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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HammerFilmFan (talk | contribs) at 19:02, 21 October 2011 (→Khamenei's Personal Wealth: 36 Billion Dollars). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

HE IS ORIGINALLY FROM TAFRESH NOT TABRIZ

the father's grandfather of ali khamenei (seyed mohamad) has migrated from tafresh in today markazi province to khamene in tabriz. only his grandfather ( seyed husain ) was born in Tabriz also his father( seyed javad ) was born in najaf.he is originally from tafresh not azarbayjan. according to these www.irdc.ir/fa/content/1024+4734/default.aspx www.shia-online.ir/article.asp?id=17262&cat=1THANKS.--31.56.29.107 (talk) 21:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC)mohamad I removed his azeri style name 31.56.0.198 (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Opium Use

I don't see anything pertaining to Khamenei's opium use. Can someone add that ASAP!? Nostalgia of Iran (talk) 17:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Black turban

I have notice that Khamenei seems to be the only Islamic cleric with a black turban in Iran. Can someone explain why? Can others be defrocked by the Special Clerical Court for wearing a black turban?--71.108.3.62 (talk) 11:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, the black colour shows that the wearer is a descendant of Muhammed http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080719131028AAM1a6D 87.59.79.5 (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And claiming descent from Muhammad seems to be a sort of tradition for Middle Eastern leaders anyway. Everyone does it! Aadieu (talk) 21:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes,that's true. any cleric who is a descendant of prophet Muhammad wears black turban,and Ali Khamenei is not the only one.THISISME! 15:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Wearing black turban means being a decendent of prophet Muhammad but not everyone can claim that he is one cuz if someone is one he should have "seyyed" or "mir" before his first name in his birth certificate or "seyyede" or "sadat" if it's a she.to be a "seyyed" your father should be one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neosaviourone (talk • contribs) 19:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spouse's name

Since there is no source for "Mrs. Khojasteh," I think it is better to put Mrs. Khamenei[1] back.--71.108.3.62 (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Muslim women do not take their husband's surname. "Mrs Khamene'i" is definitely wrong. ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sticking in an alternative to Mrs Khojasteh, which seems weird because it's like she's married to a Mr Khojasteh, by using the Persian term banu. It's sort of like Mrs, but she's not really "Mrs" Khojasteh... ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 04:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Azeris are Turks

Here is Hossein Shariatmadari who says, "The Supreme Leader [Ayatollah Ali Khamenei] is a Turk, he's Azeri."[2]

This may be why George W. Bush and many American officials don't mention his name. Khamenei name is generally a taboo; they can't say he is a Persian dictator oppressing ethnic minorities in Iran. I won't add my last statement to the article because then others might accuse me of doing original research.

Khamenei is an Arab—as a sayyid—and probably a descendent of the Seljuqs.--71.118.43.47 (talk) 02:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Observation: Kurds are Persians, but if you refer to a Kurd as "a Persian", it's inaccurate. Sometimes the local ethnicity trumps the larger one. In this article it has caused confusion - I can personally attest to people who were misled by the statement that he was Turkish and thought he was a Turkish citizen. Given the established nature of the Iranian Azeri community, we should respect consensus and leave it listed as such.ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do say about Turkic peoples?--71.118.43.47 (talk) 03:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The same issue comes up all the time on Wikipedia. You could list everyone who is a Kurd as an Iranian, but all you'd get would be angry people, and it wouldn't make you right. Azeris are Turkish - like French people are Europeans and and Chinese people are Asian. ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 03:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Like Africans are American. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 20:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Azeris are not ethnically Turks actually. It doesn't take a genius to realize that they have nothing in common with Turks, apart from their language. Ethnically they are more similar to other ethnic groups in Iran, especially the Iranian Kurds (not the Iraqi or Turkish Kurds though) and the Persians. On top of that, their nationality is Iranian. Azeris see themselves as Iranians first and foremost, and then Azeri second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC) I think there is a strong desire in the Republic of Turkey to claim as many people as Turkish as they can. After the fall of the Caliph in Baghdad until 1258 then restarted in 1517 by the Turkish Sultan and to be such must be from the same tribe as Mohammed (PBUH) the Quraysh tribe but that aint no Turkish tribe so either No Caliphate or No Linage of Turkish origin . Iran and Others do the same with Sayyid and claim to be one ethnicity and also decedent of Mohammed (PBUH)an Arab Hezzbolah claims Khamenei is ARAB for this very reason. That girl on the Iranian Peoples page is hot!---- Nate Riley 16:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many children does he have?

According to the information on the left side of the page, it says that he has 6 children. But in 'Personal Life' it states that he has 7 children. So how many exactly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papongza (talk • contribs) 10:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any sources for 7 children, and searches for the children's names just come up with mirrors of this page, so I have edited to use the cite for 6 children. Bigger digger (talk) 10:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mykonos assassinations

"On 10 April 1997 , Berlin's highest criminal court issued an international arrest warrant, and with knowledge Ali Khamenei because ordered attack on the Mykonos restaurant assassinations"

This sentence is incoherent and makes no sense. Dumaka (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you'll be pleased to see I've re-written it! Bigger digger (talk) 09:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence makes perfect sense to anyone who speaks English, it does not however point to any reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cardinal700 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where's

his infamous quote about wiping Israel from the pages of history? ArdClose (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sweetheart, I think that was someone else! --♥pashtun ismailiyya 23:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, that was him, Ahmadinejad paraphrased the Khamenei-ism that Isreal must "vanish from the pages of time" of something to that effect. In short, both men have said it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lao1992 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 23 June 2009

Does Ali Khamenei speak Azeri?

Does Ali Khamenei speak Azeri? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.232.9.213 (talk) 14:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 07:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Women's rights

In the "Interpretations of Islam" section, the article states that Khamenei has supported women's rights. However, the citation is to a dead link. If a citation is not provided, I will remove the statement because the sentence immediately preceding it seems to contradict it. Tayl1257 (talk) 13:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sunni Mosque in Tehran

This section states that Asia Times reported that a Sunni mosque has not been built in Tehran because of opposition from Khamenei. However, the article actually merely quotes a Tehrani grocer who says that Khameini did not authorize the building of the mosque. The Asia Times is not stating that it verified or endorses the claim, nor does it speak of affirmative opposition from Khamenei (e.g., the Pres. may not have sought authorization). I therefore do not feel that the sentence as currently written reflects the content of the Asia Times article, and I will remove it in a few days unless someone reasonably objects. Tayl1257 (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you. This has been added to several articles, just because it is published in Asia time. It is irrelevant.--Parvazbato59 (talk) 17:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That the capital of Tehran and a metropolitan area of 14 some million does not have one sunni mosque is certainly significant.
It is true that the article quotes a resident of tehran rather than a government official, but note that the text qualifies the statement:
Khamenei is reported to oppose the building of a Sunni mosque in Iran's capital, Tehran. According to the Asia Times newspaper, reformist former president Mohammad Khatami gave Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's opposition as the reason he (Khatami) had not followed through on his campaign promise to allow the building of a Sunni mosque in Tehran.
I will add "according to a Tehran resident quoted by the Asia Times newspaper"
From the article: "When you meet Iranian officials in Tehran, ask them why they do not allow a Sunni mosque in Tehran, despite a good number of Sunnis living there? During the election campaign, President Mohammad Khatami had pledged to allow a Sunni mosque in Tehran. This was nothing but election sloganeering. After he won the elections, he was reminded of his promise but he said that the [Supreme] Leader [Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei had not agreed to the proposal." --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think BoogaLouie's alteration is good. Tayl1257 (talk) 04:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

God bless you, BoogaLouie!THISISME! 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Grand Ayatollah ?

In the german version of Wikipedia it is noted that Khamenei is not a grand ayatollah and it is explicitely referenced and explained why not. In the english version it is said that he is a grand ayatollah without reference. As the german reference explicitely states that he declined the title "grand ayatollah" in 1994 the passage in the english wikipedia is definitely wrong. If he is grand ayatollah, he became this after 1994.

The same failure is on some other pages, too. The german Wikipedia lists "significantly less" grand ayatollahs as the english wikipedia.

(kkilger) 14:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I support this statement. From different sources and discussions with Iranians I am 100% sure, that HE IS NOT GRAND AYATOLLAH! I urge wikipedia to change it !

129.206.185.111 (talk) 16:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

yes please remove that,HE IS NOT A GRAND AYATOLLAH! THISISME! 15:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Who gave you people the authority to say if he is grand ayatollah or not???? grand ayatollah is not a PhD honny!grand ayatollah is granted by other ayatollahs in shia and they GAVE him the lable. PLEASE don't say anything when you dont know nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neosaviourone (talk • contribs) 19:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Khameini and the 2009 June Elections in Iran

Can someone make a mention of the current regime's president (mahmoud ahmadnejad) and his alliance with khameini. I think it is worth mentioning because there is a significant feud erupting in Iran's political sphere, between the ahmadnejad+ khameini+basij+revolutionary guard versus the reformist camp rafsanjani, khatami, and mousavi..and most of the youth of iran. if anyone doubts the significance of the current controversial fraudulent elections of iran, they can find evidence on youtube of the mass number of protesters who campaigned against the corrupted election results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 03:22, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The number of killed people in protests after Iranian presidential election, 2009 is not true. "Iranian authorities had put the number of those killed in the post-election turmoil at 30." (presstv) Also, most of them have been killed by accident in riots or by MKO terrorists, not Iranian security forces, since they used no firearm. "The deputy police chief, Ahmad-Reza Radan, said the force had not used violence against protesters, rejecting any involvement in the killings, adding that the deaths were being investigated by the authorities." (presstv) "In Iran, MKO terrorists arrested in protests" (presstv) "Confirming four of the deaths, Iran's deputy police chief Ahmad-Reza Radan said one of the deceased fell from a bridge, two others were hit by cars while one other victim was shot dead by an unknown assailant." (presstv) Support of Khamenei from Ahmadinejad re-election is not true, even nobody knows Khamenei's vote in all elections. Mir-Hossein Mousavi, the leader of protesters in Iran, indicated this fact in FT interview: "Moussavi: He had no problems. He has an impartial position in the upcoming election. He mentioned this in his speech in Mashhad [late March] and repeated it to me. As we have had relatively extensive contacts discussing issues, the recent meeting was also very good and positive." (FT Interview: Mir-Hossein Moussavi) Karimi cae (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced info

I have removed the unsourced line "It is famous that he was initially a very unnoticable clergy who had to sell prayers and read Qur'an for money to survive." Please be aware that according to Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources a line like this should be removed forthwith and not reposted unless it is backed up by reliable sources. Debresser (talk) 19:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC) I read that and it wasnt NPOV.Talk to Magibon 14:27, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing the name. I'm newbie and i can't speak English correctly too. Mhosayn (talk) 12:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for removing the vandalism. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's Vandalized again99.247.60.143 (talk) 18:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Could someone please check the pronunciation of this name? As currently written, the stress is on the last syllable of each name: [ʔæˈli hosejˈni xɒmeneˈʔi]. This would be pronounced aLI hoseyNI khāmene’I. (In IPA, the stress mark goes BEFORE the stressed syllable.) This looks very doubtful to me, but I do not know the correct pronunciation. It seems more likely that the correct pronunciation might be [ˈʔæli hoˈsejni xɒmeˈneʔi] (Ali hoSEYni khāmeNE’i). Could someone who knows please check this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seberle (talk • contribs) 15:32, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The pronunciation is correct. In Persian/Farsi, almost all words are stressed on the final syllable. Languagehat (talk) 14:35, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

==

This is interesting. Thank you. It would seem the TV reports I am listening to are all pronouncing his name incorrectly.--seberle (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I don't know why announcers have no problem stressing French names correctly but don't seem to be able to do so with Persian. Languagehat (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Khamenei's policy towards universities and higher education in Iran

I suggest the following be added to domestic policy section


In a speech given in 2002 Kahemenei stressed that he was not satisfied with the performance of then minister of science and higher education, Mostafa Moeen since he had allowed students to pursue activities deemed against Islam in his point of view, such as practicing and studying music, arts traveling abroad to the land of non-believers and conducting field trips that were not religious in nature, in the speech Khamenei asks for stricter control on these issues urging the universities to enforce Islamic values.[68]

Iranian Judiciary system

What source did this come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.111.230.152 (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality dispute (POV)

There's a POV (see WP:NPOV) tag dated June 2009 on this article. What parts of the article does the tagger (or anybody else) have an issue with? Has everything been resolved? Thundermaker (talk) 13:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reports of Khamenei's death

It is reported today (Oct. 14) that Ali Khamenei has died. Now, I have no experience with the sources, but I think it is worth noting here in case more mainstream sources pick up this story.

Yes, there have been false reports in the past, so I am being careful not to state his death as fact.

1. I first heard it at antimullah.com. Story is here: "KHAMENEI REPORTEDLY DEAD!" http://noiri.blogspot.com/2009/10/khamenei-reportedly-dead.html

2. Another source dated Oct. 14 states: "Rumors that Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, has died began circulating yesterday in Tehran’s bazaar. Today, Iranian bloggers report an “abnormal atmosphere in the city” and increased presence of plainclothes agents in the capital."

The story is here: "Immortal Khamenei?" http://blog.american.com/?p=6148

3. Another source states that he is in a coma:

"IRAN: BLOGS STIRRING, "AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI IS IN COMA" http://www.agi.it/world/news/200910142114-cro-ren0072-iran_blogs_stirring_ayatollah_khamenei_is_in_coma

4. Early story, dated Oct. 13 on PajamasMedia.com:

"Khamenei Said to be in Coma" http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/10/13/khamenei-said-to-be-in-coma/

paul klenk talk 22:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be ample evidence that there are rumors of his death. Does that justify adding an "Unconfirmed death report" section? Thundermaker (talk) 23:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would think so. paul klenk talk 00:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ABC News and its Chief Washington Correspondent George Stephanopoulos have mentioned this rumor: http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/10/khamenei-in-coma.html paul klenk talk 00:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent handling of the rumors, Thundermaker. paul klenk talk 00:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to add: It's important that we do cover this rumor on the page -- as a rumor, because if we don't mention it, people who hear the rumor in other places will come here and insert it as fact. Thundermaker (talk) 02:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've added {{unconfirmed}} to the article to advise readers that the sources regarding Khamenei's supposed coma or near death situation are unconfirmed at present. I've also posted at WP:ANI advising that we may wish to preemptively protect the article. Dr. Cash (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We should definitely keep this out of the article until there is something more substantial. All the sources for this are blogs, except the AGI item which is based on those blogs. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and this is very weakly sourced so far. Very high probability of a hoax or baseless rumours. Offliner (talk) 05:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since Realite EU(http://www.realite-eu.org/site/c.9dJBLLNkGiF/b.2267931/k.BD8D/Home.htm), a highly regarded thinktank and agency, reported the high credibility of the rumors, I've added it to the article, although still stating that the origin is a rumor.
The Telegraph blog itself says: "...It is unconfirmed and turns out to be based on questionable sources... The source cited is the highly partial website AntiMullah." We really need to keep this material out of the article per WP:REDFLAG. Offliner (talk) 11:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but your claim to objectivism is incorrect. It is correct to state that there is a very popular rumor (surely if it contains some credibility according to sources) as long as it is reported as 'rumor' and not as 'fact'. With the philosophy of keeping wikipedia up to date and unbiased, I do not see how this addition will cause any harm to this article's integrity. I'm putting it back on and hope you agree.

Adding to this, I now see that not only the Telegraph, but Pravda, Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, IsraelNationalNews, Panorama, The North Star National and many others have all reported on it. Although exceptional, I truly do not see the hesitation to spread as a fact that a wide rumor is being purported in the mass media.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.224.255.103 (talk) 11:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article protected

Without commenting on the truth or otherwise of these rumours, we require better sources than blogs to be provided for such information before it goes into the article. I've temporarily protected the article to slow down the speculative IP edits; please look at our biographical articles policy and our reliable sources policy for guidance as to the sort of verification that is suitable. Thank you. EyeSerenetalk 12:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it is unacceptable to have a BLP tagged with the {{unconfirmed}} template. If the information is mere rumour and/or speculative remove it at once, instead of just adding a template saying that our article shouldn't be trusted! Abecedare (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A rumor can in itself be an important event. Does anyone doubt that there are widespread rumors about his death? Ledeen says: According to a bulletin from the Greens (Moussavi/Karroubi et al), there are widespread rumors in the Tehran Bazaar that Khamenei has died. The Greens say they cannot confirm it, but that there is an “abnormal atmosphere” in the streets, which almost certainly means there are more security people than usual. The bazaar will apparently be closed tomorrow, and perhaps Friday as well, pending developments. He doesn't give a link to that bulletin, but wouldn't that be a more reliable source (for the fact that there are widespread rumors in Iran) than blogs?--87.162.24.87 (talk) 14:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No mainstream news sources have reported about the rumours, meaning that they have not judged them as newsworthy. And neither should we, since Wikipedia's standards are not lower than mainstream sources'. Offliner (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To add:
  • Wikipedia is not a news publication and we don't need to report hourly/daily/weekly rumors. A rumor may be a notable news item but that that does not make it a notable encyclopedic content with respect to Khamenei.
  • Per WP:REDFLAG and WP:BLP we are required to be particularly careful when dealing with living subjects and exceptional claims. As long as a credible report doesn't report that "Khamenei is believed/confirmed" (not rumored) to be ill, in coma, or deceased, we should not add it to the article.
Wikipedia has been burnt in the past by jumping the gun; lets not become part of the story. Abecedare (talk) 14:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Abecedare, you have some very valid points, I still think this might be an exceptional case. But before I make that argument, I would like to educate myself about past events where Wiki editors jumped the gun. Can you give me a hint on where to look? Thundermaker (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See this and this for some related examples. Also read Wikipedia biography controversy for the incident that was the prime motivation for the eventual formulation of the WP:BLP policy. It's only fair that I also point to Kidnapping of David Rohde, where wikipedia kept out thinly sourced news of the kidnapping that turned out to be true. Abecedare (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An example of how the media covers "Death by Wikipedia" even if it lasts only a few minutes: [3]. Abecedare (talk) 03:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally the Khamenei death/coma rumour, and its original source, seem increasingly dubious. See this Guardian column. This and the 2007 incident may be worth adding at the Michael Ledeen article, but only one the dust settles and we are reasonably sure of all the facts (as well as we can). Abecedare (talk) 03:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Khamenei's Personal Wealth: 36 Billion Dollars

Could someone edit the page to include his wealth? Please also include the attempts to remove the majority of the funds from the country to Syria by way of Turkey, and the confiscation of the cash by Turkey.

Recent source from CNN: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-377512 == —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kliptic (talk • contribs) 01:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC) [reply]


Dictators for life don't HAVE personal wealth, they by definition sort of own the entire country. Sure, there is the occasional kleptocrat who rides into office to drain a country dry and then run for the hills, but Khamenei shows no indication of planning to ever leave, so the point is kind of moot. Aadieu (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Makhmalbaf's "Secrets of Khamenei's Life"

The filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf, who became something of a Green Movement spokesman in exile, has written an essay[4] (English translations here[5]) compiling many alleged details of Khamenei's life and personal routine, passed to him by sources in Iran. I think some of this material belongs in the article, though of course it would need to be appropriately dubified (e.g. "It is alleged that" or "Mohsen Makhmalbaf alleges that") until such time as it can be independently verified or refuted. Maybe the essay even warrants its own brief subsection, in order to sum up the picture it presents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mporter (talk • contribs) 05:32, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Peoples' Friendship University alumni?

RUDN (Peoples' Friendship University) page claims so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aadieu (talk • contribs) 21:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nuclear Fatwa

Okay so my edit correcting an unsourced claim about the existence of a fatwa on nuclear weapons was undone for being unsourced. Is it not the obligation of the original claim (that such a fatwa exists) to source itself? The cited reference (104) is to an editorial which references the alleged fatwa but provides no sourcing, and my research has shown no verifiable record of this fatwa; only of the original Iranian statement (from IAEA meeting) claiming its existence and upon which the editorial's claim is certainly made. Absent proof of its existence, why does this at least not deserve qualifying language?

Furthermore, the source cited for Iran's IAEA statement makes no mention of it and would therefore be an invalid source. Instead, it should be changed to [6]. --Memarshall (talk) 02:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rafsanjani

His election was largely influenced by Ayatollah Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani [7]

This text has been repeatedly added to the lead. [8] [9] [10] [11] Its addition seems suspicious. The notion is not discussed elsewhere in the article. The sentence is usually added without source or with sources that can't be used on Wiki. This is the first source that might qualify, except the source is not in English. What is the significance of this sentence, and is it properly supported by the referenced source? If it is OK, then add it back, but let's not link Rafsanjani twice in successive sentences. Gimmetrow 20:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it belongs in the lead, maybe not in the article at all. The sentence basically amounts to speculation about past political forces. If the supporting quotes in the BBC article (which I can't read either) came from Rafsanjani or Khamenei, perhaps those should be included in the Appointment as Supreme Leader section, which doesn't currently exist (the Appointment as Supreme Leader & disputed title of "Grand Ayatollah" section is 100% about the title, 0% about the appointment except how it relates to the title, probably should be split). Thundermaker (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sex segregationist activist

On the basis of his opposition that oppose "mixing of men and women"[12], Khamenei should be included in the sex segregation category.--478jjjz (talk) 17:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning that he opposes gender mixing in the article is fine. That doesn't mean it belongs in the categories. For an individual to be in that category, the individual should be well known for advocating it. That article includes one quote about it; it doesn't say that he is an "activist." OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please be serious. The guy is a supporter of sex segregation; this is incontrovertible.[13].--478jjjz (talk) 17:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not disputing that. There's a big difference between "supporter" and "activist." Furthermore, the quote in the article you provided says "unrestrained mixing of men and women," and says nothing further on the topic. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Khamenei is responsible for continuing gender segregation for the entire population of Iran (74M, more than 1% of the world's people). In that context, he is possibly the most notable world leader who supports it, and would belong in the category because of that. Thundermaker (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iran is more gender-segregated than Saudi Arabia? I find that difficult to believe. Also, WP:CATEGORY states: It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. There is no mention of his stance on gender-mixing in the article. The source mentioned earlier in this discussion used the phrase "unrestrained mixing," which is not exactly a hardcore stance. There's no mention in the Iran article about this, either. An article about women's rights in Iran notes that women are not treated equally by law, but does not mention gender mixing either. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: just found the Sex segregation in Iran article (which curiously does not seem to have any incoming links from Iran). Note that the second sentence of that article reads "Traditionally, sex segregation has always been a part of Iranian culture. " Why single out leaders who support a long-standing cultural tradition, especially if that leader is not strongly-associated (i.e., an "activist") with that position? OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not Khamenei supports gender segregation because it is a cultural tradition is non sequitur.--478jjjz (talk) 18:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's relevant because a leader in a country supporting a longstanding cultural norm is not particularly noteworthy. You have not proven that he is an activist or that he's notable for that position. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You want to dispute why he is a gender segregationist.
It is not entirely cultural; it is also a legal issue like the Salic law.--478jjjz (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The main point here is that there's no evidence that he is an activist or is particularly notable for his position on that. You're saying that given a political leader, we should add category tags for every single position they hold? That would pollute the categories with too many tangential links. OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slight change of opinion on my part -- Iran and Saudi Arabia should both be in the category. But the leaders, unless they made a notable change in their nation's policy, should not. Thundermaker (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is Khamenei a Twelver?

An IP editor recently asserted that Khamenei is a Twelver. It seems likely, since most Iranians are Shiites and most Shiites are Twelvers. But is there a reference (preferably from the Ayatollah himself), or is this a conclusion someone has drawn from his actions? It's also plausible that as a leader he maintains a position of ambiguity.

Is this issue controversial? If so, we need to remove the claim per WP:BLP until someone finds a reference. Thundermaker (talk) 14:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birthday

He is on the list of births for April 18, but the article states his birthday as 17 July. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.33.70 (talk) 04:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV "is a politician as the figurehead of the conservative establishment in Iran"

The word "figurehead" is both misleading and not neutral.

figurehead, def. 2 (Merriam Webster) a head or chief in name only

The term is misleading because it suggests that the person has a small amount of political influence. A cursory understanding of the Iranian political system reveals that the Supreme Leader has numerous powers, any one of which would be sufficient to make the term "figurehead" inappropriate.

In particular, Guardian_Council states that 6 of the 12 members of the Guardian Council are appointed by the Supreme Leader. Given the significant power of the Guardian Council, the Supreme Leader would not be a figurehead, even if he had no other powers or duties (which is not the case).

I have read that in some ways, the Supreme Leader of Iran has more power than the President of Iran. For example, the Supreme Leader does not stand for election, and his office is durable.

As a reasonable analogy, one might compare the Iranian Supreme Leader with the United States Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The Iranian Supreme Leader clearly has more power than the American Chief Justice, ...

This is egregiously both not NPOV and not accurate.

Expo1892 (talk) 04:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point.
BBC: He is widely regarded as the figurehead of the country's conservative establishment and has been described as one of the three defining influences of the revolution.
The BBC reference which uses "figurehead" seems to contradict itself in the same sentence, unless "establishment" and "revolution" refer to different things. The Iranian government refers to itself as "the revolution" a lot, so I hope BBC wouldn't confuse the issue.
I think that Constitutionally, the Supreme Leader is more powerful than the President because he has the power to dismiss the President.
I also take issue with the word "conservative". He's more liberal than Khomeni was. I would substitute "theocratic" but without a supporting ref it would be WP:OR.
How would you re-write it? Thundermaker (talk) 12:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Student at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow

I find it surprising that this article makes no mention of Khamenei's time as a young student in the Soviet Union.

See: [14] [15]

I'm unable presently to find mention of the exact years of his studies which I think would be appropriate to add to this article. Perhaps someone knows this information? Adlerschloß (talk) 04:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a little suspicious that the article uses the same wording as the book -- "studied as a youth". The fact was also added to Patrice Lumumba University last month, without a supporting reference. I found a discussion forum where somebody claims Khamenei and other participants of the 1979 revolution studied there. That leaves me wondering who sent them, surely not the Shah?
It seems a little contentious, no mention of it on his official bio. Thundermaker (talk) 11:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A google search shows many sources, including published books, making the same claim. The earliest I can find through a casual search is from 1999:
"Iran's current ruler, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is, like several other top officials of the Islamic Republic, a graduate of the Soviet Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow." [16] Enough credible sources make the claim that I can't imagine it could have been merely a mistake made once that was endlessly repeated, but the lack of specific details and lack of corroboration from Khamenei's official biography (indeed, the timeline given there seems to in fact leave no time at all during his youth that could have been spent in Moscow, if we take that information at face value) is very strange.
One can at least speculate that the leader of a government that describes itself in Islamic terms (but increasingly finds the actual clergy class themselves in opposition, with attacks on the regime sometimes framed in theological terms) might for domestic reasons not be keen to play up any connection to atheistic Marxism -- this despite Iran's very close ties since the Revolution with communist Cuba, and increasingly solidified alliance with socialist Venezuela.
Given the variety of sources that make this claim and the overall significance of this attendance if it is true, perhaps the article should mention in an appropriate section, with citations, something along the lines of: "Many sources state that Khamenei was enrolled as a student at Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow; however, his official biography makes no mention of this"?
This is all very mysterious but that's not necessarily surprising (I recall studying Ruhollah Khomeini in the past and finding that many of the most basic facts on his past and his family were heavily disputed with multiple competing claims). Adlerschloß (talk) 13:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The bio says he finished intermediate school in an "unprecedented" 5.5 years, then it picks up in 1957 when he's 18. If he started intermediate school at 9-10 that would leave enough time afterward to go to University and graduate at 18. This might be a good time to look at a primary source -- the school itself -- for corroboration. Graduation records for 1956-58. Unfortunately I don't speak Russian. (The "Literary scholarship" section here makes no mention of Khamenei speaking it either, which he would if he lived in Moscow for 4 years.)
I did the google search and got a lot of blog pages. But when I limit the search to books, I see many of them make the same claim. If you can cite multiple, notable, non-fringe books I'm OK with the "many sources" wording. Thundermaker (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Insulting the Supreme Leader

Ali Khamenei is the Supreme Leader of Iran. Should dissidents who are jailed for "insulting the Supreme Leader" be mentioned on this page, simply because their crime involved statements about Khamenei? We need to reach a consensus to avoid an edit war over Arash Sigarch. Thundermaker (talk) 16:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mohammad Nourizad

Nourizad was arrested, lashed, and jailed after writing and publishing a letter to Khamenei criticizing his handling of the 2009 elections. The official charges were "spreading propaganda against the clerical establishment and insulting the country's leaders" according to AP. Does that bear mention in this article? Thundermaker (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naming style

One user keeps adding the latin Azeri version of this guy's name to the introduction. This figure is an Iranian figure and the official language is Persian and therefore his introduction is based on the official language. Additionally the Iranian Azeris, are not the same as the newly created previously USSR included nation of Azerbaijan. The author Талех insists on writing this figure's name in the version that is essentially the Azerbaijani (the country and not the Iranian Azerbaijani) fashion, which is not appropriate as this is an article regarding the country of Iran and one of its figures who did not even live in provinces of Azerbaijan but is alleged to be "half" of that ethnicity. I also believe that POV is at play here.

Additionally, this figure is not even fully Azerbaijani and to cite ONLY his Azeri pronunciation in a foreign dialect and version (latin vs. the utilized perso-arabic) is POV and inappropriate. There is really NO NEED in English wikipedia to litter the article with Nationalistically motivated jargon version of a figure's name. All a user has to do is click on the other language page versions and read the article in German, French, Turkish, etc. to see how their name would look. That being said I have reverted the change made by User Талех and have left a message on his page explaining it. Dr. Persi (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do not click on the individual. I repeat one last time. The template is placed native languages​​, rather than public. I suggest you put down Azeri Persian-Arabic script and Azeri Latin. I would like to add that the Azeris of Azerbaijan, Iran, Dagestan and Georgia, one nation with one language, rather than different groups of people. Perso-Arabic for Caucasian Azerbaijanis [17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28] What do you think about this? Талех (talk) 16:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I think you are missing the point. It is not about his ethnicity. Also your English makes little sense. "Do not click on individual?" The point made is that his name should be in Perso-Arabic script if at all, and that your addition is a foreign nation's lettering. I am going to revert your change, but I give up as it seems you are unable to understand the piont. Besides, just because you are giving me articles with links to people who are from Nation of Azerbaijan does not mean it is the same as being from Province of Azerbaijan. You are confusing the two, it seems! Dr. Persi (talk) 02:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want to mix the Azeri nation and the region of Azerbaijan in Iran. In the original name is added to the name in the native language of the person. Ali Khamenei, speaks two languages ​​as a native. I put the Azeri Persian-Arabic script first, and the Latin second. You may not agree with me. I gave the example that the Azeris of Azerbaijan are also used azerbaydzhaskaya Persian-Arabic script, although there Azeri Latin. Талех (talk) 07:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He is Persian

According to sources and content of article, he is not a half-Azerbaijani.His paternal ancestors were immigrants from Tafresh to Tabriz.Tafresh is a Persian city.His mother is a Persan from Yazd.Immigration does not change origin of a person.He is fully a Persian ethnic.Categry:Iranian people of Azerbaijani descent is completely wrong.Categry:Iranian people of Persian descent is true.--Orartu (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Wikipedia does not work with WP:OR.. assuming his 5th generation is from Ashtiyan, then you would have to prove that every Azeri is also not an immigrant. For example Shahriyar is a Seyyed (meaning his ancestry goes back to Hejaz) but he is an Iranian-Azeri. How about Kasravi? Pishevari (he is a Seyyed). How about Rasulzadeh (he is a Seyyed too). Consequently, if his father for several generations lived in the province, and acquired the language as a native, then that makes the difference. Else DNA-wise, one cannot prove lineage of every Azeri goes back to Oghuz Turks. Furthermore, the stuff with Khamenei being half-Azeri is well sourced. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 11:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is not any pure nation in world,e.g.Persian people of Iran are composed of different ethnics and races.There are enough sources for putting this article in Category:Iranian people of Persian descent too.Then, according to your arguments, members of Pahlavi family could not be considered as Azerbaijanis or even Mazandaranis.Because they acquired the Persian language as a native.--Orartu (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any sources to prove that he is an ethnic Persian ?
  • According to John Murphy, both his parents were Azeri (or Azerbaijanis) (John Murphy, Ali Khamenei, Infobase Publishing, 2007, p. 62.)
  • According to Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East: L to Z, Ali Khamenei, an ethnic Azeri (Jamie Stokes, Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East: L to Z, p. 79.
  • Ayatollah Ali Khamenei born to an Azeri family in Mashhad (Iran Country Study Guide (p. 179.)
  • Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is of Azeri descent (Keith Crane, Rollie Lal, Jeffrey Martini, Iran's political, demographic, and economic vulnerabilities, p. 51.)

Takabeg (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These sites which are mentioned in article too.
  • [www.irdc.ir/fa/content/1024+4734/default.aspx]
  • [www.shia-online.ir/article.asp?id=17262&cat=1 ]

These sites emphasize, his ancestors are originally from Tafresh, which is a Persian city--Orartu (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Khamenei is fluent in Azeri [29] [30] [31]. Does not every Persian may fluent Azerbaijani language. Талех (talk) 12:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He knows Azerbaijani language, because he has lived many years in Tabriz, an Azerbaijani city.--Orartu (talk) 05:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

he was born is mashhad his father was born in najaf he is originally from tafresh can we say that he is azeri? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.56.72.196 (talk) 13:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Persecution of Bahá'ís

An IP editor recently added a paragraph about Khamenei's alleged secret memo ordering discrimination against Bahá'ís. The two references given are:

  • a link to another Wikipedia article, Persecution of Bahá'ís, which itself lacks a credible source for the secret memo claim.

Are there any mainstream sources for this claim? If not, I'm inclined to remove the entire paragraph. I found a UPI article which quotes Heydar Moslehi (who owes his position to Khamemei) rambling about a "Bahá'í-Zionist conspiracy", but nothing directly from Khamenei. I don't think that is strong enough for inclusion in this WP:BLP. Does anybody else have thoughts, or more information from reliable sources? Thundermaker (talk) 02:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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