piter" mostly offensive. It is considerate both working class and Muscovite term that is not generally liked and is mainly associated with outsiders. Secondly, there is of course no evidence of any kind to back the outrageous statement that "St. Petersburg's informal name, Piter (Питер), is based on how Peter the Great was called by foreigners.", because it there is no such evidence, it is worse than urban myth (for it is not a really a myth) - I've never heard of it, and ultimately no one called Peter I "Piter". In what language would be Peter called Pee-tehr? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roobit (talk • contribs) 16:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. A small part of locals only finds "Piter" offensive. The locals often use this Petersburg's informal name.--91.122.10.12 (talk) 10:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I live in St. Petersburg and that's the first time I've heard someone say the name 'Piter' is offensive. FC Zenit fans chant 'Piter! Piter!' with no apparent sense of irony but I suppose they're the working class people you find offensive... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.55.27.52 (talk) 12:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

unsourced sister cities list

I commented the sister cities list because has been marked as unsourced for 9 months now. I didn't delete them because this way it's easy to recover them. If someone can find a source for a list of cities that St Petersburg is sistered with, then the source can be added to the article, and the relevant cities uncommented. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found an official source for a list of sister cities, so I removed all the unsourced ones. Not all sister cities appear to be listed on the official list, so I copied the unsourced ones here in case someone can source and restore them:

Disambiguation?

I believe that the Florida city of Saint Petersburg is large enough (A quarter of a million people) and important enough (Many businesses and institutions are based on StPg) to warrant a disambiguation page for the article of "Saint Petersburg". It's in a large metropolitan area, and for a long time before the collapse of the Soviet Union, people didn't have to differentiate between the two Saint Petersburgs. Who agrees with me? ColdRedRain (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ColdRedRain, you shouldn't have shown your bad education and limited view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.73.122 (talk) 22:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who *lives* in that city, I was at least a bit surprised to find that the page wasn't at "St Petersburg, Russia". Does that violate a convention?
--Baylink (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This was previously discussed and rejected. Not that you are not welcome to re-open it, mind you, but I doubt the proposal is going to pass this time.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Full agreement with the rationale given in the rejection of the proposal referenced by Ezhiki. The Russian Saint Petersburg is definitely what is associated with the name "Saint Petersburg" in virtually all countries except the U.S., and even in the U.S., I gather, the Russian association is predominating. It is a far more important city historically (former capital of the Czarist empire, among other things) and culturally (the Hermitage, the other museums of St. Petersburg, the city's architecture, specifically the cathedrals, writers, visual artists etc. that lived and worked in the city and so on) than the U.S. town, not to mention the population.
A page titled "Saint Petersburg, Russia" would be as ridiculous as a page titled, for instance, "Washington D.C., State of Bavaria, Germany", if such a hypothetical settlement existed there. Out of all the English speakers in the world (to which this Wikipedia version caters, not only to U.S. citizens), I doubt that more than 5 percent of non-U.S.-Anglophones know about St. Petersburg, Florida, while I can assure you that virtually everybody knows about Saint Petersburg, Russia.
Thus, a disambiguation page, as it currently exists, is fully warranted, but a move of Saint Petersburg to Saint Petersburg, Russia would be completely irrational and simply ridiculous. Vargher (talk) 15:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think of it, I probably exaggerated when I stated that St. Petersburg, Florida would be unknown to 95 percent of Anglophones, so scratch that remark as needlessly provocative. My apologies. I am still firmly convinced, though, that even if they know of the U.S. city's existence, the primary association that is made is still the Russian city. Vargher (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just took a gander at your page, you seem to have a limited world view bias yourself. I'm going to reopen the disambiguation argument since the disambig discussion looks like it was stormed by a bunch of Euros who never left Europe.ColdRedRain (talk) 03:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not that it actually matters anymore, but just to clarify: granted, I suppose my stance towards the U.S. could be described as biased. Concerning the WP itself: Truth be told, I'm heartily sick of the Amerocentrism that permeates a considerable amount of Wikipedia's articles. You say that the disambig discussion looks like it's been stormed by Euros - to me the entire English Wikipedia sometimes looks like an Anglo-Saxon-exclusive project providing information on the U.S. and, on a much smaller scale, the UK first and foremost. Which is exactly what it's not supposed to be.
However, in this particular case, I believe that the disambiguation discussion is simply ridiculous from an objective point of view. I stated my point above: The Russian city of Saint Petersburg is historically, culturally, and -I would stipulate- economically more important than the city in Florida and I believe that the majority of people, including U.S. citizens, by now associate "Saint Petersburg" with the Russian city (although I confess that I don't have any actual statistics to back that up - just a hunch). Consider the fictional example I gave above of a Bavarian town with a population of 200,000 called "Washington D.C." or "Boston", for that matter - resulting in Wikipedia articles for "Boston, Massachusets, United States of America" and "Boston, State of Bavaria, Germany". I think the result of the discussion would be (rightfully) unambiguous in that case. Vargher (talk) 03:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

merge of list of sister cities of saint petersburg

I have proposed that List_of_Sister_Cities_to_Saint_Petersburg is merged to the sister cities section, since they contain the same information and having that article on its own is of no use --Enric Naval (talk) 09:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The list of cities article is redundant also with List of twin towns and sister cities in Russia --Enric Naval (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'd rather prefer to split the section from the article altogether. Are we really going to devote 10% of the article space to sister cities, especially as the list is very difficult to maintain properly referenced? After all, it is an utterly insignificant issue, most Petersburgers simply don't care and can't even recall any of them. Colchicum (talk) 21:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This link here [5] has been removed per linkspam and restored three times. I say that we should keep because it does provide info beyond what the article would have if it was a featured article (point 1 of Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided says to avoid links that don't provide this info).

The info consists of photos of carnivals on St Petersburg, its artillery museum and photos landscapes and streets around the city. The photos are copyrighted, yes, but I say to keep the link anyways until we can find a free use replacement for this resource.

I am the fist to nuke useless external links, but I find this one actually useful --Enric Naval (talk) 11:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This website is just someone's own personal photo album. As Wikipedia states, it's not a repository. Just because whoever runs that website has a bunch of photos of Saint Petersburg does not make the website anymore justified than an extensive fansite of some television show or even a city. And according to WP:LINKSTOAVOID, "#11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." are not allowed. El Greco(talk) 01:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The person cannot receive the full information on city only proceeding from the dry legal information. St.-Petersburg is not only a set of the facts and the list of sights. It, first of all, inhabitants, their pleasures, grief, a way of life.--Sergei Frolov (talk) 07:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The website provides additional coverage of Saint Petersburg's carnival, its Artillery museum, buildings, etc, that could never fit into the article. If it just covered the same info already covered on the article or on some other accepted wiki like wikitravel then I would delete it myself. Please notice that I am for removing it once we find either free use photography resource or links covering this same info in a more encyclopaedic way, and that is not just a personal site. Currently, this is the best link we have. Meh, I just clicked on the wikipedia commons link right there on the external links section [6] and I found that it already has a ton of free photos covering same stuff as the website, like buildings [7] and the Artillery museum [8]. I agree with Greco that the link should be deleted (altought for a different reason) --Enric Naval (talk) 12:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name borrowed from Dutch

I noticed this line "The original name Sankt Pieterburg (pronounced Sankt Piterburh) was borrowed from Dutch (Modern Dutch Sint-Petersburg)". However, when listening to the sound file it doesn't sound like the Dutch "Peter", a name in Dutch pronounced as "Payter". If it's really derived from the name "Peter" in the Netherlands, the name was probably spelled Pieter (my name) since that name is actually pronounced as "Peter". - PietervHuis (talk) 18:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name was not borrowed from Dutch, it is Dutch, but in German or Dutch spelling would be the same (as in 18 century) as it was written as Sint or Saint or Sankt but only pronounced so - [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roobit (talk • contribs) 16:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish vs Israeli

User User:Ellomate reverted original Jewish word for Israeli, which is simply wrong. Israeli citizens are not citizens of St Petersburg, Russia but of Israel. There is nothing racist about the word Jew or Jewish.

Israeli most commonly refers to the Jewish citizens of modern Israel, but may also refer to all Israeli citizens, including non-Jews.

--Atitarev (talk) 06:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


About crime and restoration after WW2

I wanted to expand on Russian crime because it is a big part of their culture as well as income. Another thing that i wanted to fix was the original author mentioned that buildings were destroyed during the Bolshivicks revolition however the biggest destruction came during and after WW2 ( blockade) --Jenny babaeva (talk) 05:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead, but just take into account two things. WP:V all the info should be referenced to reliable sources. "I know such and such types of crime flourish in such and such city regions" is not good as a source. Also the article is quite long so any significant expansion would probably go to a daughter article like Crime in Saint Petersburg. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few references however one of them is in different language. would that be a good source?--Jenny babaeva (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A mess

This page is a mess, even if compared with Moscow, especially as regards illustrations (most of which are picked on random and even lack captions). I'd like to see this page reverted to its 2005 or 2006 layout. Can anybody parse this wall of links:

Some of the most important neoclassical architects in Saint Petersburg (including those working within the Empire style) were Jean-Baptiste Vallin de la Mothe (Imperial Academy of Arts, Small Hermitage, Gostiny Dvor, New Holland Arch, Catholic Church of St. Catherine), Antonio Rinaldi (Marble Palace), Yury Felten (Old Hermitage, Chesme Church), Giacomo Quarenghi (Academy of Sciences, Hermitage Theatre, Yusupov Palace), Andrey Voronikhin (Mining Institute, Kazan Cathedral), Andreyan Zakharov (Admiralty building), Jean-François Thomas de Thomon (Spit of Vasilievsky Island), Carlo Rossi (Yelagin Palace, Mikhailovsky Palace, Alexandrine Theatre, Senate and Synod Buildings, General Staff Building, design of many streets and squares), Vasily Stasov (Moscow Triumphal Gate, Trinity Cathedral), Auguste de Montferrand (Saint Isaac's Cathedral, Alexander Column). The victory over Napoleonic France in the Patriotic War of 1812 was commemorated with many monuments, including Alexander Column by Montferrand, erected in 1834, and Narva Triumphal Gate.

Helpful, eh? This is a sad example that the quality of articles in Wikipedia is eroded as often as it is improved. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bulleted list might be better

I found that list a little hard to read as well. I wonder if a bulleted list would be more appropriate? Something like this:

Some of the most important neoclassical architects in Saint Petersburg (including those working within the Empire style) were

and, while we're at it, why not put them in alphabetical order:

Some of the most important neoclassical architects in Saint Petersburg (including those working within the Empire style) were

--CaritasUbi (talk) 10:05, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gay Culture Not Mentioned

Moscow and St. Petersburg are the two centers for gay life in Russia. I hope mention of this is added and some other relevant information can also be added to the demographics section. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 08:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh - I guess this is because St Pete and Moscow are the biggest cities in RF .Umm - Why it should be added to the demograplics section ? - This is the article about St Pete in general, not about all aspects of the City's life . (Hellinalj (talk) 12:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Gay culture in Russia is rare, except in these two major cities. I feel it would be a good idea to note that, and to have any available statistics about the number of gays and lesbians. I'm not asking to add a whole section, but it seems just as relevant as the racial stats or the mention of shared flats and should be noted. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 06:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "Demoscape0163" :
    • Чистякова Н. [http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2004/0163/tema01.php Третье сокращение численности населения... и последнее?] ''Демоскоп Weekly'' 163 — 164, August 1-15, 2004.
    • Чистякова Н. [http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2004/0163/tema01.php Третье сокращение численности населения... и последнее?] ''Демоскоп Weekly'' 163 – 164, August 1-15, 2004.

DumZiBoT (talk) 05:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sports in St. Petersburg

Why is there a separate article link (a "Main article: Sport in Saint Petersburg" link)? If you follow that link it's the exact same text as what appears on this article. The only difference is a couple different links and a different picture of the stadium. I feel like the separate article is unnecessary unless it adds something.Deleteyourself16 (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image Image:Mariinsky Original Tsars Box.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --01:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Europe's fourth largest city?

What about Istanbul? It is listed in Wikipedia as having more than 11 million inhabitants which would put it before London. -- 92.230.31.23 (talk) 20:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to this article, Istanbul seems to be the third largest city on Earth if taking the population of the city itself and that of the metropolitan area into account. That means that according to the figure given in the article cited above, Istanbul would be the largest city in Europe, even surpassing London, Moscow and Paris. So, either the Petersburg article is talking about the population of the city proper and using the same rationale for Istanbul, or the person who wrote that statement did not view Istanbul as a European city. I'll leave that to others to decide... Vargher (talk) 22:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any data available on the division of Istanbul population between the Asian and the European part of the city? --Humanophage (talk) 15:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See also

Let me analyze each of the links there. There are different type of trivia and I a msimply against the removal of the whole section. Thanks, Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked each link in the three bullet point "see also" section, I think they are very valid to stay as they are: a "see also". Why do you want to remove them? Don't you think that anyone really interested in Saint Petersburg will want to hear about the treaties signed on it? Or maybe go a collect a unique coin that celebrates its 300th anniversary? They are just links, and the section is very small, I do not see the need of a complete removal. Regards, Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unique??? Here are other commemorative coins dedicated to the same event: ru:300-летие основания Санкт-Петербурга. And the article is not about the 300th anniversary of the city, it is about the city itself. Colchicum (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my three years of Russian in high school were not enough to be able to read the article you posted. Don't you really think that a single line to talk about 300 years anniversary celebration is worth to be mentioned? Not even in the See also section?
About the anniversary -- maybe. But not about a coin dedicated to the anniversary, not even in the see also section. Colchicum (talk) 15:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the information about the commemorative coin and Ves Petersburg is not encyclopedic for this article. Neither the coin nor the directory is unique. Why is it singled out? Because some time ago the authors of the pages in question decided to spam this article in order to get incoming links. If we systematically include such information, the article will be several GB long. The Treaty of Saint Petersburg is merely a disambiguation page and the link certainly shouldn't be there. Colchicum (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is WP:POV, I believe each link there is valid and I do not see the reason of removal of such a small section. What is the "see also" section for then? Why do you mean by "is not encyclopedic"? They are just links related to the current article; if they were not encyclopedic those linked articles should be removed. Try to understand that we have any sort of readers in Wikipedia, people with different ages, cultural backgrounds, appetite for information ... etc. For you the list of treaties may sound obvious, for others may not; and again it is a simple link so readers have more information about this city. I really do not understand what is the whole deal and why you want to remove it. Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saint Petersburg is the 4th largest city in Europe, there are billions of notable facts related to Saint Petersburg. Not all of them merit inclusion, however. Colchicum (talk) 15:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, that is WP:POV, they are just links to valid facts and does deserve to be mentioned. If you want to continue to remove the whole section, and since it seems like we are going to reach no agreement, you will have to build WP:consensus. Miguel.mateo (talk) 15:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:POV is what you are trying to do: to single out these facts from among bilions of others. Colchicum (talk) 15:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


We have not reached any WP:consensus on this topic. Please stop removing content that others think is valuable. I am open for a discussion here. Thanks, Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Others? So far you have been the only one who thinks that it should be kept. Here is your discussion, above. You have refused to discuss the isuues. Thanks. Colchicum (talk) 14:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The information was there, and you removed it, I am against it, what consensus is that so you keep removing it? Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't have any consensus to add your information, did you? I removed it, Russavia removed it, others will remove it. Colchicum (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To make the things clear, the information wasn't there, you have created Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (Finland) and have been insisting that it be placed in the See also section. You need a consensus to keep it there, the same with Amorfati00 (talk · contribs) and Ves Petersburg. Colchicum (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You removed the whole section, that was there when I started to look over the article. I added one sentence, and you are not talking about that particular sentence. you have not even mentioned to remove just my contributions. You are just reverting everything I do here, including trying to keep the whole "see also" section. You conversation with your friend is not cool either. And this conversation will be going no where if you are not willing to compromise. Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, this is a blatant lie. Russavia is not my friend, I contacted him after he had edited out the section independently of me. I have never reverted your edits, I have only trimmed down the section, because its content was inappropriate. I don't care about your edits in general. And you are not willing to compromise, you, Miguel. You just blindly defend your position. Colchicum (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Colchicum asked me to comment on the situation, so here are my two cents. As WP:SEEALSO states, the primary reason of the "See also" section is to collect relevant links that would otherwise be incorporated into the article's body were the article to be perfect. "See also" sections are normally used in less developed articles and provide useful pointers to the directions into which the article should eventually expand. Saint Petersburg, undoubtedly, is not a perfect article, but it can hardly be classified as "less developed". It is not that difficult to incorporate whatever links appear in the "see also" section into the text. Treaties should be covered in the History section (or, better yet, in History of Saint Petersburg, as the History section is meant to be a general overview). The coin reference can go altogether (it is no more special than hundreds of other similar coins), or be moved to the article about the city's 300th anniversary. The list of consulates is already linked to from the article (although I would question that the lead is the best place for it), so it should be removed per WP:SEEALSO as well. I am not sure where a link to Ves Petersburg would fit best, but the article about the city's history seems a fairly adequate place. So on and so forth. The bottom line is that at this point the article is surely long enough that we don't have to clutter it with random links in the "See also" section, because it is not that difficult to introduce those links from the appropriate portions of the article (or its subarticles).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to post my opinion here, but won't as it mirrors Laski's Ezhiki's opinion perfectly. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 14:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly the type of discussion that I am looking for, this is the type of discuussion that I have insisted to have every time I revert your removals; and this is exactly the way to compromise, not by just removing the whole section. If the problem is the name "See also" then let's call it something else, like "other topics". But you and I know that would not make sense either. I have no issue applying for the changed that Ezhiki sugested; but I am sure that if I do you will revert them again. Miguel.mateo (talk) 14:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same as Russavia, Ezhiki's has expressed it very well, the links need to be added to the relevant articles instead of piled up on the "see also" section (simply renaming to "other topics" doesn't help, as it's just like adding a "trivia" or a "in popular culture" section).
About the coin, I'll say it doesn't like like a notable coin. Miguel, you have been very involved on the finnish coin article, this creates you a bit of conflict of interest and affects your view on whether links to that article should be added or not (this is just an observation, please don't take this as an offence). Please back from the dispute and let other editors decide it if the link should stay. If it's really relevant to the article, it will eventually be added. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know I am one of the main contributors to the Finnish article, that is not my point, if the consensus is "the coin is not relevant" it will be gone, period, I have no issues with that. This is not what I am standing for here. The whole "See also" section was removed without consensus, it is still removed, and those links that IMO are very relevant to Saint Petersburg are no longing showing; and as expected, I went to sleep and no one did the changes suggested to include them back in the article.
If there is a team of editors that carefully watch an article and they decided what information fits in and what doesn't, for me that is also consensus. But this is not the case here. Go to the article history and find out in the last month or so who has been one of the most active editors removing vandalisms or challenging unsourced material. So if at least four people are OK to have the whole "see also" section removed (against my opinion), I have no problems with that either, and I no longer see the need for me to watch over the article as I have done for more than a month now.
End results:
  • Consensus is "no see also" section, links no longer shown.
  • There is a good team of people watching over this article.
  • I am no longer part of that team, hence will not get involved with this article anymore (since obviously my opinion is not valid).
Good luck and regards, Miguel.mateo (talk) 23:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Ezhiki. See also should be used sparingly especially for the top level articles as Saint Petersburg, otherwise we could seealso half of wikipedia. We have categories, we have daughter articles, we can put links in the text; see also is actually a line of last rezerve. IMHO only the three lists should be left as now and in future all of them should be incorporated into the text Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

list of consulates is unnecessary and adds too many images

So, I removed the sister city list because it was too long (see Talk:Saint_Petersburg#merge_of_list_of_sister_cities_of_saint_petersburg) and now a consulate list has appeared. The list adds nothing to the encyclopedic value of the article, it's non-notable, and, apparently, the city itself considers it of so little importance that has not listed its consulates on any official page. That St. Petersburg has a lot of consulates is probably notable because of whatever the reason that they decided to put make so many of them. However, listing every single consulate is plain useless, wastes spaces, and adds dozens of small images to the load of the page, which burdens users with slow connexions (each image is an extra connection to the server). We should apply Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons)#Do_not_use_too_many_icons (previously known as WP:FLAGCRUFT) and remove the list from the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree, a small paragraph mentioning how may consulates and a link to a new article "List of consulates in Saint_Petersburg" would do in my opinion. However, do not remove the list, let's just move itt. Thanks, Miguel.mateo (talk) 09:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea with making a separate article, that will solve the problem of having too many images on this article. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hope is better now ... Miguel.mateo (talk) 02:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. It still needs cleanup for compliance with the manual of style guideline at WP:SEEALSO --Enric Naval (talk) 18:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The list has existed for a long time at Diplomatic missions in Russia, and we don't cover honorary consulates, so I have redirected the list. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 10:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saw the change, makes absolute perfect sense to me. Thanks, Miguel.mateo (talk) 10:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

O, soviet mio!

Are there any gondoliers in Leningrad? How long are the canals frozen every year? 82.131.210.162 (talk) 09:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LOL No, there are no gondoliers in Leningrad Petersburg. Nobody just don't thought about it never. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.93.176.70 (talk) 07:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, the canals are frozen from December to April - about five months.--91.122.10.12 (talk) 10:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, from December (or even the second half of November) to April. But rather normally than usually, because the latest winters (except of the current one) were so warm that canals were frozen only in February and March. Climate in St. Petersburg is tricky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.73.122 (talk) 23:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are actually gondolas in Leningrad, read here: [10]
Here are some photos of Leningrad gondolas from 2005:

[11] 82.131.210.163 (talk) 19:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some corrections and additions to main article

From Imperial Statistical Bureau statistics one can see the population figures for St.Petersburg on January 14, 1914 (January 1, 1914), the last non communist population figures shown by Imperial Russia. Inside then admistrative borders of the city, lived about 1.500.000 legal inhabitants. Of these majority, nearly 90 per cent were ethnic Russians, but from the total population about 10 per cent 150.000 were Finnish (93.000) and Estonians (56.000) who had their own schools and churches in the city. In addition there were also unknown number of so called "Black Finns", their number varies from 15.000 to 30.000 who worked there without offical permission to be registered as the "Petarers". They just walked over the internal border of Imperial Russia and the Grand Duchy of Finland and came the way or other inside the adminstrative borders of St.Petersburg to work there in Russian companies without legal status as being registered inhabitant of St.Petersburg. The Finns and Estonians formed the largest ethnic minorities in St.Petersburg. They published their own Finnish and Estonian language newspapers and were (about 90 per cent) two language speakers, many of them three language speakers, using also Russian language and Swedish language. Those Finns who worked on Suomen Valtionrautatiet SVR (Finland´s State Railways) had to speak Russian, Swedish and Finnish languages before entering into service of SVR. In addition to Baltic Finns minority there lived also Swedes, Germans, and British, the last mentioned mainly in Vasili Island. The north side of Neva was called Viborg Side and south side Moscow Side of St.Petersburg. The Finns lived usually on the Viipurin puoli (Viborg side), and Estonians around Baltic Railway station area, located south west of the city. These minorities are usually not mentioned in Soviet history at all. After the Peace treaties of Tartu in 1920, most of the Estonian and Finnish population of Petrograd moved back to Estonia and Finland. But many stayed, being married with the Russians and took the new Soviet citizenship from May 1, 1921. Those Finns who had the passport of the Grand Duchy of Finland had to decide if to stay and become new SovietRussia´s citizens or keep their Finnish passports and move back, to the date April 1,1921. My mother´s parents, both third generation Finnish "Petarers" decided to leave from Petrograd, but my grand mother´s two sisters, married with ethnic Russian men, both honourable former "Crown Servants" decided to stay with their common children. Terijoki was not a town in 1939, just ordinary Finnish church village belonging to Kivennapa commune in Karelian Isthmus. This should be corrected in the article. The place being famous and well known of the villas of the Russian nobel families and rich bourgerous people. There lived also many higher level "Crown Servants" during summer time in their villas. These villas become usually known as "Datshas of the Rich People" among the St.Petersburg working class. Russian well known painter Ilja Repin had his own villa at Kuokkala, southern part of Terijoki. The yacht club of Terijoki and its long sand beaches become popular summer sunday excursion destinations. for those Russians who had the internal passport to show at Valkeasaari passport and custom controlling place. Siestarjoki / Systerbäk / Sestrotresk, before 1860 part of Kivennapa in Grand Duchy of Finland but transfered inside the Ingermanland had on 01.01.1914 only 3.000 inhabitants. There was "crown owned" rifle factory and famous spa on the mouth of Siestarjoki Siestar River. Population was Russian workers of the Sestrotresk Fifle factory and Finns who had lived there. Schlesselburg had 7.000 inhabitants, Hatsina 18.000 inhabitants, Peterhof 9.500 inhabitants, Tsarskoje Selo 18.000 inhabitants. Most of the population in villages around St.Petersburg were Ingermanlanders, ethnic Finns which formed the majority of the population of so called Sweden´s Ingermanland around St.Petesburg. "Peter was born and St.Petersburg was founded", wrote Voltaire, Pushkin who was an realist, added ironically to Voltaire´s text "yes, in the middle of large Finnish bogs". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.86.60 (talk) 04:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is pretty interesting information, but can you explain what exactly do you want to add to the article? And can you provide sources? Hellinalj (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Petersburg Twin Towns, Sister Cities

Hi, I did read through the history of the talk page, and thought that the Sister Cities had been removed because it was unsourced. As this list now appears to have numerous sources on the List of twin towns and sister cities in Russia article, I thought I would take this information, reformat it's appearance (to fit in better on this page) and add it to the article. I have been doing some work on 'Twin Towns and Sister Cities' sections in the last couple of months, and have found that most town and city articles usually have this information on the main page. Sorry if I have trodden on any toes... Marek.69 talk 20:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are other reasons to keep the list in a separate article. First, the information doesn't seem particularly notable and relevant. I am from St. Petersburg, yet I can barely name two or three sister cities (Rotterdam, Turku, ...?) and don't care about educating myself. I assure you that most St. Petersburgers know and care even less. The fact that a city is a sister city of St. Petersburg has no bearing on the real life. I understand that on Wikipedia there are people passionately interested in such lists, but I am afraid that your interest is not shared by the vast majority of our readers and other Wikipedians. Note that the article is already large enough. The lists of universities, consulates and so on have also been split off, though they are much more important in this sense. Next, in the case of St. Petersburg for one reason or another the list happens to be particularly large. It is ridiculuous and ugly when such a list with all its bright little flags and so on takes up 10-20% of the article's space. On the other hand, if somebody is really interested in this kind of stuff, he can always proceed to the article List of twin towns and sister cities in Russia. Note that it is always very difficult and impractical to maintain the same list in more than one place. Once your attention is diverted, the lists inevitably start to diverge. Colchicum (talk) 21:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Colchium has expressed it very well. Saint Petersburg's article is different from other city articles because it has such a huge amount of sister cities (Even Moscow has less sister cities!). About divergence, Moscow's list was already diverging, I found two sources that had been added on the article but not on the list page[12]. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well said Colchium. IMHO also, the list is ugly and useless. Why do you put on this page? Why? Nobody needs to know this. [removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by PanthaV (talk • contribs) 18:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't throw accusations around unless you have proof, and please present the accusations on the user's talk page and not here. He has already read your warning, so I'm removing it. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

new buildings in Saint Petersburg

Please, someone add pictures of modern buildings to this article. I do not want this city to be represented in world's view only as an ancient town with ancient buildings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.181.102.22 (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You added images such as this one which have no encyclopedic value, they do not support the text in the article and they do not have a caption. On top of that they don't have a source and the uploader was previously blocked for uploading similar copyrighted images.--Avala (talk) 15:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Spetersburg11.jpg

Crime section intro sentence

I am not that familiar with the wikipedia editing process, but the following sentence seems stylistically wrong: 

Russia historically had a high level of crime that increased significantly after the October revolution.

What's is "high"? Is that something you wiki guys refer to as weasel words? Given the size of the country in question, "high level" of anything is meaningless unless quantified. Especially when talked about in a period of time as long as a century. 122.102.185.215 (talk) 16:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian crime is just a big stereotype. It had increased after the collapse of USSR but lowed after the 1990ths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.73.122 (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weird projection in map

The map (Saint Petersburg In Europe.svg) is pretty weird in regard to its projection. Take a look at it, and see where Greece seems to be. Then, look at the coordinates for St Petersburg: around 30 degrees east. This is more east-ward than e.g. Karpathos (one of the more eastern islands of Greece, a bit east of Crete). But on the map, Greece looks to be eastward of St Petersburg.

So... the projection here seems kind of bad.

Is there a general policy on map projections on Wikipedia? Obviously, it would be good if most maps had the same projection... /PerLundberg (talk) 18:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a rough sketch map just used to show where St. Petersburg generally is, it definitively isn't accurate in any detail. Also it looks to be fixed for magnetic north somewhere above Novaya, which is sometimes done for 2D maps instead of pointing them to geologic north 99.236.221.124 (talk) 05:33, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Too Long"

How can any intelligent person figure this article is "too long"? Is crass stupidity now pervading wikipedia? 96.49.109.114 (talk) 21:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Given that only 54% voted to restore the old name, do any locals still call it Leningrad?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Older residents often refer to the city as Leningrad, and it even slips out every now and then in younger people's speech, too. On holidays related to World War II, the name Leningrad is used quite often. In addition, the main sign on the highway leading to St. Petersburg from the south says "Saint Petersburg" in large letters, and "Hero-City Leningrad" is written underneath. There are also monuments and memorial boards located everywhere that say "Leningrad". --Ericdn (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Copyrighted material removed

An IP added material from http://www.forumspb.com/mains/eng/ dated 13 January, 20:13 [from http://www.forumspb.com/mains/eng/]. As this appears to be copyrighted, I removed it. It's not clear it is appropriate content and tone (NPOV) for this article anyway. --MegaSloth (talk) 13:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of outright removing it, try rewording it. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 05:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

revisionist history: big lies and ref #23

During World War II, Leningrad was besieged by Nazi Germany and co-belligerent Finland.[23]

Ref 23 is bogus.

Finland was treated by STALIN as a belligerent at Yalta although attacked TWICE by the Soviets.

Will we say next, with NAZI propaganda, that Poland started World War II ?

This kind of outrage, claiming that Finalnd was a BELLIGERENT in WWII let alone a co-belligerent of the Nazis, is what gives wikipedia such a bad rep.

It is the fallacy of "translation" being promoted by some very naive wp backers: history is often written by the victors. We will not take Turkish articles about Armenia and translate them; we can not take old Soviet or Nazi propaganda and recycle it as historical fact.

That Finland was treated as an enemy of the Allies at the end of WWII is part of the travesty that was Yalta (actually a fate determined at the Tehran Conference - the price we had FInalnd pay for the West being an ally to Stalin after Barbarrosa - a genuine Naxi co-belligerent emerges victorious.)

And no I am not Finnish, have no Finnish relatives or in-laws, have never been there, do no business with any Finnish firm and do not speak Suomi nor am I a student of Finnish culture, language or history.

It is our great good fortune that Finland has accepted ceding so much territory to bellicose USSR - it remains an outrage that the USSR did not make reparations for attacking Finland.

But revisionist history is some of the worst bullshit that is floated about.

An alternate reference to replace #23 might be to use Manchester Guardian (1st December, 1939) 

 "Russia invaded Finland early yesterday morning, and at once began to try to enforce submission by air attacks."

G. Robert Shiplett 23:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

compare German article to this article on the Siege

The German article at de.wikipedia.oeg makes no such outrageous claim as to "co-belligerent" Finland.

The article in de.wp on the seige is very clear: " Im August, zu Beginn des Fortsetzungskrieges, hatten die Finnen den Isthmus von Karelien zurückerobert und rückten östlich des Ladogasees durch Karelien weiter vor, wodurch sie nun Leningrad im Westen und Norden bedrohten. Die finnischen Truppen hielten jedoch an der alten finnisch-russischen Grenze von 1939. Das finnische Hauptquartier wies deutsche Bitten um Luftangriffe gegen Leningrad zurück und rückte nicht weiter südlich über den Swir (160 Kilometer nordöstlich Leningrads) ins besetzte Ostkarelien vor. "

What is outrageous in our article on the seige is that the "background" neglects to mention the Soviet invasion of Finland and the Finns horrific losses and their heroism. There is not even a hint that the Soviets had ever even posed a threat!

Note that the neutrality of that section of that article is under dispute. G. Robert Shiplett 00:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

City Scape (Scyscrapers)

It isn't correct to say that there are no skyscrapers in Saint's Peterbug. Actually, there are at least two modern buildings of height above 100 meters which thus may be termed "skyscrapers" according to the Emporis standards (see here - http://standards.emporis.com/?nav=realestate&lng=3&esn=24419). You may look for the details of these buildings here - http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&lng=3&id=atlanticcity-streetpetersburg-russia and here - http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&lng=3&id=bogatyrskyprospekt2-streetpetersburg-russia Also it shall be mentioned that several other skyscrapers are under construction now, wherein the highest one will be 140 meters high (unfortunately, it seems that all available prooflinks are in Russian). All mentioned skyscrapers are not widely known just because that they are situated/constructed outside the historical center of Saint-Petersburg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.170.94.18 (talk) 09:15, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Error in the Statistics rubric

There is an error in the "Statistics" rubric: in the line "Rank in Russia", the population of Saint Petersburg is ranked as 4th in Russia -- based on a reference to the wikipedia page "List of Federal Subjects of Russia" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_subjects_of_Russia_by_population>. This list refers to administrative regions and areas of the country, not to cities. In this list, the population of St Petersburg is compared to that of areas in Russia the size of France, etc. Instead, the population Saint Petersburg should be compared to that of cities: this wiki page is about the city of St Petersburg. The proper wikipedia page for reference is: "List of cities and towns in Russia by population" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_and_towns_in_Russia_by_population> And in accordance to this page, the rank of the city in the "Rank in Russia" line should be changed to "2nd".

AY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.170.101 (talk) 17:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Essen

Where do they get Essen as the fifth-biggest city in Europe? According to the city's own wikipedia page, that's not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.250.118 (talk) 02:33, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

climate

I guess there is a mistake in st. petersburg climate section - low and highs seem way to warm in winter. 24.6.2.215 (talk) 05:20, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Add Finnish spelling of city name

The Finnish spelling ca.1905 was Pietarissa. Finnish postal artifacts and documents from this era often include this spelling, but an English Wikipedia search finds absolutely nothing. One has to search on Google and that then finds a Finnish Wikipedia page which one has to translate. It would be really nice to add this spelling to cut out all that.

I am not doing it myself as I am not familiar enough with the protocol or appropriateness of doing so.

JaySmithWiki (talk) 20:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary, only the spellings in particularly relevant languages are added to the articles. A Finnish spelling would be inappropriate here. I have, however, created a redirect at Pietarissa, which should address a good chunk of your concerns. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); May 20, 2011; 20:56 (UTC)
The name is (and was) Pietari, not Pietarissa. Pietarissa means 'in St. Petersburg'. Colchicum (talk) 21:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Spb collage.JPG Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Spb collage.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011
What should I do?
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exact Official Dates of Name Changes

If anyone knows the exact dates of any of the city's name changes, please provide them. The issue comes up for instance in asking whether Anatoly Sobchak was ever mayor of Leningrad or only of St. Petersburg. Thanks. CountMacula (talk) 04:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Silly map orientation

The map is really weird because the North is not on top, not even close. The direction of North should at least be marked with an arrow or something. Or better yet, the map should be rotated. --77.86.195.192 (talk) 23:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Does anyone know how to fix it? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This map is an extract from this bigger map, so rotating that bigger map in such a way that the top of the area around St. Petersburg points north and then re-cropping the image should fix the problem. I'd do it myself, but I currently don't have the tools.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 25, 2011; 13:21 (UTC)


About governors

Cite on Matviyenko: "She was the only woman governor in the whole of Russia till her resignation on August 22, 2011" What about Natalya Komarova? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalya_Komarova

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Saint_Petersburg&oldid=453983963"